Talk:Vitruvian Man
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From the article:
- The rediscovery of the mathematical proportions of the human body in the 15th century by Da Vinci and others is considered one of the great achievements leading to the Italian Renaissance.
How can this be leading to the Italian Renaissance, which began before Leonardo was even born? I thought of changing it to "great achievements of the (early?) Italian Renaissance", but that would be rather difficult to defend. By the time I got something I thought accurate, it was too insipid to say at all. Maybe someone else can do better. Securiger 07:35, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
- I agree. I'm deleting the sentence.--Bcrowell 16:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
In popular text on the golden ratio, one often finds the claim that the navel in the Vitruvian Man divides his hight in the golden ratio. This may be approximately true, but claiming it to be intentional from daVinci's hand is to the best of my knowledge unsubstantiated, and it seems unlikely for several reasons. All the other proportions are rational (where as the golden ratio is irrational), and no texts dated before the 19th century discuss the golden ratio as an aestethical proportion.
Still, considering how frequently the claim is made, this article might include a prase like this: "It is sometimes claimed that Leonardo placed the navel so that it divides the height of the man in the golden ratio. However, this claim is unsubstantiated and not likely to be true."--Niels Ø 19:28, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
- We'd have to be careful that we weren't feeding misinformation from the rather too popular The Da Vinci Code! Pcb21| Pete 22:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- This particular claim has been around long before that particular book. Anyway, I think a good encyclopedia should discuss not only accepted facts, but also frequently made claims - stating clearly their status as unsubstantiated (and in this case even unlikely) claims. Why? (a) Because some users of the encyclopedia - e.g. school children writing an essay on da Vinci - will benefit from it, and (b) because the interesting thing about da Vinci is not just the man and the facts about him, but also the myth created around him.
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[edit] No mathematical proportions in human bodies
As discussed in Golden Ratio, you can't say the human body is made up of perfect proportions - if it was, we would all look the same. People have bigger and smaller noses and ears, and longer and shorter arms. There is no correct mathematical proportion approach in explaining how humans are supposed to look, as there are too many humans that are too different from each other.
See anthropometry.
I wonder why this article still uncritically copies statements from romantic misty-eyed art textbooks. --Abdull 08:48, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
dear whoever wrote human body not perfectly proportioned: Yes, it is true that the human race are not all the same. However, say someone has a big nose. There cheekbones, forehead, etc. would equally proportion the size of their nose. Same with say, a big butt. There thighs, and legs would then be a somewhat equally proportion to their butts. Yeah, I know your probably thinking..."Who thought of this genius thing to say." Just joking haha. But seriously. Think about it. Even though we all look different but, like i said, if one body part is bigger your other body parts will make up for it. You'll come out nice and proportioned. by the way, the reason this might sound a little confusing and maybe a little out of order is because I'm only about 14. sincerely, swimqt913
[edit] center of gravity
I've deleted this sentence: "This illustrates the principle that in the shift between the two poses, the apparent center of the figure seems to move, but in reality, the navel of the figure, which is the true center of gravity, remains motionless." This isn't true. First of all, the center of gravity of a human body is nowhere near the navel -- it's much lower. Try balancing on the edge of a table, and you'll find you have to balance at a point much lower than the navel. Also, when the arms and legs are raised, the center of gravity is also raised. The center of mass is the average position of all the mass in an object, so raising a bunch of mass will also raise the average.--Bcrowell 16:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC) I've put in a corrected discussion of the center of mass.--Bcrowell 17:17, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] art!
This should be an article about an artist, a piece of art, and the history of art, but there's almost no discussion about any of those things. We really need someone with the requisite knowledge (which means not me!) to add to this stuff. For instance, I believe that renaissance art showed human bodies in more realistic proportions than medieval art...? And didn't da Vinci (illegally?) dissect corpses so he could learn about anatomy?--Bcrowell 17:17, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Maybe some (or most) of the bodies he dissected were illeagal, but the Santa Maria Hostbitle granted him permission to cut open some bodies (only because of him being a well known artist/architect). But yes, I'm sure there were at least a few bodies that he dissected illegally.
[edit] Essential trivia.
I came here in order to learn:
- what's the size of the drawing?
- what's the radius of the circle?
- what's the side of the square?
Unfortunately these things are not mentioned in the article. I suppose one could calculate the relative sizes (or measure them directly on the image) but what about absolute sizes?
[edit] Cites and References
Why are these even needed for this article? This article is meant to be a discussion of a certain famous drawing. That drawing, and the text explaining it are both plainly visible at the top, and linked to larger versions big enough to read, albeit with a mirror and in Italian. I honestly can't think of a better cite than a link to the original document and the author's own notes. Perhaps the person who requested the cites could specifiy where a cite is needed? Rhialto 01:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Location
Is there a citation for the location of the drawing? The article states that it is housed in the Accademia Gallery in Venice. I believe it was on display there for a year after the introduction of the Euro, but that it is not on permanent display because it's too fragile. Opinions?
[edit] Da Vinci Should Have Known Better
Leonardo Da Vinci should have drawn his famous Vitruvian Man figure to fit into a rectangle and ellipse instead of a circle and a square to show how the human form relates to nature. He got it wrong and he should have known better. His version of Vitruvian Man became famous because he successfully related the human figure to the square and the circle by positioning the feet of his male figure at the bottom of both. Why did he take up this task? Apparently, he wanted to substantiate a two thousand year old mystical belief held by Pythagoras. This ancient Greek mathematician-philosopher believed that the square and the circle are the fundamental geometric patterns of the cosmic order and therefore the human form should relate to them. DaVinci could have and should have related the human figure to the universe and nature by drawing it with the arms and legs reaching to the corners of a rectangle based on the Golden Ratio of 1:1.618. Why? Because this ratio is found in innumerable expressions of nature from the patterns of pine cones and flower petal arrangements and from the swirl of galaxies to the double helix of DNA.
DaVinci knew about the Golden Ratio because the proportions of the body in his Vitruvian Man drawing and the facial features of the Mona Lisa are based on it. Also, DaVinci did the illustrations for Luca Pacioli’s book, “Divine Proportions” that popularized the Golden Ratio during the Renaissance.
Ironically, it is Pythagorus who is usually credited with discovering the Golden Ratio. However, some historians believe he learned it from the Egyptians who built some of their pyramids based on it. Countless mathematicians, architects, scientists, artists, musicians, and designers have used the Golden Ratio. In ancient Greece Phidias used it to design the Parthenon and Euclid the geometer defined it as the “Extreme and Mean Ratio.” Other terms such as “Golden Section,” “Golden Rectangle” and “Golden Triangle” have also been used to identify the ubiquitous 1:1.618 ratio. Today mathematicians use “Ф” or “φ” (the Greek upper or lower case letter Phi) to identify the Golden Ratio.
If DaVinci had configured his Vitruvian Man drawing to fit an ellipse and rectangle based on the Golden Ratio he would have produced an “X” shaped pose with the arms and legs approximately 52 degrees apart. I made a sculpture to illustrate this idea that I call “Ф Man.”
For more information contact: Daniel A.Tagliere 6415 N. Le Mai Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60646
Phone: 773-763-5868 Email: dantagliere@aol.com —
[edit] Where is it?
When I was in Florence there was a Gallerie dell' Accademia there, and earlier this month the picture was, I think, in the Uffizi - in Florence. I didn't see it last year in Venice, but perhaps I just missed it and shall have an ecuse to go back. Are we in fact sure it resides in Venice? Midgley 18:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- We are then. Good. Midgley 13:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] can somebody remove "hi jodi" from the page, wikipedia won't allow me
can somebody remove "hi jodi" from the page, wikipedia won't allow me to remove it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.96.184.134 (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] how?
"the length of the hand is one-tenth of a man's height" howw???
I dunno man. Ask Vitruvius -- he's teh guy who said that. We only documented what he wrote. Well, technically, we documented what Leonardo wrote that he wrote. Rhialto 11:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
