Talk:Video games that have been considered the greatest ever

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[edit] Start

couldn't resist, I went ahead and started this article since I think it's a great idea. I've tried to avoid bias, including games that I have never played or personally think are overrated, but I'm sure there's no way that a single person could do this alone and be NPOV. There's probably a bias towards console RPGs right now, since I rarely play other games. You 17:31, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Some of the places I got these from, I'm sure someone else can verify these, and I plan on adding more and also more games to the list as I find more sources-

  • A magazine review quoted on the back of the case for FF7 cites a magazine (EGM I think? I'll have to check) as saying that FF7 is "Quite possibly the greatest video game ever made" or something to that effect (don't remember exact words.
  • In issue 100 of Nintendo Power (Septemeber 1997 I belive,) a list of the 100 greatest games of all time (obviously, on Nintendo systems only) was published and Super Mario 64 came in first.
  • According to the Wikipedia article on Super Metroid, EGM stated something to the effect that it was "the greatest video game ever made."
I would highly discourage using any individual magazine or website's reviews; I don't consider any of them to be "credible" enough for consideration. For that reason I might defer to Game Ranking's lists, which compile scores from dozens of magazines and websites. Nifboy 23:40, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] missing from the list

Eh, what's about Pac-man, Galaga, SiniStar, and other arcade classics? Do they not count as video games? Ms. Pac-man's sold more than Super Mario Bros. This is an extremely sloppy list, it should be done by genre or platform.

Do you have a reference? Nifboy 04:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I notice several are missing that should *probably* be here...

  1. the original Legend of Zelda made a heap of sales for its time
  2. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time also apparently made record sales
  3. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas sold big time too (not sure if it was exactly a record-breaker)
  4. Halo 2. Not sure about its sales but I think it came in second or third to San Andreas...?
  5. didn't Perfect Dark sell as many (or more?) units than its engine-sharer GoldenEye 007?
  6. Doom and Duke Nukem 3D probably sold a million fraggilion copies too...
  7. oh and Pokemon Red and Blue (and probably other colours too) probably sold in ludicrous quantities...

So, um, yeah... most of those sales statistics you can find already referenced on the original page. Master Thief GarrettTalk 00:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

LoZ:OoT sold 6 mil total, I think. San Andreas and Halo 2 were the top two sellers in 2004, despite being released late in the year. They sold 5 and 4 million in 2004, respectively, and those are the most recent numbers I could find; both will likely sell another million or two over the next year. Perfect Dark sold maybe half what GoldenEye did, despite having better overall reviews. Doom and Duke Nukem probably also sold millions of copies as well, but so have dozens of other games.
The NPD website lists the top games for each year/month, but won't give numbers. Looking at the lists, though, Madden is a regular chart-topper, and was #1 in 2003. Nifboy 02:33, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
6 million? That's not very many considering its widespread acclaim... so what minimum figure do you think is acceptable? Right now it seems to be ~5-6 million. Otherwise this list could get crammed with all sorts of games that sold well but didn't last *cough Doom 3 cough* Master Thief GarrettTalk 03:35, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I think 10 million sounds good, but it reduces the list to the Mario series + Tetris (+ mention of SMB1 and Tetris being packaged with the NES and GB, respectively) + The Sims (top PC game). 'Course, the movie equivalent page just lists the top ten plus past record holders. On top of that, I think NPD only records US sales. Nifboy 03:48, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Problem is, though, this is supposed to be a "best ever" list, not a "best sellers" one. Many games sold well due to hype, but when gamers actually *played* them their opinions diminished. So ideally it's not just on sales alone. Hm... Master Thief GarrettTalk 04:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Which is why the best movie page uses other criteria along with sales. I mentioned Game Rankings earlier, and threw in the two user polls that I knew of in the article. Nifboy 05:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Ah, so I see. Well maybe require that the game wins a Game of the Year or two. I mean, any crappy game can sell millions based on marketing hype and a shiny graphics engine, but reviewers get to *play* it first; they know a good game when they see one and aren't afraid to tell you so. Personally I'd rank print magazines' opinions slightly higher, but the advantage of websites is that the reader can instantly click-through to see *why* they gave it GOTY. Master Thief GarrettTalk 05:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
      • The main problem with this wiki is that there are literally hundreds of gaming magazines all around the world, as well as hundreds of similar websites, and virtually all of them have done such polls at one point or another. Any attempt to list them would be inconclusive. The wiki as it currently stands only lists less than a dozen individual sources, chosen seemingly at random, and is therefore worthless. That's before taking into account the merits of individual sources - for example, the "notoriously tough" Famitsu magazine is also notorious for having its scores bought...

[edit] what about ports in those totals?

Like for GTA Vice City that game was ported to PC and sold some more there. And Tomb Raider II was simultaneously released on PC. So do you think it's a good idea to add up multi-console figures? On the other hand a multi-platform release means a wider audience thus making one game appear more popular than a single-console game... hmmm... unless you say "6 million on PC, 5 million on Xbox, 2 millon on PS2" or something like that... Master Thief GarrettTalk 03:35, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. Games get more coverage if they are on more consoles, and therefore games like Halo 2 which is only for Xbox, wouldn't sell as much. 007bond 21:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry for all this...

It seems I didn't think this thoroughly through when I nominated this article for GCOTW. After some digging, I found that claims of a game being the best ever are a dime a dozen and meaningful comparisons are very hard to come by. But since the article is now here, we might as well make the best of it. I still think a good article on this topic can be written, it's just a lot of work. One pretty decent reference I found was [1] (Yes, it's GamySpy again, but they claim to have made a poll of about 100 experts, whatever that means. I think "Best ever" lists don't get much better sourced than that) It's also quite old (July 2001), but a classic wins it (Doom), so that's probably okay. I'm not throwing it into the article right away, because that would mean too much GameSpy, so I'm going to look for a few other references first. -- grm_wnr Esc 01:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm adding it now anyway, because the article sorely needs it. But more additions of this kind are certainly sorely needed as well. -- grm_wnr Esc 02:04, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Well right now IGN, GameSpy and Gamespot are the key players. There are other websites but the big players often happen to own them!
Another good thing would be to add the "best of show" from E3. Because that's probably as uninfluenced as you're gonna get... Master Thief GarrettTalk 03:47, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Well yeah, actually IGN owns GameSpy... Gamespot has a "greatest games of all times" series, but it's more of a weekly column than a ranking. -- grm_wnr Esc 08:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
      • The main problem with this wiki is that there are literally hundreds of gaming magazines all around the world, as well as hundreds of similar websites, and virtually all of them have done such polls at one point or another. Any attempt to list them would be inconclusive. The wiki as it currently stands only lists less than a dozen individual sources, chosen seemingly at random, and is therefore worthless. That's before taking into account the merits of individual sources - for example, the "notoriously tough" Famitsu magazine is also notorious for having its scores bought...

[edit] list arrangement: by year or by name?

Right now the list is just random, but it needs to be organised. Personally I'd go for a yearly approach as that lets you see the struggle of power between different licenses, but alphabetically would work too.

Plus it avoids people rearranging the list to put their favourite game higher than another...

I'm talking as much about future lists as I am about the current list

Of course ideally there would be yearly subheadings rather than putting (2002) beside each one, so you can clearly see where each year ends. Master Thief GarrettTalk 03:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not a gamer, I came to this page because it got linked to another page I work on. I'd suggest having games considered the best for each platform, especially for older platforms like Atari, C64 etc...Samuel Wantman 00:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the original question suggests we will compile a final list of "THE BEST" games, when doing so would be POV. That's why the list of random games that started the article off was taken out and games were ordered by criteria; and in half the cases there's a way to order games by those criteria. In the other half (different user polls, critic polls, etc) I honestly believe it's possible to order by notability, if order is necessary at all. Nifboy 02:17, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Computer and Video Games magazine poll...

I added the fact that GoldenEye 007 was voted into first place by readers of the magazine in the January 2000 poll, but I remember they also did a similar poll some time in 2001, when a different game won. I don't have that issue, so does anyone know what came first that time? --Nick R 22:06, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. 82.35.65.104 14:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Hype Section

I'd just like to point out that I wasn't making any comments about Molyneux' games. I absolutely loved Fable, and Black and White was quite fun as well (though it had some flaws); I've unfortunately never played Populous. I just think that considering the ridiculous claims he makes (Fable was clearly quoted back in its Project Ego stage as being 'The Best RPG Ever'), he's easily a candidate for this page. Similar with John Romero (The guy who's going to make you his bitch, remember?), though Daikatana in particular was a lot less of a success than anything Molyneux has ever put out. I think the section is worth having in, but I won't revert it, I understand what you're saying, I just want to hear your thoughts on the matter. Kertrats 16:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hype is probably outside the scope of this article. We have Technology hype which is currently lacking any examples from gaming. I think that would be the place to mention Daikatana. --Jmstylr 17:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] An Idea For Another Section

I think another section that would be good for this article would be a list of games that have received some sort of "Greatest Hits"(I believe Nintendo calls it "Player's Choice") status by the maker of its console. While the criteria for a game to reach this status is ambigious(is it by # number units sold? is it an arbitrary decision from the console maker?), I still think the list would include many popular, noteworthy games that haven't been listed here.

--Mitaphane 19:28, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Player's Choice is by units sold (is it still over a million? I'm not sure but I know it used to be...,) Sony's Greatest Hits line was originally over a million sold, then it was reduced to 500,000, and then it was made on a case-by-case basis. (I read the Sony part at ign.com) You 22:07, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pong

so what space invaders and pac man are not relevent anymore? it looks like you people think that vid games started from the first play station.--GregLoutsenko 18:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Super Mario Bros. far preceeds the Playstation! Sonic Mew | talk to me 21:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing games

This list is very complete with regard to recent games, say from the last four-five years, but I notice a number of oldies missing... could someone please verify the popularity of such games as Street Fighter 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog? Also, definitely deserving a mention is Pac-Man, which was one of the earliest games ever and still exists in many incarnations. Radiant_>|< 21:10, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Also Missing: The single most popular strategy game ever. Starvraft - Warcraft was not even mentioned. MMORPG games are also not available. Blizzard is the one controlling firm on the PC Merket, second is EA. Starcraft is the most important Stragtegy game and hast the most features. I just cant believe its not on that site. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.105.100.178 (talk • contribs) .

Also Missing: The best RTS strategy game written so far, Total Annihilation, which probably won lots of awards cause it's so awesome. It still exists and is extensively maintained by its core community.

[edit] POV, despite 'regularily featured in top-10 lists'

I don't think that this article can exist, because while we're saying that these have been considered the greatest by some list, we're also saying that the list was right in determining what constitutes the 'greatest game'. At the very least, this page should be renamed to "list of the results of major computer and video game reviews".

This page seems to be giving a list of games that are, in fact, considered the greatest ever. Some of the games on this list are ridiculous, though some are reasonable. If these lists matched up with the games that I've heard hundreds of completely unaffiliated people praising, then ok, but they don't, so obviously something is amiss.

I disagree very much with the greatest game being the one that sold most, or the one that's considered great by many people. Take, for example, The Sims. Is it a great game? It's a good game, yes, but I think that its popularity arises from the fact that it's geared towards 'average' (that is, non-'nerdy') girls as well as boys. A large target audience does not mean that it's a great game. Another issue is that people tend to give high ratings to the games that they're currently interested in or are playing.

As for personal opinion: if I created a list of the greatest games ever made, this would not be it. The expert polls seem to be well done, to their credit - the three 'included' super mario games are great, and are the ideal examples of what a platformer is about. About three games in the final fantasy series (most notably FF7, which I have not played) and Chrono Trigger always come up as the best classic rpgs. Doom as the shooter, due especially to its significance, but Half-Life (also counter-strike), Quake, and to a much lesser extent Halo would all be there as well. Sid's Civilization. Orcaria of Time, maybe. Starcraft. The old Metroid. Nethack. The two Diablo games, and the Everquest and Ultima Online games. Tetris and Pac-Man. Street fighter. Zork, which I didn't like. I havn't played half of these games, but I've heard lord knows how many people give outstanding reasons for them being great. And I'm probably missing quite a few other games - Katamari Damacy I've heard very good things about, though it's probably too new. Slike2 01:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Films that have been considered the greatest ever predates this article (and was more or less the reason for creating this article). It too exists, despite having gone through processes like VfD. It, too, uses more or less the same criteria: Sales, reviews, and polls. Every game on both lists has a reason for being: NFL2K1 is on the list because it got incredibly good reviews (better than those for Halo and Halo 2, even). Any game that is NOT on the list has been exceeded in all criteria by several other games. Nifboy 04:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
"we're also saying that the list was right in determining what constitutes the 'greatest game'" -- No, we're saying that they think they have a list of greatest games. The opinion is described, not used; no stance is taken as to whether they are right. The criterion for including their opinion is that they are a notable publication. Sales can surely be taken to define "greatness" in some way. There isn't one way to decide what the greatest game is, and that's why we're providing multiple choices. Fredrik | talk 06:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

Should we move this page? The title is quite confusing. — Stevey7788 (talk) 00:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

It's NPOV. If you can think of a better one, feel free to suggest it. Nifboy 01:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Genre Listing

There should be a list of genres with games that are considered to be the greatest falling under those genres. Final Fantasy 7 and Chrono Trigger could possibly make it under the RPG section, while Everquest or maybe even World of Warcraft could make it under the MMORPF section.

How would you determine such a list? Sure, you can cite [2] for MMORPG's, but the same can't quite be done with other genres. Nifboy 23:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Computer role playing games seem to be completely missing. Note the following from Baldur's Gate series article on Wikipedia: "In 1999, Baldur's Gate won the Origins Award for Best Roleplaying Computer Game of 1998, and in 2000, Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast won Best Roleplaying Computer Game of 1999.". There are others, but someone would have to research for verifiable recognition such as awards. -WCFrancis 19:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Everyone and their dog gives out yearly awards, and if we included every game of the year from every year from every notable source, we'd have an immense list. Nifboy 20:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, there is always gamerankings.com to help out. On the Films Considered the Greatest list, they determine their results per genre by critics' polls, popular polls, and sales. Maybe if we were to find the best-selling games per genre and some of the top rated games per genre (via gamerankings.com or another credible source). If only there were a top 250 imdb user-vote kind of a thing for video games. Actually, with a little searching, I've found a top 100 list for the IGN critics and a top 99 list for the IGN readers; unless these are already included in this article? http://microsites.ign.com/kfc/top99games/ for the reader opinions, and http://top100.ign.com/2005/ for critics opinions.

[edit] Pokemon

Pokemon Gold has been one of the most popular Gameboy games and is an excellent role-playing game (RPG). Should we add it? — Stevey7788 (talk) 22:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

If you have some valid, verifiable, and notable reason to include it, please do so. Nifboy 02:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
As far as reviews go, ALL the core Pokemon games have done quite well. As for sales I seem to recall Red/Blue/Green sold (far?) more than Gold/Silver/Crystal(?) but how you would find collated figures to show that status is another matter. Right now this page is drawn exclusively from western opinions of games; it would be interesting to see Japanese/Korean/etc. opinions, but I don't know if there's a Japanese equivalent of GameRankings (or similar) to draw from. GarrettTalk 01:19, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I AM kinda curious why we don't list the four/five games to get perfect scores from Famitsu myself... Them being REALLY strict yewt widely-respected by just about ALL the gaming magazines/websites across the globe, it'd probably make a good addition to the list. --Shadow Hog 02:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Done. Kertrats 03:00, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, of course *slaps forehead* yes that's definitely the Japanese source to go with. And looks like they're even stricter than I remembered. :) GarrettTalk 11:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Pokemon should be put on the list. No Pokemon game has ever received Gamespot Editor's Choice, and that's my reason.

Laughable. Nor has the origional LOZ or SMB! Remove them! What about Myst(which is missing from the page anyway! Until The Sims, it was the single best-selling game ever.)?

[edit] Best games by company/series

How's that sound? Here's an example... (note: Games taken from GameRankings with five votes minimum)

[edit] Nintendo

  1. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
  2. Super Mario World
  3. Metroid Prime
  4. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
  5. Super Mario 64
  6. Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy Kong's Quest
  7. Super Metroid
  8. The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages
  9. GoldenEye 007
  10. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker

[edit] Mario

(not counting ports)

  1. Super Mario World
  2. Super Mario 64
  3. Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy Kong's Quest
  4. Super Mario Kart
  5. Donkey Kong Country
  6. Mario Kart Super Circuit
  7. Wario Land 3
  8. Super Mario Sunshine
  9. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
  10. Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
  11. Mario Golf
  12. Mario Tennis (GBC)
  13. WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$
  14. Diddy Kong Racing
  15. Paper Mario
  16. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
  17. Wario Land II
  18. Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
  19. Mario Tennis (N64)
  20. WarioWare: Twisted!

What do you think? - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:27, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

I don't like it. Basically, it's Square/Nintendo biased, since those are the major companies with major franchises and enough games to fill out a small list and still have some left over. Also, the first three Super Mario Bros. games are missing from your list, which is a disgrace. Nifboy 03:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
This entire article is from GameRankings, meaning SMB3 wouldn't even BE on this article, because they don't do NES games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:21, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edge and Next Gen lists

I've been trying to compile a collection of "top 10" lists. You can see I added the link to the bottom of this page. I was wondering, could whoever added the information about Edge and Next Gen kindly tell me what the rest of their respective top ten lists were, so I can add em?

Thanks, user:J.J.

The British Edge magazine didn't do a top 100 poll in 2004. (However, I think there's also an Australian edition edition of the magazine published, with different content, which may well have done.) The last time the UK Edge did one was in 2003, when for their 10th anniversary issue they listed their top 10 games in 10 genres, but in no order. There was a list a few of years before that as well, but I don't have that issue.
However, the Edge staff are apparently working on some sort of special issue on the subject, which should be good: [3]
Regarding the user polls by Computer and Video Games magazine: there were two of them; one in the January 2000 issue; one sometime in 2001 (which you have partially listed on your website. I don't have that issue, but I read it, and what you've got sounds about right). GoldenEye definitely came first in the Jan 2000 one. As for the rest of the top 10, I don't have the issue to hand right now so I can't confirm this (I'll email you when I can), but I think they were:
  1. GoldenEye 007
  2. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
  3. Final Fantasy VII
  4. Metal Gear Solid
Others that I think made it somewhere into the top 10:
One interesting thing to note about the inclusion of Sonic the Hedgehog was that votes for some game series - such as Bomberman and Street Fighter - seemed lumped together as one, judging by the platforms listed. That seemed to happen with Sonic. But IIRC, in the 2001 poll, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic and Knuckles made it into the top 100 separately.
--Nick R 15:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Video Games versus Computer Games

Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to distinguish between video games (which are played on platforms) and computer games (played on a personal computer). The two both have a very different feel to them, and as such, I really think it's like comparing apples and oranges. While there are a few cross-over games that are played on both a platform system or PC, I believe most people would agree with me that games that make it onto PC first and are later released onto platform generally are not as good on platform, and similarly, the opposite is true about games that were orignally for platform and are released for PC.

For example, it is unlikely that any of the very best strategy genre games would show up on a listing of the best video games, because strategy games do not play as well as they do on PC, largely due to availability of the mouse as a peripheral. Similarly, "beat-em-ups" won't do as well on a PC list, since games like Mortal Combat or Soul Caliber are best played on a platform.

My problem with lumping the two together is that, unfortunately, and to the detriment of many fine computer games, video games are simply better known and more widely played. I was appalled to find that not a single Blizzard game was mentioned on this page. StarCraft is simply the best game of all time, period. If you disagree, that's fine, but you are wrong. Naturally, this is my personal bias, but I certainly think its true that a number of computer games have been overlooked because they have to compete with video games, which don't even really compare. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.151.163.186 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 28 October 2005 (UCT).

Feel free to add them yourself, just remember to cite sources. Nifboy 05:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
The two both have a very different feel to them, and as such, I really think it's like comparing apples and oranges.
I completely disagree. Although there are large differences with some genres (such as RTS games or beat 'em ups, as you mentioned; and flight sims are also more common on the PC) I don't think there are many differences at all. Few people care which format they play a game on, as long as it's good. It's all gaming.
I don't think console games are causing people to overlook PC titles. If you click on the links to the various expert and user polls, you'll find that quite a few PC games do make it into the lists; they just rarely seem to reach the number one spot, which is what are mainly listed on this page (though Half-Life did win the GameSpy 2004 one, and Diablo II did beat Zelda OOT!). The "expert polls" section already includes one poll by PC Gamer, but if you do want to add more by dedicated PC magazines and sites, feel free to do so. But that would open the doors for other polls by single-format magazines: I know that the official UK Dreamcast magazine ran two polls (an "expert" one, which Virtua Tennis won, and a reader one, which Shenmue won). And then we'd get the polls by the various PlayStation and Nintendo mags, and we'd have to add a whole new "best game by format" section...
Finally, I was appalled to find that not a single Sonic Team game was mentioned on this page. And GoldenEye is simply the best game of all time, period. If you disagree, that's fine, but you are wrong.
See, I can do it too! :) --Nick R 12:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Technically, the Sonic Team/Goldeneye pair isn't related, where Blizzard/Starcraft is, so you didn't quite do it correctly. However, the article as it is, I think, is just fine; we aren't being biased towards consoles, we even have a PC-only magazine's answer on the page. I'd say it stays as is. Kertrats | Talk 14:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a real console game bent to the "greatest ever" list. MobyGames which is decidedly more computer game friendly All time best list is domainated by PC games. It all depends on who you ask I guess. --Flipkin 03:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Important: Vote for Deletion underway

A similar article to this one, List of songs that have been considered among the worst ever, is currently in the middle of a VfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs that have been considered among the worst ever. If it is deleted, this article may be deleted shortly as well, since I don't see any significant difference in topic between the two articles; they're just opposite sides of the same coin, and dealing with slightly different topics, but the essential type of article is completely identical. As such, some editors and other frequenters of this page may be interested in participating in the ongoing discussion there, and in casting your votes if you have an opinion on the matter. The vote will also likely affect List of films that have been considered the worst ever and Films that have been considered the greatest ever. -Silence 21:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe that the list of songs vote will ever affect this article. Judging music is very ambiguous and subjective, films not so much but still subjective to some taste. Video games, on the other hand, are pretty straightforward; the criteria of immersive, innovative gameplay; plenty of secrets, collection, and other replay value; and so on are easy to judge. Okay, maybe deciding on the "absolute greatest" is subjective, but among the greatest is easy to figure out, as good video games have a substantial influence on later games. The Legend of Miyamoto 00:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Saying games are straight forward is like saying rocket science is a piece of cake. It all depends on how smart you are. Lets take first person shooters for a second: morons go for the whole pointless crap with a lame pointless plot like Halo, then your average guys play something like Half-life and Fable with somewhat of an obscure plot and several puzzles, then your real geniuses play the Dues ex's and Vampires: The Mascaraed's of the world with deep twisting plots and complex puzzles.Toxic Ninja 02:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

i disagree. Games are very subjective. No matter how many tokens and coins i can collect in Mario Bross i still hate it! pacman has no secrets and at the moment has a replay value of a few minutes for me but still is one of the greatest games due to innovation. Tetris too. There is no best games ever list, unless you talk about innovation (ie pong, tetris, wolfestein 3d, pacman, arkanoid) ie games that started a new gametype never seen before. Everything else does not matter (new games have better graphics, more secrets, more moves, more options, more boredom heheeh). Also Songs are very subjective but u can still find objective measures: chords used, harmony, start of new genre etc. Best if this Wikipage is used for Games that Made an Impact either in the gaming community (Pong first since it is the forst computer game!) or social (like Duke nukem and GTA making kids go kill people :P ) and other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.36.77.202 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Bolo

Bolo might be the most classic Mac game ever, and one of the first games to balance network play, arcade-style intensity, and long-term strategy. Sadly, it's lost a fan base due to its age, but there still exists a loyal community of Bolo players out there. I wish it were more recognized for what it is. - Meese 10:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place where anything gains recognition; it is a repository of things that have already been recognized. Nifboy 21:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EGM Platniums

Should someone mention the games that recieved Platnium rewards from EGM, which is their perfect rating. Fableheroesguild 01:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's the point?

This whole thing is just one big POV. In fact, it's nothing but pure POV. Discussing the individual games and the favorable reviews they receive is one thing, but providing article that amounts to a collage of games that have been considered "great" isn't the the purpose of Wikipedia.

I'm starting the petition here whether to disband the article as well put forth the proposal to the main wiki admin. Shadowrun 16:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

So, should it be, or shouldn't be disbanded? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shadowrun (talk • contribs) .

I do not believe. As already stated, there are articles of similar fashion that have been created before this one. The article shows several points of view. If it was completely based in one source, it would be considered POV, but since it uses several, I do not believe it is biased as is. -- ReyBrujo 16:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be removed. I mean, honestly, the games listed are ridiculous. They seem to have chosen the most mainstream, dumbed down idiot games you can image, thus console games are overrepresented. Popularity does not equal quality. It would be like rating pop music over classical, simply because it's more popular and reaches a wider audience. Games that far exceed the games listed, such as Ufo: Enemy Unknown, Fallout 2, Ultima 7, Planescape and Starcraft go unlisted, simply because they're made for PC. Then you have second rate games such as FF7 and Super Mario 64 up there, which are basically popular because they're simple, dumbed down games for kids and teens.

Ironically, that last comment reeks of POV. If you can give me references to game sites that gave critical acclaim to those games, feel free to put them on the list. And those "second rate" games had a huge influence on the gaming industry, meaning those PC games wouldn't exist without them. And I put a sort-of explanation of why this article should not be removed in the "Important: Vote for Deletion underway" section. The Legend of Miyamoto 00:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree this article should be deleted. There is not quantifiable, empirical method to argue any of this, it is a "religious" debate . You 'could' have an article PURELY about best selling computer games of all time, but this article is NOT it. Save this article until games have a 'academy award', (which they should and probably will have sooner or later), a 'magazine poll' is not a source of encyclopaedic information. Vespine 03:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This list is just a way for console fanboys to prove which console is better then the next or the computer. I agree this should be removed.Toxic Ninja 02:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that is a deletion criteria. --69.156.206.147 02:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exact count of RPGs please

Could someone please give an exact count of the number of RPGs that made this list? I counted 46, but there were some games I couldn't find out what were. Oh, and PLEASE don't count Zelda as an RPG, I hate it when people do that...--SeizureDog 00:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because it doesn't use the ATB system doesn't make it some stupid action game, aslong as you play the role of whatever it is, in this situation Link, it's an rpg, end of story.Toxic Ninja 02:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordering lists by major system

Such as Nintendo, Playstation, Xbox, and PC - including all systems in each (xbox and xbox 360, all the nintendo systems etc). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.198.34.66 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Japanese Media

What is the point of the 'excuse' section for the japanese media? Of course they like rpgs more, and of course that's a bias... that's the whole point of including another country's point of view, right? If they liked the exact same stuff as UK or USA what would be the point of adding it in? I'm taking this out, but I'll leave it here in case someone disagrees Oreo man 20:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

However, it must be noted that gaming culture Japan is leaned toward Fantasy RPGs & Fantasy Military/Tactical simulations and together they contributed as the largest segment in Japan's video game industry. Add to the fact that DQ and FF series are held in extremely high esteem in Japan, may be the poll is not bias, but rather a representation of cultural difference and gaming preference in Far East (take note, Microsoft). In fact, FPS like Doom, Half Life and Halo that recieve rave reviews in the West are struggling to get themselves in the top 50 games in most Far East countries' polls.
Hmm... I don't like the explanation about the biased sample for Japanese media. Japanese gamers are known for liking role playing games, so the results fit the notion. In example, Final Fantasy XII sold 1,764,266 copies in the first week of sales, while FFX sold 1.8 million [4]. Dragon Quest V sold 1m copies in the first week, [5] while Dragon Quest VIII sold 2,167,000 [6] Any sample you are going to to pick from Japan will end with RPGs topping the charts, I would be surprised if that is not true. Besides, I never hear "US and UK are biased towards EA" to explain their sales in those countries, in example. -- ReyBrujo 11:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not particularly fond of it either. I mean, the GameFAQs poll is biased, the GameSpy poll is biased, the Nintendo Power poll is blatantly biased, and so forth. To suggest that only Famitsu's readers are not representative of the population as a whole is stupid. I'm taking the thing back out. Nifboy 18:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grim Fandango

You forgot Grim Fandango!--Anony. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.184.67.160 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Removing IMDb comment

Ahem, IMDb is NOT a reliable source for video game reviewing. They are mainly based on movies, so there is likely to be plenty of bias factors in video game reviewing. Removing. The Legend of Miyamoto 18:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the lists listed are mainly Nintendo, and do not include games that are from other consoles —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richard n (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Game length

hasnt any of these web sites ever had a poll to see which games are the longest. i would say legend of zelda: ocarina of time, but that might be because ive had the game for years and havent been able to complete. --82.47.25.159 12:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

That's really not a topic for this page, but you can check the sites yourself if you want to. -Unknownwarrior33 22:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Best Selling section necessary?

In my opinion, the "best-selling" section should be deleted due to its irrelevance to the article as a whole. I argue that popularity cannot be a factor on the "greatness" of something. However, seeing as the two are closely related, a link to list of best selling computer and video games should remain under the "see also" section or something. What do you think? --Taitington 15:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I can hardly think of a more neutral means of judging a game's "greatness" than commercial performance. How good a game is is a matter of opinion. How well it sells is a matter of hard fact. We do this on the corresponding page for films, incidentally. -- SamSim 11:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deus Ex

No one considered Deus Ex the greatest game ever? It's a great pity. - Jack's Revenge 18:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

If you find someone who has, let us know! Just keep in mind that we do want good sources. Nifboy 02:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
On my box of deus ex i can read "game of the year". Enough for you? (Who gives you the right to judge over all of us anyway?) -- 212.100.54.31 04:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Not a great stretch for Dues Ex to be included, is frequently regarded as the best of it's genre. Personally I'd love to see Max Payne included, there is no question about it that it is at least a great game. Mathmo 14:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hard to say WHAT genre Dues Ex is in. Its part: Action, Puzzle, FPS, RPG, etc. All in all, the perfect game. As for the sources I saw it mentioned it PCGamer a few times. It got their game of the year in 2000, and its 27 on the list of top 50 games EVER list they put outin april '05.Toxic Ninja 02:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
One of the greates things of deus ex (and system shock 2) was exactly that it was so much cross-genre.
Read the wikipedia article on Deus Ex under "Awards and Greatest games lists" if you want proof of why it should be included.DaveTheJackal 12:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EGM Platniums

Does anyone know all the games that Electronic Gaming Monthly has given thier highest award (all 10s) so we can add them to the list? guitarhero777777 03:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

OOPS!!!! I made a mistake of repeating a post I made months ago that no one responded to. I'm sorry. guitarhero777777 03:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starcraft

Neither Starcraft nor any other Blizzard games are mentioned here. This is a serious flaw and should be corrected. Not my opinion either. And I don't have to cite my sources. Ask the guy sitting next to you what his favorite PC games are.

This page is seriously biased towards consoles in that majority of the citations are from console publications. --03:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
We've been over this a million times. Just saying there's a bias is useless; you need to do research and you do need to cite sources. Nifboy 15:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
He has got a point there, just simply count up the number of console games and console sources which have been used. By far the majority. The fact there isn't a single Blizzard game there is madness! After all Starcraft is often called Korea's "national game". Mathmo 14:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
And the fact World of Warcraft has over 8 million paying subscribers at this time.
The problem is there needs to be a reptubale source to have called any of these games the best of all time. We cannot go angainst WP:V to add what we want beacuse that is a conerstone of Wikipedia a doing so would be clearly against Wikipedia rules. However, If you can find sources of that nature fell free to add it. --69.156.206.147 02:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Total Annihilation

This is the best RTS game ever, and I know it won lots of awards and stuff. Why isn't it on here?--72.75.113.204 20:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Simply because nobody's put it on here yet. If you can find some sources, by all means list it. -Unknownwarrior33 22:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible way to end POV disputes

I'm not going to get into the debate about whether this page should exist; the fact is that it does, and this is the kind of list that's hard to define because there are no totally solid guidelines/criteria. As such, I suggest making some. When I say "totally solid guidelines/criteria" I mean an unbendable formula to determine whether a game belongs here, no debate. These are just a couple preliminary ideas; some of them might not be good, and there are countless more possibilities:

  • Score of at least (whatever we agree on) on Metacritic/Game Rankings (only for PC and applicable consoles)
  • At least (whatever) units sold
  • In top (3? 5? 10? 25?) in at least (1? 2? 3? More?) publications/websites' lists
  • At least (you get the idea) awards (I don't know what awards we'd include)

Obviously finding this info would be a big undertaking, but I think it's the most effective way to avoid POV disputes. We could put the guidelines at the beginning of the article and say that people can add any game as long as they provide evidence of those things. What do you guys think? -Unknownwarrior33 22:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ehem, a few questions? Why does "Metacritic/Game Rankings/toplist x/y/z" matter? I don't know of a game rater that you can't buy, so please explain...
The units sold are pretty irrelevant. We're ranking the greatest. And greatest is measured in fun. Not in $$$. This is especially true because some of the best games ever made never sold much copies. (Some could even be free.)
The most important point possibly is: "unbiased articles are physically *and* psychologically impossible to exist". We have al those problems with p.o.v., because poeple rate according to different criteria. so the only thing that makes sense is to make a big table of all criteria that all poeple can agree to, and then add all games wthi all ratins in thos criteria to it. the ratings can be something like "graphics quailty compared to...", "graphics quailty in technical features used" and (not "or") "subjective graphics quailty rating of N testers" for graphics, then the same for story, sound, gameplay, experience, even bugs&support.
Next you *must* allow the users to sert that table according to their own criteria and weights. (or else the whole table is only usful for the creator of the fixed-order.)
P.S.: If i had some cash (like being able to pay the bills for a month) i'd love to make such a tool und make it opensource. but since i won't even be abld to pay the bills while still working.... this will only happen if you sent me the cash. :( -- 212.100.54.31 04:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

A few points: Metacritic, Game Rankings and the like aren't themselves a buyable "game rater", they average out the rankings for games from all available sources. They're as accurate a consensus as you'll get for something as subjective as videogame ratings. I'm surprised this article isn't more focused around the Metacritic/Game Rankings/etc. numbers. Further, sales data (better yet demonstrably sustained sales numbers over x amount of years perhaps) would be to a large degree a useful inclusion in the article. Not as a measure of greatness which is too subjective an issue, but to reflect real popularity amongst real people with real numbers (where applicable). Finally, Wikipedia isn't the place to rate games. And I can't stress it enough: Metacritic and Game Rankings are probably the most useful displays of actual numbers this article could include, AND they're a good approximation of the exact thing you seem to describe above.

[edit] Archived Reference

Hey there. The first reference on this page pointed to a page on the Guiness World Records site that hasn't been up since 2003, so I replaced it with a version from the Internet Archive's "Wayback Machine". Is there an appropriate way to note the nature of the link within the article? -Unknownwarrior33 23:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second place is not enough / List by game, not by source

I would argue that the top ten, top three or top two games on any Top X list are unworthy for listing. This is "greatest ever", not "almost greatest ever". I'd also suggest that the listings should be sorted by game, not by source, as this is supposed to be a list of games, and it certainly doesn't read like one as it is currently. -- SamSim 18:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The 2nd, 3rd, etc... game on a list of the "greatest ever" list must be included, because editors of these lists vary widely due to their bias, experience, etc... By listing only the first one on the list you are more likely than not going to be missing out the truly greatest ever game. Mathmo 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halo 2.

If I am not mistaken, Halo 2 held the most amount of games sold, with $175 Million sold on the first day.

Many games have sold more copies than Halo 2. See List of best-selling computer and video games. Halo 2 was the best selling game for the XBox at just under 8 million (including bundled games) -- compare that with Grand Theft Auto: Vice City at nearly 14 million. -Quasipalm 19:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon Quest III

This game has been recieved as one of the greatest games ever by several different reviewers.

In addition, it also recieved a 10.0/10.0 from IGN (the GBC remake).

[edit] About Sonic...

I'm pretty sure Sonic The Hedgehog isn't the greatest selling game of all time. Should that box be deleted? (DerMuffinFuhrer 21:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Game ranking standards?

In High scores in multiple reviews,

Note: These rankings, compiled from online sources, do not take into account games that were published before Internet reviewing became a standard in the game industry. This means older games like Super Mario Bros and The Legend of Zelda are not on these lists.

How did internet reviewing become a standard? Different magazines, internet sites, all rate differently, otherwise, there would be no point in aggregating their reviews. All of them would be the same if there was some standard to abide by. 70.111.218.254 18:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wrong

final fantasy 6 is the best game ever —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.132.60.205 (talk • contribs) .

  • While incorrect (or at least biased), he's somewhat on to something. If you check the best-selling game article, Pokemon Red, Blue, and Green are said to be the best-selling RPG of all time. Keep in mind, that these are all essentially the same game (Blue and Green *are* the same game), with the only difference being available Pokemon. It sold about 30 million copies, so I'm going to go ahead and say it's safe to change it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.196.78.63 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] System Shock (2)?

Strange. I can't believe that System Shock 1/2 and other games from looking glasses are missing from the list. They were "game of the year" back then, and when you played them you know why. I still can recommend system shock 1 and 2 today (maybe bioshock next year), because it still gives you the creeps and a feeling like in the film "event horizon". Even with the pretty aged graphics of ss1.

[edit] Re-name?

The name of this article should be renamed to something shorter, since it is written out like a sentence, and a name such as "Highly Rated Video Games" would be better suited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nanajoth (talk • contribs) 14:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Rankings List

It was to soon to add Twilight Princess to the top lists on Gamerankings and Gamestats as of course its dropped right out of the top 10... plus Gamerankings has changed dramatically in other games! Its been editted.

[edit] Dropped Total Annihilation

This is not about best in genre, it's best overall. If we went with best in genre, there are a nigh infinite number of articles in respected publications about the best all-time in FPS, Survival Horror, Sports, etc. etc. - Darkhawk

[edit] Best Selling list

  • What about DOOM? That must have sold tons of copies.
  • Why is Super Mario Bros. listed? SMB3 is the best selling single game of all time. Mr.bonus 18:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
    • No it's not. Read the lead of the article.--SeizureDog 06:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ordering, again

I've arranged the Editors polls section in to alphabetical order by publication for the sake of some kind of ordering. However, I think it might be more instructive to order by platform (PC / Console / 8-bit home computers, etc) or by year. The latter might be better as these polls tend to be of the 'of all time' format. Opinions please? Marasmusine 09:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've now ordered by format and publication, as I think it's important to note what range of games each 'best' game is being drawn from. For clarity, perhaps we should place the reader polls in the same list (still noting of course that they are reader polls). Marasmusine 08:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need a system specific sub-section

Some games are only considered the best on their respective systems. PC games are especially prone to this it seems. Obviously, magazines like PC Gamer didn't consider Zelda in their "best game ever" lists.--SeizureDog 06:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm psyching myself up to attempt a by-year / by-platform listing after my above tidyup. Marasmusine 07:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Done, see above. Marasmusine 08:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GameSpot?

Since when is GameSpot a website that "averages scores awarded by numerous websites and magazines"? I suggest to remove their top 10 list again.(A month ago it wasn't here to begin with...) Their ratings are already shown under "Notable review scores" and sites like GameRankings&Co include their scores anyway. Cyankalli 17:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chrono Trigger.

Anyone who has played this knows..hands down..Best game ever made..Gameplay..Story..Music.Graphics.All untouchable by any other game..At least for the SNES. Only other game that comes close is Final Fantasy 7. This game WILL Change Your Life as a child...So influential.

[edit] "Game of the Year"s

An anonymous user recently made a good point in his edit, which I'd like to note here for reference: A "game of the year" is explicitly not the "greatest game ever" Marasmusine 18:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Best Selling

I have take down these two items until citations can be found for them:

  • Pokémon Red, Blue and Yellow - These three games have sold approximately 30 million copies, making them the best-selling RPG. While they may hold different titles, the games differ only in the fact that the Pokémon available in Red differs only very slightly from those in Blue and Yellow. The American versions (Red and Blue) are based on the Japanese version of Pokémon Blue, which features better graphics and different dungeon layouts and was released after Red and Yellow, but with the wild Pokémon selection of the original two. [citation needed]
  • "Myst", which until the Sims held the title of the best selling computer game of all time.

Marasmusine 11:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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