Talk:Vlad III the Impaler/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Dracula's Mother

No source I have consulted names Vlad III's mother as Marya Magdalene. McNally and Florescu say she was Cneajna Musati. Double names or middle names are exceeding rare in the medieval period, it's unlikely any woman would've been named Marya Magdelene Cnjeana. Unless someone can show me a good source for the "Marya Magdalene" name, I will remove it. Missi

Cneajna means princess in Russian and other Slavic languages. --Vladko 16:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


Cnjeana is the Romanian word for Princess, it is not a middle name, it is a title given after her name. I am not sure if the name is correct, but it is most definatly formated correctly for the medieval time period, being as she was either of a noble birth, or noble by marriage, what ever her name may be it would most definatly be followed by that title after she was married, if not before. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.31.157.162 (talk • contribs) 8 September 2006.

Vlad II's Mother

[moved up to be near related section]
I have heard from a couple reliable sources that Vlad II's mother was the Marya Magdalene who was spoke about earlier

What? Dahn 03:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Marya Magdalene Was Dracluea, Vald mother as stated —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.186.77.196 (talk • contribs) 28 October 2006.
[end moved up]

Does anyone have anything citable on this? - Jmabel | Talk 06:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Wow, she would have been about 1400 years old when Vlad was born, wouldn't she? Corvus cornix 00:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Jesus

Without strong proof showing Mary Magdalene had the same name as Jesus' whore/friend, then I suspect it would be mistake to promote such hearsay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.120.83.2 (talk) 23:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Atrocities

"In 1459, on Saint Bartholomew's Day (in August), Dracula had thirty thousand of the merchants and officials of the Transylvanian city of Braşov impaled."

In 1785 Brasov had 17.671 inhabitants.How many did it have in 1459?

Good observation. This might warrant a disputed-tag for the article. Obviously that number is exaggerated, at the very least (It'd have to be a huge city to even have 30,000 merchants and officials at that time). This article does need a lot more sources, given how it's a subject with plenty of exaggeration going around. --BluePlatypus 12:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


the article says the following Dracula usually had a horse attached to each of the victim's legs as a sharpened stake was gradually forced into the body. The end of the stake was usually oiled and care was taken that the stake not be too sharp; else the victim might die too rapidly from shock. Normally the stake was inserted into the body through the anus and was often forced through the body until it emerged from the mouth. This description does not make sense. If a not too sharp stake was to be used so as not to kill too fast, the stake would never be stuck in up to going out through the mouth : a) to push the stake that far, it would need to be sharp so as to go through the mass of intestines and the diaphragm; b) if pushed that far, the victim would be dead before the executioners were finished, because of major injuries to the diaphragm, the heart, lungs, or large vessels in the area, and pushing the stake through the throat would cause suffocation in short order. either a sharp stake was used and pushed through the whole body, and the victim was hung up already dead, or a blunt one was pushed only far enough to be wedged in the intestines, and the victim died slowly from internal bleeding and as the contents of the abdominal cavity were pushed up against the diaphragm causing slow suffocation.--Svartalf 22:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's meant relatively (well it's meant to be sensationalist I imagine). In other words care was taken to not make it as blunt as possible to achieve the outcome - which may or may not have been to push it up through the mouth. -- blankfrackis 01:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


One of my studies in college actually delt with torture in this time period, and I have seen some of the metal pikes that were used to impale victums of this particular type of torture. They are formed to a point, but the point is not particularly sharp. The process would take about 2 to 5 minutes to complete, and often the victum was dead or nearly dead at the time the torture was finished. If you are trying to get an idea of what the pike looked like, think of a pencil. If you sharpen a pencil as sharp as it will go, the pain would not be as great if it stuck you, but if you took that same pencil and wrote with it for a while, it is still sharp enough to drive it into your hand with relative ease, but it will hurt more. Basically, after the pikes were sharpened, usually by sliceing from the center of the tip down and tword the outside in 4 places to form a point, it would then have been dulled slightly on the edges, and at the tip so as not to create a razor blade effect. I realize I have gone long enough about this, but one last comment, the tip was driven ecactly has it is describe, but it was not just oiled, it was first heated up, and then boiling oil was applied to it, so as to help control bleading and prolong the life as long as possible, usually no more than 10 minutes or so, if the heart and lungs were missed. .—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.31.157.162 (talk • contribs) 8 September 2006.


"Many have attempted to justify Vlad's actions on the basis of nascent nationalism and political necessity." The wording makes it sound like Wikipedia disagrees... NPOV... any thoughts? -Nachosamurai (October 30, 2006)

You have the guy impaling 10,000 here, 30,000 there, etc. Presumably these people didn't just meekly go along with it. How many impalers do you need to impale someone who doesn't want to be impaled? And what would they eat? Who would grow it and sell it to them? And so on. Did the entire society and economy revolve around impalement and its supporting services? These numbers seem exagerated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.123.204.116 (talk • contribs) 11 November 2006.

The number of 30.000 being impaled is without a doubt over the top. But you can't look at the size of a city in the 1700's as a guide for how many was there 300 years earlier. If you look at sources of other large cities such as Bucharest, Moscow, Kiev, London etc. you will notice that the size of a city often jumped significantly within a short period of time. This was caused by large historical events such as war (or impalement), and diseace. I have seen valid and reliable sources for many around this region, but not the one in question, and I don't have a source at hand right now, but I have never the less seen sources proving that the capita in some cities around 1600 and 1700 was reduced from 80.000 to less than 8.000 due to the plague. This could well have happened in the city in question, thus making its' size a mere 17.000 in the 1700's while being significantly larger around the time when Vlad reigned. So only way to know if the impalement of 30.000 is a realistic number, it is necessary to find a source stating the number of citizens at the time in question - and I don't think such a source exists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.47.202.53 (talk • contribs) 15 November 2006.

Plagiarism?

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned already, but large parts of the article are copied verbatim from this essay: http://www.eskimo.com/~mwirkk/castle/vlad/vladhist.html

I have no idea when this comment was made (I noticed it just now while archiving). Does anyone know if this was addressed? - Jmabel | Talk 05:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The "Atrocities" section of the article does indeed look like it's been taken nearly verbatim from that essay, minus a couple of word changes. Mcsnee 16:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The entire "nine anecdotes" section has been ripped directly off a copyrighted website [1]. It's been reported to the administrator's noticeboard as well- we cannot allow plagiarism on Wiki. -- Daniel Davis 22:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Candide, or Optimism 22:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Whoops, I didn't see this before I restored it. I will unrestore it. That should settle this whole matter, except for Anittas's disruptive behavior. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


Nine anecdotes

This section is utterly unsourced. Even if they're just legends, we need something to indicate where the source came from for these legends, or else I will remove them. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The anecdotes are mentioned in the book by Florescu and also in the Russian-source site that is listed in the reference area. Don't remove anything. --Candide, or Optimism 03:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Then indicate in the section what the sources are. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
You mean footnotes? Since you brought it up, you do it. I'm totally burned out. --Candide, or Optimism 20:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, no. There is nothing in the section which explains the anecdotes, just waving a hand and saying the refererences source them is not acceptable sourcing, and I don't have the book available to verify your comment. If it isn't sourced, it gets deleted. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
You will not delete anything. If you do, it will be reverted and you'll be reported. We don't need to add the footnotes and we can't help that you don't have the book. However, you can still verify most of the anecdotes from the Russian document which is also translated in English. --Candide, or Optimism 04:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know where you plan on reporting me, but I've started a discussion of this at WP:ANI. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
They will stay, since the legend of Dracula is also very much unreferenced.--Preacher, or Princelet 19:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
WP:V NOTHING unreferenced can stay, for ANY reason. Period. --InShaneee 21:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
They are referenced. --Candide, or Optimism 21:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Not in the section I'm pointing to. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what you're trying to say. The anecdotes are sourced in the refenrece area. Florescu's book is included in the Reference section. --Candide, or Optimism 21:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Where is the .doc link that you keep referring to? Where is it in this article? User:Zoe|(talk) 21:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
In the External Link section you will see a link to a Doc file with the title: "The Tale of Dracula Russian manuscript circa 1490, with English translation (MS Word format)". >Can you find it? --Candide, or Optimism 21:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, thank you, that's what I've been asking for all along. Now, do you know how to do footnotes, because I don't. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I do know and it takes time; and unfortunatelly, not as fun as chatting with you and InShaneee. See this. As it says in the article, footnotes are not mandatory. --Candide, or Optimism 22:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

<-Back to the left - Not, it says This format is not mandatory; editors are free to use a different method. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes are not mandatory. If you don't believe me, ask in ANI. --Candide, or Optimism 22:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


Drăculea – how it was written originally?

Re: His son Vlad III would later use in several documents the surname Drăculea,…
Could it really be written with ă in the XVth century? Afaik, modern Romanian alphabet was introduced only four centuries later… So how was this variant of Vlad’s name written in original documents? Could it be, that it was written in Cyrillic letters and Drăculea is just a modern Romanian transliteration?--Imrek 13:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Most certainly it was written in cyrillic lettres, and Drăculea is the modern romanian transliteration. Actually, as you should know, the letter ă was added in the romanian alphabet to realise a better mapping of the old Romanian Cyrillic alphabet, so it must have been written with the letter Ъ. Mihai -talk 13:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Stocker was somewhat inspired by vlad but did not intend Dracula to be vlad Dragon Emperor 16:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe it would be "Дракуля," but I'm not entirely sure. Jecowa 05:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it was likely Дръкɣлѣ.--Alex:Dan 00:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Vlad Dracula

i dont know any historical document associating the name of Vlad the Impaler with Dracula. i know this association is beletristical/fantasy thing. if anyone can bring evidence that the name Vlad Dracula was employed in historic documents (no, Bram Stoker's book is not historic document) then name Vlad Dracula stays. until then, i will remove then name Vlad Dracula and replace it with Vlad the Impaler. however exciting it would be to have a Vlad Dracula, wikipedia tries to be an encyclopedia Criztu 09:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC) criztu

Actually the name was widely used in reference to him in his time (and it is not at all "belletristic"). "Basarab" is a modern cognomen used by Romanians who want to enhance the vision of a dynasty, and, just as you do, have a POV problem with the name "Dracula". In fact, the only thing belletristic is the added aesthetical value to the name, not the name itself. Dahn 13:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I read there is this document of a chronicler of his, noting his self designation as Draculea. I read Dracula is the name used in Saxon Pamphlets (i consider them beletristics) that propagated his torture thing. it is easy to conclude that this polish Jan Dlugosz had no direct contact with Vlad Draculea, knowing him by third party sources, and that he wrote down the name Dracula propagated by Saxon pamphlets. i have to say that my "i dont know any historical document associating the name of Vlad the Impaler with Dracula" is unclear. by "historical document associating Vlad with Dracula" i mean "first hand sources using the name Vlad Dracula", Jan Dlugosz's annals are not first hand sources, as i explained above. ehrmm, i hope i am clear this time :) Criztu 20:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
points:
  • if name Vlad Dracula was used in documents other than literature/fiction/beletristics, then u should provide proof of such use of Vlad Dracula in documents.
  • there is no main article entitled Ceashca altho this is the nickname most of romanians refer to Nicolae Ceausescu
  • there is no JFK article altho this is the "sort of a nickname" most of the americans recognise as being John F. Kennedy president of US.
  • the name Vlad Basarab was the name of Vlad Tepes/Impaler, since his forefathers bore the name Basarab. check Britannica, i dont think Britannica want to enhance the vision of a dynasty. there is nothing to discuss about whether his family originated from Basarab. there is nothing wrong to outline that Vlads forefathers held the throne of Wallachia before him, qualifying the Basarabs as a dynasty.
  • Draculea is a nickname of Vlad Basarab. Dynastic name Vlad Basarab has precedence/preemption over nickname Vlad Dracula, and explaining such basic thing to anyone moving Vlad III Basarab to Vlad III Dracula is waste of time.
  • Dracula is a character of a fictional work by Bram Stoker. having Vlad III Dracula as title of an article about Vlad III Basarab, I considered as a bending of an encyclopedia standard. nickname Vlad III Dracula should redirect to dynastic name Vlad III Basarab if a dynastic name Vlad III Basarab couldnt be demonstrated as false.
I will wait a few days so anyone can demonstrate how Vlad Dracula would be more accurate/relevant than Vlad Basarab, and for any other argumentation Criztu 07:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


I'm just passing the following along from Anittas. The non-code-page-1252 characters were all messed up in what he sent me (just so it's clear what I was dealing with, it came through with things like "împreună cu puţini [luptători]"); I've done my best to fix, but I'm in something of a hurry, so there may be some typos, which anyone may feel free to fix. I've left out some ad hominem remarks. - Jmabel | Talk 16:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[Start forwarded material from Anittas] http://www.stefancelmare.ro/cronici-straine.htm#

RAPORTUL LUI LADISLAU, SLUJITORUL LUI VLAD ŢEPEޞ (7 AUGUST 1476)

Lauda lui Dumnezeu, din ziua de 7 august, ora 22. Darea de seamムa lui Ladislau, omul voievodului Draculea[1], venit în noaptea dinainte din Moldova, de unde era plecat de vreo 10 zile[2] şŸi zice:


Dlugozs:

"In aceastムexpediţiune, Dracula fu ucis din cauza înşŸelăciunii unui rob al săƒu"

Felix P:

"Dracula[1], împreunムcu puţini [luptƒtori], dar aleşŸŸi, atunci când Mahomed, împăƒratul turcilor, cuprinsese Valahia Mare şŸŸi se grăƒbea sッ o ocupe pe cea micッ, l-a atacat aci în a doua veghe a nopţii şŸŸi l-a pus pe fugムcu mare mッcel al [oamenilor] săƒi şŸi l-a silit săƒ-şŸi facムîntoarsムcalea cu mare ruşine."

Letter of Stephen the Great to Venice, 1477

"şi aşŸa am fッcut îndatッ şŸi am mers, eu dintr-o parte şi căpitanul craiului dintr-alta, şŸi ne-am unit şi am pus în domnie pe zisul Drッculea. Isprăvind aceasta, el m-a rugat săƒ-i las, pentru paza lui, oameni de-ai noşŸtri, căƒci în valahi [munteni] nu se prea încredea; şŸi i-am lăƒsat 200 de oameni din curtenii mei."

http://www.stefancelmare.ro/izvoare.htm

[End forwarded material from Anittas]

all these romanian translations have what i call "the style of contemporary romanian orthodox church". the site is a religious site. it doesnt offers notes to whether the translated names Dracula and Draculea are kept in their original forms. Even if Dracula is kept from an original form, i still consider the name Vlad III Basarab has precedence to Vlad III Dracula. I think an encyclopedia should list rulers by their name, dynastic name, and their nicknames offered only as additional info Criztu 17:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, I'm posting a response from Anittas. Again I have removed ad hominem remarks.-- Jmabel | Talk 18:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[Start forwarded material from Anittas]

The translations are accurate. It doesn't matter that the site is religious, because they just posted the sources as they were. It is well known that Dracula was called Dracula or Draculea and that his father was known as Dracul. If you would have read the history of that age, you would have known. Also, as you were told by me and Leinarius, before; the -lea suffix means "al lui" -- standing for 'the son of'.

Here are more sources from Dlugosz which are not from that site, but from his book.

The Annals of Jan Jan Długosz ISBN 1901019004

page 594

"Dracula is then treacherously murdered by one of his slaves"

page

"Voivode Stephen of Walachia, having recruited a fresh army, makes another foray into Bessarabia, where he captures Dracula's son, Radulon."

If you compare the first source written in English with the same source written in Romanian, you will see that the translation is accurate. About the second source: the Poles called Moldavia for Walachia and Wallachia for Bessarabia. Dracula also signed his name as Dracula or Draculea. … We don't say Stephen Musat; we say Stephen III of Moldavia or Stephen the Great. We don't say Michael Basarab; we say Michael the Brave…

[End forwarded material from Anittas]

1)do you imply "Vlad III Basarab" would be less accurate than "Vlad III Dracula" ? Criztu 19:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
2)do you suggest wikipedia should retain the nickname of Vlad as the title of the article instead of retaining the name of his family/dynasty/whatever ? in such case would his other nicknames "Vlad III the Impaler" or "Vlad III Draculea" qualify less than "Vlad III Dracula" as title of the article ? Criztu 19:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
3)why should "Vlad III Dracula" have precedence over "Vlad III Basarab"' ? Criztu 19:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
4)since Michael the Brave and Stephan the Great are translations of romanian Mihai Viteazul and Stefan cel Mare, wouldnt this reasoning require changing Vlad Dracula with Vlad the Impaler, which is translation of romanian Vlad Tepes ? I would prefer to see Vlad Tepes as the name of the article, but on the other hand, Vlad III Basarab would be more accurate in terms of Rulers of Wallachia. It would make following the branches of Valachia's ruling families easier to follow, since i use Wikipedia to access ordered information. I need to find out quickly who's son was Vlad, if he was Vlad I, II or III, and from what family of nobles did he rose to the throne of Wallachia. Criztu 19:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

as a note, I am not aware of an expert study on the etymology of Draculea. if anyone can bring such study here, it would be great, otherwise, such "-lea" in Draculea means "son of Dracul" have no guarantee. I can say "-lea" in Draculea doesnt mean "son of Dracul", as "-lea" from Otelea (a romanian name) doesnt mean "son of Ote" Criztu 19:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

---As another note: the suffix "-lea" does indeed mean "son of" or "of the X kind"/ "of the X family". It is a attributive suffix in romanian. And... by the way: Otelea (pronounced Otseleah) does not mean "son of Otse"... That is a naive deduction. It means "of the steel-kind" or "of the steel maker's family"... The suffix is attributive - there is absolutely NO DOUBT about this. Just move on, please.Leinarius

I don't know if 'lea' ever meant son of, but Leinarius is right that it is, or rather was an attributive suffix. I don't know of examples of current usage, except in the ordinal numbers: al doi-lea, al trei-lea, and so on.C0gnate 19:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Anittas adds, "there was a Draculesti [I presume Draculeşti - JM] branch of the Basarab family; the Basarab family split in two after the death of Mircea; there were two factions: the Draculesti and the Danesti [I presume Daneşti - JM] . Laiota, for instance, belonged to the Danesti faction." - Jmabel | Talk 16:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, the situation here i see it as follows. If i search "Britannica Vlad Tepes" i find an article in Britannica named Vlad III Tepes, also known as Vlad III the Impaler. if i search "Britannica Vlad Dracula" i find nothing. some editors of Wikipedia are fine with Vlad III Dracula, some editors of Wikipedia are fine with Vlad III Tepes or Vlad III the Impaler, or Vlad III Basarab. Romanian oficial history institutions call this guy Vlad III Tepes. which side has better expertise so we can use as guide for the title of this article ? Britannica and Romanian oficial history academics, or a number of Wikpedia editors ? Criztu 16:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm feeling a bit like a messenger boy here. Anittas' response:

[Begin copied]
Britannica doesn't have an article on Vlad Tepes; instead, his name is being mentioned in other sources. It is true that in Romania, Dracula is known as Vlad Tepes, but Wikipedia works differently. The Romanian academia uses the name Tepes because it's the popular name that Romanians know him by, but they never deny that he had the name Dracula. Outside Romania, the situation is different: he is mostly known as Dracula, not as Tepes. Wikipedia has its own policy, different from the one of Britannica and Romania. The official name of Vlad, in the contemporary sources and much of history, is Dracula. Tepes was added later, after his death, after a nickname that the Turks gave him. One of his descendents later adopted the name Tepelus. You claimed that the name is pure fantasy and asked for sources. You were given plenty of sources. Now you take the argument on a different level, saying that the title should be changed to Vlad Tepes because in Romania he is called Vlad Tepes. Well, that's not a convincing argument.

And since Tepes was never a part of his name or title, if we were to have it as the title of the article, we would have to transliterate it as Vlad the Impaler.
[End copied]

My one quick side remark: that would be translate, not transliterate. - Jmabel | Talk 17:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, have u searched "Britannica Vlad III Tepes" or "Britannica Vlad III Basarab" or "Britannica Vlad III the Impaler" ? have u searched "Britannica Vlad III Dracula" ? Criztu 17:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think Britannica is particularly relevant here. The issue—insofar as there is an issue—is our own naming standards. I think that the article is in the correct place and that all of these others should redirect here. I also think that, given that "Vlad the Impaler", "Vlad Tepes" (sadly, usually just like that, without the diacritics), and "Vlad Dracula" are all in common use in English, the issue of which we use is a minor one, and we have wasted a lot of time on this. As long as all the redirects are there, we are serving our readers well. The rest of this is nitpicking, and the time would better be spent on more substantive matters. - Jmabel | Talk 18:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

redirecting to Vlad III the Impaler is not a huge task. I just move page to Vlad III the Impaler and create a redirect. that is all required. Britannica and Romanian academic sources have more expertise than us all. They are my standard Criztu 18:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Again: they shouldn't be our standard. Wikipedia has its own standards for naming. Romanian academic sources, while quite important for someone of limited fame, are not crucial here, given that we are concerned mainly with names used in English-language contexts. And Britannica simply has different rules than we do for choosing names for titles of articles on nobility and royalty: following them slavishly in this respect would be throwing away our own manual of style. - Jmabel | Talk 20:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

pls provide link to wikipedia manual of style regarding Vlad III Basarab Criztu 21:18, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
As I replied to more or less the same question elsewhere, one relevant passage is at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Names: "The article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known". There's also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). -- Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda

there are people who might not be aquainted to the Propaganda that targeted Vlad III throughout the history of the Romanian Principalities . there are romanian authors suggesting hungarian propagandists found this Bram Stoker and gave him material about Elisabeth Bathory and stuff, and manipulated him into this Dracula thing. there are fans of this Vampire thing that are pushing for a real Dracula Prince across the internet. whatever the reasons the following quotes from the article lead to a distortion of Wikipedia article about Vlad III.

Wallachian royalty and the family background of Dracula instead of family background of Vlad III

Dracula's grandfather instead of Vlad III's father

Dracula seems to have had three brothers instead of Vlad III had 3 bros

...was Dracula's half-brother instead of Vlad III's 1/2 bro

he continuously tried to replace Dracula instead of he tried to replace Vlad III

and so on and so on.

these are edits of propaganda pushers. I would request Protection for this page but i am not skilled in this matter. Instead, i will remove them until an admin will step in and RfP (i think this is the abreviation) Criztu 17:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

desigur,e o vastă conspiraţie...

pfiuuu, the section "Atrocities" is such a deep hole, i wont dive in that :)) Criztu 19:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think what you're really saying is that the term Dracula is easily overused because Vlad is known as Vlad Tepes, not Vlad Dracula (except to teenage Americans). Also, there is zero support for any Hungarians' manipulation of Bram Stoker. The Hungarians were basically allies of Vlad Tepes and would have no cause to do something so silly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.120.83.2 (talk) 23:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

moving to Vlad III Basarab, or Vlad III the Impaler, or Vlad III Draculea

points:

  • the name of the guy was Vlad III, seems he employed Draculea to refer to himself
  • he came from a family of rulers of romanian principalities, called Basarabs. modern historians favour Vlad III Basarab
  • he is known in romanian as Vlad III Tepes (english Vlad III the Impaler) alongside rulers with similar uber names, like Michael the Brave, Mircea the Elder, Stefan the Great, etc. this name is also favoured by modern historians, at least Britannica and Romanian academy
  • medieval propaganda directed against Vlad III, modern Dracula-fans propaganda, and other sorts of propagandas, call Vlad III as Dracula.

I think the minimum of respect for Vlad III should be granted in a wikipedia, in that an objective name must have precedence over a defamatory name (Dracula is defamatory since the saxon pamphlets were defamatory, and they propagated the name Dracula). no one uses the name the anti-american propaganda uses for the United States in this encyclopedia, am i right ? noone can argue that Vlad III the Impaler or Vlad III Basarab are not known in english lang. an article Vlad III Dracula shifts things towards a fantasy-horror-entertainment aproach wikipedia, rather than an objective aproach wikipedia

having expressed my opinnion on this matter, i will wait anoter few days so anyone can realise the immensity of such name Vlad III Dracula on an encyclopedia. Criztu 17:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

O, thank you for your kind help, Criztu... Now, I will wait for another few years so you can realise the immensity of not using diacritics in Romanian and the importance of writing in proper English when you start a series of massive edits on English wikipedia. Dahn 08:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I will now move the page Vlad III Dracula to Vlad III the Impaler. I will list the reasons for such move once again

  • 1,030,000 hits for "Vlad the Impaler" and 587,000 hits for "Vlad Dracula".
  • Dracula is a transliterated name of Draculea, propagated mainly by saxon pamphlets.
  • Dracula is mostly associated with a vampire count, Vlad III was a ruler.
  • Vlad the Impaler is the name Britannica uses for Vlad III Basarab. Criztu 18:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent decision based on sound reasons. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.120.83.2 (talk) 23:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Snagov Sources?

"Still others say that he was killed by his brother whom at the time was with the turks and his step father; his brother stabbed him to death. He was then buried in the church from which he was taken out of. Some people say that his father came to visit the coffin and was found beheaded. Also that somewhere in the late 1800's early 1900's when archyologists dug up the coffin the tomb had only animal bones in it."

Up above the passage, it says his brother, Radu the Handsome, had died, and now it says that his brother may have killed him? Sometime in the late 1800s' early 1900's? In addition to being terrible grammar and mispelling, I'm wondering if there's a source. It seems highly dubious. I'm going to wait before I remove it, but I will tag it as citation needed. Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.151.203.96.36 17:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Draculea/Dracula applied to Vlad II ?

According to Romanian historian Constantin Rezachevici, the nickname Draculea/Dracula was first applied to Vlad II, father of Vlad III:

Quote #1: “Even before Vlad Tepes' reign in Romania, the boyar Albu had called Vlad Dracul (which was a nickname known outside of Romania), simply Draculea (Andreescu 150-51), the popular exclusively Romanian name. The Venetian messenger Bartholomeo de Jano and his contemporary Greek chroniclers Leonicos Chalkokondyles and Critobul of Imbros have also called him Draculea (Andreescu 154-55). Even Iancu of Hunedora, who executed him, made mention on December 17, 1456, of “infidelem Drakwlam wayvodem” (Documenta 461). <...> It is clear that Draculea (Dracula) was a popular nickname for Vlad Dracul, meaning a person belonging to the Order of the Dragon. For his son, Vlad Tepes, the name “Dracula” became through affiliation an alternative, not only a nickname, with the side effect of increasing his bad reputation, with its diabolical meaning, even though originally, in his father's days, “Dracul” did not have a malevolent meaning.”
Quote #2: “Although Vlad Tepes and his descendants have never used the symbol of the Order of the Dragon, he has inherited the nickname of his father Draculea/Dracula, which has become a family name (outside the country).”
(From the Order of the Dragon to Dracula. Constantin Rezachevici (rtf file))

If so, Draculea could not mean “son of Dracul”...--Imrek 16:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources?

No sources whatsoever in the "Alleged Atrocities" section, and worse, it reads like a (bad) fiction novel:

"In 1462 Mehmed II, the conqueror of Constantinople, a man not noted for his squeamishness, returned to Constantinople after being sickened..." I mean, give me a break.

I could take this entire section apart line by line.

"The corpses were often left decaying for months." Who says they were often left decaying for months? How do you know they weren't cleaned up within three to five days?

"Thousands were often impaled at a single time. 10,000 were impaled in the Transylvanian city of Sibiu (where Vlad the Impaler had once lived) in 1460. The previous year, on Saint Bartholomew's Day (in August), Vlad the Impaler had 30,000 of the merchants and officials of the Transylvanian city of Braşov that were breaking his authority impaled."

This is HUGE. This guy impaled 40,000 of his own subjects in 2 years? Obviously, if this is at all true it must be widely documented; cite it!

"Vlad the Impaler began his reign of terror almost as soon as he came to power. His first significant act of cruelty may have been motivated by a desire of revenge as well as a need to solidify his power. Early in his reign he gave a feast for his boyars and their families to celebrate Easter. Vlad was well aware that many of these same nobles were part of the conspiracy that led to his father's assassination and the burying alive of his elder brother, Mircea. Many had also played a role in the overthrow of numerous Wallachian princes. During the feast Vlad asked his noble guests how many princes had ruled during their life times. All of the nobles present had outlived several princes. One answered that at least thirty princes had held the throne during his life. None had seen less than seven reigns. Vlad immediately had all the assembled nobles arrested. The older boyars and their families were impaled on the spot. The younger and healthier nobles and their families were marched north from Târgovişte to the ruins of Poienari Castle in the mountains above the Argeş River. Vlad the Impaler was determined to rebuild this ancient fortress as his own stronghold and refuge. The enslaved boyars and their families were forced to labor for months rebuilding the old castle with materials from another nearby ruin."

OK this is just too much, dude. Are you just making it up as you go along or what? You're reporting what was actually SPOKEN at this meeting without sources?

Every word in the "alledged atrocities" section is unsubstantiated and I move that it be cited, eliminated, or at least qualified with a disclaimer saying, "if you want to waste 2 minutes of your life, please read this section." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.148.10.46 (talk • contribs) 1 August 2006.

For what it's worth the (quite citable, and public domain) 1911 Britannica has:

The stories of his ferocious savagery exceed belief. He is said to have feasted amongst his impaled victims. When the sultan Mahomet, infuriated at the impalement of his envoy, the pasha of Vidin, who had been charged with Vlad's deposition, invaded Walachia in person with an immense host, he is said to have found at one spot a forest of pales on which were the bodies of men, women and children.

The first sentence of that is interestingly ambiguous, no? - Jmabel | Talk 17:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Much of this, including his revenge against the boyars could be cited from (and may have been taken without acknowledgment from) The Real Dracula by John Fasulo. It's a bit breezy in style, but looks well footnoted. It is from The Ithaca College History Journal, which is admittedly an undergraduate journal. If people think that makes it insufficiently reliable (I'm 50-50 on that), then I'd suggest following one step up the citation food-chain to the materials Fasulo cites. - Jmabel | Talk 18:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Did Braşov even have 30,000 inhabitants in the 15th century (let alone 'merchants and officials')? Does anyone believe that there were massacres on that scale without written reports at the time and without any hard evidence surviving? Did Sibiu have a population of 10,000? There are some very obvious points here. Moreover, at the risk of being a shade gruesome, it's worth pointing out that impalement (especially in the manner described in the text) was a time-consuming method of execution. I'm not asking anyone to do OR, but skepticism, based on common sense, is called for. Norvo 02:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
There's no way Brasov had 30K residents. It's laughable on its' face.

radu???

were Radu the handsome and mehmed the second gay lovers. - Zadsat 14:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes they were. McNally and Florescu explain that during their period of captivity, Vlad resisted Mehmed's sexual advances but Radu certainly did not. That sort of thing was common in the Ottoman Empire. It should probably be included here.Shield2 23:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ugliest wiki entry

This is probably the ugliest wiki entry I've ever seen. It's a horrible mess. It seems to me, that half of the article is just someones opinion, with very factual information. I could easily see this wiki article being half it's size.

It seems that most of the article is taken directly from http://www.donlinke.com/drakula/vlad.htm This whole article needs to be redone. It seems as if it is plagiarized. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Boogiebugger (talk • contribs) 23 October 2006.

Calling it "ugly" doesn't really make for much action anyone can take.
On the other hand, if there is evidence of plagiarism:
  1. Could you be more concrete about what passages you think are plagiarised? You say "most of the article": are there actually multiple sections lifted from elsewhere?
  2. If, indeed, there is apparent plagiarism, we should look through the history, because if it got there through someone who is still an active user, we may need to address more than a single article.
Thanks in advance for any clarifications. - Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • twitch* I still think it's pretty ugly. >_< 'Cuz now I have pictures in my head about babies on stakes, women with sticks up their butts, and grown men screaming and crying. Ugh.

And a skinned woman with her privates cut off. Lovely. Just /lovely/. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.14.33.200 (talk • contribs) 12 November 2006.

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../v/l/a/Talk%7EVlad_III_the_Impaler_Archive_2_c557.html"