Talk:Vitamin/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I cant find any info in wikipedia about minerals needed by humans, specifically chrome? Maybe its there but I dont know the english words for it.. (sorry, found it, "chromium" apparently and "dietary minerals")

Vitamin D is not a true vitamin as in normal circumstances it is produced in sufficient quantities in the body on exposure to sunlight.

"Normal circumstances"? Why is our milk fortified with Vitamin D if most people produce enough? -- Janet Davis

Vitamin D is synthetized by human body, but in quantities that might be not sufficent. Level of synthesis depends on sun activity, so in winter and in polar areas it's more like a vitamin, and in summer and in equatorial areas it's less like a vitamin.

That's what I thought. I believe it also depends on how dark your skin is. So why does the fact that some people sometimes produce enough make it "not a true vitamin"? (I'm trying to understand this, rather than just striking it from Vitamin, since I don't consider myself an expert.) -- Janet Davis

Except that it is more probable that most people always make enough vitamin D. It requires only 45 minutes a week sun exposure with otherwise proper nutrition. Those few who live in polar climes in winter and those unfortunates that don't get out enough may need supplementing. It seems it is added to milk at least partly because vitamin D's job is promoting calcium adsorbtion in the intestines. I beleive vitamin D is the only vitamin naturally produced in the body.? --rmhermen

By definition :]... from the page: "Vitamins are a class of essential nutrients that cannot be synthesized (either at all or in sufficient quantities) by a given organism and must be taken (in trace quantities) with food for that organism's continued good health." Thus D is only classed as a vitamin because in some situations the body may not be able to synthesize enough.

My endocrinology text argues that Vitamin D is not a true vitamin, as does my endocrinology professor. My impression is that Vitamin D's status as a vitamin is more contested than this article would indicate. -- Geoff

I find the bit about "Vitamin X" confusing. Can someone clarify? -- Janet Davis

BNF: Vitamin X ::= 'Vitamin' <Letter> | 'Vitamin' <Letter><Number>

                              -- Taw

:-) I still think it's confusing. Not everyone knows about formal grammars. I'll try to think of a better way to say it. -- Janet Davis

Your changes look good, Taw. -- Janet Davis

Given that

Usage of names 'Vitamin <letter>' and 'Vitamin <letter><number>' is diminishing. Especially vitamins H, M, B1, B2, B3 and B5 are usually called with their proper chemical names.

Would it better to have the Wikilinks on the proper chemical names? (The "old" names could still be redirects, just not link to them here.)

You're completely right. Will fix that. --Taw

what are the symptoms of not getting enough of the proper vitamins? what about too much?

I imagine everyone knows about scurvy, one possible result of not having enough vitamin C over an extended period of time. A section on those last two questions would be fascinating, I think. --KQ

What is Niacin ? Is it Nicotinic Acid or Amide of Nicotinic Acid ? I'm confused. --Taw

the Oxford American Dictionary has it as "nicotinic acid." --KQ

Long ago in biology I read that the body stores some vitamins but not others. Does anyone know anything about this, particularly the B vitamins--or how to find out? thanks, Koyaanis Qatsi

IIRC Fat-soluble vitamins can be stored but water-soluble ones cannot. --mav

Ah, that's right, thanks. Found some info on it. Koyaanis Qatsi

This page says B12 is water-soluble; external sources says water-soluble vitamins are not stored in the body; vegetarianism says B12 may be stored in the body for months. biologists? Koyaanis Qatsi

I'll have to look that up. But I come from this more from a toxicology standpoint and from that view all fat-soluble vitamins can much more easily build-up in the body while water-soluble ones more easily pass right through. But the body probably does have ways of actively collecting and storing certain vitamins. I would be very surprised, in fact, if it didn't. --mav
All B vitamins are by definition water soluable. It is also true that as a rule, water-soluable vitamins aren't stored for more than a few days. B12 just happens to be an exception - the liver (IIRC) can store it not just for months, but for (depending on source) up to a decade. Mkweise 06:04 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
Huh. I'd better hope so. Koyaanis Qatsi, a near-vegan who's been careless with his diet.
Having been a strict vegetarian since 1986 and was a near-vegetarian for several years before that, I've looked into the subject of B12 extensively. Some yeasts (*not* including baker's or brewer's yeast) prooduce it, and there's a good chance of getting a sufficient supply from yeasts naturally living in your intestine. If you are concerned, however, get some nutritional yeast flakes from your local health food store. These are made from strains specifically bred for B12 content grown on a selenium-rich sustrate and taste great on spaghetti with a little ghee (clarified butter.) Vitamin B12 tablets, as you probably know, are made from slaughterhouse waste. Mkweise 06:41 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)'

Right, thanks. Koyaanis Qatsi

I seem to get a craving for nutritional yeast every few months, which I interpret as a call for more B12. The rest of the time, my bag of nutritional yeast remains somewhere in the back of my cupboard. Mkweise 06:54 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
P.S. Of course as a vegan, you'll want to go for olive oil rather than ghee. (For my part, I cook with ghee and yoghurt and usually put a little milk in my tea.)

Wikipedia is not only a place for Professionals to share information with Professionals, but also a place for nonprofessionals to learn fairly indepth study on fields far removed from their own. Wikipedia probably has the best indepth study on the widest range of fields/topics anywhere on the Internet.

I said that to say this: "Could someone do an indepth discussion on vitamins as coenzymes and their role in the assembling of amino acid building blocks into function specfic protein modules?" That is whyyy are vitamins so important? Are all vitamins [beside B12] phytochemicals? Are all built in the photosynthesis process? How do vitamins differ from trace minerals as catalysts? Thanks.

Contents

"A boatload of copyedits"

I just made a bunch of copyedits, so I'm designating this spot for any objections to them. :) --Spikey 21:25, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I misread the vitamin D stuff the first time around (I thought vitamin D was being used for sythesis, rather than it being synthesized). Maybe this could be tweaked a bit, but I'm not sure how. Anthony DiPierro 22:18, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)


I deleted the (former) first sentence which was awkward, besides being neither factually correct nor a good introductory sentence MarkTaylor 19:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC) Mark Taylor

Pro-vitamins?

What are "Pro-vitamins"? These are commonly advertised in hair care products. For example, panthenol is referred to as "pro-vitamin B5." What meaning does the "pro" add? How is panthenol related to pantothenic acid? --LostLeviathan 02:30, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

the -ol ending means one of the functional groups of the molecule is an -OH group, while -ic acid means it's an -OOH group. A simpler example is methanol, which is a carbon with 3 hydrogens attached and an -OH group; methanoic acid is a carbon with one H, one double-bond O, and an -OH group. From this I assume (read: I don't know as a fact, but it seems conjecturable (ooh, word coin)) that a pro-vitamin is a molecule that is a variant of the vitamin itself, but is for some reason presented instead of directly as the vitamin. This could be for any number of reasons - it's more easily taken in by the body, it doesn't react with the food, etc etc. Hope that helps! --Firien 15:54, 27 Jan 2005 (GMT)

Changes

I've made a lot of changes in the last couple of days. Taking a hint from Spikey, I'd be interested if anyone has any feedback. I added the history section, and condensed a whole bunch of the less-organized areas into a single table on essential vitamins, and a single section about chemicals that aren't vitamins but are sometimes called vitamins. I got rid of a lot of the extraneous specific stuff, like the section on Q10. That really belongs on the Q10 page, although I left a sentence (and a link) here. I think there's still a lot to do, but I feel that the page is a bit more organized than it was. -- Plutor 14:41, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Looks very good! I think we need to fill out the section about vitamin deficiencies and the associated disease states. The articles on the individual vitamins probably have this information, but a summary table would be useful. ike9898 15:40, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
Thinking more about this last night, a lot of this information should probably go on the individual vitamin pages. Overall information about vitamins in general, for example, how deficiencies can be serious (and excesses equally serious), using deficiencies to discover vitamins, etc, belongs here. But it'd be good to get a lot of the specifics onto the individual pages. I'm thinking about creating a sidebar (a la Ammonia) for vitamins, with standard information, and filling in a lot of important vitamin information that Wikipedia's really lacking. My wife showed me that her Harrison's got tons of great stuff. -- Plutor 13:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Proposed vitamin box: Template:Vitaminbox -- Plutor 14:23, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Example use: Retinol -- Plutor 14:42, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Choline

Is choline really a vitamin? It's the 14th one in a list which, according to the text, should have 13 chemicals. The page about choline states that

The neurotransmitter acetylcholine is converted into choline and acetic acid by the enzymes acetylcholinesterase. This happens typically in the juncture between a motor nerve cell and a muscle cell.

So it's made in the human body which is against the definition of vitamin. I think it should be removed from the table.

It's not a vitamin (for humans) and ought to be removed. - Nunh-huh 22:29, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Obesity

A recent addition to the article reads:

"One of the serious problems of taking vitamin supplements is the fact that most of the vitamins strongly increase the appetite. In today's world a lot of people are obese."

Etc. I'd really want to see a source for the claim that high intake of vitamins increases appetite and causes obesity. --EnSamulili 23:43, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My research tends to go the opposite way (proper vitamin use helps to decrease obesity. Vitamins being catalysts for body chemical reactions means using vitamins will help you body work more efficiently. Such Vitamins as the B-complex (B-12 especially) actually give you energy because they are instrumental in the body’s metabolism of protein, fat and carbohydrates. Riboflavin (B2) is instrumental in the metabolism of fatty acids and amino acids while playing a key role in energy production for the body. It is also an important antioxidant.

Which vitamins are actually important

The article is nice, but it doesn't touch one aspect of the issue: which vitamins (and minerals) are actually important to care about in the modern world. It seems that typical Western diet contains so much of some of them, that the only way of getting a deficiency is by heavy dieting or having some other illness. On the other hand, some vitamins and minerals are present in a typical diet in insuffiecient or barely suffiecient amounts. Another part of the problem is that some vitamins are stored in large amount (typically in liver), so you don't need to care much about them in your daily diet, while others need constant resupply. Mere daily recommendations don't catch those important distinctions.

This kind of information is difficult to find, and it would be really great Wikipedia gathered them and summarized in useful form.

When you find such information put it in the individual vitamin articles. I think some of the vitamin articles already have such information. This article is on vitamins in general. --metta, The Sunborn ☥ 18:20, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Here is the best way to look at how vitamins, minerals, essential nutrients, etc should be considered in a daily diet:

In order to grow the crops we need farmers use NPK (nitrogen, phosphate, potasium) fertilizer, this gives the basic nutrients a plant needs to grow. So it grows. Now if its spinich (which has a high iron content) and the iron in the soil is depleted from years of growing the same crops then its not there in sufficient amounts as listed in its RDA because you cant create nutrients from thin air.

If you smoke (we all do to some extent if you consider indoor air pollution, and smog) then your ability to absorb, store, and use some vitamins can be reduced (such as vitamin C and E) so this has to be taken into consideration.

External links

I've been removing advertising links that are being added to this page without edit summaries. Are there any link that we should have that we don't? I tend to stick pretty close to External links, but I'm always open to discussion. brenneman(t)(c) 02:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I also think that is the guideline we should follow, and removing the advertisement is the right thing. However, the links seem to be coming back almost daily which is really sad. I wonder if we ought to protect the page? --EnSamulili 13:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I think page protection should be avoided, but I also think that link spamming is harmful to Wikipedia. Let's attempt to keep out the advertisements through other means for the time being. ike9898 13:54, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Benefits of vitamins

Selling vitamins is a big market. But what are the benefits and drawbacks of taking vitamins? I would be quite interested in the "facts" regarding that question, and think they would fit quite well in an article about vitamins. --Avernet 19:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

vegan B12

I noticed doing a google search that somewhere in this page someone mentioned that vitamin B12 is produced from slaughterhouse waste. I'm that's true in the case of most or nearly all brands. But there is one brand that is 100% vegan.

My God! This is an ingenious marketing scheme! I mean, uhh, yeah sure... it comes from slaughterhouse waste. Google even said so. Why would you want to eat slaughterhouse waste? Isn't it bad enough that we're being so mean to those poor animals? Why should we try to utilize all of those superfluous parts of the animals when we can feed them to our cats instead? You know what to do... Soandso(tm) brand vitamins today!!! Look for Soandso(TM) products at your local pharmacy, health food store, or fine purveyor of trendy-yuppie-vegetarian foods.

My understanding is that B12 is produced by bacteria, not animals.

So my guess is that it can be produced or grown in a petri dish or a test tube, or even in a giant vat, in a lab. But I would like to learn more about this.

Where do you get the bacteria? I will research it and get back if I find anything.

Reply

One of the best sources of 'vegetable ' B12, is spirulina. Most of the commercial B12 is sourced from bacterial production. The Vegan soceity can help with info on this and related matters eg which sources of vitamin D are bacterial and which are animal. Most of the commercial used B vitamins are produced from ' trained ' bacteria.

According to the UK Vegan society, Spirulina is not a reliable source of B12 for vegans - only fortified foods and supplements are.

Vitamin H

Some quick research reveals that "Vitamin H" is another term for biotin. So, as funny as the last explanation was ("Antipsychotic drug haldol is sometimes referred to as Vitamin H in psych hospitals (off-the-record, of course)."), I replaced it with this entry, which is far more pertinent. Also, I removed the reference to Ativan being called vitamin A. I've never heard or read of this, and it seemed too much like a joke for me not to delete it. Fuzzform 01:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Vitamin - DNA/mRNA interactions

How about a section on Vitamin - DNA interactions? There is a lot of knowledge about vitamins and hormones directly interacting with DNA and mRNA as transcriptional/translational activators and repressors. It would be fascinating to have a bit of reading on that subject here (as well as in the 'hormone' section).

Provitamin

How about a section on Provitamins --Melaen 16:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Human vitamins

SHould this be called something more logical like vitamins required by humans?--Peta 03:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


Spelling?

I actually don't know anything about chemistry, but i came across the word ribonflavin in here, and I thought it was a typo for "riboflavin," but I was afraid to change it incase ribonflavin is something else. So I searched for it on Google and it actually came up a few times, but I thought then maybe those were all typos (it only got about 20 hits max I think). I've come to the conclusion that it's a typo, but if I'm wrong, I apologize.

Contradiction

The article Ergadenylic acid claims that that substance is essential and is a true vitamin. Meanwhile, this article says that it is not. Which article is correct? And more importantly, what evidence does each side have to support their claims??? Please cite your sources. Thanks. --Transhumanist 08:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

In an odd twist both are technically correct:

Ergadenylic acid is called Vitamin B8 and is considered an essential vitamin.

Vitamin B8* Chemical Names- Adenylic Acid, Ergadenylic Acid Deficiency- Decreases RNA, ADP, and ATP synthesis, inhibits breakdown of food into energy, reduces hormone function. Good Sources- Yeast Discussion- This nucleotide is still listed as a "Nutrient" by the Merck Index.

  • However*

Inositol is a compound that has been known about for a long time, but it wasn’t until 1940 that scientists first realized that it was an essential nutrient. In fact, this sugar-like substance is one of the water-soluble B vitamins. In humans, it’s found in the liver, kidney, skeletal system and heart muscle. It is also present in the leaves and seeds of many plants. is also sometimes called Vitamin B8. Clinical applications for inositol are mostly related to treatment of mental conditions. Studies suggest that inositol is as effective as one prescription medication in treating depression.(1) Meanwhile, it may be useful in the treatment and prevention of neurological disorders associated with diabetes.(2) It may also provide support for people with obsessive compulsive disorder and for those who experience panic attacks.(3, 4, 5) 1 Benjamin J, et al. Inositol Treatment in Psychiatry. Psychopharmacol Bull. 1995;31(1):167-75 2 Salway JG, et al. Effect of Myo-inositol on Peripheral-nerve Function in diabetes. Lancet. Dec1978;2(8103):1282-84. 3 Fux M, et al. Inositol Treatment of Obsessive-compulsive Disorder. Am J Psychiatry. Sep1996;153(9):1219-21. 4 Benjamin J, et al. Double-blind, Placebo-controlled, Crossover Trial of Inositol Treatment for Panic Disorder. Am J Psychiatry. Jul1995;152(7):1084-86. 5 Carey PD, Warwick J, Harvey BH, Stein DJ, Seedat S. Single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) in obsessive-compulsive disorder before and after treatment with inositol. Metab Brain Dis. Jun2004;19(1-2):125-34.

Vitamin C Overdosing

I haven't found any studies that conclude overdosing on vitamin C can lead to kidney stones... a lot of talk, but no studies.

synthetic vitamins

Can some chemist or biochemist please add something about the difference between naturally ocurring and synthetic vitamins/minerals? If you sell vitamins/mineral supplements, then your contributions are not objective. There are many "scientific" articles that claim great benefits from consuming supplements (such as preventing cancer), then the article is followed by an advertisement about their great vitamin/mineral supplements and how their prices can't be beat.

Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Vitamin/Archive 1 has failed, for the following reason:

Thank you for a very informative article. Unfortunately, it does not meet the Good Article standards. The lead is too long and does not summarize the article in any way. (see WP:LEAD) Also, several of the sections have no inline references at all (for example, History) and the reference section is a mix of formal footnotes and bibliography. Please bring it back again when you've had a chance to work on it some more. --CTSWyneken(talk) 01:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)]]
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