Talk:Victoria Cross

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Contents

[edit] Material

Removed:

The medal is made from gunmetal, the metal being taken from Russian guns captured during the Crimean War.

because it contradicts the 1st para about chinese cannons. Could someone confirm which it is? -- Tarquin

The first para reads to me like the guns in question were made in China, but were being used by the Russians at the time they were captured. The Chinese bit is a new one on me (though it may be correct), but it's certainly true the guns were Russian and captured at Sebastopol during the Crimean war. --Camembert

Arg. it's late at night here, I need to read more carefully. The bit I removed doesn't contradict, but the bit in the first paragraph has more information. Still, it was a Good Thing to remove duplication *yawn* -- Tarquin

Uh... Someone may want to actually look at the sites referenced at the bottom of this article, specifically the first paragraph of [1] :). -- nknight 16:42 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

(Not that it matters much, but those links weren't there when this discussion happened some months ago. --Camembert)

Just out of curiousity, how big were the cannons? I mean, they've gotten more than a thousand crosses out of them. What's going to happen when they run out of the bronze?

Is it correct to say that the crosses are in the shape of a "Maltese Cross" doesn't that have to have 8 points?

Is the bronze specifically from the cascabels? Rich Farmbrough 09:53, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)










[edit] MARCH 31 2005

Someone told me to post here? WHtas the prob?

[edit] Why statement was removed

I removed "the Victoria Cross is one of the only awards that can never be revoked" because it is erroneous (and was ungrammatical as well). See here and here for starters. Corbett's VC was revoked and his name was erased from the Victoria Cross Register by Royal Warrant and his VC pension was terminated.Moriori 00:07, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC).

The rules were later changed, and VCs restored.Richard75 23:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Valour in face of the enemy?

Since the VC is awarded for acts of valour "in the face of the enemy", it is thought by some that the changing nature of warfare will result in few VCs being awarded.

Hmm. I'd always thought this, too - but there's a note on the entry for Campbell Mellis Douglas (a Canadian surgeon, award made way back in 1867), that:

VC not awarded for bravery in action against the enemy, but for bravery at sea in saving life in storm off Andaman Islands.

I'm curious if anyone has information to reconcile these; it looks like the situation can be interpreted as "in the face of the enemy" if you squint a bit, but I was wondering if there was a more sensible explanation.

I think the qualification may have changed over time. It's currently "in the face of the enemy" - in Iraq Pte Johnson Beharry got a VC, while Tpr Christopher Finney only got a George Cross for equally valorous action because his action was "in the face of American friendly fire". -- Arwel 22:56, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's a difference? Markb 14:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images from Victoria Cross Reference Site

Images throughout the VC recipients pages use images "with permission" from the Victoria Cross Reference site, and need their license information made more explicit. Is it non-commercial only? Is it for Wikipedia only? etc. See Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags.

119 06:41, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] casting??

All VCs are cast from the bronze of two Chinese cannon that were reputedly...

I remember seeing a BBC program about the VC where the woman who makes the crosses said that they don't re-cast it and so working with the metal is very hard. From the statement in the article it seems to me to suggest that the bronze is melted and then cast as a cross, which is not true. I haven't changed the article, because I am not sure of what to write, I hope a better informed member of wikipedia will look into it. --145.94.41.95 20:24, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, it's actually from Russian cannons, but I'll check my sources and post them here. The metal itself is actually recast, and the remaining ingot has enough material for about eighty more VCs. --Deathphoenix 20:32, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The lady who makes the crosses herself said that the metal is not recast, it was on the BBC about a year ago...--145.94.41.95 22:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is the website of the people who actually make the crosses, Hancock's of London [2]. They state quite clearly that the VCs are cast using sand filled moulds, unlike most other medals which are die cast (i.e. stamped or struck). It would have been the phrase "die cast" that the woman would have been referring to. Also to clarify, the cannons were manufactured in China (this is what Hancock's say so and surely they must be a reliable source) and presumably had the ornamentation typical of Chinese cannons (dragons etc..). Were they captured from the Russians at Sebastapol? Or is this a different legend? I don't know.Jooler 17:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are various sites that say (or quote from a source that says) - "For a short period during the 1914-18 war, some gun-metal from Chinese guns captured during the Boxer Rebellion was used." - but Hancock's definitely say that - "In fact, the metal is of Chinese origin and not Russian as if often stated." - I am guessing or theorizing the following -
  1. The Russians bought or captured some guns from the Chinese
  2. These guns were used by the Russians at Sevastapol, where they were captured by the British
  3. These guns were initially used to make the medals
  4. During the First World War they were churning out so many medals that they started using some metal from guns captured by the British from the Chinese during the Boxer Rebellion because they would have been of the same kind of metal as the original guns.
  5. After WWI they went back to using the guns captured from the Russians.
    • Jooler 17:45, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
BTW, "check my sources" isn't something extraordinary, it's just checking out web sites. Anyway, here's some information from the Imperial War Museum website [3]
What is the VC made of?
All VCs are made from bronze. The metal comes from melted down breeches of guns captured from the Russians at Sebastopol in the Crimea. The rough cast Crosses are then individually hand finished; each is therefore unique. The remaining ingot of bronze, believed to be sufficient for a further 80 Crosses, is held by the Ministry of Defence.
--Deathphoenix 23:44, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Do you agree then that the five points I laid out are probably correct? Jooler 09:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the first three points you laid out are probably correct, but I admit that I didn't know about 4 & 5. I didn't know they switched metals during WWI. --Deathphoenix 14:15, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What will happen once they run out of the cannon? What would the medals be made of then? Kaiser Matias 02:22 June 2 2005 (UTC)
With only twelve VCs having been awarded since the end of World War II they've still got a few years yet to sort this out (roughly 400 if awards are made at the same rate as they have been for the last 60 years). Lisiate 01:27, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Previous VC recipient

The entry concerning the VC recipient previous to Pvt. Beharry may not be accurate. I had read of a VC being awarded to an SAS RSM for service in Afghanistan in 2002.

http://static.highbeam.com/s/scotlandonsundayedinburghscotland/march242002/sassoldierwinsvcforheroisminafghanistan/

As the article above notes, it is illegal under British law to disclose the name of a member of the SAS. It has occurred to me that the ommission of the above citation may be due to discretion rather than lack of knowledge. balloo 23:05, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Whilst it is sort-of possible that the MoD might award a decoration to someone who they don't name, the MoD's press release [4] explicitly states this is the first since the Falklands, and gives the number awarded since WWII - all of those can be attatched to names. For this story to be true they'd have to have pretended it wasn't awarded rather than just "to an undisclosed soldier". I have my doubts about them ever doing even that, but regardles...
My reading is that there was some talk of awarding the medal to this guy, but that it was never actually awarded - note the future tense in the article you quote. Shimgray 23:26, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm an American, living in Canada, but I've served overseas with British Army detachments. Their way of doing things has its own internal logic. If an SAS RSM were to be awarded a decoration would the event ever be made publicly known? balloo 00:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I can't say I'm speaking from a great position of knowledge here, but I honestly don't think they'd keep it secret. Or, more accurately - I don't think they'd award a VC they wouldn't later identify. It just doesn't seem to gel with the way they work, the way these are reported when they do get awarded. (That, and the number of times I've seen memoirs with comments about "had this been public at the time...")
As I understand it - although checking the law on the matter could prove surprising, these things are pretty baroque - they could choose to award any medal and merely not tell anyone; it wouldn't surprise me if this has been done, either not publicising the award or just not giving a reason. However, the latter would be both embarrassing for the MoD and look fairly silly in the case of something as high profile as the VC - as well as not being very effective, since it's not like there's very many other groups it might have been awarded to. The occasionally - ah - legally dubious practices used by the SAS (there's been some highly contentious operations over the years, some in Ulster) means, as well, that not identifying what it was being awarded for could well backfire.
Also note that things like "not identifying members of the SAS" are a bit odd; there's a good argument it's mainly done to preserve a mystique - this is the government that pretended for fifty years it didn't have an intelligence service... But do recall that every member of the SAS has entered through secondment, is a soldier of several years experience, and (I believe) often returns to the regular army after their service. As such, you could easily name them - "Sergeant John Smith, Grenadier Guards, was awarded the VC for actions in Afghanistan (...)" - without identifying them as SAS, just being a bit vague over which unit they were with at the time. Certainly the MoD hasn't been averse to publicising details of SAS operations when it chooses - the Sierra Leone rescue was all over the papers in great detail the next day, if memory serves.
I hope that made sense, I think I rambled a little - anyway, no matter how plausible it is, I'd be loathe to change the article on the basis of one comment in a newspaper, about an event that hadn't happened at the time of writing... Shimgray 02:45, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(Oh - Interestingly, there is an American case, of the Medal of Honor having been kept secret - Cpl. Hiroshi Miyamura was awarded it for an action in Korea that led him to be taken prisoner; they didn't announce it for two years - until he was released - because of fears of Chinese retaliation against him. Not the same concept, but an interesting footnote nonetheless.)
Having read over the Scotland on Sunday article again, it seems to be phrased as though they intended to announce the VC, but not name the recipient. This certainly didn't happen... I think we can safely disregard it.
Aha! From the Express, in 2003:
Defence chiefs want to speed the process after a row blew up following the war in Afghanistan over whether two members of the SAS should have been given VCs for their exploits during the raid on Osama Bin Laden's mountain bolthole of Tora Bora. The soldiers eventually won the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, the next combat medal down from the VC.
and the Telegraph mentions them:
...two SAS soldiers who took part in an attack on the al-Qa'eda cave complex also in Afghanistan in November 2001. One led the main attack on the heavily defended caves near Kandahar while the other directed aerial fire at the caves, putting his life at extreme risk by waiting until the last possible moment to bring down fire.
Going further back to March 2002, quite a few papers reported it - the Scotsman gives some details:
Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, is believed to have wanted the man's name to be published to create a "feel good" factor around the British presence in Afghanistan. However, he reluctantly agreed the man's identity and the details of his gallantry would not appear in the London Gazette when the honour is officially announced. (...) The award of the VC is due to be confirmed at next month's meeting of the Central Gallantry Awards Committee
This is fairly representative of the reporting at the time; presumably sometime in April it got changed to the CGC. Hope that clears it up... Shimgray 03:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Further... from an article on the actual awarding:
None of the members of the SAS, SBS, or the RAF's 7 and 47 Sqns is named in today's announcement, which gives details of all awards to ordinary servicemen and women before ending with an anonymous list of "other honours awarded" to cover the special forces. (Telegraph, October 2002)
So it seems they do identify the decorations given, but don't give names for them. That clears that question up, at least. Shimgray 03:15, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 85 Left?

There has been some reverting back and forth between B1link82 and various other people in this article regarding the statement "There is only enough of the metal left to create 85 more medals." This has been reverted as vandalism several times, but I suspect that it's a good faith edit regardless of if its right or not. B1link82 says that it's from the BBC website, and I've found it at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A665192. Since this is H2G2, this is also written by the public like Wikipedia and should not be used as a primary source. Does anyone else know anything about this? - RedWordSmith 23:18, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I lost you after the link you gave.

H2G2?

[above is B1link82]

H2G2. - RedWordSmith 23:27, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
h2g2 is a publicly-written "guide to everything" (similar in concept to Wikipedia) hosted by the BBC; they don't exert much editorial control over it. As such, it's not an automatically reliable source - it ought to be treated in much the same way as Wikipedia as far as evidence goes, in that it's reasonably reliable but a lot of minor details probably won't have been checked by anyone.
However, the ~85 figure is cited by [5], actually part of the BBC and presumably with their editorial oversight, so... Shimgray 23:29, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

ok well i guess its real, i saw it on BBC News site as well. - b1link82

The Western Front Association VC facts & figures article [6] has the 85 figure. Not sure when the article was written but I consider the WFA are pretty reliable source. As they point out, the medals are cast from the terminal bosses of two cannon so if they run out, they can always use the barrels themselves. Geoff/Gsl 23:42, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The following is an excerpt from an earlier post I made to this talk page:
Here's some information from the Imperial War Museum website [7]
What is the VC made of?
All VCs are made from bronze. The metal comes from melted down breeches of guns captured from the Russians at Sebastopol in the Crimea. The rough cast Crosses are then individually hand finished; each is therefore unique. The remaining ingot of bronze, believed to be sufficient for a further 80 Crosses, is held by the Ministry of Defence.
--Deathphoenix 02:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)


IT IS 85 LEFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --B1link82 20:50, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Which is the same approximate amount. I'm not about to get into an argument over whether it is 80 or 85 when the source states it as an approximation (hence the word believed). The point is, the remaining ingot of bronze is believed to have enough material for a further 80 or so Crosses. If you want to put 85, be my guest and go right ahead. --Deathphoenix 01:08, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Facts from the MOD http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/ophons05/vcfactsht.htm Jooler 08:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure I saw a docu a few years ago that showed that Hancocks' had a tray VCs that has been cast but not finished for use with future recipeients. I think they had about 15 medals. So the true figure of remaining medals could be 100 or so. Jooler 09:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Good point. I think having the extra medals is separate from the ingot, but should be mentioned together. In other words, we have about 15 Crosses already made, and an ingot enough for a further 80 or so Crosses. --Deathphoenix 14:39, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I can't find the site now, but earlier I read that they make batches of 12 at a time and that the last time a batch was made was in something like 1959. Somewhere else it sais that they replace lost or stolen medals from time to time and that they currently (probably before the latest issue) have seven in storage. Jooler 14:50, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am wondering, are the miniature Victoria Crosses made from the same cannon bronze that the large ones are made from. This question arose when I was looking at this photo of Smokey Smith Dowew 19:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Valour Road

I was thinking of adding a small bit about Valour Road in Winnipeg, MB, Canada. Three Victoria Cross winners all lived on Pine Street in Winnipeg. It was later named to Valour Road in their honour. It's believed to be the only street in the world that have had three Victoria Cross winners. I think that could be worth noting. What do people think?


sounds interesting but not much to do with the VC though - b1link82

Go ahead. It's a relevant subject. -- Necrothesp 08:26, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely. Doesn't it have it's own article yet? DJ Clayworth 13:53, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Total Awarded

Has the figure of total VCs awarded been updated since Beharry's award? Lisiate 20:30, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

There were a big slew of edits then; I don't think all the total figures were updated at the same time, but they did all get updated within a day or two. Shimgray 12:15, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Theif of the VC

Given the black market value of the VC they are often targeted by theives. I have created a section for this. Dowew 03:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Forking

Canada created their own VC award, but it was awarded to nobody yet. It can be seen at http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=1.Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Photo

Here is a new photo I have found: http://www.mod.uk/img/medals/vc_obv_hr.jpg. Enjoy. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Coal minors vc

Anybody know anything about the existence of this medal ?

[8] Dowew 00:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I suspect this is the Edward Medal for industrial bravery, which was later superseded by the George Cross. -- Necrothesp 02:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Ashcroft

Do you think the article should mention the trivia that Michael Ashcroft is beleived to own about 100 VC's ? Dowew 17:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, he's a significant player when medals come up for auction, so I've created an "Unofficial collections" section for it. -- Arwel (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed New Zealand VC

Has New Zealand adopted its own VC ? I have been reading this report about the New Zealand Honour system and it said that someone had suggested replacing British Honours with a four level Victoria Cross system, which the author describes as "bizarre". From the looks of the official page of the New Zealand Honour System, NZ, like Australia and Canada has created its own VC. Dowew 05:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

well, according the this page New Zealand has "created" its own VC, although this looks to only be an administrative change. Dowew 00:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
NZ now has The Victoria Cross for New Zealand .."instituted in 1999 to replace the British Victoria Cross for future awards to New Zealand military personnel. [9] Brian | (Talk) 05:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New web resources on the VC

The National Archives has just released a variety of web resources relating to the VC. This includes images of the original Royal Warrant, and a searchable register of (most of) the awards

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/victoriacross.asp

Since I work for the National Archives, I think it better to leave it up to others as to how to reference this material from Wikipedia.

David Underdown 11:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Recommended for the VC by the enemy

Lieutenant-Commander Gerard Broadmead Roope was also awarded the VC after the recommendation from the captain of the German cruiser Admiral Hipper so Lloyd Allan Trigg wasn't the only one who got a VC that way, right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.234.137.41 (talk • contribs) .

You're right. I'll update the article accordingly. --Deathphoenix 19:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
And I have updated it even further. There is an important point here. Had the German u-boat captain not recommended Trigg be decorated, he would never have been decorated because no-one else could know about the action. But, had the German ship's captain not recommended Broadmead Roope be decorated, he would probably have still been decorated. Trigg got the VC on evidence given solely by the enemy, but there were many survivors from Broadmead Roope's vessel to corroborate the events.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Moriori (talk • contribs) . (Oops, sorry. Moriori 19:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
I suspected as much. Excellent rewording. :-) --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is This?

Currently on ebay, there is a sepia photograph of a soldier. which states that the soldier is wearing The Indian Mutiny Medal, The Khedive Star and the Victoria Cross. Just out of curiosity, are there any sleuths out there who can identify this soldier, by uniform rank or whatever? I am sure there are.I have not reproduced the photo in case I breach rules. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funnybone (talk • contribs).

Could be tricky - there were a lot of VCs awarded in the mutiny - 20+ at the relief of Lucknow alone. You'd have more luck if you could identify his unit. Lisiate 22:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australian vs Canadian stuff

If you want to add Australian stuff, don't delete the Canadian stuff. It is unnecessary. Ekrub-ntyh 00:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stamp image

I wonder if it would be possible to put up a higher resolution image of the Canadian stamp, allowing the words "Pro Valore" to be more easily seen. Maybe whoever put the image in could do that. Biff Loman 19:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VC can't be removed.

Unlike almost any other award (GC perhaps?) even knighthoods the order is not revoked irrespective of the subsequent actions of the holder. I think perhaps this should be included. [10]

""The King feels so strongly that, no matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear the VC on the scaffold". Alci12 18:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It's already noted in the section "Forfeited VCs". -- Arwel (talk) 18:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
It is now I read directly - I had searched for 'stripped' and the quote via my editing tool which didn't pick the entry up. I still think however the actual quote is better than a paraphrasing Alci12 23:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As a serving member of the Australia Army. In the Department of Defence, Ceremonial Manual Volume One Dated 2003, Annex B to Chapter 13 Para 4 States that; Victoria Cross winners, unless they are serving commissioned officers in the armed forces are not saluted

[edit] Saluting

Please read paragraph above.


if someone earns the victoria cross does that meant that someone with a high rank has to salute them before they salute the rank like the polish Virtuti Militari.Corustar 10:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not really 'has to' - but it is the custom and tradition that even a general will initiate a salute to a VC wearer

Thank you for your reply ive been waiting awhile for one, i thought it odd that theres no mention of saluting when both the medal of honour and virtuti militari have it as a rule/custom.Corustar 21:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that this is quite a significant fact that should be included in the article. Whilst the writer above (no name) says that they don't have to, actually they do. Officers have been known in the past to ask why a VC awarded soldier has not saluted them, only for that soldier to say "You need to salute this.." and points to his chest!
The reason behind the salute is that when Queen Victoria (whom the Cross is named after)awarded the first recipients, the Prince Consort saluted weach recipient with grave and respectful coutesy.
Also as stated on the wikipedia article Salute -- "Custom, however, does dictate that a general should salute a private if the private has the Medal of Honor, the same convention applies in the United Kingdom to holders of the Victoria Cross and in the Netherlands to holders of the Military Willems Order"(Jezarnold 16:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC))
If you can find a source for it then go on and add it.
Xdamrtalk 16:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alfred John Shout

It is being reported on Australian Television that the VC awarded to Alfred John Shout has been sold at auction for $A1,000,000 on 24th July 2006. Gnangarra 14:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Is there a news article that you could provide a link to? --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Sorry I just caught the story on Channel 10 Television News tonight(23:00 24/7 gmt+8), when I find a link that useable as a reference I'll add. Should be in the print media and associated netsites tomorrow, just warning editors to keep an eye out for information. Gnangarra 15:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
      • A link The Age, Australia Gallipoli VC medal sets auction record. Gnangarra 15:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Auction house Bonhams and Goodman has yet update there net page. suggest waiting for that and use as the reference for the article.
        • Great, thanks. When the auction house has a link, that'll be good, but your news article link is good enough as a source. --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a very small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently may not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. --- The Bethling(Talk) 23:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VC Development

Cpl Bryan Budd is speculated to be awarded a postumous VC. My source is The Sun newspaper. Yes I know they aren`t the most reliable authority on the matter, but it does reference military authorities. Any comments ?

Do you have a link to that source? Moriori 20:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope, but it shouldn`t be hard to get hold of yesterdays Sun newspaper.

As its still speculation and no confirmation until next year suggest that maybe it shouldnt be part of the article yet, previous speculation of a VC award for a UK servicemen was later didnt result in the commendation. Gnangarra 13:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Several commendations have been made in Afghanistan: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/28/nmedals28.xml
However an award for Bryan Budd is expected today, according to the Telegraph who (along with the Times) are quite likely to know these things: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/14/nvc14.xml Hakluyt bean 03:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forfeitures

The section on forfertuires is not particularly clear. It says that those 8 who were stripped of their medals have been returned to official lists. I assume this means they are still considered awardees of the medal? Some of their medals are still displayed. All of them died before the 1920s except one in 1921 so I assume the issue of pensions never came up. Were attempts made to return the medals to their families? Also, in most of the pages for those who forfeited their medals, it's not made clear that the forfeiture has been reversed (assuming my understanding is correct). Nil Einne 08:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead link

Reference 10, (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/08/23/victoria040823.html) referenced in the theft section gives a 404 error.--82.152.220.87 21:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colour of ribbon

The colour of the ribbon is described as red in the text and crimson in the caption to the picture. Neither is correct. I believe it is officially described as "claret" and is a quite a different colour to both the red and the purple that appears in other British medals. Can anyone back this up? GavinTillman 18:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the 1856 Warrant:
...the Cross shall be suspended from the left breast, by a blue riband for the Navy, and by a red riband for the Army.
Clearly not too helpful. On the other hand, literature on the topic habitually describes the ribbon as being crimson. Most of these books seem to treat the Warrant's use of 'red' as an oddity. I'm not aware of any other official description, one varying from the terms of the Warrant.
Xdamrtalk 00:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not the last surviving VC

I presume that the following is the last surviving VC of WW1... somebody like to correct it? In August 2005, Ernest Alvia ("Smokey") Smith, Canada's last surviving VC —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Purple Aubergine (talk • contribs) 21:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

No, Smith's article makes it clear that he won his VC in WW2. It's not difficult to parse In August 2005, Ernest Alvia ("Smokey") Smith, Canada's last surviving VC as meaning that Smith was the last Canadian alive who had won the VC – since he passed on, there are no living Canadians who have won the VC. -- Arwel (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
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