Talk:Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Serbian Voivodship 1.1 Serbian Voivodship and Tamiš Banate (at most) 2 Flag and Coat of arms 3 Question 4 Josip Šokčević 5 On the question of memorandum that I wrote 6 On the question of archival standards

[edit] Serbian Voivodship

Shouldn't the name of the article be Serbian Voivodship (Srpska vojvodina)? Also, census?:) From where?:) Ceha

---

No, because Serbian Voivodship is another province that existed before this one. The official name of this province was "Voivodship of Serbia", thus the sources which mention it as "Serbian Voivodship" obviously do not understand the difference between the two. As for census results, I have them in two books:

• 1. Sima M. Ćirković, Srbi među evropskim narodima, Beograd, 2004.
• 2. Dr Dušan J. Popović, Srbi u Vojvodini, knjiga 3, Novi Sad, 1990.

PANONIAN (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian Voivodship and Tamiš Banate (at most)

Why you opstructed the user Ceha. He didn't say Serbian Vojvodovina or Serbian Vojvodina, he said Serbian Voivodship (Voivodeship). That is a big difference.

Proofs ARCHIVAL FONDS OF THE ARCHIVES OF VOJVODINA IN NOVI SAD - WHERE YOU LIVE:

• Archival collection (fond) No. 23 - Zemaljska uprava za Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat (Landesverwaltung der Serbischen Woiwodschaft und des Temescher Banats) - Temišvar (1849-1861), English translation Lands administration for the Serb Voivodship and Temescher Banate or in the better spirit of the language Administration of the land for the Serbian Voivodship and Temescher Banate.

• Archival collection (fond) No. 24 - Zemaljska građevinska uprava za Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat (Landesbau - Direktion für die Serbische Woiwodschaft und das Temescher Banat) - Temišvar (1850-1861) Building administration of the land for the Serb Voivodship and of Temescher Banate.

• Archival collection (fond) No. 22 - Zemaljska školska uprava za Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat (K. und K. Landesschulverwaltung für die Serbische Woiwodschaft und das Temescher Banat) - Temišvar (1851-1855) School administration of the land for the Serb Voivodship and of Temescher Banate.

All of the archival materials are in written in German language, I mean official documents. They are not hear-say, and they are very well preserved to last for a dozen centuries. This is a very long time. Imbris 01:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

First, speak in your own name, not in the name of other users. Second, I already told you that it is nothing but a forgery to present ONLY those documents that use name Serbian Voivodship and NOT TO present those that use name Voivodship of Serbia. Since both kind of documents obviously exist, why you do not search in archive for other documents? (I really want to know your answer). PANONIAN (talk) 09:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I have every right to mention someones contributions to the debate, even if those contributions were made before the debate even started. This shows how you work. Ceha may have not known the fact so YOU were able to dismiss him and his (or her's) contributions. Archives do not create fonds - Archives receive documenation and in accordance to international norms for archival description only describe what they have received. Do not portlay false that archives consist of a few (if memory serves me well - YOU mentioned only two documents). On the other hand I have proven that I am not disruptive and waited but this have gone far enough, limit has been reached. In a few days I will have the book written by the archivist of Archives of Vojvodina - Tadija Grosinger - in it I hope to find some facsimiles of documents that I will post as links here. I expect that you will folow thruogh and correct what you have written (on the basis of books) wrong. I expect that you will have the strength and objectivity to understand that even if you have collaborative book and simmilar materials this doesn't mean that those information are correct. Documents are correct. -- Imbris 18:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you have no right to speak in the name of other users exactly because YOU DO NOT KNOW what those users know or think, so just let them to speak in their name. It is not good to speak about user Ceha if he is not here. Second, you are in fact proved that you are indeed disruptive and that you goal here is to push your POV no matter what sources say and I presented several sources for you that use name Voivodship of Serbia, so what you want more? Regarding archives, the last thing that Wikipedia need is YOU to say what archieves have and what have not - much more relevant persons (historians like D. Popović, S. Ćirković and others) used those archieves and wrotte their books based on those documents and you have no right to dispute what they presented in those books. End of story. And I will tell you this: as long as name Voivodship of Serbia can be found in those books, it will be also found in Wikipedia no matter what one Greater Croatian Serbophobic anti-Serbian and anti-Vojvodinian nationalist like you say. It is time for you to find other place to heal your frustrations. PANONIAN (talk) 20:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag and Coat of arms

We now really have problem with this. First somebody added this flag to the article (and I really suspect that this is in fact flag of the Serbian Voivodship, and not of the Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat), and then somebody described this flag in the text. Can somebody say what is a source that claim that this was flag of this Voivodship, and not of the previous one (the Serbian Voivodship)? People very easy confound these two and I think that it is the case here too. PANONIAN (talk) 11:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I am afraid it was me. I removed the whole article and pushed it to the Serbian Voivodship. You were right, Pannonian. I named the source, it was a Leksiklopedia article from TV Novosti from 1991. I do not know the exact number of issue, because I cut it from the magazine. One of the flags of this design is kept, I believe in Sombor museum or so, and has the Cyrillic inscription "For the Emperor and Motherland - the Sombor Volunteers". This was also the model for the war flags in 1848 Revolution. Sorry for the mess, now itćs on the right place. Me and Željko Heimer also made a copy of the flag and we are trying to put it on the FOTW site. He is the leading vexillologist in the Southeastern Europe. Zhix 23:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but you also should to write image source on the image page itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SrpskaVojvodina400px.jpg You also should to writte what is copyright status of the image (Is it permited that image could be used on Wikipedia or not). If you do not specify these things, the image will be probably deleted. PANONIAN (talk) 00:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Were Serbs a minority in this entity?

Is its border connected to the border of Serbian Vojvodina? For it seems as if either this one does not include Baranja, or the map of Serbian Vojvodina on its article is far too skechy. --PaxEquilibrium 21:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, HRE, if you read both articles, this one and Serbian Vojvodina, you will find there all answers. Those were two different political entities with different borders. Serbian Vojvodina included Baranja and Military Frontier, while Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat did not. Also, Serbian Vojvodina did not included east and central Banat inhabited mainly by Romanians and Germans and Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat included it. You have here also demographics section, so you can see that it is questionable whether Serbs were majority in Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat or not. If you count Orthodox Serbs only (without Bunjevci and Šokci, who were considered a Catholic Serbs in many sources), then number of Serbs was smaller than the number of Romanians in Germans, but if you count Serbs together with Bunjevci and Šokci, then they were relative majority in the province. PANONIAN (talk) 16:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Josip Šokčević

Look at Book by an Vojvodinian. There he wrote who Josip Šokčević were in regards of the history of Serb Voivodship and Temeser Bannat. Do not edit something just because you do not know or have no proff in your library. Trere are much, much more book in libraries of everyone of us, your library is not THE LAW. Imbris 23:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it is very nice that you use sources that could be confirmed - my source mention name Josif, but I am fine with both names. And just a small observation, did you noticed that "your" source in fact mention name Vojvodship of Serbia instead Serb Voivodship, but you just do not want to say word Serbia, do you? PANONIAN (talk) 13:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The word Serbia means nothing bad or good to me. I am interested in the truth. In the debate about the name of Josip Šokčević you should refrain yourself from commenting other debates. And for the conclusion, it was I who told you of the "source" if it even could call it a source. Publications are not definite sources, and most certain ones written by only three persons who do not cite documents. Your debates are fruitless and when The Archives of Vojvodina publich the list of its fonds and the name Serb Voivodship and Tamiš Banat appears the title of your article Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat is history, it is gone. As well will the mentioning of the name Voivodship of Serbia and Tamiš Banat in the majority of cases, except from the case of TRIVIA. Imbris 20:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Debate about name of Josip Šokčević is over because I really do not care was he Josip or Josif - it is irrelevant. However, the name of the Voivodship of Serbia is not irrelevant and name used in Wikipedia should be same name that is used in most history books. Regarding documents from the archives, do not think that they can help you to falsify history and push your POV. For example, if archive have two documents, one of them using name Voivodship of Serbia and another using name Serbian Voivodship, it is easy for you to make a forgery if you present only one of those documents which use name Serbian Voivodship, but if you do not present another one that use name Voivodship of Serbia, and exactly that you said that you will do: you said that you will ask archive of Vojvodina what is historical base for usage of name Serbian Voivodship, but you DID NOT SAID that you will ask them what is base for usage of other name. In another words, only if you ask archive what is base for usage of BOTH NAMES, then you can have valid answer from them. So, if you ask me, name Voivodship of Serbia should be used here as long as it is used in most of the historical books and you really should stop your ridiculous attempts to delete or twist Serbian history. PANONIAN (talk) 23:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the question of memorandum that I wrote

XXXXXX, 9. mart 2007.

Republika Srbija

Autonomna Pokrajina Vojvodina

Arhiv Vojvodine

Dunavska 35

RS-21000 Novi Sad

E-pošta: info@arhivvojvodine.org.yu

Faksimil: +381 (0)21 522 332

Predmet: Točnost naziva Vojvodstvo Srbija i Tamiški Banat

Vrlo poštovani!

      Molio bi Vas da mi odgovorite na nekoliko pitanja. Kao prvo, da je zvaničan naziv fonda koji se pretpostavljam još uvek čuva u Vašoj arhivskoj instituciji, Zemaljska uprava za srpsko vojvodstvo i tamiški Banat.

      Ako je tako onda bih vas lepo molio da mi odgovorite kojim se imenom u fondu najčešće imentuje krunska zemlja Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat u delu koji se odnosi na reči Srpsko Vojvodstvo? Znam da je često korišćen u to vreme naziv serbska Vojvodovina, ali time se zapravo ne bavim. Hoću reći, je li češće bilo Srpsko Vojvodstvo, Vojvodstvo Srpsko, ili možda danas od nekih “danas” korišćen pojam Vojvodstvo Srbija.

      Ne znam šta bi Vam trebao da Vam kažem iz kojih me to razloga zanima, ali Vas uveravam da nije vezano s imovnom koristi.

      Druga tema je Srpska Vojvodina (1848-49) za koju znam da se koristi i ime Vojvodina Srpska. Bez obzira što se u to vreme verovatno koristilo, kao i u gornjem pitanju reči serbska Vojvodovina odnosno Vojvodovina serbska. Opetujem pitanje, da li češće bilo Srpska Vojvodina (Vojvodovina) ili Vojvodina (Vojvodovina) Srpska ili možda danas od nekih korišćen pojam Vojvodina Srbija.

      Da li se u arhivskim materijalima ijednom pojavilo ime Vojvodstvo Srbija (1849-60) odnosno ime Vojvodina Srbija (1848-49) ili su to samo sadašnji termini?

      Ako se jeste pojavilo kolika je bila brojnost tih pojava i da li su bile zvanične naravi ili su to bili potpuno nezvanični termini, retki slučajevi.

      Kad to pitam ne mislim na titulu Velikog Vojvode Vojvodstva Srbije koju je imao Austrijski car sve do kraja Austro-Ugarske monarhije. U originalu na Nemačkom Grosswojwod der Wojwodschaft Serbien. Da li ima ikakve veze između titule Austrijskog cara i termina kojim se u dokumentima označuje samo Vojvodstvo. Nemački naziv za Vojvodstvo bio je Die serbische Wojwodschaft und das Temeser Banat.

      Ako je Vojvodstvo krunska zemlja i ako je naziv titule različit onda nema razloga da se danas govori o Vojvodstvu Srbije i nekakvoj Austrijskoj Srbiji. Srbija nikad nije bila Austrijska, već su Austrijanci manipulisali njome te izvršili okupaciju nad njom tri puta u 18. veku.

      Pronašao sam jednom naziv Vojvodstvo Srbija i to u knjizi Dr. Dušana J. Popovića (1990) Srbi u Vojvodini, knjiga treća, strana 306., pa sam pomislio u sebi da takva veličina u istoriografiji može da počini takvu grešku. Slično je i u brošuri “Koliko se poznajemo?”. Izdavač brošure je Izvršno veće Autonomne Pokrajine Vojvodine, a autori su Milan Micić, mr Tibor Pál i Kalman Kuntić. Bio je to projekat “Afirmacija multikulturalizma i tolerancije u Vojvodini” sada raspoloživ na mrežnom mestu Interneta Službe za opšte i zajedničke poslove pokrajinskih organa Autonomne Pokrajine Vojvodine.

      Molim Vas da na ova pitanja odgovorite zbog Vas samih, jer arhivskim institucijama je prosvetna delatnost jedna od značajnih. Predlažem da kraćenu informaciju publikujete na mrežnom mestu Interneta Arhiva Vojvodine, da ceo svet vidi i čuje, da se napokon znade. Još sam se setio da Vas molim ako biste mogli da mi date i sadašnju signaturu fonda, mislim matični broj.

      Unapred zahvaljujem na odgovoru koji se nadam primiti na adresu elektroničke pošte, jer obična pošta nije bezbedan način dostave.

            Sa poštovanjem!

XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX, s. r.

Imbris 18:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHA. E jedva čekam da vidim šta će ti odgovoriti. Naravno, ne boj se, ja ću veoma dobro znati da li su ti stvarno odgovorili ili si sam napisao odgovor... PANONIAN (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

This memo shows that I am not what you say I am. On the other hand it is clear that you are not what you say you are. Laugh on. You should be ashamed of your self. The answer came and it is:

• Archival collection (fond) No. 23 - Zemaljska uprava za Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat (Landesverwaltung der Serbischen Woiwodschaft und des Temescher Banats) - Temišvar (1849-1861), English translation Lands administration for the Serb Voivodship and Temescher Banate or in the better spirit of the language Administration of the land for the Serbian Voivodship and Temescher Banate.
• Archival collection (fond) No. 24 - Zemaljska građevinska uprava za Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat (Landesbau - Direktion für die Serbische Woiwodschaft und das Temescher Banat) - Temišvar (1850-1861) Building administration of the land for the Serb Voivodship and of Temescher Banate.
• Archival collection (fond) No. 22 - Zemaljska školska uprava za Srpsko Vojvodstvo i Tamiški Banat (K. und K. Landesschulverwaltung für die Serbische Woiwodschaft und das Temescher Banat) - Temišvar (1851-1855) School administration of the land for the Serb Voivodship and of Temescher Banate.

I know that Syrmia is close to Novi Sad, beeing the centre of xenophoby and radicalism in Serbia, but naming the two streets by the names of terrorist's.

Imbris 22:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You are disruptive. Imbris 22:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Please stop trolling and stop disrupting other users in their work. "This memo" is something that anybody could writte here claiming that he sent it to the archive (Do you think that I am stupid or what?). I already answered to your arcive documents, but I will answer again: there are two kinds of those documents: one kind using name Voivodship of Serbia and another kind using name Serbian Voivodship. Your attempt to present only one kind of documents and to completelly ignore other kind (the one that is widely used among historians) is nothing else but a futile attempt for history falsification. Regarding Syrmia, what "xenophoby, radicalism and terrorists" you speak about? Is that another personal insult because half of my ancestors are from Syrmia? Also, please try to prove your claim that I am disruptive. PANONIAN (talk) 15:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the question of archival standards

Texts are in Serbian language and cyrlic for the convenience of Panonian.

• ISAD(G) Opća međunarodna norma za opis arhivskoga gradiva, in English General International Standard of Archival Description

• ISAAR(CPF) Međunarodna norma arhivističkoga normiranoga zapisa za pravne i fizičke osobe te obitelji International Standard of Archival Records for Corporations, Persons and Families

Please be constructive. Imbris 19:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You be constructive, stop trolling and stop insulting my ethnic origin and history of my ancestors. PANONIAN (talk) 20:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You are not constructive. When ever someone start's to be polite you start to be impolite. I hope that you will be blocked. Imbris 22:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you was not polite to me - you insulted me, both personally and racially/ethnically and your hate towards my ethnic origin is just incredible. Should I like you because of that? Regarding blocking, the blocking policy on Wikipedia is really not good one because it allow to every single ultra-nationalist and irredentist to express his "opinion" and spread hate against somebody. The last thing what Wikipedia should be is a place for that. PANONIAN (talk) 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)