Talk:Voiceless velar fricative
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I do not understand the most recent edit: 'the German name "Bach" when it is pronounced wrong (like usually in English).' It seems to me that the voiceless velar fricative is the correct sound for the "ch" in "Bach", but that many English-speakers substitute [k] for [x]. I hope my edit is clear. -- Lesgles 05:06, June 27, 2004 (UTC)
After seeing I wasn't quite correct about some of my English language examples for aspirated vs. unaspirated voiceless consonants, I'm not so sure about my German example either. If someone believes the aspirated/unaspirated distinction I have made here to be incorrect, by all means change it, and if someone with a better knowledge of German phonology can verify that it is correct, please leave a message here to that point. Thanks. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 00:53, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It appears that a good amount of material on German phonology on the English Wikipedia is incorrect with respect to the Ach-Laut sound. According to this, it is more often a voiceless uvular fricative, so I will move the example there, and note that this is a dialect variation. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 20:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It appears an anonymous user has changed the German example without commenting on it here (as well as changing the example in voiceless uvular fricative). This has been very frustrating as I changed the example to reflect more accurately the reference above and what I was told by a German Wikipedia user. See Talk:Voiceless uvular fricative for discussion. I want to get this right. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 00:27, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm a native speaker of both German and Dutch, and as far as I know, the ach g in both languages is the uvular vl fricative. The palatal fricative, x, is what we in the Netherlands refer to as the "zachte g", means "soft g", used in southern Dutch dialects such as Brabants. [oliver lenz]
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[edit] Hanukkah example
I'm pretty sure that the 'ch' in Chanukkah is an uvular fricative, not a velar fricative - at least in modern Israeli hebrew... maybe that example should be taken out. (See Voiceless uvular fricative) --Mo-Al 03:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This problem still exists in the "In English" section.--Mo-Al 02:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Alternate substitution in English
As an Australian, I've noted that in some exceptional cases, /x/ at the end of a word is turned into a [ʃ] instead of a [k]. The most obvious example I can think of is in the name of Australian celebrity David Koch, where his last name is instead pronounced [kɒʃ], probably to prevent an unfortunate phonetic clash with "cock". I considered putting this in the article, but I'm not sure whether this is at all worthwhile for the article, as it does seem to be a very rare occurence, and indeed, I'm struggling to come up with any other examples of such a substitution. -- Kirby1024 01:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad I've found the name for this. I've always just called it "that consonant I can't pronounce." (So far, it's the only consonant in any language I am convinced I am unable to produce). moink 20:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It is definately the most diabolic consonant that exists. Ragzouken 16:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] X
In Russian, the X letter is pronounced as ç and not x.
[edit] Inaccure .ogg file?
I am Jewish-American, Hebrew being my second, yet semi native toungue, given that i learned it a young age. The speaker in the .ogg file is not pronouncing the hebrew version of the "ch" sound correctly. It is much rougher and sounds like throat clearing, almost.
[edit] German example
I'm a native speaker myself, and I had never heard of the word "zach" used as an example here. I looked it up in a dictionary and it was noted as a regional, probably dialectal word. Now, I don't want to just edit it to another example, seeing how there seems to be a slight difference betweeen the voiceless velar fricative and the voiceless uvular fricative that in all honesty, I'm not sure I understood correctly. So, I propose using an example that is actually known to German speaker, unless the former only occurs in some german dialects and the typical "throat" sound is the uvular one, in which case I propose to mark is as dialectal with annotations of what dialects and that it is only used there instead of the uvular version. --91.0.68.156 19:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- It was in my oxford dictionary but as far as I know, any German word that rhymes with "zach" or "pacht" will have the voiceless velar fricative so don't be afraid to change the example word. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm a German speaker, too, and at least I never say [dax], but always [daχ]. Maybe it's allophonic in words like "Kachel" for some speakers? Is there any reference that backs this up? — Sebastian 01:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Spanish example
Are you sure the word "ojo" is pronounced with the voiceless velar fricative? I was taught the letter jota makes an /h/ sound when used as a consonant, although I suppose if you speak quickly it might sound like /oxo/. -- Mwalcoff 04:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- /h/ and /x/ are similiar sounds, especially to speakers with only one or the other in their phonetic inventory. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
