Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Village pump policy discussion   post
The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
Shortcut:
WP:VPP
Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar). Please add new topics to the bottom of this page. Archive
Village Pump
Village pump
News (post)
Policy (post)
Technical (post)
Proposals (post)
Assistance (post)
Miscellaneous (post)

Contents

This talk page is automatically archived by Werdnabot. Any sections older than 5 days are automatically archived to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive. Sections without timestamps are not archived.

Discussions older than 5 days (date of last made comment) are moved here. These discussions will be kept archived for 9 more days. During this period the discussion can be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate. After 9 days the discussion can only be found through the page history.

[edit] Discussion of articles with "allegations"in their name

Definition of "allegation":

al·le·ga·tion /ˌælɪˈgeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-i-gey-shuhn] *Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun

  • 1. the act of alleging; affirmation.
  • 2. an assertion made with little or no proof.
  • 3. an assertion made by a party in a legal proceeding, which the party then undertakes to prove.
  • 4. a statement offered as a plea, excuse, or justification.
  • [Origin: 1375–1425; late ME < L allégātiōn- (s. of allégātiō), equiv. to allégāt(us), ptp. of allégāre to adduce in support of a plea (al- al- + -légāre, deriv. of léx law; see legal) + -iōn- -ion]
  • —Synonyms 1, 2. charge, accusation; claim, contention.

(from dic.com)

Wikipedia's official guidelines regarding the use of the term:

Alleged (along with allegedly) and purported (along with purportedly) are different from the foregoing in that they are generally used by those who genuinely have no predisposition as to whether the statement being cited is true or not. Newspapers, for instance, almost universally refer to any indicted but unconvicted criminal as an alleged criminal. Therefore, there is no neutrality problem with using them. However, there may be a problem of ambiguity—they should only be used where the identity of the alleger is clear.

...

O.J. Simpson allegedly murdered his ex-wife and a friend of hers in 1994. [In the context of crimes, alleged is understood to mean "alleged by government prosecutors".]

(Taken from WP:WTA#So-called.2C_supposed.2C_alleged.2C_purported)

Currently on Wikipedia, there are some articles with that word in their article name. Noted:

and on and on. Please see this google search to find lots more

These articles discuss the allegations, and then give examples of when the term is used.

But, there are also articles like this:

etc.

So I was wondering, what is the current status of these articles? I don't think it makes sense for some articles to have "allegations" in the title, while others don't. I think either they all should, or they all shouldn't. Thoughts? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

How does Holocaust fit into your list? --Dschwen 20:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It fits because the Holocaust is alleged to have happened. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not "alleged" to have happened, it did happen. WP:V applies here, as I explain below. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 20:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
According to the definition of alleged, it has been alleged to happen. There is a considerable minority of the world which do not believe the holocaust occured. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Speaking frankly here, I think this was a productive discussion until you made your last point. Obviously there are events that are universally acknowledged by scholars as real and should be treated as such (e.g. the Holocaust) and there are interpretations of historical events (e.g. most of the items of the first list) that are inherently allegations. We need to have a discussion about "criticism of x" and "allegations of x" articles, but if we can't distinguish between things that are certainly true and things that are certainly alleged we'll end up with either "Allegations that the Earth is Flat" or "Controlled Demolition of the World Trade Center". GabrielF 22:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
You say "certainly true". WHO decides whether something is certainly true? Sources? Wikipedia editors? "Certainly true" is something which is contestable in and of itself. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 16:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
WP:V is critical here. "Allegations" is perfectly acceptable in article titles where the article exists to document an unverifiable, albeit possibly noteworthy, belief. An example of this would be Allegations of Israeli apartheid. The existence of "Israeli apartheid" apartheid at all is itself quite questionable, but the question being posed by many on the political far left and political far right is a valid subject for Wikipedia to document. The ideas themselves are unverifiable and thus cannot be accepted as fact within Wikipedia, but the argument can certainly be made that the allegations are noteworthy enough to justify an article about the allegations themselves. Conversely, Islam and antisemitism, Christianity and antisemitism and The Holocaust are not allegations, they are historical (and in the case of the former two, also present) realities. Thus, per WP:V, they can be considered fact.
I'd argue that the "State terrorism" articles ought to be moved to "allegations of..." but beyond that, it looks good the way it is now.
The subject of the article is coalesced in its title; "Allegations" articles document the allegations themselves, whereas non-"allegations" articles document facts. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 20:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by "unverifiable". What is "unverifiable" about Israeli apartheid? For some people, it is considered a fact. Opposite goes for Holocaust. Some people don't consider the holocaust of fact. I think these selective titles may be an example of Systematic bias (Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias) --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It fails WP:V and is therefore unverifiable per Wikipedia standards and policies. The criteria for what makes information verifiable for the purposes of Wikipedia is clear and remarkably simple. Remember that Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I have seen no exceptional sources suggesting "Israeli apartheid" exists and therefore it fails WP:FRINGE. Sorry. Systemic bias isn't an issue here, it's Wikipedia's content policies that you have a problem with. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 20:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Exceptional according to who's definition? I could say "I have seen no exceptional sources suggesting that "holocaust" exists and therefore it fails WP:FRINGE". --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I definitely do not want to start titling articles like Holocaust with the words "allegations of" before it. To me, "allegations" a term that should be reserved for very specific legal instances. In the case of "Israeli apartheid", it's a descriptive term that's in use in different political circles. Those who use it are not alleging that Israel is an apartheid state, they are insisting it is. That term and its associated debate deserve representation in an article titled after the concept itself. The controversy can be discussed in the article, much as it is in Islamofascism. Tiamut
Tiamut, I must say that was my point in bringing up Holocaust. Thanks for putting it in better words than I have. I also would NOT like to see Allegations of the Holocaust. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Note how Allegations of the Holocaust doesn't even redirect to Holocaust. I just realized that now. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Nor does Allegations of Holocaust exist. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
An "exceptional" source is defined according to Wikipedia consensus. The applications policy are subjective, but the fact is nonetheless they are subjective of consensus more than they are subjective of any individual editor. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly my point. The consensus is subject to systematic bias. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
So what are you suggesting? Destroying WP:V and WP:CON because they don't allow for the views of a political fringe to be accepted as fact in Wikipedia articles? I'm sorry, but no one will go for that. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I find it extremely offensive that you consider Israeli apartheid as fringe; notable scholars such as Noam Chomsky have spoken of it. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, look at WP:FRINGE. It has the apollo moon hoax, creation science, and the paul is dead hoax as examples. Are you seriously suggesting that the discrimination towards Palestinians in the occupied territories is equivalent to those nonsense theories? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Official discrimination by the Israeli government with the intent of wiping out the Palestinian population over a long period of time so that the Jews can have all of Israel as God intended, then they will expand their colonial empire from the Nile to the Euphrates as the Bible says and destroy all who stand in their way? Yes, I am saying that argument is as credible those nonsense theories. Sorry if I sound condescending, but if you want something treated as fact in Wikipedia it must conform with WP:V and not fall into the category of WP:FRINGE. If you don't like Wikipedia's policies, you have two choices:
  1. Don't edit. There's no mandate from god or from your government (wherever that may be) compelling you to edit Wikipedia.
  2. Propose changes to policy. If you think policies get in the way of Wikipedia being successful and accurate, propose changes to them. Policies are not implicitly "perfect", but they're all we have at the moment. If you have a better approach or a better way, propose it and see if it gains consensus. Either way, if you want to edit you have to follow the policies that do have consensus.
Editting Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right. Whether or not you follow policy in your editting is the prime criterion for determining whether or not you deserve that privilege. Just because it is given by default does not mean you are owed it; and if you don't like our policies, and decide that you don't want to follow them while editting, it may be taken away. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 14:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Telling me "don't edit" is inane. Please don't be a total dick and tell me to go away. How would you like it if I told you "don't edit". Your belief that Israeli apartheid is WP:FRINGE is just that; a belief. Also, last time I checked, this is the village pump regarding policy, so instead of saying "follow policy", why don't we discuss the policies instead? That's the whole fucking point of even bringing this up.
Also, I don't like your condescending attitude (as evidenced on this page) towards me. Please read WP:AGF. Thanks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 16:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Even Israeli apartheid should not have "allegations" in the title. It's superfluous, non-neutral and unprofessional. We should write in an objective style without implying a point-of-view. — Omegatron 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Roughly speaking, if the subject of the article is just the allegations, then it may be appropriate to use that in the title - realistically, Allegations of Islamofacism should be a subarticle of Islamofascism - where the parent article explains what it is, while the daughter article talks about who's been accused of it, why they've been accused, how they've responded, et cetera. Generically, you'd only split off the daughter if the parent is too big. Labelling everything with qualifiers like allegations because the subject isn't completely agreed upon is dumb, because no subject is completely agreed upon. Would anyone take the encyclopaedia seriously if we had an article called Allegations of Gravity with Gravity as a redirect to it? And yet generically putting allegations of in the title of contraversial articles will lead to that sort of thing - if you dig, you'll see every article is contraversial - Allegations of the Coriolis Force, Allegations of Pizza Delivery and so on ... WilyD 21:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Having reviewed it, I see Allegations of Israeli Apartheid is probably well titled - it just talks about who makes the allegations and why, it doesn't talk about the Israeli apartheid hardly at all. WilyD 21:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Indeed, a huge amount of the article is devoted to the allegations. Jayjg (talk) 21:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • So Wily, do you think it is permissible to separate Allegations of Israeli Apartheid from Israeli apartheid? And also, should then, conspiracy theorists be allowed Allegations of the Holocaust (the content could be merged from Holocaust denial) That's even more interesting of a title which raises questions. Can we have an Israeli apartheid denial article as well? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
        • I don't know enough about the subject to say whether WP:NAME would place the article at Israeli Apartheid or like Israeli treatment of the Palestinians or whatever. Generically, if Allegations of Israeli Apartheid got too long, you might need to spin out Israeli Apartheid Denial - although again, I'm not sure this is the preferred term per WP:NAME. Maybe it is. I think I understand the generic issue here because I've seen it come up in other places a few times, but I don't know enough about Israeli politics to make off the cuff specific statements. WilyD 21:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Of the above examples, Zionism and Racism allegations seems like it shouldn't have allegations at the end, for instance. WilyD 21:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Going even further with this point, there's even Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial. Can we have Criticism of Israeli apartheid denial as well? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
        • If you can't differentiate between historical fact and political rhetoric, then there's hardly a point in responding. The Holocaust was a terrible historical event. "Israeli apartheid" is a political epithet. Please try to use less egregiously offensive and, frankly, silly arguments in the future. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 21:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
By making an article about a subject, we are making an implicit claim that it exists, and that claim must pass the acid test of WP:V. If it cannot pass that acid test, it cannot be on Wikipedia. "Israeli apartheid" cannot be verified to exist, and therefore an article suggesting it does has no place here. We can, however, discuss the allegations made by some that it does exist, which is what we do. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree with your "implicit claim that it exists". We have articles on creation, aliens, etc. etc. and not Allegations of creation, Allegations of aliens, etc. etc. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The subject of an article could exist in fiction or in popular thought--The only thing that matters here is that it can be verified that it exists therein. I can verify, by checking the first Star Wars film, that there is indeed a character called Luke Skywalker. I cannot verify, however, that "Israeli apartheid" exists in any world, real or fictional. Remember, Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Israel apartheid DOES exist in popular thought. Many notable scholars have used the term. Also, just because it's not popular where you live doesn't mean that it isn't popular in other places. Again, an example of Systematic bias.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
          • "If you can't differentiate between historical fact and political rhetoric, then there's hardly a point in responding. The Israeli apartheid is a terrible historical event. "The Holocaust" is a political epithet. Please try to use less egregiously offensive and, frankly, silly arguments in the future. Thanks."--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So...are you proposing a page move or what? If you are, just make your proposal at WP:RM and be done with it. The discussion here seems more like soapboxing. --Minderbinder 21:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not proposing anything, besides consistency. I don't want to swarm WP:RM with several hundred pages with "allegations" in them. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
"Consistency" isn't really something that can be proposed as a blanket rule of all articles. "Allegations" is appropriate when the topic dictates it, there's no reason all or none should have it. What are you hoping to accomplish, getting the word removed from articles that have it, or adding it to others? --Minderbinder 21:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
As I said, either they all have "Allegations of" in their titles, or none of them do (except in legal uses of the term). Either way is fine with me. (but admittedly with a bias towards those words being removed). --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Even if you could somehow define "they all" whatever that is (All articles? All articles anyone disputes?), it's never gonna happen. You're tilting at a windmill here (or at least making your stink somewhere trafficked enough to get your ranting read by a few people). Nothing to see here folks, let's stop feeding the troll. --Minderbinder 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Any article that has WP:NOTABLE notable disputes should have "Allegations of..." in the title heading. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Any article that has WP:NOTABLE disputes should be brought to WP:AFD, and then the matter should be settled. WilyD 21:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
My mistake. Didn't mean to have the "WP" showing.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, don't be a WP:DICK by accusing me of being a troll. I have been on Wikipedia for quite a while now, and have no history of blocks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not know where this is headed. but it seems to me that there are very clear cases where the word "allegation" can be used. Leave these to be discussed in the specific articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Here's how I think we should make the distinction between allegation and a fact.

  • If the event/condition/issue is debated by reliable (preferably scholarly) sources, then it should be an "allegation" or "controversy".
  • But if the event is disputed only by wiki users, on unreliable sources, then wikipedia considers it as fact, but gives all POVs due weight.

What do you gusy think about that?Bless sins 22:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

    • No, if the article discusses X it should be named X - if it discusses allegations about X, who makes those allegations and why, they history of doing this, then Allegations of X should be used. Allegations of Calculus, for instance, should not give a history of the development of Rienmann sums - Calculus or History of Calculus should do that. Meawhile, an article about how Crackpot McGee claims calculus doesn't exist because otherwise he won't meet course requirements at the University of Assbacks, Ontario that results in a lot of press coverage might reasonably be titled Allegations of Calculus. WilyD 22:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wily, that sounds about right. But look at the Islam and antisemitism article, which is filled with allegations that Islam is antisemitic. What do you think of moving it to Islam and antisemitism allegations?--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

    • I think you're on to something, but don't know if I follow your point on "But if the event is disputed only by wiki users, on unreliable sources, then wikipedia considers it as fact" . Can you elaborate? Majoreditor 22:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • That part is right, but the first point isn't. The article should only Allegations of ... if it ignores the subject and only talks about the debate about whether or not the thing exists. Allegations of North America should not have the population of North America - that's rightly placed in North America, but the debate about whether Columbus was in a new land or Japan might reasonable be titled Allegations of the Amercas. WilyD 22:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Alright, I think I understand your view now. I'm sorry if I come off as condescending by asking too many questions. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Not at all - better to ask too many questions and understand each other better than necessary than the reverse. WilyD 22:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

(Resetting indent). There's an important distinction here. At least 90% of the facts that give rise to the idea of apartheid are not under dispute - characterizing it as "apartheid" is an interpretation that by its very nature is subjective. The Holocaust is a proper name for a series of specific events that are accepted by 99.99% of anyone who calls himself/herself a historian. (Oh, and Noam Chomsky quite clearly holds fringe positions, and isn't even a historian, nor - as it turns out - such a great linguist). --Leifern 00:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Hey, just because Chompsky is terrible at a lot of things doesn't mean he's a bad linguist - the reason people listen to him when he hasn't a clue what he's talking about is because he's such a good linguist. Anyways, I sort of agree - realistically, Israeli Apartheid should redirect to Treatment of Palestinians in Israel or whatever, not Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, which seems to be the right article at the right place. WilyD 00:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've long believed that we should avoid using the word "allegations" in article titles. There will obviously be the need for some exceptions (eg. the 1993 Michael Jackson article), but the word is too easly co-opted for political ends.

The Allegations of Israeli Apartheid title is a bad compromise, and was chosen during highly politicized negotiations last summer. At the time of the article's creation, the concept was relatively marginal. Since then, it has been referenced by a former American president, a United Nations report, and countless journalists. And yet, the "allegations" title has been retained, due to ongoing political divisions on the page itself.

It may be noted, by way of contrast, that the disputed concept of New antisemitism is not referred to as Allegations of new antisemitism, notwithstanding similar objections that have been raised around the concept's viability. CJCurrie 03:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

CJCurrie, that's a good point. I've added New antisemitism to the list uptop. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Categorizing the Holocaust as an "allegation" undermined your own cause. Speaking of which, this whole proposal is an attempt to make a WP:POINT. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Again, important distinction here. The term "New Antisemitism" doesn't attribute antisemitism to a particular group, or entity. If the title had been Robert Fisk's antisemitism (and I'm not claiming he's antisemitic), the comparison would have been apt. --Leifern 10:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't attack the user, who is not (at least here) violating WP:POINT - he's trying to make a good point in a constructive, nondisruptive way. There is an inconsistancy that comes from editors who try to apply WP:NPOV without having read it. WilyD 13:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Getting away from what is by definition a POV argument... let's look at this with complete dispassion: In naming articles on Scientific topics, we do not add "Allegations of..." in front of theories held to be factual by mainstream consensus. We should do the same for historical events (or theories) held to be factual by mainstream consensus. Since the vast majority of historians hold that the holocaust did in fact occur, we should not lable it as an "Allegations of..." article. Now, there might be some argument that the opposing view could be an "Allegations" article (ie "Allegations that the Holocaust did not happen")... except that such an article already exists in a much more NPOV manner as Holocaust denial.
In fact, that's why I tried to talk about topics where Allegations of X sound funny. But I will say on scientific topics, we don't use Allegations of ... for non-mainstream stuff either, or even false stuff. MOND is not Allegations of MOND, Caloric Theory is not Allegations of Caloric Theory, Aether is not at Allegations of Aether and so on ... WilyD 15:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I do think we need to think about the propriety of having any "Allegations of" articles... so many of them are thinly veiled POV forks... but that is a different issue. Blueboar 13:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Blueboar, I understand your concerns. But what about science which has mainstream consensus among scientists, but not among the general populace? I think it would be incredibly silly and stupid to have an Allegations of Evolutionary theory article. As gracenotes said, I think that if there is relevant, sourced, notable dispute of a subject, then the article should not allege it as a fact. For instance the holocaust is considered fact by the vast majority of historians. But there is a notable minority which disagree with the extent of the holocaust. But that does not mean that the Holocaust article should be moved to Allegations of the Holocaust. And the holocaust itself is such a controversial subject that a move to "Allegations..." would be offensive. And that is my point with the Israeli apartheid article. Most historians agree that Israel has isolated and separated the Palestinians in the occupied territories. But there is a notable minority (mostly from the United States and Israel) that claim there is no persecution of Palestinians. But moving the article (as it currently stands) to "Allegations..." is offensive. As user Tiamut earlier above said: "Those who use it are not alleging that Israel is an apartheid state, they are insisting it is. That term and its associated debate deserve representation in an article titled after the concept itself." --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Those who use the phrase are still making allegations, regardless of whether or not they believe them to be true. Jayjg (talk) 14:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I find the allegation that I am violating WP:POINT to be entirely self-defeating. The whole point of the Village pump is to discuss issues BEFORE doing something major. If I had went and move all those articles to "Allegations of..." (or vice versa), that would have been a WP:POINT.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

"Most historians agree that Israel has isolated and separated the Palestinians in the occupied territories."
The article isn't titled "allegations that Israel has isolated the Palestinians", the article is titled "allegations of Israeli apartheid". Most historians do *not* agree that this isolation/separation constitutes apartheid. Ken Arromdee 19:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I've found this: WP:WTA#So-called.2C_supposed.2C_alleged.2C_purported. Added to top.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Added Pallywood.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You forgot Islamophobia. I added it for you. Jayjg (talk) 14:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. If you find anymore, feel free to add them. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The article Allegations of Israeli Apartheid is, strictly speaking, about the allegations rather than the actuality of any discrimination or colonialism which would be better served by an article entitled something else. At least, that was the reason behind the writing of the article by my understanding. That isn't even considering the compromises that reaching that title entailed. Islamofascism is about the neologism, Islamophobia unfortunately conflates a neologism with a real phenomenon along with allegations of the phenomenon, and New antisemitism is similar. --Coroebus 20:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure why Pallywood is included in this discussion. The article is admittedly problematic - it's a neologism used almost entirely by blogger-activists and promoted in a self-published video essay by an academic working in a personal capacity as a political activist. The notability of the neologism, the video essay and the academic's activism is questionable to say the least - it emphatically isn't widely used or recognised beyond the blogosphere. (See Talk:Pallywood#Notability questions for details - comments from other editors would be very welcome.) However, it seems to me to be in a rather different category from the one that Kirbytime sets out above. -- ChrisO 02:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Although the article itself states that it is about the word "Pallywood", reading the discussion page it seems clear that many users including SlimVirgin and Leifern have decided that they want the article to be about alleged incidences of what might be called Pallywood, hence the dispute about referencing articles that don't even mention the term (e.g. here and here. This is extremely problematic as Wikipedia really shouldn't be adopting partisan neologisms as the titles of articles about things, unless the article is about said neologism. It is one of the main source of conflict on articles such as Allegations of Israeli Apartheid (where the same editors consicuously take the opposite view insisting that the sources must include references to Israeli apartheid) and Islamophobia and Islamofascism. --Coroebus 14:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's time to put all of the "Allegations . . ." articles up for Afd, as they all violate our rules against WP:NOR#Synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position, codified at WP:SYNT.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 21:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Straw poll

Sign under the statement with which you most agree. Discuss in comments section.

[edit] The article titles, as they currently stand, should be changed in some way

  1. --Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 17:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Andeggs 08:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The article titles, as they currently stand, do not need to be changed

  1. --Sefringle 02:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. -- Ken Arromdee 19:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delete all of the "allegations" articles as violative of WP:SYNT

  1. -- MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 18:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment- That makes you part of the first category. --Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 19:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Undecided

  1. NDCompuGeek 13:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC) Give me more time to think about it, although I am kind of tentatively edging towards the "something needs to be changed" side of the house....

[edit] Comments

There is nothing wrong with most of the current titles. The topics which there is serious uncertianty about have alleged in them. The ones where uncertianty is uncertian do not. Calling the Holocaust, for example, alleged, is giving undue weight to antisemites.--Sefringle 02:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The term is so frequently used in newspaper accounts regarding criminal activity, that it by now has acquired that connotation, and should only be used when specifically criminal accusations that have not yet been decided are the topic Many of the uses are more general, and hence inappropriate.DGG 02:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Pages called "alligations" should be about the alligations, pages without should be about the thing. aligations that I am a baboon should be about the claim I am a baboon, baboon should be a page about baboons themselves. It's not saying something is less true, it's just definieing the focus of the article, is it talking about a thing? or talking about talking about a thing?

I agree with you. But the problem is, Zionism and racism redirects to Allegations of zionism and racism Zionism and racism allegations, when they are "allegedly" two different subjects. --Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 21:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia a Laughingstock?

I for one have been too embarrassed and shocked at this Essjay affair over the last week or so to edit at all. Now that I can gather the ability to get on Wikipedia again I must ask the question that has been simmering in all our minds lately:

Is Wikipedia becoming a laughingstock? I mean, the Essjay matter has been reported on all media outlets, including the network nightly news. This sort of unwelcome attention can only attract a flood of people who deride Wikipedia. In fact, I think the ONLY coverage of wikipedia EVER in the media is negative, and plays up our shortcomings in being a reliable encyclopedia. And now academics, the very people who we need to approve of us, are so much further from ever doing that.

Furthermore, I would argue that the last high-profile snafu here, the Siegenthaler affair, has attracted more users who come here to deride us. While some people come to wikipedia curious about our bad publicity and eventually become bona fide contributors, I think the larger percentage of them come here to vandalize and cause trouble. Just think of how much vandalism and disruption have increased exponentially since 2005-06. Thank you for your time. Hallibrah 01:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If Wikipedia is becoming a laughingstock, then what do you suggest we do about it? Captain panda In vino veritas 03:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

So you are agreeing with us that it is becoming a laughingstock? Or is that the general consenus anyway these days here? Hallibrah 03:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, my comment was not directed at whether Wikipedia is a laughingstock or not. As for your question, I would not go so far as to call it a laughingstock, but it is certainly seen quite badly by many people. Captain panda In vino veritas 03:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well since you basically agree that Wikipedia is becoming a laughingstock, what do you think we should do about it? Hallibrah 03:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the ONLY coverage of wikipedia EVER in the media is negative - *rolls eyes*. Whatever. You obviously have some agenda and this thread appears to be a troll. -- Stbalbach 03:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, what is the Essjay affair, and what was the Siegenthaler affair? zadignose 04:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Stblebach, that last comment was not particularly helpful. Please be civil. Hallibrah 04:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're too embarassed to edit, then don't edit. I for one don't care what the rest of the world thinks about Wikipedia: I'm editing for myself. --Carnildo 05:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
For my part, most of those I know have generally gone to Wikipedia when they need a quick bit of information, or a starting point for some in-depth research, just like one would use any encyclopedia. After all the recent events...wait, nothing's changed, the same thing still happens! So I guess not. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. When doing serious research (as opposed to casual reading) Wikipedia is a great place to start, but a poor place to end. Raymond Arritt 06:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

To get an idea of recent reporting of Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Press coverage. Some of it is critical, some of it is positive. That's always been the case. There's also a lot of coverage which doesn't get onto that page. Today I was reading my local TV&Radio magazine (the New Zealand Listener), and in an opinion piece on state housing there's a sentence "By international standards, New Zealand towns ... have a very low density of population ... according to Wikipedia". Some pages later, in an article on spam, the Wikipedia discussion page on palm oil is mentioned. Wikipedia has become an essential part of everyday life for many, who for the most part have never heard of Essjay.-gadfium 06:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As I stated in another thread, usability and practicability are far more important than credibility. This is a matter of what my Mom told me when I was young and trying to face the harshness in the world: "Keep your chins up". The Wikipedia is OUR BABY. We will do with it as we wish, and if others find it useful (and they frequently do!), great, if not, whatever. We will not ever even consider closing shop just because of any degree of external derision. As Dumbya Bush says, "Bring 'em on!". I don't care. Meanwhile, I and many others will continue to contribute and build an increasingly fine and usable encyclopedia. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 02:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Who cares if we're a laughingstock? We're a FUN laughingstock! More to the point, the reason we get lambasted occasionally is not because nobody takes us seriously but rather because people take us far too seriously, not catching on that we really aren't a reliable source. (Besides, who seriously thought Essjay was a professor anyway?) --tjstrf talk 02:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win." (Eric Raymond attributed this to Ghandi) -- llywrch 17:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't need academics, or anyone else engaged in the professional production of information. They see us as a dangerous competitor and a threat to their privileged status. They have been hostile of years, but their hostility has had no meaningful effect. Most intelligent adults I know that have discovered Wikipedia think it is a great resource for their personal use, and that is the main endorsement we should want. Why is there this fixation with what goes on between kids and professors? Let's just forget about them. They aren't relevant to the mainstream adult world. Most adults have put the education system and its issues behind them. Wikipedia should do the same. LukeHoC 00:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia mainly as source of reference

In the world there are some reports about people using Wikipedia as a source of truth. Since anyone can edit, the validity cannot be verified. Hence, school teachers and such are not so happy with the use of Wikipedia for research.

For this reason, I use Wikipedia as a source of reference; if I find something, the most value is in the reference to non-wiki sites like vendors, organisations about the topic, researchers on the topic, books, etc. They have their own level of validity that can be verified.

So if wikipedia is promoted less as an encyclopedia and more as a reference, then it would not have to deal with the validity issue. Users who are looking for information can read up on a topic and afterwareds find useful sources through wikipedia.

This could be implemented by having editors focus on further reference on the topics.

Maybe this idea has already been suggested, in which case my apologies. If you know this is the case, please try and close this thread.

Regards, Philip. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lafeber (talk • contribs) 19:35, 19 March 2007.

Well, Wikipedia classifies itself as an 'encyclopedia', which in itself should imply that it is not designed for serious academic research, but rather, as a general guide and reference. Encyclopedias are by their very nature rarely regarded as reliable academic sources. -- Chairman S. Talk Contribs 09:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
We make a good faith effort to publish authoritative content. While we often fail, especially in the case of hotly contested issues, we should continue to pursue the goal of being an authoritative reference. I have been here now for 5 years and have seen vast improvement. Certainly following up on the references used leads to more knowledge, but our mission is to create reference works. Fred Bauder 18:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
That sounds like the goals that have attracted me. Philip makes a valid point. Any dynamic system is going to give a shifting source of research, by definition. But I wonder if these criticisms are a wider misunderstanding of the "www commons". Many people still regard a webpage as exactly that...a page. That name was only ever meant as a bridge between paper world and digital realm. Wikipedia is neither a Reference or an Encyclopaedia it is a "WIKI - Pedia", a modern, electronic hybrid of both...with both strengths and weaknesses. Some pages are brilliant reference works while others are merely works in progress. DJ Barney 18:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
When I was an university it would never have crossed my mind to use an encyclopedia as a reference. True, my university was one of the most prestigious, but I assumed things were the same elsewhere. Is it really the case that at the average university students give Britannica as a reference in their essays? I would never have guessed that could be the case, but it is what this recurring debate implies. LukeHoC 00:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
A competent author will sometimes find her/himself confronted with a fact that needs a source to verify its accuracy, yet it is not important enough to justify the time to do the research to find that source; she/he must either exclude the fact or find a source that is "good enough" to verify it. (I can list quite a few otherwise reliable books where this has been done.) In those cases, the author may cite an encyclopedia as verification, trusting that up to this point she/he has proven their competence at the craft & hoping the reader will overlook this bending of the rules. However, students (by definition) are still learning the craft of writing; they are expected to follow the rules (e.g. don't cite from encyclopedias) until their instructors say otherwise. -- llywrch 18:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should we have hidden categories?

Sorry if this has been proposed before. People seem to love creating categories, and other people object to having huge indigestible wads of categories at the end of an article. Maybe the answer is to have a short list of visible categories and another link called "More categories". If you click on "more", you see that huge list. For instance, I could imagine the end of Turkey Vulture looking like this (but in blue):

Categories: Cathartidae | Birds of North America | Birds of South America
More categories

If you click on "More categories", you might see:

Categories: Birds of Canada | Birds of the United States | [snip twenty-odd additional countries] | Scavengers | Birds with good senses of smell | Birds commensal with humans | Birds that rock in flight | Birds that breed colonially | Examples of convergent evolution | Species that are imitated by other species | Species that appear in Thornton Burgess's stories | Species with scientific names of uncertain origin | etc., etc.

This would put the power of hypertext at the service of curious users without cluttering up the articles. Why shouldn't somebody who reads that the TV has a good sense of smell wonder what other birds do too? Why shouldn't they get an answer with a scroll and two clicks? Of course people would have to do the work. But there seems to be a strong impulse to work this way; maybe it should be indulged.

By the way, I thought of this when participating in the debate at Category_talk:Biota_by_country, which may need some more thoughts. —JerryFriedman 05:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

  • We are in fact trying to cut down on excessive categorization. See WP:OCAT for details, and if you see an overly-categorized article feel free to drop some of those categories on WP:CFD. >Radiant< 10:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • This is a proposal to allow categories that you and I consider excessive. If they're hidden, we have the advantages of all those categories without the disadvantages. The hidden ones would be those deprecated at WP:OCAT (more or less—categories with only a few members and no room for growth might be forbidden even in hidden form). —JerryFriedman 14:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Having hidden categories is a good idea. Well I do have another proposal which is to re-categorize into flora and fauna by eco-regions described by the WWF (See: Eco-regions) and (See: reason). Luffy487 14:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I do not think that the show/hide system by itself would solve all problems as described. It is easily conceivable to picture the "more categories" display becoming simply too long to read for some articles. For example, imagine categories for every country, state, province, territory, department, division, and oblast where the house sparrow is found. When shown, the category list would be too long to read or use effectively. What is also needed is some type of organization mechanisms for categories that would present the categories in a more easy-to-read fashion. At the moment, categories are simply displayed as a paragraph-like mass of links at the bottoms of pages. Improved category formatting (such as displaying the categories as bulleted lists and sorting them into smaller lists) would help substantially. Coupled with the show/hide options described above, the system could be very useful. Dr. Submillimeter 14:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Not to mention, having hidden categories will just encourage people to overcategorize. People will be adding more categories to the hidden cats than they would have otherwise added to non-hidden cats had hidden cats not existed. I'm talking about the "well, it's hidden anyway, so let's just add the article into every category that technically fits" line of thinking. I don't think it'll be all that helpful - categories are supposed to help with navigation. If you have 20 categories on an article, what are the chances they'll actually be useful to someone? It'll be much better to have just a few categories that are each useful, and readers can look at the categories, then look at the sub/super categories. Then again, i doubt many readers ever look at categories at all, regardless of how many or how few cats there are on an article. Cats is mainly an internal organizational thing for us editors... --`/aksha 15:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not a bad idea, but I think it will just shift the current arguments about what categories are important enough to exist into arguments about what categories are important enough to be visible. And there will still be plenty of categories created that aren't even fit for hiding. Postdlf 16:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, having sections of any sort that could be hidden or shown would I believe be the next evolutionary step to Wikipedia. For being not paper, this place sure does set everything up like it was, having to have a totally separate page for anything that doesn't quite fit in a main article. Owlofcreamcheese 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. Too bad I'm not a programmer and can't do anything to take fuller advantage of WP's non-paper-ness. Various show/hide options (references, for instance) seem like an easy place to start.
To answer a comment above, I don't think this suggestion would end all the arguments, but it might produce a result that would work better for more people.
Anyway, if the present dissatisfaction in some quarters gets worse and more widespread, I hope someone will remember this compromise possibility. —JerryFriedman 05:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
All this would do would be to move the debate from deletion to which articles should be on the main list and which should be extras. LukeHoC 00:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another perspective about categories

When I try to go through categories, I would like to point out another viewpoint here to try and resolve. Often when I go to some categories, I see that there are hundreds (or even thousands!) of articles that are in that category. This sometimes get to be very time consuming to try and find something specific if you are actually going to use the category system to look up a piece of related information.... IMHO the main reason to be using the category system as a reader. The point being is how many people here actually look on page seven (listed 200 articles per page) of the category listing to actually find an article? Even with alphabet bars and other navigational techniques, it becomes something nearly meaningless.

I don't think anything will help with that except 1) careful subcategorization and 2) displaying all the categories on one page so you can use your browser's search tool (when you know the word you're looking for). —JerryFriedman 05:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

See Category:Biography articles of living people for a good example.

My question as it relates to these hidden categories is how would this help at all in this situation? To me, it would cause some of these categories to grow even more substantially. Perhaps there is some minor value added to these sort of monster categories, but I'm not sure what it really is. --Robert Horning 21:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This triggered an impression I've had before... the 200 per page limit is really too low. There is nothing to commend that ceiling number which I can see to justify it save that maybe it provides a bit of server unloading. But compared to a page's length in bytes, the length of any category is relatively trivial, even if huge. Making an educated guess, I'd presume it's because category pages may not be cached as aggressively as main space pages, thus require an on the spot database search for the category at the time of page access. Perhaps this needs re-examined and caching be considered in an quad-divided alphabetized scheme -- so there is a set of four virtual category sub-pages, if you will under any long category. Most of the time I want to search such a list, I get frustrated by not being able to just page down or mouse cursor down. Not being able to page down takes away much of their utility. And I'd double that disdain for the alpha sorted ones using the template.

While I'm making a wish list, add it'd be nice to have a click box on a cat page to display in two or four columns, not just three— where page titles vary suitably, and also another, so their is less vertical whitespace, perhaps switching to a smaller font as well... allowing more of the lists to show. // FrankB 23:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National Library References

Wikipedia is a digital encyclopedia that is composed of multi-authored articles on a great variety of topics.

To write quality articles, one needs reliable resources. Since Wikipedia is an online project, the preference naturally goes out to resources one can check online.

National libraries store quality resources that have been selected and categorized by people who know best how to do this: national librarians.

It is also the librarians who know best what is stored in their libraries. For this reason, it makes sense for them to help authors and readers to find their way to the resources that fit their needs.

However, the guidelines of Wikipedia indicate that people who refer to the resources they (or organizations they represent) store automatically have a conflict of interest.

In short, librarians who refer to resources stored in their libraries have a conflict of interest, and are thus breaking the rules of Wikipedia.

Furthermore, a person or organization who repeatedly adds external links could well be a spammer. (Against current developments, this is an understandable assumption.)

Indeed, this happened in my case. I have been busy adding external links to national library resources, and this led to some disturbance among editors and a blacklisting of the site I was referring to: The European Library. This webservice has also been chosen by the European Commission as technical and organizational foundation for their proposed European Digital Library.

I would like to know how you feel about the following:

1. Wikipedia’s quality would go up if it accepts references from national librarians. Organized library references need to be considered added value, not spam (NB: Several editors have suggested that references are more appropriate than external links.)

2. The references could go either to the “library record” of the cited resource (if applicable showing possibility to view the full resource online) or to more online information (image / short description) when the article is about a so-called ‘treasure’ of a national library. In the latter case, this includes a picture reference.

3. Keeping in mind that The European Library gives centralized and direct access to Europe’s national library resources, representatives of this organization should be allowed to add references to the articles.

4. If needed, we can create a template for making national library references (making further editing unnecessary).

Thanks.Fleurstigter 14:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


REACTIONS


A librarian would have a conflict of interest about the institution they work for but I don't see a conflict over the data they have in there collection (in general, there could be specific cases if the collection is biased). Having someone find a reference for you does not conflict the reference so if the librarian finds a book for you this should not be a problem for you.RJFJR 19:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. They may have a COI over their workplace but not over the content in it. For one thing, COI is a guideline, it has exceptions. For example, would you say that a resident of the USA shouldn't edit the United States article? Also, COI mainly applies to writing about organizations/people who pay you, self-promotion, or campaigning. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 19:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the larger issue here seems to be the spam blacklisting of the site. What we have here is the unilateral action of a small number of admins that has negatively affected the ability of wikipedia editors to accurately write and reference articles. The content of the site in question is academic in nature and should be availible for use. Yet, what we have here is the example of a punitive action by admins... What they have said was "the site was spammed (added to wikipedia articles by employees of the organization) and thus the entire site is blacklist. What they are saying is: We are punishing the EU libraries website because its employees are acting in a way that we don't agree with. Spam blacklisting, like all admin actions that block or otherwise restrict access at wikipedia, should NOT be about punishing, it should be about damage control. I can understand blacklisting a site with no academic content, where such a blacklisting serves to stop the addition of said site to articles; such a blacklisting is not punitive in nature, it is pragmatic. However, we are not dealing with a commercial website here. If the librarians in question are acting in contravention to wikipedia policy, they should be adequately warned, and maybe blocked. But to declare that the site is blacklisted is a punitive measure against the organization in question, saying "We will punish you by not allowing your website at wikipedia". This is cutting of our own noses to spite our faces. The fact that such action can be taken without regard to consensus, and based on the unilateral action of a small number of admins, is a flaw in the spam blacklisting process. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 19:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If it is on the spam blacklist it needs to be talked over at m:Talk:Spam blacklist. There is likely a reason for it, and I'm sure someone there will look it up for you :). I will say it was not blacklisted using en.wikipedia admin tools. —— Eagle101 Need help? 20:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've edited your link to the talk page to fix a minor typo. Adam Cuerden talk 20:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I promised Fleur to wait for some time before I would give my PoV in this case, but I see some answers now, which IMHO slightly misform the situation. This is what happened. I saw Fleurstigter (and 2 IP's) adding links to the external links sections of several sites. Per WP:SPAM:

Main articles: Links normally to be avoided and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest
Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed.

I reverted those and added a warning and an explanation to the user talk page of Fleurstigter (diff of two edits). Fleurstigter emailed me from an email address connected to 'kb.nl' (Dutch Royal Library, Koninklijke Bibliotheek). I also informed her that she had a COI (the other point is technical; the site only works in a couple of browsers, and most of the links were not really directly pertaining to the subject).

At this point Fleurstigter went on, and another user also warned her that what she was doing was spamming (diff). The links were still only added to the external links sections, while the user was repeatedly informed that when the links were used as references, they could be allowed, when taking the policy WP:A in account (this specifically does state things about COI:

See also: Wikipedia:Autobiography and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.
You may cite your own publications just as you would cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you are regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be cautious about excessive citation of your own work, which may be seen as promotional or a conflict of interest; when in doubt, check on the talk page.

So yes, one can cite works one owns (with caution), but IMHO, adding only links to an organisation that one is affiliated with to external link sections is not improving the wikipedia, I regard that as pushing the links in order to advertise or improve the interest of the organisation.

Since after several discussions the additions continued, and additions were mainly performed by IPs and people connected to the European Library, the link was blacklisted on user:shadowbot (note1: this does not affect referencing, shadowbot should not revert when a link is in a reference, only when it is added as a plain link to a document, and reverting shadowbot does not result in another revert; note2: the link is not blacklisted on meta, and that has also never been considered). I hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra T C 21:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Note: The site has already been removed again from the shadowbots blacklist. --Dirk Beetstra T C 21:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


FURTHER

Thank you all for your reactions.

If I understand correctly, we agree that references of The European Library add value to Wikipedia, and that representatives of The European Library are allowed - encouraged maybe - to add them.

Please note, I am using the term 'references' NOT external links

Have a nice afternoon. Thank you.Fleurstigter 13:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Not so fast! You have set up a number of new articles that are not at all encyclopedic in tone, very badly written, and show a complete disregard for WP style and conventions - examples are: Van Hulthem (manuscript), Gospel Book (Ethnike Bibliotheke tes Hellados, Codex 2603),Khitrovo Gospel, Brussels Coin Cabinet, Oktoikh - and plenty more. These are blatently just pegs to hang your links on (the links have now been removed). In some cases (like the last) other articles on exactly the same subjects/books existed, but you did not bother to check. Some of your links added as references to existing articles are equally cavalier. You should realize that articles like this serve little purpose - very few will see them. Nor do they add value to WP. From your user page, and almost all your contributions, it is fairly clear that your only interest in WP is in promoting the European Library, and apparently you are editing WP in your working hours as part of your job. I don't think this helps either WP or the European Library, at least when done as crudely as you have been doing it. I've said elsewhere that it is far preferable to block you (and your colleagues if need be) as editors rather than the European Libraries site - we do this frequently to badly-behaved American high-schools. Just putting your links in as references does not in itself change the situation if you add them in the fashion you have been doing. Also I'm sure that in some cases the better link would direct be to the member institution - British Library etc - rather than through the EL. Just being a reference does not stop a link being spam. Johnbod 18:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello again. I am sorry for giving you the wrong impression. Yes, I started a number of new articles - why? Because I felt these topics are important, and deserved their own articles. I did check. At that time I didn't find other articles.

Earlier I didn't know anything about Wikipedia or how things work here. Now I do. For instance, I understand now that one should not create an article because you think the topic is interesting, and you hope other people agree and help creating a proper article.

Have a nice evening, Fleurstigter 19:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I think this decision is a bit fast, Fleur. I would like to see this subject to be expanded a bit more, since I feel that certain points have not yet been fully addressed. For example, I don't think the subject of the conflict of interest is fully addressed here, or defining the mass additions of links as spam, regardless of the quality or the appropriateness of the page being linked to.
Concerning this, indeed, if a librarian would go into his/her library, grab a book, and add and cite information out of that book into the wikipedia, that person would not have a conflict of interest. Things change when one has that copy available online, and one would, in the reference to the cited work on the page on wikipedia, add a link to that specific online copy. I believe that at that point one does have a conflict of interest. Also, if the link is to a non-unique resource (many libraries have copies of a certain book, though there are some that are unique); is it then appropriate to link to a copy you own (or even, is it appropriate to add such convenience links; I believe this is not covered in a policy or guideline)? And even if the target of the link is appropriate and good, mass-addition of such links is spam, certainly if the person who adds it has an interest in the target of the links. Hope to hear more about this. --Dirk Beetstra T C 21:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
While I agree the articles Fleur wrote were not very good the way they were written, I'd like to stress very strongly that to create articles on topics like these (individual notable historic manuscripts) is a very worthwhile thing to do in principle, and I will warmly welcome Fleur as a Wikipedia editor if she wants to contribute in this field. We have a Wikipedia:Systemic bias in Wikipedia that works against such topics, and there's a huge amount of room for improvement of coverage here. And if we can get well-written articles on interesting manuscripts, then I would not worry too much about "spamming" - what could be more relevant in an article about a book, than a link to the library that holds the book, with a page describing the book? The external pages I saw were certainly informative and link-worthy, and the mere fact that a single editor might add a lot of those links wouldn't constitute a problem for me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I certainly concur that articles are welcome. And of course members of libraries are welcome to help us with first hand information on data that they have, providing they edit with a WP:NPOV. But that indeed means content with references, not only references because we have the information that is mentioned in the wikipedia. And when the library has a unique copy of a book, that is certainly worth a link, no doubt. I will leave it at this, and hope that a lot of new information will be included in the wikipedia. Hope to see you around! --Dirk Beetstra T C 00:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
If Fleur does want to actually contribute, she should start by wikifying the articles she has already started up to the level of a reasonable stub - with links, dates, categories and encyclopedic language. There are plenty of stubs in Category:Illuminated manuscripts she can see the style & terms from. Johnbod 01:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


>>> Hello everybody,

About making references/links, and the things Dirk Beetstra said about this, for instance:

"(..) content with references, not only references because we have the information that is mentioned in the wikipedia"

Why? If you agree that national librarians know good, quality references, why complicate their work and only allow content with references? Isn't a good thing that they are willing to step outside their libraries and tell people where they may find good , reliable info about a particular topic?

The European Library gives access to Europe's national libraries. If the particular item is not online available, this portal tells you where you it is stored. This means that a reference to a library record of The European Library tells you which library/libraries in Europe have it. So.... doesn't this umbrella characteristic make The European Library a great Wikipedia referent?

Greetings, Fleurstigter 13:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Wikipedia is primarily about having information on line on this site, not about telling you that a hardcopy book is available in the Lithuanian National Library, which you could probably have worked out anyway. We have very few links of this sort to American libraries, which are more relevant to most of our users. We also have rules and policies about how and where information is presented, just as your National Libraries do. If you want to edit here, you need to respect those. Wikipedia is not generally a place for telling people where to find copies of a book, although it is about naming books that are used as references.Johnbod 14:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Johnbod raises an important point: why do you need to link to this source? If I made a similar link to a US library -- my hometown central public library, the Library of Congress or an institution somewhere in between -- at most the only thing this link would supply is the ISBN number of the book. If that is important, we should just add that number to the article & forget about the external link. Now, if it the case that the link leads to an image or article about the subject at the Library ... you need to explictly tell us that is the case. -- llywrch 18:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
You like references to online items that are made available by the libraries, but you don't appreciate references to the bibliographic record? Is this what you mean? Fleurstigter 14:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your question. How is a ISBN, a Library of Congress, or British Library number not the same as "the bibliographic record"? -- llywrch 18:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
it's what I mean, and I suspect Llywrch too. I am in favour of links to Illuminated manuscripts and (very) rare printed books featured, as opposed to just catalogued, online, where they are in articles written in WP style, and where are no better sources around. Often they are the only images available, and the ones on the site are too low resolution to be useful for Commons, in my view. It's an unfortunate by-product of Fleur's spamming that many such links that have been around for two years have now been removed after the site was blacklisted, so there are currently fewer links to the site than when she started. But later printed books do not need a reference to the site: WP is not a compendium of library catalogues.

Johnbod 14:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Johnbod, just as a remark, I have been working from the the contributions-list from Fleurstigter and the two IP-addresses that were adding ('spamming') the links to pages; there have not been that many links to the European Library as yet (the site is relatively new). I have only removed the links from pages where these accounts added links (which is generally the strategy I use when a domain gets spammed, only for bad links I work from the linksearch-page). I must confess that it may have been that links that were there before one of these accounts added another one has also been removed, but I do not recall removing links from other pages.
As a general note, I do not have a big problem with librarians pulling a very rare book out of their collection, and improving a wikipedia article with the information they pull out of that book. If that book is the only copy available online I would not have a big problem with a link to that book (though it is not a must, and of course it should be a reference with focus on the book, not on the link). When more (or many) libraries have the book available (even if there is only one library that has the book available online), I would advise to use an ISBN, a plain description of the book (even without a link), or a general link to a independent linkfarm. Hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra T C 16:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
There were a number of East European manuscripts added in mid-2005 by User:CristianChirita who just cut and pasted the info from the Treasures section of the EL site. I think all these links were removed after the recent black-listing. See Codex Vyssegradensis for an example - link removed by ST47. I don't approve of those articles either, not least because I have ended cleaning up several of them, like that one (compare the original version). But if they are there the the link to the image should be too (I have restored this one, but I can't remember the others). Maybe there aren't all that many. He removed (march 3) a number of other links too, but mostly not from articles on specific books. I'm all for more articles on important manuscripts, but they should be in WP style, not just cut & paste, and if possible with an image. Johnbod 17:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, another high-throughput editor, but I found the mentioned set of link-removals. I had a quick look, though did not look into all the link removals (I will look later this evening). The link removal you mentioned above was actually the removal of a reference. That removal was reverted, and indeed, it was there a proper reference, the text linked to does state the same as what is mentioned in the wikipedia document (though the wording of the reference could be better).
From the contributions of ST47, the first page I clicked (Orhan Pamuk removal diff) contained a link to the homepage of the European Library, which indeed does not comply with the guidelines on external links. The second (on Latvia, removal diff) removed three links, one is to a general searchpage, one to a document on an artist from Latvia (the country being the subject of the page, not the artist), and the third a link to the address of the latvian library on the site of the European Library. None of these three links are directly linked to the subject of the page, or violate other parts of WP:EL. I do concur with the removal here, these links really don't expand or improve the page. I will look through the rest of the diffs later.
With me the following question starts to come up. There have been (or are) several links to the European Library on pages, which did not link directly to the document where one can find the information, but which link to searchpages or collection pages where one has to search on the page for more information. Does the site of the European Library not allow to directly link to the appropriate documents? If that is the case, then there are certainly better sites to link to. Hope to hear more. --Dirk Beetstra T C 18:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes there often will be better sites, as I have said above or somewhere, certainly for the big Western European libraries. But for the East European ones the EL site Treasures section is still a good reference for important MS not covered elsewhere. I have spent a little time rooting around the EL site without finding much else of WP interest, except links to the British Library, BnF Paris, Royal Dutch sites etc, which are well known & best linked to directly. Each library adds its own bits, so apart from the Treasures section there seems little consistency so far. Early days perhaps. I don't argue with the removal of links to search pages etc. Johnbod 18:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have checked the other removals, and in most cases the links are only sideways linked to the site, or again, general or search pages. I also checked the 13 occurances of *.theeuropeanlibrary.org in mainspace at this moment. A couple of them are references (Alonzo de Santa Cruz, , Codex Vyssegradensis, İbrahim Hakkı Erzurumi) telling the information that is stated in the sentence (though in these cases I had to flip back and forth to see which item I needed, as I stated above, the description could be better, etc.). The others are all external links. On the pages European Library, German National Library (an internal link to European Library would suffice) and library (linkfarm) . On Biblia Pauperum, Velislai biblia picta, Oktoikh, Rosarium philosophorum, and Penny Dreadful the links are mainly to the item under discussion or an item similar or closely related to the item under discussion (for some I have to see the link first to understand it is indeed appropriate). Not all really very informative, and still, but that is a technical shortcoming of the site, there are more items on one page, and one does not get a link directly to only the required information, which is a bit confusing (certainly when the information is not directly linked to the subject one is browsing from).
I hope indeed that this is a problem of 'early days' (as with browser compatibility, which is being worked on), and that things will improve. --Dirk Beetstra T C 21:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


REFERENCES TO SUBJECT

Thanks for sharing your views.

The European Library can directly link / refer to the subject of the page. Soon you can also find direct referrals to specific treasures (making it no longer necessary to scroll down).

What do other editors think?

Have a nice day, Fleurstigter 11:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

>>> Another thing...

Say an editor refers to a rare book that has not been digitised. Is it not great that one link tells you whether or not you can find a copy / original in your country?! Why build in a hurdle, and only mention the ISBN? Why not guide those with a specific interest in the specific title to the place where they can find it (and examine it without costs)? In the same way - isn't great that a researcher from the US can find out where a particular European treasure is stored...so... this person knows where to go if he/she wants to take a look at it.

On the 'about us' page of The European Library, it is explained that "A national library is the library specifically established by a country to store its information database. National libraries usually host the legal deposit and the bibliographic control centre of a nation." Fleurstigter 08:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Because for most books, there are more places where it is stored, when you provide a linksearch via the ISBN, people have a choice, and not the editors bias. Moreover, if the book is available in 3 libraries over the world (of which one in the European library), the reader might want to find the closest copy, not only the one in the Romanian national library. If it is the only copy, the story changes, then a direct link is perfectly fine. By the way, why not link to the copy on the homepage of the library itself, i.s.o. using the 'hurdle' of the European Library? Hope this helps. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Dirk. The European Library combines the resources of the national libraries. As a result, it can tell you everything about the availability of a resource across Europe. It tells you if the resource is available at the library you selected, or another European library. Furthermore it also offers information via the 'all countries' option: (internet) locations where you can find out more about the item, for instance wikipedia! So a reference from The European Library is not a hurdle - on the contrary! To use your words: it gives people a choice :-)

To be clear - I like to refer to unique European resources, not "regular" titles (stuff you can't find just anywhere) Fleurstigter 09:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] High Schools

(Moved from the talk page ) --83.253.36.136 22:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have seen, quite often' a statement that High Schools are intrinsically notable. Can someone tell me if this is in fact stated in WP:POLICY, and if so, where?--Anthony.bradbury 22:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

  1. This talk page is for discussion about the Village Pump. You want the project page itself.
  2. Didn't you already ask this once before?
Short answer: There is no such statement either in favour or against this position. The stated position of the community is that it is sick and tired of the schools debate already. Chris cheese whine 22:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, I did ask the question before, but the discussion got archived and I lost it. My bad. And for the record., I am not trying to re-open a debate, and am personally sick and tired of being told in AfD, when I oppose a clearly non-notable school article, that High schools are intrinsically notable - which is the point of my question. If I am on the wrong page, I apologise. But thank you for your answer.--Anthony.bradbury 22:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't sweat it too much, we're all entitled to make mistakes. Part of the whole "human" thing. :-) Chris cheese whine 01:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Only thing to do is for us reasonable people (smile) who think some are and some aren't to keep arguing, and ignore the all schools and ignore the no schools-- the randomness of particular AfD decisions is a little disturbing, though. DGG

I am very comfortable with "some are and some are not". I just want to be able to decide in AfD without some twerp telling me that my edit is pointless because notability is WP:POLICY.--Anthony.bradbury 01:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy Deletions Problem

When an article is speedy deleted, people who have the article on their watch list have no way of knowing. The article simply stops showing up, and the watcher may forget about it. We must have a mechanism to inform watchers that a watched article has been deleted. Also, some deleting admins. will delink links to the deleted article. This, however, seems to be destruction of evidence. Although certainly not the sole criterion, the number of links to an article could be one indicator of its notability, for example for a restoration debate. --Nélson Ricardo 01:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Check your watchlist, there is a edit this list link, that shows all pages on a watchlist including the deleted page. as for removing red links, the article was deleted for a reason, and thus should not be recreated removing red links also deters recreation. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 01:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
No, we are not going to force users to click deeper just to keep track of their watched articles. Your arguments for delinking are specious and disingenuous. --Nélson Ricardo 02:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
You miss the point. Speedy deletion is for articles with no redeeming value (see WP:CSD). Things that get speedied do so for a reason (namely that they shouldn't be on Wikipedia in the first place). They stay on your watchlist, however, so you can see when they've been recreated (and may need deleting again). Sorry, I've just noticed that you're trolling the Pump because your pet article got deleted. Get over it. Chris cheese whine 10:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Dude, I do not appreciate your accusation that I am a troll. I have a valid grievance. Your flippant remark just pisses me off even more. Are people just trying to annoy me intentionally? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nricardo (talk • contribs) 10:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC).
Also, you miss the point. Speedy delete is to be used judiciously in the most blatant circumstances. The article in question was not a valid candidate for speedy, but somebody got a bit overzealous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nricardo (talk • contribs) 11:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC).
This is a bug at MediaZilla: #881 and related bug #778 requesting that image uploads register on the watchlist. It would be nice to have. I think that, however, unless a user who is not a developer develops the code, it will not be implemented very soon. Fact is, the developers have the critical bugs and roadmap issues to deal with. That said, I wish all log events for a specific page registered on the watchlist. I also wish I could help with the development, but with my poor programming skills, that is unlikely. --Iamunknown 02:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It appears that Chris is correct. This entire thing seems to be about ADERANT, an article about a company that has been created and maintained almost entirely by the user who started this discussion. It also appears that this user has made it a habit to engage in personal attacks against other users who disagree with his opinion, calling people "bitches" and such. In fact, he has a recent final warning from an admin for this behavior on his talk page. It is my opinion that since no valid policy discussion is even taking place, this discussion should be disregarded. SpadePrince Talk Contributions 14:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Notwithstanding possible bad behavior, I think there is a valid point that speedy deletes do not register on a watch list, and this is a shortcoming of the wiki software. A possible workaround would be for admins to always apply a tag or make some other edit to an article with an edit summary first, even if deleting it immediately thereafter. This way it will show up in the editors' watchlists with an explanation. It will also make sure the speedy deletion is marked in the edit history if the article is restored. Although this adds an extra step, it could save extra work in the long run. Dhaluza 16:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-commercial bias?

One thing I have noticed is that some passionate WP editors seem to have an anti-commercial bias. I think this stems from an over-reaction to the need to remove commercial spam content from articles and links. Some editors take this to an extreme and try to stamp out any trace of commercial activity or interest anywhere on WP, even where it doesn't exist. Since in the English speaking world capitalism is the dominant form of commerce, and most economic activity is conducted for-profit, disfavoring anything commercial would create a systemic bias. Two recent bad examples I have run across were the speedy tag slapped on Camp Alvernia claiming blatant advertising, despite the fact that it is a historical landmark operated by monks in a not-for-profit organization. The other is the (ham fisted) removal of a citation[1] in List of notable glider pilots to a bio by the Academy of Achievement, claiming that links to this site are spam, again even though this is a not-for-profit organization, and the bio was actually a very good secondary source. We need more citations on WP, not less! Has anyone else noticed this Anti-commercial bias too? Dhaluza 01:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. My recent experience with improper deletion of ADERANT has left a bad taste in my mouth. --Nélson Ricardo 02:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I think much of the problem arises from editors simply describing the company and listing its products/services without any indication of notability. A quick read through ADERANT leads me to think it was fairly prodded. Most of the company's history is about its being the orphan of serial divestitures; other than that, it's chief claim to notability seems to be "Despite the short life of the present company, it has existed for over 25 years in previous incarnations." The article itself is well-documented, but what is missing are any clues as to why it's noteworthy or whether there are even any laurels for its products. I don't think it needs to be deleted, but this weakness does need to be fixed (and promptly). Askari Mark (Talk) 04:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe you're exactly correct. We've certainly got articles on plenty of corporations and companies, but we also get in a veritable flood of attempted advertising. (And yes, when you see "We are the leading providers of..." in a new article, it's an ad.) Some people then do start to see spamming where there's not any, but given the flood of real spam, a false positive is an easy mistake to make. The best solution to it is: write an encyclopedic article if you're going to write about something commercial. If the company's been criticized or been in some trouble, state that. Say why it's important, what they do, the history of the company, why they matter-stuff you'd expect to see in an encyclopedia, not what you'd expect to see on a product list. Guaranteed, you start up an encyclopedic, balanced article in a neutral tone, and indicate why the company is notable, no one will even consider deleting it. Start something that looks like an ad or puff piece, and it'll be flagged before you can blink. Oh, and we get plenty of spam for nonprofits, it's not limited in any way to for-profit companies. Nonprofits can (and do) advertise, and sometimes, they take a shot at doing it here, just like others do. But in the end, I don't think it's a "bias", per se. If one site we can use as a reference has a ton of ads, and another of equal reliability and quality has few or none, we should pick the one with very few. If a paywall source's information can be gotten from a free source instead, we should prefer the free one, all other things equal. If a commercial site offers nothing over and above noncommercial references, we shouldn't have a link to it in an article. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest that the false positives are more damaging than the flood of advertising, because it discourages editors from writing, which hurts the project more than nonsense that readers can simply ignore. I'm not suggesting that we allow advertising--I remove it myself, and will prod vanity articles, etc. But we need a much more careful and measured approach. I think we have too many zealous deltionists prodding anything they don't like. The whole project would be better served if they stopped trying to expand the envelope on the limits of deletionism, and instead focused on improving questionable articles, reserving deletion for the really obvious cases. The ADERANT example given above is an excellent example of trying to push the limits of notability. The company itself has an obviously non-trivial economic impact, which IMHO suggests inherent notability. The article just needs more independent sourcing to meet the notability guideline, but standing ceremony is not productive, and deletion is a rather extreme remedy in cases like this. Dhaluza 11:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Last time I checked, NPOV does not require that if we have an article on one company we must have an article on all its competitors. Chris cheese whine 12:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
No, it simply requires that we have balanced coverage of a topic (WP:UNDUE). So if a significant commercial market segment has only two dominant competitors, and we have a detailed article on one, and no article on the other, this is not balanced. Dhaluza 16:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for helping to scale back vandalism.

I have a suggestion that I HOPE could be considered as one of the ways to scale back vandalism on Wikipedia. A lot of the vandalism I see on Wikipedia I think are by people who just happrn to see an article and they perhaps just see the "edit" link, so they click it and type something simple which comes to mind and hit save. My suggestion is this: Wikipedia (I think I had read somewhere) is supposed to be open and allow anonymous submissions as well. However, I think one of the ways to curb vandalism but allow through real legit. (albeit) anonymous entries would be this.

If you're an anonymous user, (meaning you don't subscribe for a free ID) you'd still be able to submit entries for Wikipedia articles. However, the part that cuts down on vandalism would be--- that you must get TWO people (with real IDs) to nominate your anonymous submission for inclusion into the real live article. I was toying around in my head if the two nominations should be made by admins, or just anyone with a real ID but I figure that should be up for discussion too and their may not be enough admins to overlook all entries... (Although then again there would have to be enough admins to revert that same number of vandalism instances so this argument might be moot.) If the person is a vandal there's less of a chance they will get the two required nominations to make the vandalism part of the live article. But people who are anonymous and submiting real credible stuff will likely get their two nominations by someone. Does anyone think the idea could be workable? Again by becoming a legit user they can bypass the whole credibility check of their entry. Sure Sockpuppets may be an issue but they can be handled as they are now. CaribDigita 01:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Progress is being made on implementing 'Stable versions' of articles (a contractor has been hired – can't find another link at the moment), and there is a feature in the software to patrol edits (which I think will be tied into the stable versions), although it is not enabled here. mattbr 09:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It's on the mw:MediaWiki roadmap as well. mattbr 09:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I spend time each day on edit patrol and sometimes I'll have to revert the same article three times in as many minutes, I never give it that third edit, I just report it, but my point is that the vandals are using bots as well, or at least it seems like it. Sue Rangell[citation needed] 00:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The one good thing I noticed that will hit back at the Vandalism-bots is I noticed now Wikipedia has one of those images-- with the made up text in the image... The one where you have to re-type what the image reads? Well now you have to do that with your submission as an annon. Try loging out and trying to submit something sometime. You'll see what I mean.  :-) CaribDigita 02:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) You mean a captcha? I've seen people mention this before: the capcha only appears if a non-established user (new account, anonymous IP) tries to add an external link. Any other edits, I am told, do not trigger this. -- llywrch 18:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Spot on... That's what I guess it is called. Those things from what I'm told keep automated processes or bot type things from changing things. But I propose as a way to scale back vandals is have a 2 vote nomination process to add annonymous content to articles. Anon. edits which are credible will likely get the two votes. However aditions like "Hi George,sally says hi" or nonsense like that likely wont. CaribDigita 01:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia's policy on articles about words

Wikipedia has no policy on articles about words. I wanted to propose that we actually create such a policy, but I believe the chance of it happening is approximately zero at this point. In the meantime, I've written an essay about this, Wikipedia:Articles about words, which attempts to explain what our general practice is on word articles. Please come read this essay and then use the talk page to tell me how much the essay horribly sucks. --Xyzzyplugh 20:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

We do have a policy on articles about words: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --Carnildo 02:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Though, if you read the essay, it acknowledges this policy, points out some inconsistency in its application, and addresses exceptions that are generally permitted.zadignose 04:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Performance of Microsoft FAT 32

A comparison of Microsoft FAT32 and other filesystems can be found at:

http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/resources/fs-benchmarks.htm

The first column names the filesystem tested. The second column records the total time (in seconds) it took to run the filesystem benchmarking software bonnie++ (Version 1.93c). The third column records the total number of megabytes needed to store 655 megabytes of raw data.

SMALLER is better.


FILESYSTEM TIME DISK USAGE
REISER4 (lzo) 1,938 278
REISER4 (gzip) 2,295 213
REISER4 3,462 692
EXT2 4,092 816
JFS 4,225 806
EXT4 4,408 816
EXT3 4,421 816
XFS 4,625 799
REISER3 6,178 793
FAT32 12,342 988
NTFS-3g >10,414 772


Each test was preformed 5 times and the average value recorded. SMALLER is better.

The Reiser4 filesystem clearly had the best test results.

The FAT32 filesystem had the worst test results.

The bonnie++ tests were preformed, with the following parameters:

bonnie++ -n128:128k:0

More detail on the tests can be found here: http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/resources/fs-benchmarks.htm

The above site provides a script, so that you can check these results for yourself.

Where do I officially COMPLAIN?

I have the knowledge to help out, but of course, I won't help an organization that allows jerks like Strangnet AlistairMcMillan Nick Ryulong Chacor Golbez & RJASE1 to totally abuse the system.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.88.90.59 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity: How is this related to Wikipedia? Do you wish to put this somewhere? x42bn6 Talk 17:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, the text you removed after asking the above actually somewhat "explained" that. --83.253.36.136 18:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Ooh, now I get it. I just thought the multiple headings were some messed-up heading editing. x42bn6 Talk 18:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
And why is there a mediation template on the top of this page regarding this? x42bn6 Talk 18:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

For more information on this, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive217#Bizarre_vandal_on_Hans_Reiser, and for a reply to the material, see User talk:219.88.77.237, and Talk:Reiser4#This_section_was_removed._WHY.3F.-gadfium 21:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

  • How on earth does any file system use 900+ megabytes to store 650 megs of data? >Radiant< 15:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
    • You use a rigged test. Namely, you store lots of small files on a large file system, which isn't a situation that FAT32 handles well. Note also that the site referenced claims that Hans Reiser's incarceration is the result of his file system's performance... Zetawoof(ζ) 04:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair-use images in portal revival

I'm attempting to reopen the discussion orignally begun here. This is a proposed amendment to WP:FUC#9 and the proposal is located at Wikipedia:Fair use/Amendment/Fair use images in portals2. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spiffy new way of choosing the TFA

I have designed a new policy for choosing the TFA in a way that will make everyone happy and solve a lot of problems. Please add to the debate at Wikipedia:SweeTFA proposition!   David Spart (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) 22:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution:Licensing policy

I want to make everyone aware of the resolution taken by Meta at Resolution:Licensing policy. I think the fair use policy should be redefined acording to it Perón 14:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, that page isn't at, meta, it's at the wikimedia foundation page. These are different sites. Anyway, it looks like that the resolution says that all existing fair use images must be examined to see if they really are fair use. mrholybrain's talk 16:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors)

Why should we have special guidelines to lower the bar for porn actors etc.? Is disrobing and copulating really a valid rationale for easier inclusion at Wikipedia? Please evaluate these standards: Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors), and join the discussion. --Kevin Murray 18:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually I believe those special guidelines are there to raise the bar for pornographic actors, not lower it. Given that the notability guidelines in Wikipedia:Notability (people) for general entertainers include "Have appeared in well-known films, stage plays, television, and other productions." Mere appearance in a pornographic film (even a "well-known" one) would be appear to be insufficient under the Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors) guidelines. --Stormie 04:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

If anything, the bar should be raised. These people have careers that are at best ephemeral -- and there are a lot of them. Maybe the most major of performers are notable, but not the typical ones. Notability implies interest to people besides genre devotees. Yakuman (数え役満) 10:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

(to be a devil's advocate) For the very reasons Yakuman raised, I believe that indicates notability per WP:PAPER. As long as someone cares about it and there is a claim to fame of even a small degree, then it'd be tough to argue. Take a look at a Wikiproject and browse it's low-importance articles: you'll see plenty of items that few will care for. ...I'm sure the Physics and Chemistry Wikiprojects are rife with them. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 11:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of archival tags on Images and media for deletion debates and proposed image prod process

Unlike other deletion debates, such as WP:AFD, IFDs are not currently utilizing archival tags when closing a debate. I think the use of archival tags should implemented here on IFD. I have created a tag that could be used: Template:Ifd top would be used at the top of a debate and Template:Afd bottom would be placed at the bottom. I am looking for a few opinions about adding this to the closing instructions. --24fan24 (talk) 20:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it would be that useful. AFD is run as "I think this should be deleted. Does anyone agree?" IFD, on the other hand, is "I think this should be deleted. Does anyone object?" Since the vast majority of IFDs have no discussion other than the original nomination, archive tags would just be pointless paperwork. --Carnildo 20:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
That's a good point. This got me thinking though, perhaps we should develop a prod process for uncontroversial deletes and keep the ifds for more controversial deletions? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24fan24 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
A prod process would also be easier for the nominating users. A prod tag is far simpler than adding a tag and going to another page to list a reason. --24fan24 (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll coin the phrase: "iprod". I think this is a great idea. Then the archiving of IFDs that actually have discussion should occur with the templates listed above. --MECU≈talk 23:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You raise interesting points, but I don't think that either archival or proposed deletion would be useful. I get the indication that fewer people include images they have uploaded or otherwise have interest in their watchlists, so they might not see when an image has been prodded. If you find the ifd process laborious, then install User:Howcheng/quickimgdelete.js to your monobook. Administrators will have to go through every single image anyways, so I argue that it would be better to include the arguments for and against deletion on a single page. I don't think that ifd is broken, so I don't think it needs to be fixed. --Iamunknown 23:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Just my two cents: if users aren't watching an image they won't notice an ifd any more than they would a prod. I agree that ifd is not broken but that doesn't mean it cannot be improved. --24fan24 (talk) 02:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Today's Featured Article proposal

It has been proposed below that Today's featured article procedures be amended. The original proposal was rejected at as per discussion at the archive.
Discussion is now open on the amended proposal 2 below. Support or oppose the amendment should be on the proposal page, under the heading "Survey". If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the amendment is reached, please notify the administrators noticeboard for further assistance.


TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 21:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting talk page vandalism

I reverted some vandalism on an article and left {{test1}} on the perp's page. He then left a nasty message on my talk page. Finally, a well-meaning editor reverted that last edit.

IMHO, destructive vandalism of user talk pages (e.g., deletion or massive addition) should be reverted by whoever finds it first, but that merely incivil comments should be left for the user/owner to deal with.

Is there a policy or guideline about this? Matchups 01:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Not really, but you may want to point them to WP:RPA which is definitely not a policy or guideline. >Radiant< 11:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infoboxes and navigational templates

I was wondering whether anyone else thinks that whilst the quality of infoboxes is generally very good, vertical-style navigational templates are generally low quality, irritating and often POV? They appear at the top of many articles yet are only rarely well thought through. For example:

Some navigational templates work well because they allow the user to navigate to other articles of the same type. For example, Human rights uses the Template:Africa_topic. But others (e.g. those listed above) presume the reader is looking at an article with a particular angle and this can be POV. In my experience editing templates is difficult because:

  1. Some editors don't get involved because of the technical challenges
  2. People protect templates and assume there is consensus even when there is not

Does anyone else have thoughts on this - can anything be done? Andeggs 09:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with that, but not that infoboxes are generally very good quality - they vary hugely, and some definitely detract from the articles in my view - too big, too little useful information, inaccurate or over-simplified information, just repeating the first lines of the article. As you say, both are hard to control. The biography infobox is a particular menace in Visuals arts articles, where it is creeping in, pushing out paintings by the artist in favour of a whiskery Victorian photo or dubious engraved portrait. Johnbod 13:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] link to private company offering services at bottom of article dd form 214

I have a company that obtains military records. The article dd form 214 in wikipedia describes this important document. At the end of the article a competitor keeps adding a link to his site which is allegedly a consumer advocacy site, in reallity it is just a site to refer business to another company he owns.

Is this allowed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steveljones (talk • contribs) 14:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dispute over OR - comments sought

The blogger 'Zombie' of the blog Zombietime took photos of an antisemetic sign at a San Francisco antiwar rally on Feb 16 2003. At any given large antiwar rally, dozens of people take photos, and many such photos would no longer be on the www 4 years later. Zombie's photo gained prominence on right wing blogs. An article in the Santa Cruz Sentinal states : "In addition to the Elders of Zion protocol published in New Jersey, war protesters at a recent San Francisco peace rally were photographed displaying pictures of the devil with a dollar sign over his head standing over a globe, surrounded by the words "Zionist Pigs" and "Stop the War Pigs." and provides a link to the site of the conference. Neither the article nor the conference credit or even mention Zombietime. The conference uses a pic, that under close examination might be Zombie's or might not be. The contents of the site are copyrighted however, with no credit given to Zombie. Several editors, including Admin Slim Virgin are claiming that since Zombie's picture was prominently discussed on right wing blogs, and because they think the photo used on the conference site is zombie's that this makes it OK to use the Santa Cruz Sentinel article (which never mentions Zombietime) as a supporting ref for the article as second instance of evidence that zombie's photos have been used in the mainstream media. I say that this is speculative unsupported OR. The photo on the conference site might actually be zombies, and it might not be, but unless it credits Zombie, it's still OR to claim that it is. Admin Slim Virgin suggested that someone contact the conference to ask them if they used Zombie's pic. Wouldn't this be more OR ? Opinions sought. Thanks Link Thanks - FaAfA Aloha 21:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Zombie certainly claims to have taken the photo. The question is whether Zombietime is a reliable source.--Runcorn 21:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Zombie may have taken the pic (although it's odd that the UC wouldn't credit him on a copyrighted site) but for the article to claim that this passage "war protesters at a recent San Francisco peace rally were photographed displaying pictures of the devil with a dollar" was referring to Zombie and only Zombie is OR. - FaAfA Aloha 22:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Trivial observation - anti-zionism ≠ anti-semitism, (though there may be a strong association of the two views). (WW is neither, though he would support transfer of a significant portion of the land presently controlled by Israel to a Palestinian state with rather better governance than the present entity. Or banging everyone in the Middle Easts heads together. Whichever). Winstonwolfe 04:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cosmetic images (again)

Further to #Cosmetic images above, can someone clarify the policy? I've had a batch of these images kept at IfD because a bunch of users came in and voted "Keep WP:ILIKEIT", even though the images have no encyclopaedic value. So, apparently, I need to find chapter and verse which says that we should not use images composed entirely of text when the equivalent text will do just as well. Next, they'll be telling me we need to establish a consensus that grass is green (otherwise we'll have to tag that first paragraph as {{disputed}}). Chris cheese whine 02:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essay on ignoring users started

at Wikipedia:Ignore all users. Someone will have to take it further, as I don't have the time. —davidh.oz.au 11:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, wait, should I have put this in proposals? I checked Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Ignore all credentials, and it came here, so I assumed this was the right place. —davidh.oz.au 11:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe it sums up all existing proposals thus far. —davidh.oz.au 11:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's ignore this essay. >Radiant< 13:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we need WP:IAE or Wikipedia:Ignore all essays? JulesH 07:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jimbo Wales's requested poll nearly done - please see

Jimbo Wales requested a poll to gauge community thoughts on the Wikipedia:Attribution merger. A poll for this is being crafted, and is somewhat close to done. Concensus for the past 24 hours (with the occasional dissenting voice of course) that the thing is close to done. Only the main question is still heavily debated. A pre-poll straw poll is here:

Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll#Q1_Straw_poll_duration

To sort that out. Accepted group concensus seems to be to pre-poll to 4/1/07 22:00 and then launch a site-wide poll (again, as implied/requested by Jimbo) at 4/2/07 00:00. Please help hash out the wording for that last quesion. - Denny 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  • We have here 897 kilobytes worth of discussion in order to decide the wording of a poll to decide the wording of a poll that is to decide an issue we already wrote 2.6 megabyte worth of discussion on. For reference, this adds up to three times as much text as found in Homer's Iliad. Future literary historians will never be short of work. >Radiant< 13:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
    • "A million monkeys at a million typewriters could produce the works of Shakespeare in a million years." Now, thanks to the internet (and Wikipedia), we know this isn't true. --MECU≈talk 14:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I've heard that joke, before, MECU, but it's still funny. YechielMan 19:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of international wheelchair symbol

This topic has been discussed in a number of places, notably here, but I'd like to get broad community input on this issue.

The issue concerns the use of the International Symbol of Access (ISA) outside its article. The ISA may be freely used to illustrate handicapped accessibility. However, the symbol is copyrighted and so derivative works are not permitted.

Until recently, the ISA was used in places such as Template:Infobox Disney ride to illustrate handicapped accessibility. It has been replaced with a crudely drawn (but freely licensed) alternative,

So, here is the question: Should we permit use of the ISA to illustrate handicapped accessibility in articles and templates? Please continue the discussion in this section, and then indicate your position in the poll below. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused as to why it is in debate. Yes, it isn't a free image, but any concievable adaptation of the encyclopedia by any entity could use it the way we do, because it may be freely used to illustrate handicapped accessibility. Last I checked, it's pretty unambiguous that "This image may be freely used in situations X, Y, and Z" copyrights are allowed. -Amarkov moo! 05:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poll: Should we permit use of the ISA to illustrate handicapped accessibility in articles and templates?

[edit] Yes, permit use in articles and templates to illustrate handicapped accessibility

  1. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Badagnani. This is such a non-issue that it shouldn't even have to be up for discussion. Let's return to creating great content. Badagnani 05:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. [2] gives permission to use the symbol "to promote and publicize accessibility of places, programs and other activities for people with various disabilities" and encourages visitors "to place these symbols next to the relevant information in all publications and media". The fact that the image is copyrighted is irrelevant: there is no such thing in Europe as a copyright-free image, except for those on which copyright has expired. The license granted isn't entirely free, but it's about as close as you get. JulesH 07:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. Yes. Here we have a prime example of image-license wikilawyering being bad for the encyclopedia. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Of course yes. Ridiculous copyright hysteria run amok. Jenolen speak it! 08:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Yes. I have worked with people with disabilities in the past, and have found that badly thought-out or stereotyped signs, no matter how well intentioned, can often cause offence, and therefore the most prudent option is to stick to official symbols. – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. The symbol's copyright is only to protect improper usage. As long as it is being used to denote a handicapped accessible facility or service, we are using it within its guidelines and not violating its copyright. –Crashintome4196 17:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. I believe that it makes sense to slightly modify or clarify our fair use criteria to indicate that a limited number of "official symbols" like the International Symbol of Access are not replaceable and do not require specific rationales for each use. This appears to be in line with what Jimbo implied (see below). --NE2 19:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. It's the symbol for handicapped accessibility, and is freely usable within that context. (You can even profit from it. Look at those handicapped accessible restroom and parking signs companies sell.) The arguments against using it sound like the sort of thing I might say if I was trying to make a WP:POINT against overly strict interpretation of the image use criteria. If this requires a one sentence addition to the fair use policy saying that we can use universal standard symbols for their intended purpose without fear of repercussion, which should be obvious anyway, then so be it. --tjstrf talk 00:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. This is very much like Crown Copyright, which provides explicit permission provided the material is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading depiction. The ISA is universally recognised as the symbol for accessibility. Some random vector someone whipped up in Inkscape is not. This is very much a case where we need to interpret our rules in spirit, and not in letter. There is no violation of copyright law here, as any use to designate accessibility is not only fair, but expressly permitted. Chris cheese whine 00:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. It appears from the discussion below that this is a technical violation of Wikipedia policy. However, I believe that the policy is intended as a way to ensure that we don't run afoul of copyright law, not as an end in itself. Given our confidence that we are not in fact violating the copyright, and given that there is no reasonable alternative to use of this image, this is an ideal time to ignore skirt the policy and do the right thing. Matchups 01:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. Seems like this is a good time to make one of our rare exceptions to the fair-use policy. --Carnildo 07:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. An exception should be made in this case. We need to be as disability friendly as we possibly can. This is easily within our abilities to do, so we should do it. The reasons against seem to be that it's against the rules, nothing more. That means the rules are wrong or incomplete. Using a poor alternative is doing a poor job of being disability friendly. - Peregrine Fisher 05:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  14. Although voting is, of course, evil, I think it's important to point out that the Foundation resolution on the subject of nonfree content allows for exceptions "to include identifying protected works such as logos". This is a prime example of the sort of use which should be allowed. Even if the image is technically "unfree", the intent of the copyright holder is clear. If we need to add a sentence to WP:FU to cover this sort of thing, so be it.—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  15. See my comment below. Yes this image can be used, as long as it's usage is properly documented and discussed. We don't need to change WP:FU for just one exception, as long as the rationale of it's usage is properly noted, the image properly categorized, this discussion is referenced, and enough users sign off on it. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 18:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
    1. I would like to point out that the scope of the usage of the image should be clearly defined. We cannot use it everywhere, but to say we can't use it ANYWHERE is just stupid --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 09:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
  16. This discussion is fully involved at this point. There's clearly the ability to change policy when needed and rational, and people are arguing that we can't change it because... it's not been changed? get over yourselves. -- nae'blis 18:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  17. Yes. The image is free (as a speech) to use for the purpose we want to use it. It is forbidden to use for the other purposes for the damn good reason. It is morally wrong and probably illegal to use something else for the purpose we intend to use it. What elase can I say? Alex Bakharev 03:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No, display the symbol only to illustrate the symbol, do not use it to illustrate handicapped accessibility

  1. Since it appears we are not allowed to use other licences which allow free use of images but do not allow modification, at least on articles of living people (and I'm thinking of Template:NZCrownCopyright here), I can't see why we should use this. I don't agree with the policy, but we should enforce it equally.-gadfium 08:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No, do not have the poll

First, we do not vote over policy proposals. Second, this is an issue of copyright law, which is obviously not trumped by consensus. Third, we have rather stringent "fair use and free images" rules for reasons imposed by the board, which means we're not going to use a copyrighted image on templates. I suggest you ask Jimbo to make an exception but he likely won't. By the way there is too "something in Europe as a copyright-free image", for instance those in the public domain or those licensed under the GFDL or somesuch. >Radiant< 08:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree with Radiant here. Garion96 (talk) 08:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Fully agree with Radiant. —xyzzyn 09:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Small correction: GFDL content is copyrighted, GFDL is a license for distributing copyrighted information. --Kim Bruning 11:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not an issue of copyright law, it is an issue of Wikipedia policy. We may legally use the image to indicate handicapped-accessible railway stations, Disney rides, etc. The copyright holder explicitly allows the symbol to be used in this way. The question is do we want to do that.
This poll is to give us a general idea of what members of the community think. No, we don't vote on policy, but a vote can help us get a general idea of where the community stands. —Remember the dot (talk) 16:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not asking for free reign to use this as though it were licensed under a free as in freedom license — I am not asking for permission to use this on userboxes or in talk pages. I'm asking whether the community feels that limited use to illustrate handicapped accessibility is (or should be) acceptable. —Remember the dot (talk) 16:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo has been asked: User talk:Jimbo Wales#International Symbol of Access and licensing. His comments seem to imply that if our fair use policy is changed, we can use it under fair use; but right now, our fair use policy prevents us from using it because it's replaceable and needs a rationale for every use. --NE2 17:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This discussion may result in a slight change to the fair use policy, whether it be the letter of the policy or the interpretation. Again, I don't want us to go wild over the use of the wheelchair symbol, but limited use where appropriate would be nice. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
In the event of the "fair use" policy being changed, it would be good to see that change applied to similar cases - as Gadfium pointed out, Crown Copyright (UK, NZ and other Commonwealth nations), is an analagous situation of reproduction allowed with no modification , and 500 plus images are threatened by recent spate of deletions of crown copyrighted material by free use ideological purists.
The present Fair Use policy is based on US copyright law with some additional restrictions. Unfortunately this
1. tends to exclude images from other jurisdictions so increasing the present US content imbalance and
2. provides a false sense of security that users of Wikipedia images are not breaking copyright or other laws, (some of the crown copyright images have been allowed because they fit within "fair use", when their use could break other nations laws).
There appears to be no reason to consider US law superior to that of most other OECD nations, nor for a policy to be based on anyones law at all.
The reason/retrospective excuse for a policy based only upon US intellectual property law is that wikipedia servers are based in the US, and "fair use" provides protection for the Wikipedia Foudnation against breaches of other nations copyright laws. This reasoning has two flaws - firstly, it does not protect users, as against the foundation, secondly, it does not protect either against laws other than copyright (e.g. defamation).
Ultimately I think we need international lawyers involved in a rethink of the whole policy from the ground up. In the mean time, for the little it is worth, my opinion is a common sense solution might be a relaxation the ideological purity of complete "Free use" position. Reuse without modification is hardly the most onerous requirement, and simply tagging this on the image should warn users of the danger and protect Wikipedia from liability.
If policy in this area is changed a change I would like to see is the abandonment of the Orwellianly loaded terms "Fair Use" and "Free Use", - it appears to me that discussion of change has been chilled because the policy contains the warm and fuzzy but not particularly accurate words "Fair" and "Free". I suspect if a newbie had renamed these policies they would promptly have been deemed POV and reverted :-) Seriously, attempting to discuss the policies seems to provoke at least some readers into irrational knee jerk assumption any one questioning Fair and Free use must be against fairness and freedom. Winstonwolfe 03:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This poll is funny, and it won't change anything. We can't use the symbol, and people would rather argue to use it than make a better looking free version. Holy crap, people, it's not that freaking hard. I mean, just freaking look at it! We can't use the international one, it's painfully clear, deal with it. This isn't even close to being one of those grey areas we usually discuss here, not by a long shot. This is one of the most obvious situations of when to not use fair use that I've ever seen. -- Ned Scott 05:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The question is not "can we?" It's "should we?" We may legally use the image. This poll, so far, has shown great support in favor of using the image, no matter whether the policy currently allows this or not. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Any free alternative is inherently going to not be an internationally recognized symbol. Thus, any free replacement will be inferior to the International Symbol of Access. —Remember the dot (talk) 06:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Legal issues don't matter, our policy, our non optional policy, says no. Being "inferior" is an absurd thing to say. How is it inferior? It might not look as pretty, but that's not significant. It doesn't matter how many people disagree with the policy, it's our policy, and it's been set by the Wikimedia Foundation itself. It's out of your hands, and the poll completely lacks the authority to do anything about the matter. Sorry, but that's the way things are. -- Ned Scott 07:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
We're talking about adjusting our policy. Again, the only argument against is that our rules say so. If there's no other reasoning, we should change our rules. The poll will be a good thing to take to the foundation, if they're the ones who have to decide. Finally, the free image is inferior because it isn't a recognized symbol. - Peregrine Fisher 07:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I doubt anyone won't understand what the free image is implying, and because of that we don't need an internationally recognized symbol. We're not actually helping handicapped people by using this image, and we shouldn't be. Wikipedia is not a directory, or a guide for the handicapped. People don't need to use Wikipedia to see if handicapped parking is available at some train station. Even if they do use it, which we can't really stop people from doing, it's plain as day what the free image means. -- Ned Scott 07:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
But hey, whatever, if you guys want to give the Foundation your poll results, ok. But until they change our policy (which is not limited to just Wikipedia, but to all Wikimedia projects), we can't use the image. -- Ned Scott 07:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A passionate defense of nonsense, Ned; appropriate for April 1st... Side note: Is this not the classic case of WP:IAR? Aren't we supposed to use independent thought to judge and balance these issues? Shouldn't, in this one case, WP:IAR trump WP:FU? Jenolen speak it! 07:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No, IAR is not a loop hole that anyone can just use when they don't get what they want. Free content is the very reason Wikipedia (and it's predecessor, Nupedia) was started. Asking to be exempt for such minor situation in face of that is just absurd. Continue to discuss if you want, but those who violate our policies will be dealt with accordingly. -- Ned Scott 08:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Dealt with accordingly??? Accordingly to what? And by who? You? Oh, dear god, PLEASE sign me up for an accordingly dealing. (Does it involve Jimbo reading me the anti-creator screed from "Freedom Defined" over and over again until my ears bleed? (Its hysterical (in every sense) reference to "God-like creators" seems to indicate WP:NPOV is certainly not in effect there...)
I love that WP:IAR is a policy... which, apparently, is only a joke, and is NEVER supposed to be actually used. "Heh, heh, you don't really believe all that stuff about ignoring stupid rules to help make Wikipedia better, do ya?" Uh, yeah, I do. That's why WP:IAR is a policy -- and asking you to have an original thought about this matter has apparently scared you so much, you can only fall back on another policy, which you must believe is somehow "immune" from the reach of WP:IAR. I'm not talking about using WP:IAR to turn Wikipedia in to the world's number one fan site; I'm talking about a one-time use of a sensible "check" on the insane dedication to a contradictory and messy set of unencyclopedic fair use standards. A dedication which is, in this case, emperically HURTING Wikipedia, by making it non-standard, non-International, and disabled unfriendly. But how can you process any of that? I mean, you have a very simple "program" - "Copyright = bad. No use on Wikipedia." Which is fine, and all, but both common sense and the law would permit the ISA's use on Wikipedia. I urge you to stand with common sense and the law, and perhaps, just maybe, realize that the answers to all of life's problems can't be found in WP:FU. Jenolen speak it! 08:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It means you'll get banned for breaking the policy. If you use the copyrighted image, get reverted, and keep trying to use it, you will be blocked. You obviously don't understand a fundamental point here on Wikipedia, that our fair use restrictions are actually more restrictive than the law requires, not because of legal issues, but because our goal is to have all of our content under the GFDL. There's no major benefit to using the copyrighted image. Now you're resorting to inappropriate personal attacks on me because I'm simply telling you the facts of the situation. It's laughable to think that we would bend our fair use policy over something so trivial. You've completely missed the point. You're all hung up on something that isn't even an issue. No significant improvement will come from using the "official image" at all. Your argument is weak and lacks logic. Wikipedia will not be better for using another fair use image, it will be worse for using another fair use image. We are about promoting free content and using free content whenever possible, and only using copyrighted content when we have no other options. You are disagreeing with a fundamental value of Wikipedia. -- Ned Scott 08:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
And really, who cares if it's blue or not, or exactly the same image. It doesn't matter, EVERYONE will know exactly what it means. Are you really going to fight this tooth and nail, over something so absurdly unimportant and insignificant? You want us to bend the rules for this?? Are you batshit insane? -- Ned Scott 09:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Ned, it's not batshit insane to say that it's appropriate to use a nonfree image that has been released by the copyright holder for exactly this sort of use — especially in light of the Foundation resolution on unfree content, which allows exceptions "to include identifying protected works such as logos". It is reasonable to say that a crudely drawn substitute is not an acceptable alternative, because the ISA is internationally recognized, and the crudely drawn susbtitute is not. The Foundation's resolution says that nonfree content "must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose." A reasonable argument can be made that the crude substitute does not serve the same educational purpose as the ISA. So please, refrain from calling people making reasonable arguments "batshit insane". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
But this is specifically about incidental use of the symbol without any educational purpose. The issue is not to remove the symbol from International Symbol of Access, but not to use it in an infobox of e. g. metro stations. There, the non-free symbol serves no educational purpose, which can be done just as well by a free symbol; therefore, it must be replaced. The symbol is also not an ‘identifying protected work’ in that context. —xyzzyn 10:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Josiah, they're talking about using the image in templates and stuff, like for train stations. I have no problem with using the image in articles that discuss the image. -- Ned Scott 10:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I understand that. I maintain that the use of the ISA in templates to identify handicap-accessible locations and facilities is an educational use, because it establishes in a clear, unambiguous, internationally recognized manner that the facility in question is handicap-accessible. The substitute image does not perform that function; nor would a text message, which would not be accessible to non-English speakers. Yes, we are the English Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean that we should refuse to use internationally recognized symbols which we're legally entitled to use. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A text message in English would perform this function perfectly, since we are the English Wikipedia. That there are other means to express the same thing shouldn’t bother us especially if those means are in contempt of very basic policy. —xyzzyn 19:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm dumbfounded at your response, Josiah. Our content is supposed to be free of copyright red tape, so that you can use it for anything, educational, commercial, whatever. We don't allow educational-use only images (unless under WP:FU) or even images that people specifically for Wikipedia-only use (such images can even be speedy deleted). Wikipedia is specifically stricter than the law requires, because we're about free content. WP:FU isn't how it is because of the law, it's that way to prevent needless copyrighted images in a free-use project. This is so fundamental that it hurts my head. -- Ned Scott 20:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
My point is that this is not needless — it is offensive to substitute something that looks a bit like an internationally recognized symbol but isn't it, when there is no good reason not to use the internationally recognized symbol. It's like representing a country with an image that looks a bit like its flag, but isn't. If Image:Flag of the United Nations.svg were copyrighted and Image:United Federation of Planets flag.png were free, would it be acceptable to use the latter in UN-related articles? After all, it looks a bit like the UN flag. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure I've covered this already, but unless you know something I don't, using an alternative image in place of the ISA will not be offensive (why the hell would you think it would be?) to people who are disabled. Disabled people don't have an attachment to that image, it's just an informational icon. It's not a flag, it's not a symbol of hope, it's just a damn icon to tell you if there's a ramp somewhere or if there's closer parking spaces. Other people and places commonly use alternative symbols to note disabled access all the time, and do so without incident. -- Ned Scott 00:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
It's clear that it's legal to use the ISA. It is not clear to me that it is legal to use a similar "free" image, as that might be considered a derivative work which is not allowed by the copyright holder's release. Matchups 15:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A derivative work is just that. A work which is similar to another work but was created independently isn’t derivative. —xyzzyn 19:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like this is a gray area where it's hard to tell if we have a derivative work or not. - Peregrine Fisher 19:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a legal expert, but the concept of a stick figure in a wheel chair is one of those things.. OfficeMax used to have a mascot that was a little stick figure, noted by a unique marking on his head. Other stick figures are very similar, but obviously OfficeMax can't make the claim that those stick figures infringe on their copyright. I'd think that same logic would apply here. -- Ned Scott 20:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Does fair use even apply? If the image isn't used on a page that discusses the image, then it seems like it doesn't. We wouldn't be using the image under fair use, we'd be using it accordin to what its copyright grants. It isn't going to be released since it's copyright allows anyone to use it, as long as they're designating something that's handicapped accesible. If it were made free, it could be misused to lable something that isn't handicapped accessible, so it isn't going to be released. I wouldn't even want it released. The only change would be that people could misuse it. We should just explain its status on the image page, and then use it for anything that is handicapped accessible. There doesn't seem to be a tag for this sort of thing, so not sure what to do there. - Peregrine Fisher 17:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Content on Wikipedia is supposed to be used for anything, educational or commercial. This is why we can't use images that allow for education use only without a fair use rational. Fair use is the only way we could use this image. -- Ned Scott 20:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Ned, we're suggesting that this image might be in a third category: unfree, but not fair use. The Foundation's resolution allows us to create an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) for unfree content. These exemptions must be limited according to item #3 of the resolution:

3. Such EDPs must be minimal. Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works. An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose, such as is the case for almost all portraits of living notable individuals. Any content used under an EDP must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose.

The ISA is clearly an example of "identifying protected works such as logos", and we would be within our Foundation-delimited rights to include it in our EDP. At the moment, en.wikipedia's EDP is WP:FU, and obviously the vast majority of nonfree content on Wikipedia would be determined by our "fair use" policy — but "fair use" is immaterial to the use of this image, whose copyright explicitly allows the uses for which we, and downstream users, would use it. I, and others, are proposing that en.wikipedia's EDP explicitly allow the use of the ISA and other copyrighted international symbols whose use is uncontroversial in any other context.
Ned, you say that you're flabbergasted by my response. I'm somewhat puzzled that you apparently don't see how using a different image in place of the ISA is problematic. If it's sufficiently unlike the ISA not to be a copyright violation, it's potentially confusing and/or offensive to disabled people, who know, use and rely on the ISA. If it's close enough not to be confusing and/or offensive, it's a derivative image. Either way, we're better off using the image itself, and adjusting our EDP accordingly. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I've explained in private to Josiah just how close I do know about disabled people. There's no risk of confusion, and the offensive concern is not an issue. I'm really not sure why one would come to the conclusion that using a different image would be offensive. I've even seen different images be used to indicate disabled parking, ramps, etc, and they're purely informational, nothing emotional or significant about them. These are not flags, and disabled people do not have an attachment to the ISA image. I don't know why anyone would come to such a conclusion, and I know you don't mean anything bad by that, but if I were disabled I'd be a little offended at your view. Why would you think that this image would be.. "holy" (or whatever) simply because it's used on maps and parking spaces? You've got it all wrong, offensiveness isn't a factor in this at all. No one's feelings will be hurt, no one will be offended. -- Ned Scott 04:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Q & A

Is this image 'free' (in the libre sense)? Nope. There are restrictions on its use.

Is this a bad thing, or a reason not to use it on Wikipedia? Nope. In fact, it's what makes it worthwhile as a symbol—its meaning is clear because of its licensing terms.

Is there any reason why we would want or need to use the symbol in a way that is prohibited by its license? Nope.

Is this a 'fair use' issue? Nope. We would only be using the image in a way explicitly permitted by its license. 'Fair use' is a defence to a charge of copyright infringement; it would only be an issue if we were violating the license terms.

Wait—it's selfish to only think about our own use. What about people who redistribute Wikipedia materials for a profit? They're covered. The image can be redistributed in commercial materials as long as the terms of its license are followed.

Ah, but they can't freely modify the image, create derivative works, or use it without restriction. What about those people? Sucks to be them. If they want to abuse the International Symbol of Access to fuck with the mobility challenged, screw 'em. Wikipedia tolerates hundreds (thousands? more?) of Crown Copyright images which are free for use in educational materials, but require permission for commercial redistribution. Wikipedia tolerates thousands of non-free, copyrighted images under very tenuous 'fair use' claims. We expect that when people make copies or derivatives of articles incorporating these images, those people will take appropriate care to check the licensing of all the images on the page. Here, with the ISA, we have an image being used appropriately and which will likely propagate without harm into reasonable derivative works and commercial copies. Why are we choosing to get stuck on this particular point? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know what tag should go on the image page? - Peregrine Fisher 20:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Images with ‘tenuous’ fair use claims should be tagged accordingly or sent to WP:IFD. Other crap exists, but that’s not a reason to add to it. What about people who find themselves hindered by the third pillar? Well, sucks to be them. —xyzzyn 20:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Please explain how this is fair use. - Peregrine Fisher 21:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Images on Wikipedia are either free on unfree. There is no inbetween. This is en policy and was recently clarified in the foundation's licensing resolution, which states that images must be free (as in libre, which the ISA is not), or covered by an EDP, which is for the limited discussion of copyrighted works.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed g2s (talk • contribs) 21:57, April 1, 2007 (UTC)

Please read the Foundation resolution about what EDPs can and can't cover. As I noted above, the Foundation allows us to use nonfree content for "identifying protected works such as logos". There is no reason not to adjust our EDP to allow use of this image, in accordance with the limits the Foundation has set. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
That EDP page is interesting. Has anything besides Free and FU been discussed before? - Peregrine Fisher 22:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Our policy already allows for "identifying protected works". Its use on the ISA article is not being debated. Using it as a replacement for the text "disabled access available" is not "identifying [a] protected work". ed g2s • talk 01:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
We wouldn't be using it under fair use protection. We'd be using it under the rights granted to us by its copyright. - Peregrine Fisher 02:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I have an idea. Let's ban the use of the Wikipedia logo and the Wikimedia logo. After all, they're subject to the Wikimedia visual identity guidelines and not licensed under the GFDL, so they must be worthless and a detriment to our cause of creating free content. —Remember the dot (talk) 03:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Wikipedia logos have been removed and taken down from many pages, banners, and such for those very reasons. Image:Example.jpg used to be the Wikipedia logo, but because it wasn't a free image we took it off. Most people don't realize that Wikipedia's logo is not free use, which is pretty much the only reason we haven't taken it down from non-official uses, or uses unrelated to guidelines, policy, etc. -- Ned Scott 04:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
So what's the best way to take this to the foundation? It looks like if it was up to us, we would have a consensus to use it to identify handicapped access. At the least, we have a consensus to ask. Jimbo's page doesn't seem like the best place. The last time we tried that, it devolved into snarky comments, and he seemed to tune out. We should probably include the International Symbol for Deafness, and other ICTA symbols in our request. - Peregrine Fisher 03:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
foundation-l --Kim Bruning 03:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If you choose to e-mail them, please emphasize that the ICTA is not going to release this under a free license because they surely only want it used to identify handicapped accessibility. They would not be happy if people abused the image to mark non-handicapped-accessible things with this symbol. That would undermine the value of the symbol as an international identifier of handicapped accessibility. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's use the mailing list. Since this is where we're talking about it, let's discuss what points need to be made. I'll try and list the pros and cons so far. Copying some of the words used in the discussion so far.

Pro:

Using it to designate handicapped accessible objects does not violate its copyright.
The ISA may be freely used to illustrate handicapped accessibility.[3] The symbol's copyright is only to protect improper usage. As long as it is being used to denote a handicapped accessible facility or service, we are using it within its guidelines and not violating its copyright. It's copyright explicitly allows the uses for which we, and downstream users, would use it.
Its meaning is clear precisely because of its licensing terms.
Stereotyped signs, no matter how well intentioned, can often cause offense.
It is non-replaceable, except by Image:Wheelchair.svg or words such as "wheelchair accessible." These are not internationally recognized symbols.
You can profit from it. Look at those handicapped accessible restroom and parking signs companies sell.
It is universally recognised by design and common usage over many years.
It's use would be disability friendly.
The wikimediafoundation does sometimes allow exceptions with an EDP, which currently is WP:FU. FU doesn't speak to this issue.
It would not be used in userspace.
It is easily recognised by non-english speakers.
Using Image:Wheelchair.svg may not be legal, as it may be a derivative work of the ISA.
It is unlikely to be made free because it's copyright's only restriction prohibits its use to designate objects that are not handicapped accessible. Making it free would remove this restriction. They would not be happy if people abused the image to mark non-handicapped-accessible things with this symbol.

Con:

It's not free, and it wouldn't be used under fair use, unlike all images on wikipedia.
The symbol is copyrighted and so derivative works are not permitted.
We have a substitute image Image:Wheelchair.svg, or can use text such as "wheelchair accessible."
It's use would be a violation of Wikipedia policy.
Since we don't allow other free uses of images which which allow modification, we shouldn't do it in this case.
While it wouldn't be used in user space, it could be used in a template, and wouldn't have a (free use?) rational for each page.
They're may be international issues that are not raised in US law.
Wikipedia is not a guide for the handicapped.
It's use is not important.
It serves not educational purpose.
Our goal is to have all of our content under the GFDL, which this image would not be.
Images on Wikipedia are either free on unfree. There is no inbetween.

Did I miss anything important? - Peregrine Fisher 04:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm still baffled by this idea that not using the ISA image would be offensive. I'm not being rude here, I honestly am baffled. Have any of you known or lived with a disabled person? Also, while the ISA owns the blue wheel chair image with a stick figure, they can't make claim to every stick figure wheel chair image. Do you think that anyone was offended/confused, or even gave 2 seconds of thought, to images like these: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]? No disabled person is going to be angry or confused when seeing these other images in real life, on streets, maps, restrooms, rides, or ramps, why would they be? You guys need a touch of reality here, and you're making an issue out of nothing. Your over anticipating and trying to preemptively be PC for someone that most people, disabled or not, never even thought was an issue. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
First, I've never lived with a disabled person. I'm not going to say I'm offended, but the fact that our policies prevent us from using these easily understood symbols is troubling to me. My guess is that when someone sees our version of the wheelchair, they'll think that it probably means disabled access, but they won't be sure. People who don't know they can click on the image and gain additional information will remain slightly unsure.
Those image links you provide seem to be standard uses of the ISA. If using a red version like your first example is legal, but not restricted by the ISA copyright, I would be cool with that. We can just use red versions of all the disabled access symbols. I think they're all just legal uses of the ISA, though.
Will disabled people be pissed if we don't use the standard symbols? Some yes, some no. As we know, WP is mostly edited by able bodied white mails aged 15-45, or something close to that. We're not going to be good judges of what's best for the disabled. Because of this, I think that if we go out of our way to help the disabled more than seems necessary to us, then we'll be getting closer to what's right. We discuss FU vs. Free Use all day, and that makes it seem very important. If you were disabled all day, that would seem important. - Peregrine Fisher 05:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd go farther than that and say most disabled wouldn't even give which image used significant thought. We have no evidence to show otherwise, and only wild and unproven speculation. I'm not willing to "prove" my own experiences with such situations, for privacy reasons, but this is the first I've ever heard someone even suggest that a person might be offended because the disabled icon isn't exactly the same. It's really nice that you guys want to go out of your way to help people, but doing this.. thinking that it is helping disabled people, that's not what's happening. You're not hurting them.. but it's just kind of.. null. That's like me blowing at a house that's on fire, with my mouth, thinking I'm helping. Good intent, but at the end of the day it honestly makes no difference. Really, I'm not making this up. You guys have nothing but unfounded speculation to come to these conclusions. -- Ned Scott 05:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll give to you that this discussion is opinion, same as all talk page discussions. I don't know what you mean about proving your own experiences, but even if you yourself are disabled, that doesn't mean you speak for a whole segment of society. I just think we should err on the side of helping disabled people. This is something that some of us think will help disabled people, which isn't silly. Maybe this doesn't make that big of a difference in the lives of disabled people. I don't think that means we shouldn't try. Some things help the disabled a little, and some thing a lot. I say do both, if they don't hurt us. We should do everything we can, and this is easily within the power of the foundation, so we should do it. - Peregrine Fisher 06:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
While it's true that even if I was disabled (I'm not) that I wouldn't be able to speak for all disabled people (calling them a segment of society is a very inaccurate way to profile disabled people, who are individuals and have their own views), having some experience with disabled people would seem to trump no experience whatsoever. I don't mean to try to speak with authority, I just mean to point out that there's no evidence to support that there would be any confusion or cause of any offense. Your heart is in the right place, but using the ISA image on things like templates for Disneyland is painfully insignificant to a disabled person's life. We don't bend the rules just because you mean well, because in the end you're still wrong. -- Ned Scott 00:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I would call all of those examples derivative works of the ISA, except this one and possibly this one. The legality of derivative works is questionable, but it doesn't look like the ICTA is concerned about them because they are only being used in the context of illustrating handicapped accessibility. Thus, the restrictions the ICTA imposes on creation of derivative works of the ISA appear to be fairly relaxed. This is another thing to mention in the case for permitting use on Wikipedia.
I doubt that any free replacement would be used outside Wikipedia, even if the two symbols are of comparable artistic quality. It may seem counterintuitive to readers to use a symbol completely different from the one actually used in the real world. Thus, there is value in using the internationally recognized symbol in order to maintain consistency with the rest of the world.
The symbol is copyrighted for a very good reason. Do you deny this? If you do not deny that it's copyrighted for a good reason, then why should we refuse to use it in our project? —Remember the dot (talk) 06:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
My point in showing the other images was to show that people often use images that are similar but not the exact same as the standard ISA image, and do so without any incident whatsoever. We do not need a white on blue stick figure that is exactly like the ISA one. It won't seem counterintuitive to readers, there won't be confusion, because it's so minor no one will give it any thought. You have no evidence at all to support your speculations, and are blindly ignoring common sense. -- Ned Scott 00:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, lengthy debate here. The point is that the Foundation tells us to use free images whenever possible. We can use a free image here rather than a copyrighted one. That's the wiki philosophy. >Radiant< 09:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Lol, this discussion is just stupid and pointless beyond belief !!! And Jimbo saying that we can't use the image without changing the FU policy is even more STUPID (Sorry Jimbo, i really do feel so). We don't have a tag for it  ? MAKE a tag !! We don't have policy that says we can use it? MAKE it a policy that we can use this specific image!!! To say that we need to explicitly have an exception to the policy is just stupid for a single image. We could have 20 respectable editors sign of on it on the Image page and say: "It's ok to use this copyrighted image, in relation to disability topic within wikipedia etc etc etc." Categorize it as copyrighted image, Categorize it as "free to use, not to edit" and get it done with. This is Wikipedia bureaucracy that is pointless and disrupting even. Get over yourselves and over Jimbe (Jimbo is not WikiGod) --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 14:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you haven't yet signed the poll, I would like it if you would do so so that we can get an idea of the number of people agreeing and disagreeing. Another way to phrase the question would be "do the benefits of using this image outweigh the copyright restrictions?" Many of us say yes, and many say no. By all means, continue to discuss the issue. However, without signing the poll, it's hard to tell whether 90% or 50% of users support using this image. This is a question hard to decide by consensus, so it would really be helpful if we could at least identify strong support for one side or the other, see Wikipedia:Resolving disputes#Conduct a survey. —Remember the dot (talk) 16:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
You can't force people to use a survey. It's pretty obvious that we have tons of editors that would disagree with the usage you are trying to promote. My guess is a lot of people don't even think this is worth the trouble to talk about. It's that simple. -- Ned Scott 00:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, by my estimate, approximately 75% of the Wikipedians who have took place in this discussion have supported using the ISA to indicate handicapped accessibility. If you are claiming that the silent majority supports your position, then let me reiterate to you that the silent majority is silent, i.e. they haven't told us what they think.
I'm still waiting to hear your position on using the unfree Wikimedia logos in places such as Template:Interwikitmp-grp, Template:Commons, Template:InterWiki, Template:Meta, Template:Wikibooks, and Template:Wikiversity, not to mention every single page on Wikipedia. —Remember the dot (talk) 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You'll have to ask the Foundation, but my guess would be that the logo can be used for operational tasks of Wikipedia, but not as actual article content without a rationale. But for all we know, we should take them out of those templates too. The logo was Image:example.jpg for years before it was finally taken out. Most people don't even know the logos are not under the GFDL.
As for the sidebar itself, that is not considered to be part of the article document, just a part of the page displaying the content. About.com can display their copyrighted logo along side their mirrored copy of Wikipedia content, because the article is not "the entire window". The entire window is just how the end product is produced, nothing more than a UI, and the article is within the UI.
As for the silent majority, you can't just ignore past discussions about similar issues simply because it's not in -this- discussion. We do not ignore the thoughts and concerns of our fellow Wikipedias just because they can't watch every possible discussion, especially when we know they have strong positions on such matters. Do you honestly think we can't round up an assload of Wikipedians to push that little survey the other way around by simply making this discussion better known? A poll, even if recent, does not just debunk previous discussion or well known arguments of active Wikipedians. Like I said before, no one has probably bothered to get more attention to this discussion, or has seen the discussion but passed it up, because many of us feel this is such a minor and obvious issue. Keep pushing the issue if you really want to be proven wrong so badly, but I'd rather you not, for the sake of using all of our time more wisely. -- Ned Scott 03:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Where are these past discussions? Who participated in them? How similar are they to this instance?
You assume that these other Wikipedians support your position and that is why they are not commenting. However, Wikipedians such as Amarkov and Badagnani indicated the exact opposite, saying that it is very clear that we should be able to use this image. Even if the other Wikipedians are all rolling their eyes at this discussion and staying aloof from it, their disinclination to participate does not indicate support for one side or the other.
You may be surprised to know that I sent out notices to several editors who participated in previous discussions about this exact same issue, and that there is currently an RFC open on this topic. By all means, please inform other editors who you think would like to participate. We could even open a request for mediation, although unless I misunderstand the policy, all 24 (by my count) Wikipedians who have commented would have to sign off on it. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Guessing what wikipedians who aren't commenting think isn't binding, obviously. But, my experience with these wikipedia name space talk pages is that this is where the strict interpretation crowd hangs out. It would be cool if we could get a watchlist notice like WP:ATT has right now. I think the more diverse the group of people brought in, the higher the proportion of support for these images would be. The proportion of support is actually enormously high considering who traffics these page. - Peregrine Fisher 05:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
A watchlist notice is an interesting idea, but we should wait until the WP:ATT controversy blows over before putting up another notice. That way, we'd be less likely to anger Wikipedians over overuse of that mechanism. And by that time, we may already have this discussion resolved. —Remember the dot (talk) 06:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, we don't want to try and do the watchlist thing now. Maybe after this discussion plays out, and if we have a consensus, we should implement the changes in policy that we've been discussing. It seems like Jimbo and rest of WP didn't even notice the whole WP:ATT merge until after it was done. After that, we can discuss the watchlist notification if people have a problem. - Peregrine Fisher 06:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I seriously doubt they'd make a watchlist announcement for something like this. If you guys really want to get down to business then I suggest we make this a little more organized and less poll-ish, maybe using a separate, structured discussion, RFC page (summaries on one side, structured discussion on the talk side). We might also get some good insight by asking for comments from Wikipedians listed in Category:Wikipedians by physiological condition's subcats. Feel free to even keep counts and comments that are already existing, but right now the discussion is all over the place and needs to be a little better formatted. I still think it's a waste of time, but it might be a good lesson for you guys. Remember, you can have good intentions but completely miss the point, especially when you don't have a clue about what you're talking about in the first place.. -- Ned Scott 07:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
An RfC might be a good idea. What's the procedure for keeping counts and comments from what's happened before? - Peregrine Fisher 07:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
DJ, the issue is when the image isn't being used in articles about disability, instead being used in articles like ones for Disneyland rides (in the infobox, with only the icon being shown). -- Ned Scott 00:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Disneyland rides are just one possible use, and probably a minor one. If we can get the copyright stuff figured out, we could include any of the 13 disability access symbols on appropriate pages. Things like museums, libraries, television programs, and books. - Peregrine Fisher 01:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
For a moment, lets say all of these images are free use images and we have no such problem. The images are being used as if we were some kind of travel guide, rather than helping article content. Just because the guide seems like it's for a good cause doesn't make it any less of a guide. Now, I'm sure we don't need to take out stuff simply for that reason, as long as it doesn't get out of hand then who cares if Wikipedia helps you find a handicapped ramp, but that's a secondary concern that is outside of the article's real content. Don't forget that we are an encyclopedia, not a place to dump every possible tid bit of info. Information for disabled people is abundant and easily accessed for the kind of uses you guys are talking about, and there's no demand for us to fill this extra role. -- Ned Scott 03:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like encyclopedic information to me, when used within an already encyclopedic article. A list of disability accessible whatevers would seem to be more of a guide. Also, because other sites may have similar info doesn't mean we shouldn't. - Peregrine Fisher 03:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
List of New York City Subway stations is an example of its use; essentially it makes the table smaller than saying "handicapped accessible". --NE2 03:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I could see how having this information for the NYC subway might be helpful to researchers of disability accessibility and as such I think it belongs in wikipedia --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 11:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A user talk page without vandalism has been protected - is this appropriate?

I'd like some clarification on an issue. An admin has protected User talk:Qxz so that nobody can cantact that individual nor comment on that individual's recent conflict.

I couldn't find anything in policy that allows a talk page to be protected except in the case of vandalism, and then only as a last resort and only for as long as necessary to thwart such vandalism. Can a user request that his talk page be protected just so that he can't be contacted?

I haven't run into this before, and it seems counter to the nature of the Wikipedia project. Please unprotect the page so that the community, me included, can console the individual, who has had a wiki-stress blowout. He also left a message on my talk page, which I'd like to respond to on his talk page.

Or at least quote the specific policy or precedent on this issue. Thank you. The Transhumanist   05:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Note: I was the administrator responsible for protecting Qxz's page per interpretation of meta:Right to vanish. Similar measures have been taken in the past, most recently with respect to User talk:Essjay. Qxz made it quite clear[10][11] (see [12] for more) that he/she did not wish anyone to edit his/her talk page. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 05:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC) (copy of post to WP:RPP ˉˉanetode╦╩ 05:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC))
I brought this up (vaguely) at WP:VPM to no response. I am unsure of my reasoning, but I would prefer the talk page unprotected. --Iamunknown 05:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

For future reference, what should the policy on users requesting (or implying they want) protection of their talk page be? The Transhumanist   06:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

If they are gone there is no need to have them unprotected. We can always unprotect when they make an appearance again (like those many fake wikibreaks). Apart from that it is a kindness to protect userspace from vandalism and attacks while the target is not around to deal with it him/herself. Agathoclea 17:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Policy on Pages about Commercial Entities

I note that I can find Wikipedia entries on a great many commercial companies, (search for Sony for instance). If you search for Hoover, there is even a section heading: 'Companies named Hoover'.


Are there rules or codes of practice that govern the insertion of pages about companies?


If so what are they and where are they published? (Please don't say FAQs, as I have already spent a ridiculous amount of time browsing FAQs.)

Thank you

Nic Williamson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.210.44 (talk) 11:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

WP:CORP, WP:COI, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:SPAM. That should be a good start. Αργυριου (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) and the pages it references, in particular Wikipedia:Autobiography and Wikipedia is not for advertising. The basic principles are Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Attribution. General advice: don't create an article about your own company to promote it (or a competitor to criticize it). -- Rick Block (talk) 16:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll

Per comments on the Talk page here, and in other locales, it appears groups of editors are specifically against Jimbo's specifically requested public poll to gauge thoughts/support on the idea of the ATT merger. As it has been stated that the Poll is "dead" per users such as User:WAS 4.250, I am nominating this. If there is wide spread support to run this poll, this page should be kept. The MfD is here:

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll

Thank you. - Denny 16:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Poll

A poll collecting opinions about WP:ATT is now open at Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Poll is not yet opened. -- Ned Scott 03:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It was open until you and another editor closed it after more than 20 people made their opinions known. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Poll was re-opened. Pardon our dust. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of sports figures

Over in the talk page for Wikipedia:Notability (People) is a discussion as to what constitutes a notable football (or soccer, for us yanks) player, stemmed from the proliferance of "sunday-league" football teams here in Wikipedia. The problem is that I don't see any policy that reflects any notability standards for sports figures as a whole. This begs the questions: One, is such a policy really necessary, in the opinions of the readers here? Two, just what would constitute "notability" for sports figures? (I'd propose that, if they are on a team, that would be a rather weak figure of what's notable, so there needs to be other reasons for their placement here on WP.) Thoughts? --Dennisthe2 20:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

As regards reasons for WP articles on sports figures I should think that the notability of professional sportsmen is on a par with local politicians. The regular squad members of a historical team in a competitive league would equate to the members of a State Senate or City Council, in that the roles will be filled by different individuals over a period. The major characters (Captains, Presidents, Mayors) are notable as a matter of course, and some positions (leading goalscorer, VP's, Deputy Mayor/Treasurer) or other claim to fame (international player, active in some other field, etc) and simply long serving members are also notable. Those appear for a shorter period of time in whichever, but without much other notability, are perhaps only a stub. At what point a team member becomes notable in their own right will likely always be subjective (does half a season for Manchester United count as more, less or the same for a few years for a lower league club, or a Assistant Assistant to X in New York the same Vice Treasury Chairman for State of Zzzz?) LessHeard vanU 21:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the notability guidelines, even the main one at WP:N are important tools for helping decide the possibility that the subject of an article may not be worthy of said article. However, one should never blindly apply them to an entire category of articles and assume that "all X are notable" or "all x are not notable". Such statement may by coincidence be true (For example, all US presidents are notable, being a small set.) but it does not hold that it is always true. The best way to decide if the subject of an article is notable enough to avoid deletion is to determine if enough source material exists to write an encyclopedia article from That is all that WP:N and all of the derivative guidelines are about. For example, it is hard to establish that a U.S. Army seargant should be notable on face value, at any given time there are thousands, and few have any extensive source material about their lives to draw from. However, no one should be able to claim that Alvin York is not notable. We could imagine, based on other similar guidelines, that someone could create a guideline named Notability (military personal), where it said something like "Military personel who have a rank lower than Colonel (or the equivalent) are generally not notable." That, however, does not make Alvin York a deletable article. Likewise, while we could note that "Sunday League" players are not inherently notable, if extensive reliable source material could be found on one, then there is no reason an article could not be written. So, if you want to know if it is appropriate to write an article about a Sunday League player; if you are sitting down looking at a book-length biography of one that has been published by a reputable publishing house, then probably yes. If its a buddy of yours who plays for a local team to keep in shape, then probably no. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tweak to username policy

A change has been proposed at WP:U for a slight expansion of the current ban on usernames which reference "reproductive and excretory functions of the body" to include flatulence and vomiting. RJASE1 Talk 21:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New deletion system proposed.

According to the oft-cited guideline WP:NOVOTE and the policy WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a democracy. This means that votes should be deleted to prevent these policies from being violated.

To facilitate this, I am hereby proposing the new Votes for deletion system, in which votes can be proposed for deletion. Please comment here or on the talk page! —Dark•Shikari[T] 00:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Support. Wonderful idea. Should pass by supermajority. Gatorphat 19:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use on main page?

I feel obligated to point out Wikipedia talk:Fair use exemptions#Removing exception in policy for "Main Page", because 1) it's grown rather large (50+ editors), 2) I only see it linked to on WP:AN, and 3) it's probably going to make a lot of people angry if it actually starts getting enforced. Nifboy 03:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why Exactly Do We Use [citation needed]?

I'm becoming increasingly dismayed at the number of times I see [citation needed] and related templates in many of Wikipedia's articles. I come here for an authoritative source on a wealth of information. A well written, feature worthy article without good sources is useless garbage. I know accuracy isn't always going to be 100%, but I know it's going to be very good. I also know that alot of people are working hard to maintain such a level of excellence. The majority of articles are decently written and sourced well.

However, why is it that unverified, unsourced information should be allowed to sit around? It undermines not only the rest of the article but also a user's trust in Wikipedia in general. WP:V says "Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long", but I'm seeing time and time again that unsourced information (be they bits, sections, or entire articles) sometimes just sits around for whatever reason. Surely I can't be the only person who believes that unsourced information should always be swiftly removed and only be put back in after a source is found. Removing unsourced information upsets people and sometimes generally descends into internet shenanigans, but isn't it more important to have accurate sourced articles not peppered with "Random statement [citation needed]"? Isn't anyone else sick of [citation needed] et al? --68.13.147.241 08:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Because quite often there is no particular reason to doubt a statement's accuracy, but it does need and presumably has a citation. By putting the flag out, we can hopefully find someone who knows where confirmation can be found.
For instance, I read in a TV show related article recently that the voice-acting director changed halfway through the second season. I have no reason to think the editor was lying, it seems plausible enough and the people mentioned are all real, so I'm not worried that statement spreading disinformation. It doesn't merit removal to the talk page or deletion from the page, but it really does need a source to be given. So I mark it with {{citation needed}}, and wait to see if someone else knows where that information is from. (It doesn't disrupt my reading either, but that's probably because I'm used to it.) --tjstrf talk 08:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear 68.13.147.241, I think you are totally right. I think it should be a policy that any statement left standing with a "citation" tag for more than 14 days should be deleted summarily. Any article without sources should be deleted 10 days as such. Wikipedia is having enough problems as it is without these vandals and malcontents allowed to destory sourced information sources. Thanks, Gatorphat 17:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This would lead to slow motion vandalism; tagging normally cannot be regarded as vandalism, and the reality is most fact tags don't get sorted in anything like 10 days. Vandals would be able to scatter tags freely, and wait for the almost inevitable result. I would say that fewer than 50% of the ones in articles I watch end up with the statement being significantly changed. There is currently one on Icon, for example, on "... Islam, severely limit(s) the use of visual representations[citation needed]." The comments of the placer, User:LoveMonkey on the talk page around the subject are also interesting. Johnbod 17:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Gatorphat, I'm not sure where you got that 14 days thing, but what I do is remove any citation that seems wholly unfounded and leave any that I think is probably correct but just needs a citation. Editor judgment, I guess. --Iamunknown 22:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
In controversial articles, indiscriminate scattering of {{fact}} tags often is used to push a POV or waste other people's time. For this reason I think the policy that Gatorphat proposes is unwise. Raymond Arritt 22:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I would tend to disagree (although I guess it would depend on how they're used, as well). Usually, I'll use {{fact}} to indicate that a statement which is relatively harmless (not a BLP concern, etc.) is plausible but unconfirmed and I can't find anything reliable to confirm it. I also will use it on statements that look like they may be personal knowledge or synthesis. There's also {{who}} for unattributed statements with weasel wording ("Some critics state..." "Many people argue..." "Others believe..." and the like). In most of these cases, while the tagged statements are relatively innocuous, they're also potentially incorrect, and probably should be removed if they remain unattributed for too long. There is nothing wrong with cutting (I'm not sure what the general resistance to that is, it's a normal and beneficial part of the editorial process), and unsourced material and synthesis is a fine place to start. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Oooo, I didn't know about {{who}}. Unsourced BLP pruning is, in my book, an absolute must. --Iamunknown 05:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, if it's BLP, it shouldn't be tagged, it should be removed the moment you see it, not moved to the talk page, etc. This more concerns statements that are relatively harmless and plausible, but are unsourced. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict - original response to Gatorphat, but responds to comments above also) The most legitimate use is where a statement or fact is made, and the rest of the section includes cited references of the discussion or consequences of that statement/fact. Removing the tagged statement statement as no author has managed to find a good reference after a set number of days would not serve the article or WP. An example may be Ghandi; if his assassination were tagged (everyone knows he was murdered, but we need a cite for the date and place) and then removed after X days the rest of the section dealing with the consequences for the region, all with good sources well referenced, suddenly becomes unintelligible. The cite request needs to stay for as long as there is no third party source for the time, date, place and manner of the death.
Another problem with removing uncited statements within X days of the placing of a tag is that the smaller articles and projects are disadvantaged. An article watched by numerous editors will be resolved a lot quicker than one which is not watched (at least by anybody with access to the information required), although both are legitimate articles. LessHeard vanU 23:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm failing to see the "disadvantage". Sourcing isn't a nicety, it's a requirement. "Don't write unsourced material" applies equally to a project with one member as it does to one with one thousand. Now, of course, if the statement is relatively harmless and plausible (not a BLP concern, obvious editorial, totally implausible statement, etc.), people certainly should look for a source before removing, but if one can't be found, it's eventually got to go. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
eventually yes, but eventually is not 10 days, especially on smaller articles. Johnbod 12:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think a fixed "time limit" is generally a bad idea, and should depend on the case. Harmful (BLP, potential libel, totally implausible) statements should be removed immediately. Statements which are plausible but unconfirmed should be given some time (and the level of activity on the page should be a consideration as to how much), others that are very likely true but could just do with a citation could probably be left almost indefinitely. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Using my fictional example of Ghandi; if an editor was using as a source a book about the partitioning of India which notes the consequences of the murder of Ghandi, but not the circumstances (since it isn't in the book) of the death, why should the section/article be effectively made incomprehensible because another editor (correctly and in good faith) places a cite tag against Ghandi's assassination - which part is removed X days later? LessHeard vanU 15:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Look at it this way. If a statement is uncontroversial, unlikely to be challenged, or likely to be easily referencable, but as yet is not referenced, the {{fact}} tag is appropriate. However, for statements that are likely to be controversial, inflamatory, or otherwise generate objection, they should be removed post-haste and without prejudice. Consider these two (fictional) examples:

  1. In an article on George Washington, a statement is made that he participated in the seige of Fort Duquesne, where he led a group of English Soldiers. This statement is uncontroversial and easily referencable, but it is not currently referenced. THAT is an appropriate use of the {{fact}} tag.
  2. In an article on George Washington, a statement is made that he kept young boy slaves for the purpose of pederasty, and was a founding member of NAMBLA. This statement is inflamatory and controversial and appears false or misleading at face value. As such, if there is no reliable reference, it should be removed. Leaving a {{fact}} tag here is pointless.

Also, people should avoid overusing the fact tag. If an article is mostly unreferenced, leave the cleanup tag {{unreferenced}} at the top of the article. Or best of all, do some research yourself and fix it!. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 16:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

A time limit assumes that people who can respond will be aware of the situation and will have sufficient time to respond. There is no mechanism for ensuring notification of action on obscure articles, nor for ensuring editors will have time and resources to quickly respond (which may involve time and travel to a library or book collection). (SEWilco 16:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC))
There is a reason (many of them, actually) that Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles did not achieve consensus. -- nae'blis 18:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BLP

I have been reading up on some various policies since I cam here to write sourced articles on biography people. So I been reading the "BLp" policy that ostensibly wants to have a goal of reducing libel. But the HUGE loophole I found is that you can have libellous comments about other people in a living person's biography.

Like for instance I could insert "<removed>" in the biography about Adam Corrolla, and it would be ok with the "BLP" policy. Can someone propose a way to close this glaring omission and loophole pleae?17:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see this loophole, the policy applies to any non-sourced negative information: "Accordingly, editors must take particular care with writing and editing biographies of living persons, and biographical material anywhere on Wikipedia, with the following practice in mind..." --Golbez 17:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
And if your comment was a nice attempt, too bad. ;) --Golbez 17:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HTML MAP element in WP

     Republic of the Congo      Democratic Republic of the Congo      ... but what are all those other countries???
     Republic of the Congo      Democratic Republic of the Congo      ... but what are all those other countries???

Hi!

  1. Why aren't HTML image MAP elements allowed in wikipwdia?
    1. Is that likely to change soon?
    2. Is there a workaround/alternative?
  2. How/where does one look for the answers to such questions?

Thanks. Saintrain 19:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there's an alternative, using the Imagemap extension.-gadfium 20:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks gadfium. Looks like that will do the trick! And a lot more! --Saintrain 00:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


(Carried over to Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Extensions, alternative, & workarounds)

[edit] Policy regarding "Criticism" subheadings

(moved from talk page)

I have noticed some differences in how articles have their 'Criticism' section structured. For some, such as the Microsoft article the Criticism section contains a description of the various criticisms levied against the subject. While in other articles, such as the Amnesty International article, there is rather a 'Criticism and response' section, where each point of criticism has been given a counterpoint or refutation. Is it policy that criticism sections should, alternatively can, include response lines? And would acceptable response lines be from third parties, or preferably the organisation itself? 88.105.239.158 20:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, criticism should include all major points of view in order to maintain WP:NPOV, regardless of them being in a section called criticism or not. So the article for Bill Gates should include not only the criticisms of Gates, but also the response to those criticisms. The source for the response does not really matter as long as it is properly attributed. I've never been a fan of criticism/controversy sections and have argued against their inclusion in articles because it is, in my opinion, the POV equivalent of trivia sections. Criticism sections tend to become the dumping ground for every minor criticism/controversy of the article's subject and rarely include all points of view on the "criticism" and frequently fail to say why the information is a criticism or a controversy. I have yet to find a notable criticism/controversy included in a criticism/controversy section that could not be worked into the existing prose of an article, or if need be, given its own section. --Bobblehead 20:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A further point is that criticism is not necessarily negative, and that positive criticism is permitted. It is only as "bad news" is considered more interesting that the term has come to be perceived as only negative review and comment. As for who the respondees should be in referencing rebuttal of various points of view; any reliable published source. Two journals in a field may come to different conclusions over a matter, so both should be quoted and cited. The article subject may also make a detailed response, and should be referenced.
As Bobblehead stated above, the major criticism of a subject should be included in the main body of text anyway.LessHeard vanU 22:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, that usually works a lot better than "Criticism" headers. This does depend on the subject-in some cases, such as writing about a film, "Critical response" sections are entirely appropriate. In most cases, though (people, corporations, etc.), if there are notable and sourceable criticisms, just work it into the article. "Criticism" sections are even worse than "Trivia" or "In popular culture" ones because they tend to become a dumping ground for unsourced, weasel-worded garbage, and quite often violate undue weight (in either direction, sometimes a "criticism" section at the end of the article makes the rest of it read like a puff piece). They should certainly be discouraged. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the policy on signing talk page comments?

I recently say a signing that was this:

-I - amazingly - am not playing Tardis Tennis at the moment. 4 July 2005 11:11 (UTC)

The text nor the link had anything to do with anything the discussion was about and the user had this same signature for multiple posts. What is the policy for this and would be it appropriate to edit the users signature? Thanks,-Dacium 02:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This user hasn't edited in roughly 18 months. If the user were actively editing I'd suggest asking him/her to change the signature (external links are not allowed in signatures, per Wikipedia:Signatures). Editing a signature in a comment made over a year ago seems not exactly necessary, but if it really bothers you for some reason I'd say go right ahead. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I used this one as an example because I sort of know the user is no longer active. However I have seen many signatures that are very similair (have long sentences and external links, is there a policy for this?--Dacium 04:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest you read the guideline, as Wikipedia:Signatures#Length and Wikipedia:Signatures#External links answer both your questions. EVula // talk // ☯ // 14:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks thats what i was looking for.. dont know why i didnt try WP:SIG doh :-(--Dacium 04:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Would it violate NPOV to require a scientific viewpoint?

Articles about the supernatural like ghost and qi are written from a thoroughly unscientific viewpoint. That is, they give (what I feel to be) undue weight to the possibility that these entities exist. In the same way that we require articles about fictional entities to not be written from an in-universe style, I think that we should require articles about unscientific topics to clearly state that their existences are not supported by science. Would this violate NPOV? And to dig myself even further into a hole, I would like to extend this question beyond articles on the supernatural to articles about religious topics and articles about pseudoscience (as determined by scientific consensus). Would it violate NPOV to put some kind of "this is unscientific" disclaimer onto those? --JianLi 05:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has a long history here. The outcome of this discussion is most clear for fields which claim to be science but are not. Compare WP:SCIENCE, WP:FRINGE (for extreme cases WP:BOLLOCKS) and the outcome and discussions of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience.
Pjacobi 12:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3 Strikes and you're out.

I might be new here, but even I can realize that there is something wrong with something like this for eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:64.60.74.162. That particular example is a obvious and typical "vandal" that will not change his way all of a sudden and decide to become a happy cheerful person that will want to contribute to "wikipedia". As a matter of fact that particular user has vandalized over 100 times and has been doing so for about 3 years and all he gets is please stop..... wikipedia is very serious.... u have been a notty boy??!?!PLEASE.... I suggest (AND I am sure it has been suggest 69million times before but) after an annonymous user makes 3 random vandalisms and gives no response to anyone (so therefore ignored the comments given to stop vandalizing and keeps on doing it) that person should be blocked perminatelly. If anything, that person (after his life changes?) decided to not vandalize anymore, he should write something along the lines of im so sorry blahblahblah (Would a vandal really be bothered to go through that? I mean do they really have no lives?) Give me you're opinions. (Please dont tell me I posted in the wrong spot lol)ps if this has been suggested recently please show me where, so i can add my support. Cya. petze 14:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not indefinitely block IP addresses. x42bn6 Talk 14:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
64.60.74.162 (talk • contribs) was actually blocked for six months back in January, the most recent of several blocks.[13] Most of the "please stop" warnings are actually automated bot notices. You can't assume that an IP will always represent the same user. Many persistently vandalizing IPs are actually school computers rather than private individuals. But yes, repeat vandalism over time from the same source justifies lengthier blocks. Postdlf 14:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Usually, an IP that's repeatedly problematic is blocked for quite a while (and open proxies are indef blocked, before someone asks "Why is IP suchandsuch blocked indef then?"). However, a lot of IPs are either shared between multiple users, or regularly change hands. If we block an IP indef today, it may be getting used by someone who wants to contribute constructively tomorrow. In the case of schools and such, if nothing else, the kid doing it is eventually going to get bored of doing it after getting a few months' block, or finish school. (Or get kicked out of it, if they act at school anything like they do here...). That's why we don't indefblock IP's. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I guess that makes sence then....then again though, if my ip was blocked for example (if my ip was shared and someone was vandalizing with the same IP as me) i would probably make contact with an administrator to get the situation cleared out? But then again if you were not given the option to edit automatically, that might deter people from starting to contribute all together. Thanks for all of the responses. It deff cleared things up for me. petze 15:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many policies

If you agree that Wikipedia has too many policies, list your suggestions for merging them on Wikipedia:Overlapping policies and guidelines. >Radiant< 14:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Too bad April 1st has already come and gone, otherwise I'd suggest we draw up a policy regarding this. ;) EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion to alter a speedy deletion criterion

Please see WT:CSD#Alerting criterion R2 if you have any input on the matter; thank you. GracenotesT § 15:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Username RFC archiving proposal

The current regime of WP:RFCN, which uses edit history's archived revision as archive of closed discussions, creates a lots of confusion. I propose that the archiving of RFCN to use the same method as we do in WP:AFD and WP:MFD, to put archives directly on subpages rather than in edit history. Wooyi 15:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commons media categorisation

I've posted this question to several places more relevant to images, but I haven't really gotten much feedback. I've encountered a user who has created several categories for images as analogues to categories on the Commons based on the idea that then linking those categories to the Commons makes locating images easier, even though there is far less image content on WP and so the result is many categories for a few images; they have even begun categorising Commons media that are not even used on WP (1,2,3,4) so as to populate the hierarchy of categories created (1,2). My understanding was that we were actively in the process of moving all free images to the Commons, and so it followed that if not reducing image infrastructure on WP, we shouldn't be increasing it. After an inquiry to an admin working on image categorisation that recommended that I transwiki to the Commons any images that were on WP, and which led to deletion of one of the images, this user promptly created a page for the Commons image and again categorised it on WP. According to that sort of convention, what stops us from categorising every image from the Commons by their WP description pages, thus pretty much negating the utility of separate projects? Please advise, TewfikTalk 18:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Privacy proposals - status unclear

The status of the following old policy proposals is somewhat unclear:

They were all tagged {{rejected}} until recently when tags of all three were changed to {{disputed}} by the same user. Two of them are currently protected until the status is resolved. I am not trying to revive any of these proposals; I think that none of them is close to having consensus and they should all be marked as rejected. But it seems that a discussion is required to decide on their status. CMummert · talk 20:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I hadn't followed this discussion so far. But immediatly when reading this I thought: Why not state on the edit page of [[User:]] "Be careful with providing personal information on your Wikipedia userpage" (or something more directly targeted at children ?? I really don't care what goes there exactly). I mean it would be technically possible to add a small message just above the editpage box of a User page wouldn't it ? And we don't become babysitters like Yaksha was afraid of with such a message, while still doing something along a "best-effort", which is quite a lot of effort for a non-profit organization! --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 23:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
So what i was hinting as what we have on the edit box of talk pages for instance: "This is a talk page. Please respect the talk page guidelines, and remember to sign your posts using four tildes (--TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 23:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC))."

[edit] Infoboxneeded Template

There has been some question if the {{Infoboxneeded}} template should be placed on the talk page or on the article itself, on the top of the page. I think it is a no-brainer: when it is on the talk page, no one sees it! Point: I added "infobox needed" to several articles and they got updated. I have also watched these exact same articles that have "infoboxneeded" on the talk page, and they do NOT get updated. Check out any of the North Dakota counties articles. I added "infoboxneeded" to the article and they were changed within a week, but the infoboxneeded banners on the talk page (placed weeks before I added the infoboxneeded banners to the article) are still there. What does this mean? It means that placing the banner on the article gets results; placing the banner on the talk page DOES NOT. I'm hoping we can reach a consensus on where infoboxneeded should be placed. Discuss here or (better) on the infoboxneeded talk page.

Currently the infoboxneeded template states that the banner should, indeed, be placed on the article. I cannot see where there is official policy on something like this, but it seems clear that to help articles get better, the template belongs on the article. Please comment here or on the infoboxneeded talk page. — Timneu22 00:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

9 times out of 10 cleanup tags usually go on the article itself. Plus when it's on the talk page, it takes an unnecessary extra edit edit, and sometimes will stay on when an editor adds an infobox without knowing there's a tag on the talk page. --YbborTalkSurvey! 02:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed... Timneu22 10:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

The general WP:Notability guideline has had a major overhaul after failing a consensus straw poll. An editor has been WP:BOLD and removed the disputed and discussion tags after a stable version has apparently been generated. The true test of WP:Consensus is whether it is maintained when exposed to a wider audience. So please have a look at the new version. Your input is welcome at WT:N, but please bring any new ideas to this talk page first, and also review the extensive discussion there. Remember that guidelines on WP should reflect the consensus opinion of the community at large, which may differ from your preferred vision. Dhaluza 01:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blocking Tor proxies and censorship in China

The blocking of Tor proxies can collude with Internet censorship by the Chinese government. Please have a look at this discussion on the blocking of Tor proxies: Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy#Softblock for Tor proxies. —Babelfisch 07:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../v/i/l/Wikipedia%7EVillage_pump_%28policy%29_070f.html"
In other languages