Talk:War of Wrath

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I don't believe the Valar themselves went to Beleriand, Eonwë was their representative. Wording of the article needs to be changed to reflect this. Thu 11:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the Valar feared that their direct involvement (in war) would literary lay waste to too much of Middle-earth, as they had done in the earlier wars, and would therefore not go into battle in person. The War of Wrath was fought with the Elves from Valinor alongside a great Maiar host, for no elf, man or dwarf was said to have the ability to overthrow Morgoth for he was still a Vala, who Mandos himself said could not be defeated by the children of Eru.

The Maiar, however, were of same "stock" as Morgoth and in enough numbers they would have had the ability to overthrow him. And since Beleriand sank under the waves because of the force this conflict wrought, one has to assume that the Elves of Valinor could not have caused all that commotion on their own, nor would Morgoth have any reason or even need to literary smash apart his own foundation of power in Middle-earth at that time, that is to say Angband.

And as a side-note, I believe that in the earlier sketches of the War of Wrath, the Valar did come into battle in person and defeated Morgoth in open combat. Actually I believe it was Tulkas who wrestled Morgoth to the ground and bound him with the great chain. It wasn't put into words in the Silmarillion. It only mentions "The Host of Valinor" with Eonwë as its herald. So in the end it is just speculation, although logical speculation, that there were "just" maiar and elves (with human&dwarven allies from Beleriand) in the Host of Valinor.

Fred26 18:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The Silmarillion definitely mentions the Valar's involvement in the War of Wrath. Hence the drowning of Beleriand. It was Tulkas who wrestled Morgoth, but Aule may have had a part in the application of the chain.

Well I think that is the problem: The silmarillion never mentiones specifically any Valar on location, only Eonwë the Maia. That chain used was reportedly so heavy that 3-4 maiar were required to lift it but at least they were maiar. If we speculate upon what the Silmarillion actually say: it can be argued that if Aule and Tulkas took care of Morgoth personally, they did so after teh actual fighting had ceased. Again we can only speculate since it is not stated anywhere in the Silmarillion, (my version anyways), that Manwë or Tulkas led the armies into battle personally or actually did any fighting. The earlier drafts, mich of which Tolkien would discard from any "finished" product, mentiones the whole tale of Tulkas wrestling Morgoth and literary punching him in the face once they fought their way into Angband, but in that draft Eonwë is the Son of Manwë, a concept Tolkien discarded later and made the Valar and Maiar childless. So only Christopher Tolkien had access to all the materials and had to make the logical reasoning to turn Silmarillion into what it is based on what he learned from his father and his surviving notes. Quite a task I can imagine.

The whole thing is quite a web of tales and sources considering how much material is available and that Christopher Tolkien had to sort out which material on a specific subject was the "final word" made by his Father. I honestly think the Valar were present in one form or another, and as I said above: they most likely helped cause the terrible damage on Beleriand. But the Silmarillion, which is a compiliation by Chris Tolkien of his fathers work, must be given priority over the earlier drafts versions of the War of Wrath. And the Silmarillion section on the War of Wrath simply does not mention the Valar as having taken part in person. Only "Hosts of Valar" which mentions Eonwë, Vanyar Elves, Noldor Elves and human/dwarven allies. Remember, Chris Tolkien had access to ALL the materials of his fathers, and his fathers notes about the different versions and the ones that were the newest. So we can assume all we want here, logical and reasonable as our conclusians may be, we can't have the final word on the subject and the article should reflect this and base its information as it is written in the Silmarillion.

Fred26 14:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

For instance, I just remembered the whole discussion about Orcs and their origins. In the beginnin, J. Tolkien made the Orcs descendants of the Elves, which Morgoth had captured and mutilated, and thus breeding a new race. But! Later he was prone to have the whole concept changed so that the orcs "Forefathers" were actually Mankind as to fit in with the whole uncorruptible spirit of the Elves or something like that. It was never drafted into the Silmarillion though. I don't know if he actually changed his written versions or if he simple talked about it in his now famous "Letters of Tolkien". It is interesting nonetheless.

Fred26 14:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aftermath

First off, Sindar ARE Eldar. All Elves who left Cuiviénen, regardless of wether they made it to Aman or not, are Eldar. The rest are Avari, and these hardly (if at all) appear in the tales. Most of the Silvan Elves were (in theory) Eldar as well: their ancestors mainly were the people of Lenwë/Dan, of whom the most western "tribe" became the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. There is no indication these, or even the Avari, were *not* summoned by Ëonwë after the downfall of the Morgoth. Obviously though most of the Avari would refuse the summons as they never listened to the Valar in the first place (or they would have been Eldar), and most of the Silvan Elves (of remote Telerin stock) loved Middle-earth too much and had not been involved in the war so if they heard the summons at all, likely would have refused. As a minor edit I have replaced Elrond as a notable "stayer" with Gil-galad: Elrond's promincence only started in the Second Age. And he isn't fully Elven anyway. Gil-galad, as the last Ñoldorin prince and "highest" Elf in Middle-earth after Galadriel is far more important and should be mentioned instead. -- Jordi·✆ 22:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Course of the War

Sorry about such a huge reversion, but all this guesswork shouldn't be in an article. See WP:NOR. The problem is the synthesis of material and reasoning from it in a speculative way, giving numbers where the only source available did not.

Vol II of HoME can't be used as a source really, except for articles about that stage of the mythology's development. "Lost Tales" is far too primitive to be reliable for the later mythology, and we have no reason to think that Tolkien retained these details of the battle. (Not that I remember this bit in the book off the top of my head, but that's what was cited for the major points. It's been a while since I last looked at it.) In any event, mixing-and-matching information from that stage with information from later stages doesn't work, as they're often incompatible. For example, you obviously had to decide to use Eönwë rather than Fionwë even though your source material doesn't have that first name.

Some of it can be preserved, without the original work, as a description of the War of Wrath as originally conceived and clearly described as such, but not as the "one true" course of events.

Please don't use level 1 headers in articles (Like this: =Header text=). Headers for article sections should be no higher than level 2 (==Header text==). See Help:Section#Creation and numbering of sections.

Horizontal lines in articles are deprecated, so please don't use them. They add unnecessary clutter. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks for your input but what you see is not guesswork. The approach to History of Middle-earth is an inclusive one in which aspects that are not contradicted in the later stories is included and used to clarify that which was compressed in the Silmarillion. Previously, before the additions I made, the original text of the article was basically a fan's rewrite of the passages in the Silmarillion which anyone can read in the book. The numbers are derived from numerical statements made by Tolkien all along and statements of ratios and I was still developing the references. Vol. II is cited for a couple of obscure points not as the main source - I was still in the middle of it. Don't mind the layout changes as I'm new to wiki. and am sometimes at a loss as to how to format.

Tttom1 05:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Tttom

Well, that's one approach, but when you do that you create a synthesis that doesn't reflect any stage in Tolkien's thinking on the subject but is rather your own work. On what grounds are you using this approach?

And I'm sorry, but I don't recall Tolkien mentioning any specific numbers. He made a couple of vague numerical references in an allusive or poetic way, but you can't really use those to derive troop counts.

Again, please don't use horizontal lines. You only see them in older talk pages from before the current Wikipedia syntax was developed. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

For developing significant chunks of article like this, especially if it's going to be in a seriously disordered state for a time, a better approach is to write the material in your userspace and then paste it into the article when complete. You can create subdirectories like so: User:Tttom/Sandbox If you click on that link, and then on the "Start the page" link, you'll create a new file under your User page where you can experiment all you like until you end up with something satisfactory. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of flame wars and while wiki says 'be bold' leaving the earlier text such as in this article and working from the outside may soothe other writer and prevent a wholesale deletion reaction.

I see those lines everywhere in wiki, graphically to me, they're no big deal. I was using them to distingush very different areas, I thought. e.g. 'etymology' or lists. But I have no particular attachment to them. There seems to be alot of confusion of 'mode' in Tolk articles where interior, in universe history is confused with exterior, literary development history sometimes in the same sentence, with little or nothing separating them, not even a line.

Years ago I did an extensive study on Elves' Houses and Kindreds published in Mythlore magazine and one on Orc armies and hosts published in Parma Eldalamberon magazine, if I recall. Plenty of numbers and ratios are present throughout and the books released since then, like HoMe X, XI, XII support the estimates with new info - such as clear ratio statements by Tolkien in XI Quendi and Eldar p.381 where the proportions of the Elven clans are given - "According to Noldorin historians the proportions..." would be the authoritative quote from which to draw estimates.

SOME NUMBERS: Silmarillion, p.190," Turgon...ten thousand strong" and elsewhere; reference point ratio: Sil. p.193 "assailed by a foe thrice greater..."History of Middle-earth, Vol. XII, p.307, " Beor...having no more...than two thousand full-grown men..."; "three hosts of the Folk of Hador...each host was as great as all the Folk of Beor..."; "probably more numerous than the Folk of Beor...the Folk of Haleth...". see History of Middle-earth, Vol. XI, p.219, "...after some fifty years many thousands had entered the lands of the kings."The History of Middle-earth, Vol. IV, p.302, "There came afresh a hundred thousand Orcs..."; Vol. V, p.137, "a hundred thousand Orcs"

Is the article you reverted to not a fan's rewrite of the actual passage and therefore their own work? Does such a rehash reflect author's thinking, or reader's thinking? I have read the, ahem, canonicity section. Years ago I was part of the linguistic community (E.L.F.) wherein this debate is pretty hot. The approach I use the one in which if the earlier statements are not in contradiction to later ones, they made be used judiciously, reasonably and with common sense. Fionwe>Eonwe is a clear change by Tolk, (granted, if Tolk. lived to 100 he probably would have changed that again). Others are less clear, e.g. if Noldorin & gnomes are said in vol II to have been defeated in Tasarinan during that account of the war of wrath but Noldorin, a Vala, is removed in later accounts (as it is clearly stated the Valar did not come to M.e. for WoW) do we eliminate the whole episode? On what basis? We know gnomes=Noldor; we know Qenya: Tasarinan=Quenya: Tasarinan; we know Q.: Tasarinan=N.Nan-tathren= Sindarin:Nan-tathren, we can suppose 36 years of fighting still included a setback in the Vale of Willows (and we can suppose, judiciously, reasonably and with common sense, because in Vol. II Tolkien said it happened and never subsequently said it didn't). Why not mention it?

Tttom1 15:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Tttom

We don't do flamewars here.

I'm not going to dispute this subject with you, as its really beside the point. The kind of work you're describing, based on assumptions and figures tangential to the subject at hand and working forward from there to create a synthesis based on a work of fiction and presenting it as a canonical portion of that work, is the kind of original research contrary to Wikipedia policy. Even moreso when it's written in an "in-universe" style and not as a presentation of a fictional world. As I said, if you want to trace the evolution of Tolkien's depiction and thought on this war as evident from what he wrote about it, that's a perfectly suitable subject. But not as it was. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't do flame wars - I don't do flame wars. I get your point on presenting interpretation as canonical. I never intended it to be seen as 'canon'. I intended to get readers to read the other books and think about how much those books say, they should be read as well. Frankly, I can't even understand that concept for this kind of fiction in-universe, or ex-universe. I think you're right that presenting the evolution of text may be the way to go for this, ex-universe. I'll try reworking that info in that light. Thanks for kicking it around with me.Tttom1 01:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)Tttom

TCC is right to say that you need to avoid repackaging and presenting the material in your own way, no matter how correct it might seem. Presenting the evolution of the text over time is about the only way this sort of thing can be done. First say which HoME volume, and then, if possible, say when Tolkien wrote it. Then, if you can find work by others interpreting this, then state their interpretation and give a reference (eg. Mallorn, Mythlore, Christopher Tolkien's notes in HoME, etc). But make clear that even Christopher Tolkien's notes are no more than his interpretation - in some cases it is not possible to say with any certainty what Tolkien intended, then, or in the light of later work. Carcharoth 17:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course he is right about repackaging. And that applies to the article as reverted to as well, which as it now stands, is a fan repackaging of the prose used in the Sil. - why isn't that deleted? I worked solely from Tolkien's own statements, and was footnoting the relevant statement, about this over time to show what they seem to mean. I can't say I entirely agree that 'original thoughts' constitutes the forbidden 'original work', especially where the only source is the original author. As I said above, I am rewriting in an ex-universe format. Please don't mistake a compressed tone here for combativeness, it isn't. I would appreciate your response to this: in LotR appdx B, p.363, it says: "The First Age ended with the Great Battle in which the Host of Valinor broke and overthrew Morgoth.". If I then write: 'The Host of Valinor was larger than any other host of Elves and Men' and to support that I cite in a footnote the comparison to it in Sil. p.293 to that of the Last Alliance- is my conclusion 'original work' because I think the words 'none greater' indicate that the Host of Valinor was the 'biggest' of all the hosts of Elves & Men'? Tttom1 20:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Tttom

The quote you mention appears to be: "It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim." (Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) - my opinion is that in this article we need to quote all relevant mentions of the War Wrath. Like Elrond's mention comparison of the Last Alliance host with the War of Wrath host at the Council of Elrond: "I remember well the splendour of their banners [...] It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.". On a personal level, the similarities between these passages is interesting, but edges towards original material, which is a step too far for a Wikipedia article. Carcharoth 22:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

How about the way I've expanded the lead section, in this edit? Carcharoth 22:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine, but is front heavy on ex-universe links and facts better dealt with in footnotes. I'll do one feel free to adjust. TttomTttom1 23:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

"On a personal level, the similarities between these passages is interesting, but edges towards original material, which is a step too far for a Wikipedia article." hmmm...From original research "Original research refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source." The passages are fully attributable from a reliable published source - the LotR itself. "Editors may make straightforward mathematical calculations or logical deductions based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source". I think its a logical deduction, fully attributable, to say that the Host of Valinor is largest host of Elves an Men to have been gathered in M.e. based of those 2 quotes and it neither changes the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source.

As I mentioned above I wrote an article some 20 years ago that was a study of Elven population in the FA in Mythlore No. 51 Vol 14, its the magazine of the Mythopoeic Society. Does that satisfy: "if you can find work by others interpreting this, then state their interpretation and give a reference (eg. Mallorn, Mythlore, Christopher Tolkien's notes in HoME, etc)" TttomTttom1 00:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to reference a Mythlore article. The trouble you will encounter with some people regarding Mythlore and Mallorn is that they are really fanzines, not peer-reviewed journals, but I personally don't have a problem with you referencing such articles. I had a quick look at what you wrote earlier that got reverted, and my general impression was that the references were good, but the text you added to the article was not really encyclopedic - remember, this is an encyclopedia, not Mythlore or Mallorn. Talking about what others have said is fine, but reproducing what they said isn't. A list of numbers doesn't really add much to the article unless you make it a lot clearer what the provenance of those numbers is - and when it comes down to it, it is really opinion, and that violates the 'balance' criteria of WP:NPOV - clear statements about what Tolkien wrote are more important than promoting what was written 20 years ago in an article in Mythlore. The Mythlore article probably warrants no more than a footnote in the article. I've written similar articles myself, but I wouldn't actually reference them in a Wikipedia article. I'd stick to referencing the 'primary' sources of Tolkien's works. Carcharoth 01:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as my comment about the similarities of the passages goes, that was something I spotted just then, and was nothing to do with the "battle numbers" you were talking about. Let me explain. Compare the two quotes in detail: "It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim." and "I remember well the splendour of their banners [...] It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so." - the bits they have in common are:

• The hosts described as "fairer than" versus "so fair" and "splendid in arms" versus "splendour of their banners".
• The words "host" and "assembled", and the reference to "Thangorodrim".
• The overall meaning of the passages is very similar.

The point here is that I am looking at the two passages from a historical perspective regarding Tolkien's history as a writer. Tolkien wrote one of these passages before the other one, and if possible it would be nice to find out which he wrote first. The similarities in the phrasings suggest that one is a variant on the other. There are other examples of this in Tolkien's writings, where he 'recycles' passages (to put it crudely). The reasons for this are probably manifold, both to replicate the sense of history being handed down within Middle-earth, the related conceit that Tolkien's books are compiled from different sources and traditions, and Tolkien as an author referring to previous passages to maintain internal consistency as an author, but changing the phrasing to suit different contexts (an aesthetic matter for an author). I hope this makes clear my comment that this is something outside of the scope of Wikipedia. Carcharoth 01:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. You said: I'll do one feel free to adjust. The way you footnoted what I wrote was perfect. Thanks for that! :-) I'm very happy now with the introduction. Do you think we could try and promote this style over the "in J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium" style? I think it is much better to spend a few footnoted sentences in an article's lead section setting the context for those who aren't aware of the dates (and let's face it, most readers of Wikipedia won't be aware of the dates of composition of much of the material), and onyl then launch the reader into a "story-internal" persepctive? By the way, you might also want to have a look at WP:WAF to see how Wikipedia in general approaches this kind of thing. I'm also going to raise this issue of style at the WikiProject talk page, which I think you are already aware of. Carcharoth 01:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

On the footnoting; thanks, glad you like it, my own feeling is footnotes keep the text clearer and moving and will allow a smoother segue into a more acceptable in-universe stance to wiki and Tolk fans. I just reread the fiction/style and leads like that should do. I brought up Mythlore as its a cut above the others in the SF/Fantasy community, at least it was. I'm not interested in self promoting Just want to use it when its relevant. Back then I worked on a number of mags - Parma Eldalamberon (which publishes, by estate permission, alot of Tolkien's linguistics material) and Vinyan Tengwar which also has had a working relationship with C. Tolkien, others too. Before long the linguistics got too tough for this artist, a lot of the original gang got very good at it and still do it.

As to dates of those lines, don't know offhand - think 2nd age falls in after 3rd age writings begin? Elrond line resonates better, for me, but that doesn't mean its later. CT's HoMe does show that JRR can peak and go right past it now and then. TttomTttom1 05:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Once again

Look, we cannot base this on very old material as if it represented Tolkien's final intentions or the way he ultimately meant to tell the story. You only have to compare the story of Tûr in Lost Tales to the incomplete developed "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" in Unfinished Tales to see how Tolkien's ideas changed. We aren't free to make these kind of assumptions. Nor are we free to base parts of an article on surmise, no matter how reasonable it seems. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your diligence, but you must be selective in your deletions. If you think vol II is too old that's one thing. To delete it all is excessive and I'm going to have to ask you to restore it. You have not made any case for what you consider canon on this nor have you responded to my questions as to the content of this article as written. I changed layout as per your suggestions and left out what you considered 'original work' I think the balance falls within wiki guidelines.Tttom1 21:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)