Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dodd middle school

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Article Dodd Middle School was listed on WP:VFD July 5 to July 12 2004, rough consensus was to delete (10 delete, 5 keep, 2 anon votes). Discussion:

Middle schools are out, right (with the possible exception of Dragon School). Dunc_Harris|☺16:17, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• What do you mean out? I created the article! (I believe added 16:29, 5 Jul 2004 by anon User:68.14.69.24, talk contribs.

• Delete: Middle schools are out. It would have to be a terribly singular middle school to make it (maybe Horace Mann, but probably not). And then there's my constant gripe about naming. Geogre 17:33, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Sorry, we don't have articles on middle schools or primary school (except, of course, Battle School). Delete. Best wishes, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 17:39, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Kiss it goodbye. - Lucky 6.9 18:14, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Middle schools are in. Keep. anthony (see warning)
• Keep if not a copyvio. Someone explain to me the logic of keeping all high schools but deleting all middle schools. There would be more logic in requiring a certain number of students and/or a certain number of years in existence (and therefore a certain number of total students over the course of time). This school, however, has over 800 students and 45 years of history, in both respects more than many high schools. Everyking 21:17, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The logical position is to include only notable schools. However, whenever deleting a non-notable high school is proposed, people object; you object consistently. Some of us hoped that allowing high schools would be a reasonable compromise that would avoid the need for lengthy VfD discussions. Dpbsmith 23:35, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thousands of people have attended this school! If a school has only a few hundred students and has only existed for a few years, I might agree with deletion, but this is of great importance to the lives of thousands of people. Everyking 00:27, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Of course you should only include notable schools. This is essentially the definition of notable (worthy of note). We include all high schools, because all high schools are notable, by the fact that they are high schools. anthony (see warning)

• Comment: Sounds like my old elementary school. Please, can we just draw the line at high schools? Or, at least set minimum inclusion rules? I can just see this site overwhelmed with kiddie-wiki from students given an assignment to write about their school. - Lucky 6.9 21:22, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: If there were to be a criterion set up, I would nominate that it not be numbers, or years, but significance. I'm sure that, given just the population, PS 1 in NYC will have terribly famous alumni, but is the school itself notable? Thus, the first all-gay high school, just now in creation, would be significant, but Plan B City High would not, despite having graduated Richard Nixon, Pat Boone, and Ellie Mae Clampet. That's if there were a criterion other than high schools stay and middle/elementary schools go. Geogre 21:58, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Also, towns (and I get frustrated with them, too) are different from middle and high schools in that they will have historical significances, connections to nearby schools, places in biographies, etc. Perhaps Manassas, VA would have been considered insignificant in 1970, but now significant, and always historically so. St. Mary's, GA seems insignificant now, but in the Revolutionary War, it wasn't. I don't see public schools having anything like this import, and especially not with primary schools. If there is a reason to believe that the school does something notable (teaches without walls, was the first that had no curriculum, etc.) that would make it forever necessary information for knowing the town or pupils, yes. Otherwise, look at how primary schools are treated in history and biography texts. Geogre 13:07, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Delete. I perceive no valid reason to include this particular article about this particluar school in Wikipedia. Dpbsmith 23:35, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Delete: no evidence of notability. Wile E. Heresiarch 23:41, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. There's no reason to draw the line at middle schools. Ambivalenthysteria 02:01, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Wrong side of the line. SWAdair | Talk 04:11, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Agree with Dpbsmith. Just because something affected thousands of people, that doesn't mean it's important. Otherwise we'd be including articles on individual grocery stores and McDonald's franchise locations. "This Kroger store stocks tomatillos and is located in a shopping center with a Bed Bath & Beyond." Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:23, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • But surely you can agree that schools affect their students quite a bit more than grocery stores affect their customers? Everyking 05:59, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Sure, a middle school has more personal impact. The important part is that they are all essentially the same. A single article could cover all of the actual substance of most articles on schools, including this one. There's nothing here that provides it with any meaningful separation from any other middle school. Take out the utterly generic bits and you're left with an address, the name of the principal, and two sentences on where it got its uninspired name. -- Cyrius|✎ 06:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • There's also school colors, school nickname, the fact that it is a blue ribbon school, the name of the assistant principal, and school hours. It's a lot more interesting than many of the articles on US cities, many of which incidently affect fewer people. anthony (see warning)
• I'm sitting on the fence about schools right now. However for any text to be viable long term in Wikipedia it has to enyclopedic and maintained. This article - apart from needing a major rewrite - contains too much detail which will be outdated in a few months; who will maintain this level of detail? I would rather see a short "stubby" entry (xxx School, located in Hicksville, USA, was founded in 1940 by Reginald Scrubbins and is part of Gardez L'Eau School District) and a link to the school's own site (if it has one), which will probably be maintained with more energy. Also, the title should more descriptive, "Dodd Middle School, Cheshire, Connecticut" Ianb 06:55, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • I've cleaned the text up significantly. There is still a bit of outdatable information, though, which I have prefixed with "as of 2004". anthony (see warning)

• Delete: If there were entries for every school in every town in every country in the world ... Noisy 13:37, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • ...then we'd have the most comprehensive encyclopedia ever. Your point? anthony (see warning)
    • You won't mind me creating an entry for every atom in the fingernail on my left little finger, then? ;-) Seriously, for a catalogue of individual schools, surely it would be more appropriate to start a separate SchoolWiki, after the fashion of the EvoWiki where individual schools can advertise their history, curricula and achievements. Noisy 14:42, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • I don't see why we need to create a whole new wiki just to put encyclopedia articles on schools. anthony (see warning)
• Comment: There are a few good reasons I could run past you. For example, a paper encyclopedia would never include these. And yes, I know this isn't paper. Also, most schools in this day and age have their own websites. Why mirror them here? Also, please refer back to the reasons I've already given. Besides, a separate wiki site that schools could access to their hearts' content is a fabulous idea. It would certainly be more useful than listing them here. - Lucky 6.9 22:58, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Delete - Tεxτurε 03:21, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Keep! You mean the fictitious Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is allowed, but not a real middle school!? Heheh. As long as it's a decent article (not "ABC School is a middle school in ABC City, ABC State, ABC Country") I don't see why it shouldn't be included. Maybe this school does have a history. Just because it's not in a feature film does not mean it's not worthy! newkai 11:43, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Ah, well, that's an interesting point. You say "ABC School is a middle school in ABC City, ABC State, ABC Country" won't do, and I agree. But the school would still affect the same "thousands of people" that Everyking and anthony evince as a reason for keeping such articles. My own feeling is that it is reasonable to insist that article on local interest topics should be detailed, circumstantial, colorful, and well-written on first insertion. That is, there are some situations in which stub articles are useful because they are likely to serve as a nucleus around which larger articles will crystallize, and some in which they are not useful. I would have to say that Dodd middle school is more than a stub, but I don't honestly feel that it conveys very much to anyone who isn't an alum and I doubt that it is rich enough in detail to give an alum warm fuzzies, either. With, say, a photo of the school, and a scan of the cover of the student magazine I'd vote keep. What does need to be weighed in the balance is that disk space is cheap, and also that a useless article that nobody ever reads does not do much harm to Wikipedia. People judge Wikipedia on the basis of the specific articles they look up. In case that's too even handed to interpret, I still vote to delete. Just thinking out loud about the basis on which I made this decision. Dpbsmith 00:38, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Notability. This is not a hard concept to understand. Nothing in this article suggests that this school is notable. So Delete. People need to think before they write though, there certainly are notable middle schools, such as Eaglebrook School, the national "Schools to Watch" http://www.mgforum.org/Improvingschools/STW/STWbackground.htm of the Middle School movement, and Greenwich Country Day School.
• Keep - It's Blue Ribbon School (no idea what that is yet). Student and staff design capacity would better then current student and staff size (constants are easier to maintain then variables). --Buster 07:35, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC) (Vote moved here from vfd main space by Graham ☺ | Talk)