Talk:Visual kei

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[edit] Incorrect Facts

Since my edit was reverted, and the person who reverted it seemingly knows -nothing- of actual VK, I'm placing my comments here.

Revert: Visual kei is popular with teenage girls here in Japan, and many of the artists are major pop stars (Gackt, etc). At the last VK concert I went to, almost all the audience was mid-teens.

1) Really now? In the online communities, such as mixi, they're mostly 20+, with only a few that are 17-19. I have never seen anyone on there younger than 17 that is into VK.

2) Have you really been to a Visual Kei concert? Considering you mentioned Gackt, I'm inclined to believe otherwise. Do you even know what Visual Kei actually is? and many of the artists are major pop stars (Gackt, etc). No one in VK are major pop stars. VK is an underground, mainly indies scene in case you haven't noticed. Gackt is J-pop and only that. Some people may stretch it to put him under J-rock. However, he hasn't been VK since Malice Mizer.

3) I'd like to know just what VK concert this is you went to, also. Everyone I've spoken with that's been to actual lives in Japan (Dir en grey, Nightmare, Phantasmagoria, other Under Code, etc) say that the majority of them are older girls, 20+ years old. The Japanese Phantasmagoria fan I met was 24, and she also said the exact same thing. Most of them are office ladies, not school kids. Know one big reason why? School kids don't have time to go to lives, VK or not, if they care about school. Out of them maybe only 1% don't care about school. (Remember, this is Japan, not America) Mostly the younger teens aren't all that interested in it, anyway. Most of them are into pop, like.. Gackt, for one, and the boy bands.

4) And yet again, Kuroyume's been left out. You do realize that without them, Dir en grey probably would -not- exist? They were very popular as VK and after they dropped the VK both. They deserve mention.

5) Gothic lolita is not a sub-genre of Visual Kei. It never has been -- it's a fashion style and ONLY that. Some members may use that fashion, but that does not make it a sub-genre. It should be edited to read something like the following:

Within the field of Visual Kei are several 'sub-genres', including EroGuro, Angura Kei, Nagoya kei, Oshare kei, and more; all which form particular visual styles.

All of those that I mentioned are sub-genre, unlike "Gothic Lolita". Examples: eroguro: Merry (I honestly can't think of any more right now, though Cali Gari could probably be considered such, too.). Angura kei: MUCC, Cali Gari, lab., metronome, guruguru eigakan. Nagoya kei: deadman, lynch., gullet, guruguru eigakan. Oshare kei: Antic Cafe, baroque (who started Oshare), Lolita23q, Henzel, Charlotte and tons more. Some fall under 2 categories, as well.

As you can see, unlike the original author of this article, I actually DO know what I'm talking about.

But no matter what, this article needs SERIOUS revision. Not only is it wrong in several parts but it's giving others incorrect information, which is not what wiki is for. I attempted to fix it by removing the incorrect facts and rewording it to make more sense only to have it reverted, because someone thinks Gackt is VK now. Nice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Visual_Kei&diff=42910255&oldid=42554487 Compare for yourself, if you'd like.


Hey man, you're right about that. Kuroyume is a very important band in VK. Also, this girl who keeps vandalizing the article needs to lay off. It's also nice to know that the Japanese wikipedia article(s) (and in fact much of the japanese music scene) disagree strongly with her about Kuroyume's "Lack of Popularity". Even though many bands in VK went major, they are only a small portion of the J-Rock scene. It is sad to see how so many people are under the impression that VK is the majority of J-Rock, and any Japanese can tell you otherwise. There are legendary non-visual metal groups besides X-Japan, like LOUDNESS, who in fact influenced X. And Luna Sea isn't exactly "general J-rock". When you compare most of their earlier albums against their last few CDs, they sound very different and darker than their later, more mainstream stuff, they had distinctive sound, which alot of following visual bands imitated, even moreso with Kuroyume. "J-Rock" is a very broad term. It doesn't just mean Luna Sea or X, it can even mean the Ulfuls, Oblivion Dust, Mad Capsule Markets, Boowy, or other famous non-visual groups.
Although I must also note that age shouldn't be an argument in this case. There are probably younger VK fans, but you're right that in Japan it's mostly girls. But even in America, there are more female VK fans than males, (although moreso a male audience than japan's).
I agree and am tired of taking this shit on wikipedia. This article has always pissed me off and it's about time we did something about it, besides allowing some fangirl to revert everything. Why not post a translation of the Japanese version of the article?
I don't think anyone is saying VK is the biggest part of the J-rock scene, if that is not clear from the article, you can change it! I think you want the article to sound too much adult and underground. I am sorry if you don't believe me, but for example, I know that most of the girls who dress up as VK bands in Harajuku are at junior high school or high school (I was one of them). At concerts by VK bands there are so many many high school girls, the majority of the audience for sure (again, I was one). Indies bands are a big part of the scene, but some of them still play concerts to 1000 or more people, that is not really "underground". Also, saying Luna Sea is J-rock is not the same as saying all J-rock is like Luna Sea. Please take Gackt out of the article if you like (I don't like him). But L'arc en Ciel are "Visual Rock" at least, and Glay started as a very big visual kei band and they were probably the number one major J-rock band when they still had a very VK image around 1998. And I'm sorry about Kuroyume, they are quite important to the scene..I just don't like it when people think these kind of bands are "goth" (maybe I thought so too until I went to England and got into real goth music). I won't touch the article more, so please fix it how you like, but I suggest one day to go around Harajuku and see all the junior high school girls buying the VK posters. (I still have a poster of an old VK band called "Pleur", I bought when I was 14!!)
Hi, You are right that "gothloli" is not a "genre" of VK. I don't know who added that. However, there is no "original author" of this article. It is a mix of many many people adding things, so it is quite confusing. But please believe me, schoolkids have enough time to go to many live concerts, I did! (and I cared about school too). Most "bangyaru" in Tokyo are in high school, especially for "underground" VK bands (the bands can be pretty young too!!) I started going to concerts when I was 14 at junior high school. I could go to lots of indies concerts in Kouenji and Shinjuku, often they were on Sunday afternoons. Major concerts were usually midweek, around 7pm . You are right there are many indies VK bands, but there are many popular bands too. For most people, bands like Pierrot and Dir en grey are VK bands and they are major, and mostly have young fans. Malice Mizer were not a top-10 rock band, but they were very popular in their own genre. They played much bigger lives than some internationally famous underground J-rock bands (like Melt Banana or Guitar Wolf). Gackt or Glay is, rigth or wrong, considered part of VK scene by many people (I think they are pop though) so maybe they should be in the article to show the pop side of VK. Also many VK fans also like Gackt or Glay. I don't think it is good to only focus on minor bands or minor scene that is confusing for the reader (Nagoya kei? I haven't heard many bands from Nagoya recently- is this really a very different style from Osaka or Tokyo VK bands?). Anyway, someone made the article look a lot better so thanks to that person. Maybe you can make it better to read and include your knowledge!! You know a lot of bands. Please try to write about well-known and important bands, not just the bands you like..
Nagoya kei really is its own style. I really can't describe it, but if you look at the bands I listed, listen to their music, and such, you can get an idea of this type of style. I only listed the ones I know well, and that are used by the Japanese fans. I know there are even more than just those, but the listed ones are the popularly-known sub-genre of VK. As for recent ones, lynch. is one, deadman is another (though they're now on hiatus). It used to be much bigger a few years back. :/
Why don't we change it to "female audience 15 - 25". Definately the fan base is female, but saying "oh its just young teenage girls" seems to be inplying a distain for VK. In fact, this whole article doesn't seem Neutral Point of View but another "VK is just some stupid momement thats dead" type review with a bit of name dropping. The japanese fans I know in Japan are 20 and over. I also think it depends on the concert, the younger bands (ex: AnCafe) tend to have younger fans, older bands tend to have older fans or a mix. I have read reviews where old ladies showed up to concerts xDDDDD amusing the fans. I just realized I'm not logged in I'll have to come sign this later. Denaar 14:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, 100% It really needs to be re-written, and split up in past VK (80's and 90's, seperate, too) and current VK, cause all I see in it is the old VK mentioned. VK isn't dead, it's just changing and evolving, and that needs to be described in this article, too.

[edit] Confusion in Definition

Honestly, the whole definition of Visual Kei is admittedly confused. There are 2 meanings to Visual Kei.

1. A Japanese band who focuses on an elaborate image.

2. A style of music originating in the early-mid 90's which was unique among Visual-type bands.

A more intellectual explanation is given on this specific website: http://www.proxemics.net/honyaku/history.html (further research can prove the accuracy in said article)

Although note that this article refers to traditional VK music during that era. Yes, each band had their own niche, but each of the bands played or did at one time play within similar, communing elements. The goth/metal/punk hybrid was a standard of most bands at the time that was in some shape or form integrated into the music and this style is still played today, and primarily a signature styling among the Visual Kei bands. MANY japanese music stores and websites even categorize said music as "Visual", as it has always been related to it's progenitors, the VK bands. However, you must remember the 2 definitions of Visual Kei music, as the image and music became somewhat divorced in recent years (not entirely, though) but that, as I said, is still a popular and defining style among the underground visual rock community. Just as the article said, some bands are only labeled VK because of the image.

If you have any other questions or comments, feel free to reply. :)

--Ark~Magic @ 10:34 PM, September 11, 2005

Is there any place that has a backup of kurai's history of visual kei? It's arguably one of the best articles about it on the web. It would be nice if it could be quoted in this entry. -- Anonymous @ 12:02 PM, December 2, 2006

[edit] Deaths in Visual Kei

I’ve added a section about the deaths that happened in Visual Kei during the 90s, I only know the basics so if anything needs fixing or information added, feel free to do so. - Deathrocker 16:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the information is more vaild on the respective band pages? Such as Piass's and Hide's pages. Hide's death had big enough reprecussions maybe to be discussed here, but its already fleshed out on Hide's page. People die a lot in all genres of music and literature. Denaar 02:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Almost single handedly"

The reason added a 'fact' tage for this is that as it's presented as a quote it needs to be referenced. Who said it? When did they say it? Are they notable? At the moment it's not sourced at all. I'm going to add the tage back becuase we can't present quotes as important to the article as that without any sourcing. ShizuokaSensei 02:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to source. I don't know of anyone besides the Western fan community that thinks that, no one's ever said it officially, and it really comes down to a folk belief of sorts - it's in the collective consciousness because that's what someone told someone else, etc. That's why I changed the beginning of the sentence, to make it clear that those are "so-called" quotes rather than "direct statement" quotes. Moreover, it's only important to the article in that it is a disprovable misconception. MSJapan 13:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Look at the Japanese wikipedia. Most Visual Kei bands have a "theme" or "mission statement" (What is your band's theme is a standard interview question by most Visual Kei Magazines). X Japan's statement was 「PSYCHEDELIC VIOLENCE CRIME OF VISUAL SHOCK」. The genre name "Visual Kei" was taken from this statement. Its hard to source because there isn't much printed material on VK outside of Japanese Magazines/other media. Denaar 02:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

The article has been rewritten to better conform with WP:V. The notion of visual kei being a music genre, along with the corresponding infobox and category inclusions has been removed, the reasoning being that bands with visual kei aesthetics do not necessarily share any stylistic traits in regards of their music and that occurrences of such looks also appear in other media. - Cyrus XIII 11:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Should there be a blurb about X Japan sort of bringing the VK movement to the attention of the Japanese mainstream? I guess I don't have any evidence at the moment, but my impression was that they had brought attention to the VK movement when they released Blue Blood and became famous. Incidentilly, they (or at least Yoshiki) also produced many of the other notable VK bands that followed (Glay, Luna Sea, Dir en Grey), with I think the exception of Malice Mizer. I'm pretty sure I can find a source on that, but I don't have one yet. Should it go up, or would my effort be wasted? Vespertilio 05:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
  • While I agree the article needs a re-write, I'm not sure if wiping the whole thing clean was the way to go. I would argue that Visual is a musical genre, but its such a long established genre that it has a lot of diversity. Look at an article on punk or metal. If you knew nothing about those styles of music, and listened to random sampling of bands that are considered "punk"... you would be unable to determine what punk is (don't even get into all the "core" subcategories there!). Visual is much the same. There have been different "movements" within visual that have different styles of playing. Also many bands begin as a "visual" band, but change styles along the way. Denaar 05:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You might be right about everything you wrote but while the punk rock article offers reliable sources for its content, the old one about visual kei did not have any of that sort. Verifiability is one of the key principles of an encyclopedia, which should not be a place to collect personal views, preconceptions, or widespread rumors and hearsay. Hence this request goes out to you, Vespertilio and anyone else interested: Go out and look for references, with WP:V and WP:RS in mind, because this subject isn't any less deserving of a decent article than all the others on Wikipedia. - Cyrus XIII 07:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I've located an article from Billboard(magazine?), dated september 5th, 1992, that discusses Warner Bros., MMG, and Atlantic Records' plans to launch X Japan (called "X from Japan" in the article) worldwide. This seems like a pretty good indication of their popularity, I'd say they're easily the first visual kei band to receive this kind of recognition. I could not however, locate an internet copy of this article, just a scanned image of it. Would that be sufficient enough evidence? I'm not sure how much else we'd be able to find >_>... Vespertilio 17:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) I rephrased and expanded the new paragraph, as the Billboard article does not quite address the seminal influence X Japan might have had on visual kei. But it's still a the best place to start when it comes to international efforts by these bands. - Cyrus XIII 21:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit, I like it better this way. Vespertilio 02:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
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