Talk:Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

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[edit] Numbers unrealistic

The article states that the Nazis employed 2000 troops and lost 1000. 50% losses are not realistic considering the course of action in Warsaw. Either more troops were employed or the losses were lower or both. By the way: What is the basis for the claim of 1000 men lost (300 dead, 700 wounded)?

It's the Jewish estimates I guess. For example the surviving ZOB commander claims a large remote-controlled mine at the gate killed or wounded everyone of the "100-men" column "who came like on a parade" on the first day. But given their lack of weapons (mostly pistols, very few automatic weapons, many armed only with grenades) I guess the German reports might be more believable. They also lost 2 or so French-made tanks from Molotov attacks. I think it should be noted organised resistance collapsed after few days, with ZZW largely escaping the ghetto and ZOB mostly retreating to their bunkers (hidden places) - only to be hunted down along with civilians (who had their own). Of course, they never thought about "winning" in other terms as a "moral victory" maybe.

[edit] Old talk

I posted some bizarre questions about weird stuff, jews bombing allied patrols in Warsaw in 1943, and the ZOB fighting against the Jews. I changed the article, but my comments never made it to the talk page, because some slob made the talk page a redirect, and somehow wikipedia lost my comments, and I cant be bothered to write them again. diff here and here. -Lethe | Talk 15:36, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

The sentence "allied patrols" refers to various auxiliary units (Lithuanian, Ukrainian etc) which worked together with German troops at the time. It is not "Allied patrols", as in British, American etc. Germany also had allies in World War II, you know. Also, "collaborators" here refers to Jews collaborating with the Germans (which some did, to various extent, for example the Jewish police). Balcer 17:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I changed two captions from "German soldiers" and "Wehrmacht soldiers" to "SS men": not in order to deny Wehrmacht involvement in atrocities; only because the photographs do show SS men.

Note about Iwanski: AFAIK Iwanski WAS soldier of AK, from KB unit inside AK military structure. If anon thinks otherwise, please post the sources. Szopen 07:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


I changed the subheading ..in Israel to In Israel. I was not sure of the purpose of the ... but if the ... were there for a reason feel free to put them back. I also wanted to fix the spacing in a few of the sub headings. There is a big gap between where the text starts and the end part. I was not sure how to fix this, so if someone is familar with the formatting of Wikipedia can someone please do it for me? Thanks Flyerhell 07:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Added a sentence in the first paragraph making it clear that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Warsaw Uprising were two different events. Flyerhell 08:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References needed

Regarding my {{unreferenced}} tag, I added it since this article has no references. Further reading and external links are not considered references (if they were used, then please mark them as such) (Wikipedia:Cite_sources#External_links.2FFurther_reading states clearly: The ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed after the references section, and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article. ), thus this article has no references, thus this template is completly justified, and should be removed only if 1) orginal contributor(s) provide references they used 2) other contributors link some key facts with footnotes to references. As 'lack of references' is the most serious objection I hear from many opponents of Wikipedia, I think that it is something that we should address with all our strenght. And please not I am not saying anything about disputability - there is a difference between {{unreferenced}} and {{NPOV}}.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

That's fine with me now. If all our articles had this much references, it would be great. Hmmm... scratch that, if all our articles had three footnotes, we would then start a campaign for 30 or something :) Still, isn't it nice to see our standards improve all the time? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 06:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


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[edit] Polish Police

I removed reference about loses of "Polish police". Could someone deliver any supportive information that such units took part in fightings. I have found this citation by Swedish historian G.S. Paulson that contradicts this information:

The small number of survivors, therefore, is not a direct result of Polish hostility to the Jews. The Jews were deported from the ghettos to the death camps, not by Poles, but by German gendarmes, reinforced by Ukrainian and Baltic auxiliaries, and with the enforced co-operation of the ghetto police. Neither the Polish police nor any group of Polish civilians was involved in the deportations to any significant degree, nor did they staff the death camps. Nor did the fate of the Jews who were taken to their deaths depend to any significant degree on the attitudes and actions of a people from whom they were isolated by brick walls and barbed wire.

The 27,000 Jews in hiding in Warsaw relied on about 50-60,000 people who provided hiding-places and another 20-30,000 who provided other forms of help; on the other hand, blackmailers, police agents, and other actively anti-Jewish elements numbered perhaps 2-3,000, each striking at two or three victims a month. In other words, helpers outnumbered hunters by about 20 or 30 to one. The active helpers of Jews thus made up seven to nine per cent of the population of Warsaw; the Jews themselves, 2.7 per cent; the hunters, perhaps 0.3 per cent; and the whole network-Jews, helpers and hunters-constituted a secret city of at least 100,000: one tenth of the people of Warsaw; more than twice as many as the 40,000 members of the vaunted Polish military underground, the AK [Armia Krajowa or Home Army].

How many people in Poland rescued Jews? Of those that meet Yad Vashem's criteria-perhaps 100,000. Of those that offered minor forms of help-perhaps two or three times as many. Of those who were passively protective-undoubtedly the majority of the population. All these acts, great and small, were necessary to rescue Jews in Poland.[1]

I have expanded the quote anon provided and added an online reference.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Also known?

Changed ...also known as Warsaw Uprising 1943... in the introduction sentence. Warsaw Ghetto Uprising has been know as such in the English language and never as Warsaw Uprising 1943. Most of the internet references to the latter, are to this wikipedia's article and its reprint. See number of references to both in google.com: 278 vs. 104,000. --Ttyre 14:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Good catch - I never noticed this error. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Campaignbox

What about making a Template:Campaignbox for ghetto uprisngs? There were several, after all, and have their own category (Category:Ghetto uprisings)?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gwardia Ludowa

The article currently states that the GL took part in an attempt to breach the walls of the ghetto. Strange thing, but most books I've read recently mention that the GL's actions were invented after the war by the commie propaganda and the only action of the GL was to supply the ŻOB with some 30 pistols or so... Anybody..? //Halibutt 15:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jenin?

I don't think it is worth mentioning the Jenin reference in this article. You could make reference in the Jenin article. Personally, I have not hear or read someone making a connection between the Ghetto Uprising to Jenin. If someone agrees with me, please remove the paragraph. Gadig 13:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I put in the Jenin part.i have heard it mentioned before particularly after the battle.Dermo69

Firstly for future reference, you will need to source your information. "Hearing" it, is not enough. Secondly, If you think it is worth mentioning, it could eventually be added to the Jenin article but not this one since the Ghetto Uprising presides Jenin. Gadig 14:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok but Jenin was very similar to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.How about we comprimise by just putting the battle of Jenin in the See Also part of this article?Dermo69

NO. Get out of here. --HanzoHattori 10:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi victory/German victory

Now it says in the article that this was "Nazi victory". German victory would be better, since officially the name of the nation was Germany, not "Nazi Germany", although it is often used (how about "Commie Soviet Union"?). And Germany deployed more Wehrmacht troops than Waffen-SS troops. Also, in the Warsaw uprising of 1944 article it says German victory, rather than Nazi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising --80.186.100.180 12:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. //Halibutt 02:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Nazi Germany is used to denote a special period of German history just like "Soviet Union" denotes a special period in the history of Russia. So the equivalent of Nazi Germany is Communist Russia or Soviet Union. Btw, the official name was German Reich. 141.13.8.14 13:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation reference needed for this webpage title

At present, there are at least three Wikipedia articles with similar titles:

1) an article called: 'Warsaw Uprising (1794)'
2) this article on the Jewish uprising during WWII: 'Warsaw Ghetto Uprising'
3) another article on the final uprising of WWII: 'Warsaw Uprising'

The current disambiguation page for item #3 above can be cloned and modified for items #1 and 2. It currently reads:

Warsaw Uprising (disambiguation)

Although the best known uprising in Warsaw, Poland, is the armed struggle of 1944, there were
also a number of other struggles to take place there:

Warsaw Uprising (1794), during Kościuszko's Uprising, also known as Insurretion of Warsaw.
Warsaw Uprising (1830), on November 29, an opening stage of the November Uprising.
Warsaw Uprising (1905), sometimes used by historians to denote the
strikes and riots during the Revolution of 1905.
Warsaw Uprising (1943), better known as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
Warsaw Uprising (1944), during the Operation Tempest of the Armia Krajowa.

If you can assist with this editorial change, it would be greatly appreciated -thanks (Zoomeri)

Dear Zoomeri, welcome to Wikipedia. I am afraid I am not following you: what would you like to change? Someting with Warsaw Uprising (disambiguation)? Remember that you can edit articles yourself (although please consider registering first).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Piotrus, Yes I suggest that Warsaw Uprising (disambiguation) pages be provided for all articles related to the various Warsaw Uprisings, for the purpose of better informing readers on Polish history. I understand that I can make the changes myself, but my limited time and wiki programming experience would probably result in a messy implementation which would likely have to be undone. At the moment, I would defer such editing to more experienced members. Thanks -Zoomeri

Ah, I think I understand. You would like each article to include a note like that on Warsaw Uprising, about the existance of the disambiguation page?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Result

I don't know about the "German victory". German victory would be finishing the slaughter without resistance. The uprising, with Ubermenschen making Nazi "supermen" bleed and die on the eyes (in the end) whole world, it was rather a German defeat. It was also never meant to be victorius in a strictly military sense, the possible outcome was only one (destruction of the Ghetto, with or without rising).

Yes, I know "moral victory" sounds dubious, but it was exactly this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by HanzoHattori (talk • contribs).

With all due respect to the resistance fighers, they lost, Germans won. Please find citations for anything else, and this is a military infobox, not moral infobox. Otherwise we can go on and change the result of all German victories to 'German moral defeats' or something :> -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus talk 15:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Except the Germans intended to win (conquer the world, kill the inferior peoples). The Jews intended to die fighting, and they did. Germans were also killed (objective archived). Some Jews even escaped (and then continued killing Germans and some even survived the war). These were primary successes, intended (they never meant to save the ghetto, it was unrealistic). It's much more of a "victory" in moral victory than in, say, the Warsaw Uprising.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by HanzoHattori (talk • contribs).
So the Germans lost the war, but you can't argue that they didn't win some battles. By your logic any battle in which Germans suffered a single casualty or even delay or use of resources can be considered their defeat or victory for the opposing sites. And how can you argue that WGU was more of a defeat for Germans then WU, in which they suffered much higher casualties, I have no idea.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus talk 17:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What I mean, the insurgents did NOT mean to win by a pure military terms. Check the Edelman's memoirs, he states this clearly. In this context, they could lost only if they failed to hurt a single German (the reason was to resist and get some revenge, and they did). It was NOT meant to save the Ghetto, or organise a mass escape of thousands (a small escapes of fighters were dificult enough). On the other hand, the Warsaw Uprising was meant to win, not just kill a lot of Germans (and they were killing Germans in Warsaw daily anyway).

Besides, a victory is archiving the objectives. So what objectives the Jews had to lose - besides resisting the liquidation? Defending the Ghetto until January 17, 1945? Residents breaking out en masse, and Cukierman leading them to Palestine? I don't know, please define.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by HanzoHattori (talk • contribs).

First of all please start signing your own posts. Second, while I agree with you that Jews could hardly aim for a military victory, it is indisputable that they suffered a military defeat, and this is the only kind that matters for the military infobox. If you have relevant sources, you can of course create a section about how this battle is viewed as a Jewish moral victory, although even so I have trouble with the logic which could be used to define Holocaust (of which this uprising was a part of) like this: it was surely a great tragedy, but to call it victory... I can't see it.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus talk 19:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

btw, to add civilians into the range of combatants is a bit overdone for a military infobox. Likewise casualties should list the death toll in the organized groups on an extra account. Now, given a 80% estimate for the side of the Jewish resistance gives a very respectable ratio, especially in the light of availably weaponry - and such a fact serves better as a commemorable statement on the result given the initial target for fighting: "atleast one (German) die with me". They got damn close. A "dealt with" number in the range of tens of thousands civialians had been the plan on the German side anyway, fighting or not. 82.100.247.156 03:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Other Theories

This large section completely disrupts the flow of the article and unnecessarily repeats much of the content. I moved it here, for now. The useful information can be extracted and incorporated into the main article, and the rest discarded. Balcer 17:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

French professor Dr. Robert Faurisson has questioned some aspects of the official version of events of the warsaw ghetto uprising of 1943 such as the number of jewish insurgents and the fact that the Germans constructed the air raid shelters and other bunkers, not the Jewish insurgents

To understand what happened in the Warsaw ghetto in April-May 1943, it is important to know why the Germans decided to launch a police operation. In the city’s 'Jewish quarter' or 'ghetto' were 36,000 officially registered residents, as well as, in all probability, more than 20,000 clandestine inhabitants. The ghetto was, in a sense, a city within a city, administered by a 'Jewish Council' (Judenrat), and a Jewish police force, which collaborated with the German occupation authorities, even against Jewish 'terrorists.' Many thousands of Jewish workers toiled in ghetto workshops and factories, supplying products vital to the German war effort.

Following the first Soviet air attack against central Warsaw on August 21, 1942, bomb shelters were built, on German orders, everywhere in the city, including the ghetto, for the protection of the residents. The Germans furnished the Jews with the cement and other necessary materials for these shelters, which legend has transformed into 'blockhouses' and 'bunkers.' So extensive was this 'network of subterranean refuges and hiding places' that, according to one prominent Holocaust historian, 'in the end, every Jew in the ghetto had his own spot in one of the shelters set up in the central part of the ghetto.'

Small armed Jewish groups, numbering no more than 220 persons, were active. The most important of these was the 'Jewish Combat Organization' (JCO), whose members were mostly young men in their twenties. Its 'general directives for combat' specified 'acts of terror' against the Jewish police, the Jewish Council, and the Werkschutz (protection service for the factories and workshops). This JCO directive stated specifically: 'The general staff works out the central plan of action — sabotage and terror — directed against the enemy.'

Accordingly, these 'fighters' or 'terrorists' used 'sabotage and terror' to shake down Jewish ghetto police, Jewish Council officials, and workshop guards. The 'terrorists' also profited from the ghetto’s intensive industrial and commercial life, shaking down merchants and other residents by threat and blackmail, even holding them prisoner in their homes for ransom. They were able to buy weapons from soldiers stationed in Warsaw, who, like troops stationed elsewhere well behind the front lines, often served in patchwork units, ill-trained and poorly motivated. The ghetto 'terrorists' even carried out murderous attacks against German troops and Jewish collaborators.

The ghetto became increasingly insecure. Because of this, the Polish population became more and more hostile to its existence, while the Germans, for their part, feared that it could become a threat to the city’s important role as a rail nexus in the war economy and as a hub for transport of troops to the Eastern front. Himmler therefore decided to relocate the Jewish population, along with the workshops and factories, to the Lublin region, and to raze the ghetto, replacing it with a park. At first the Germans tried to convince the Jews to voluntarily accept relocation. But the 'terrorists' refused to accept this, aware that such a transfer would mean for them losing, simultaneously, their financial base as well as their freedom of movement. They devoted all their efforts to opposing this, until on April 19, 1943, a police operation to forcibly evacuate the remaining Jews was begun on Himmler’s order.

At 6:00 a.m. that morning, troops under the command of SS Colonel Ferdinand von Sammern-Frankenegg entered the ghetto, supported by a single tracked vehicle (captured during the invasion of France) and two armored cars. Initially the 'terrorists' or guerrillas offered stiff resistance, wounding 16 German SS men, six Ukrainians (so-called 'Askaris'), and two Polish policemen. One Polish policeman was killed.

Himmler, eager to minimize casualties, was angered. That same morning, he relieved von Sammern-Frankenegg of command and replaced him with SS General Jürgen Stroop. Stroop, ordered to carry out the operation slowly to minimize casualties, did so in the following manner: each morning, the troops would enter the ghetto, clear buildings of their residents and use smoke candles (not poison gas) to drive out the Jews hiding in the air-raid shelters; the buildings were destroyed as they were evacuated. Each evening the troops sealed the ghetto so that nobody could escape during the night.

Skirmishes lasted from April 19 to May 16, 1943, so that altogether the operation required 28 days. On the third day, many of the Jewish armed fighters tried to escape, most whom where shot or captured. Contrary to some reports, the German command never called for air support to destroy the ghetto, and the operation involved no aerial bombardment.

The number of Jewish dead is unknown. An often-cited figure of 56,065 is, in fact, the number of Jews who were apprehended. The great majority of these were deported, many to the transit camp at Treblinka from where they were taken to Majdanek (Lublin). German deaths in the operation totalled 16. (This included one Polish policeman.)

One should not doubt either the courage of the Jewish resistance in the ghetto or the tragic nature of the whole affair, with the civilian population trapped in the cross-fire between various heterogeneous German units and small groups of Jewish guerrillas scattered throughout the ghetto. Contrary to some grandiose propaganda claims, though, what took place was far from an 'apocalyptic' revolt, as one writer has recently called it, particularly when one is mindful of the tens of thousands of deaths, civilian and military, that occurred during those same 28 days, on battlefields around the globe and in the European cities bombarded by British and American air forces.

[edit] Jewish police

We are missing an article on this subject. Did they have any specific name, like Judenrat?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Self-reply: from [2]: JUDISCHER ORDNUNGSDIENST (JEWISH GHETTO POLICE, REFERRED TO BY THE JEWS AS THE "JEWISH POLICE"). Plus a photo. So the new question is: which term do we use? Jewish police, Jewish ghetto police or Judischer Ordnungsdienst?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I see we now have a stub at Jewish Ghetto Police. Thanks, HH!-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism?

Under the Background tab, see this section (emphasis added):

"about 300,000 Ghetto residents were sent to the extermination camps and not killed"

I see that an older edit does not have the word "not," suggesting quiet vandalism of this article. I am new to wikipedia and do not feel comfortable going through this article line-by-line, looking for similar errors. Could someone more experienced investigate? Perhaps mark this article as having been vandalized?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Newverbal (talk • contribs).

This article has been very clearly vandalized — i.e. "Borat" in the "Background" section — is there anything we can do about this?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.180.24.195 (talk • contribs).

  • Well, someone removed the "not" and I removed the "Borat" and "Mel Gibson" bits (I don't know how to "revert"). I went through it, but couldn't find anything else (then again, I'm only human). I suppose there is a reason we have pages on our watchlists. Anrie 07:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
If you locate vandalism, go to the history tab, click the date and time of the last non-vandalized article posting, click edit this page when the un-vandalized version pops up, make a note of reverting the vandalism in edit summary, and then save the page. Btl 15:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit has lots of useful info on how to deal with vandalism.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
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