Talk:Vicar of Christ

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I've made some minor changes since it seemed to be written from the point of view of a Roman Catholic and that church's assertions were presented as fact. I fully accept that it is now written from the point of view of an non-sectarian Christian hence the NPOV marking. Jonathan3 22:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antichrist - Words...

Someone added this:

But what the popes forgot to mention is that vicar of Christ comes from the Greek Vicarious Christi. Vicarious Christi literally means anti-Christ.

but it was soon removed:

(rv 'etymological' nonsense)

I think the logic of the anti-Christ thing is that the Greek for "anti-Christ" means "in place of Christ" - as does the Latin for "Vicar of Christ". If someone can verify this it might be relevant to include as a well-known view, though perhaps in a less sarcastic tone ;-)Jonathan3 21:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Though Greek is a complex language, so anti- may in other cases have other meanings, etymologists go by the logical application -an AC leads the ennemies of Christ, the Pope followers- of the major use (equivalent to Latin contra-) "antichrist - c.1300, from L.L. antichristus, from Gk. antikhristos [I John ii.18], from anti- "against" + khristos" (Etymology OnLine, http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=anti-christ&searchmode=none). Fastifex 10:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Vicarious Christi literally means "Christ subsitute". This means that Catholics, unlike Protestants and other Christains with the 'sola scriptura' theology, believe the Pope, when speaking from 'ex-cathedra' is speaking as Christ Himself and is infallible. (Look up "First Vatican Council). Roman Catholics also believe that the Pope is "exempt from the liability of sin", which totally contradicts St. Paul. Ironically, it was only after the RCC's rise to power in Europe that the term 'Vicarious Christi' was first used- previously, the Pope was known as the Vicar of St. Peter; not Jesus the Messiah. --DandanxD 09:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"Vicarius Christi" has a very specific meaning within Catholic theology with regard to the Papacy. It stands to reason that its meaning should be defined according to the Catholic understanding of its usage. Why would one impose another meaning upon it which the Catholic Church does not have since it is a term used by it within a particular theological context. "Vicarius" in Latin means a "substitute," "deputy," "viceregent," "adjutant," "proxy," etc.(cf. Harpers' Latin Dictionary, Vol 2, American Book Company, 1907, p. 1985). It does not have the meaning of the Greek preposition "anti" which means "opposite" or "against" (the Latin preposition "ante" means "before"). In order to make such a connection, one would have to find such usage in the Latin/Greek lexicographical works, and it would have to be common or usual, not anomalous in order to be of academic value. What is happening here, frankly, is the injection of prejudicial, theological Protestant agendas that have little relevance to an objective definition of a simple term in Catholic theology. This is an article about a term that references a Catholic doctrinal understanding of the Papacy. Protestants do not normally use this term, nor do they use it with a different theological meaning. If they did, then the complaint would be just that this is a one-sided "Catholic definition," and the Protestant usage and definition would also have to be included. Now, if I am incorrect, and there is some Protestant denomination out there that in fact normally uses this term in a theologically different way than the Catholic Church does, then its definition should be presented here with source documentation/references to support the claim. I might also point out that Dandanx is incorrect when he asserts that Catholics believe the Pope is "exempt from the liability of sin." The Catholic Church teaches no such thing regarding the personal morality of its Popes. It merely teaches that the Pope is infallible when he speaks "ex cathedra" (in his office as teacher/Bishop of the universal Church) on questions of "faith and morals." This is not the same thing as saying that he is personally "sinless," or not responsible or "liable" for his own sin - which he is. KStahl M.Div., M.A. - BTW: I'm a Protestant! (Nov 27, 2006)

Thank you for your lenghty comment. You were correct when you said the Pope was not exempt from the liaility of sin and yes, it is correct that Catholics believe the Pope is Christ Himself when he is speaking from "ex-cathedra", which is found nowhere in the Holy Bible. I guess this was how the Pope and the RCC gained so much power during the Middle Ages. I am a Protestant myself and I am saddened by some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

--DandanxD 11:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Before?

'Anti' in Latin means "before," indicating that, as you ascend the ranks of power in the Church, you get to the Pope right before you get to Christ.

• Though more prosaic, Latin too has several uses of Anti-, including some directy imported from Greek; again counter- or against - is prominent, as in antidotum 'antidote' (original Latin) against a poisonous chemical agent, and the logical use, or from Greek antissophista 'scholar of the opposite opinion', and even Antitheus 'adversary demon' or, in Judeo-Christianity use, the Devil (fitting Antichrist exactly, as Christ is one of the three divine Persons, and theus clearly equivalent to Greek theos 'god'). (examples from a Latin-Dutch dictonary)Fastifex 13:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to the issue. The prepositions "Anti" or "ante" have no etymological relationship to the Latin substantive "vicarius." This is merely an attempt to impose a strained and biased definition upon the Catholic theological term "Vicarius Christi" with reference to the Pope. The fact that one does not "believe" that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth, or the fact that one does not accept the theological prerogatives arrogated to itself by the Papacy, as most Protestants do not, does not justify distorting Catholic dogma or injecting non-objective perjudicial material into the definition. On the other hand, I see no reason why the general Protestant "objection" to the use of this title as a "singular" title for the Pope cannot be raised. This would be based on the Protestant principle of the "priesthood of all believers." All believers are Christ's "vicars" or "personal representatives" on earth. In Protestant theology, the papacy would have no "exclusive" or "unique" claim to the title. All Christians, by virtue of their faith - the "new being" - are the living embodiment of the resurrected Christ. This is the theological "issue" for Protestants. The other Protestant objection rests upon the interpretation of Matt. 16:18. The whole question of the use the term "Vicarius Christi" with regard to the Pope, is very much related to the Catholic understanding of this verse. Protestants understand this verse to mean that Christ founded his Church upon Peter's "confession of faith." Catholics understand this verse to mean that Christ established a "chain" of apostolic leadership through Peter and his successors. So indeed, there are a complex of issues to be sorted out here. Please just state the facts and forget the anti-Catholic "polemics." KStahl M.Div, M.A. (Nov. 28, 2006).