Talk:Vestigial structure

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Good articles Vestigial structure has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do.
If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.
Please note that vestigial structures need not be useless. Vestigial structures are anatomical structures .. which are considered to have lost much or all of their original function through evolution.
Peer review Vestigial structure has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
Charles Darwin This article is part of WikiProject Evolutionary biology, an attempt at building a useful set of articles on evolutionary biology and its associated subfields such as population genetics, quantitative genetics, molecular evolution, phylogenetics, evolutionary developmental biology. It is distinct from the WikiProject Tree of Life in that it attempts to cover patterns, process and theory rather than systematics and taxonomy. If you would like to participate, there are some suggestions on this page (see also Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ for more information) or visit WikiProject Evolutionary biology.
To-do list for Vestigial structure: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh

Currently under peer review (add suggestions to this list as they come up)

  • Add more non-human vestigial structures to its section
  • Provide citations for the human appendix

/Archive 01 - 18:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

/Archive 02 - 18:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Vestigial structure has failed, for the following reason(s):

Good content, but the bullet-pointed list of examples should be converted to normal prose. Worldtraveller 10:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to say that i think the list format was far superior to the prose. To call it a list is probably incorrect, rather subtitled paragraphs. In the 'list' format the content is clear as the eye scans the page. This is not the case for the prose. My gut instinct would be to keep the bullets despite the failure at the good article nomination page. David D. (Talk) 02:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I agree with you in this case which is why I brought it over to Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes where I was told that having it in lists was actually acceptable. I actually left a message on Silence's page to see what he thought before I went ahead and reverted it.--SomeStranger(t|c) 09:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I can see two reasons to remove the bulleted list for the "human vestiges" section. (1) Each entry in the bulleted list is a full paragraph long, making it already "prose-ish" in girth. (2) There are only four entries on the list, now that the vestigial reflexes and so on have been delistified. I could see an argument for a list if there were, say, 10 items on the list, or if each entry on the list was only a line or two long, but the current format doesn't really seem like an effective or standard use of listing. How about we enlarge the "non-human" vestiges listing (I'd say we should have 15 at the minimum), and use a list for that, once it's long enough? -Silence 20:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Okay, I see your point, let's go ahead and revert it to the version you created where they were in pure prose. I will set to work on the non-human structures again later. That one source I found has a list of about 50. :)--SomeStranger(t) 21:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

I see no problem with the bullet list; this is GA, not FAC. Great content, fully cited, licensed photos... we have a winner. Kafziel 16:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wrong information

the whales pelvis are really bones which have anchor points to muscles that whales use during sex and giving birth they need them becasue they are large animals the human appendix has a funtion and is part of your immune system and humans need thier tail bone for walking with more ease and has nerves going out of it

Please read the article. It records exactly what this article is about, with appropriate references. This is not the place to discuss things in general, only the improvement of the article. The article records the published views of people. Please go to somewhere else, such as talk.origins, if you wish to discuss these topics. Skittle 10:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
What he said was a fact, and this vestigial whale non-sense is a lie. Is he being sent away for critiquing and trying to improve the article, or because he is exposing a lie in evolution? Most if not all of this article should be removed, and as per the articles I linked to have been proven false many years ago. Why is this considered a good article?
A whale of a tale?
Your appendix ... it’s there for a reason
Embryonic development (tail bone)
--64.22.206.248 01:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If you had read the article, as I suggested the editor do, you would see that what he said is completely irrelevant to what this article is about. In particular, pay attention to the meaning of the word 'vestigial' in this article. Those AiG links really are laughable, and do not prove anything. Nor do they provide reputable sources that could be investigated. The other poster was not 'sent away', I said "if you wish to discuss these topics" and provided an appropriate place for such discussions. This is not the place to tell us evolution is a lie perpetrated by evil atheists worshipping Darwin, as AiG tries to :-) Skittle 02:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Then tell me why several living whales with developed hind limbs (including femora, tibiae and fibulae, and in some cases with digits) have been discovered ([1]). Even Carl Wieland, the CEO of Answers in Genesis, has admitted that this is a serious challenge to young earth creation models. Thefamouseccles 00:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed paragraph

"(It should be noted that his comment on nature not making rapid jumps is now considered out of date according Stephen Jay Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium. However the majority of his argument still stands in modern evolutionary theory)"

I removed this for several reasons. Firstly, we've taken great care to cite as much as we can in this article, and this isn't fully cited, although that can easily be fixed. More importantly, it drops what I gather is still a disputed theory in as established, and I'm not sure it really belongs in this section. I'm not trying to get rid of the information, but I'm not sure it belongs here. Skittle 11:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

"Natura non facit saltus", as it is sometimes known, is well worth an article of its own; it was raised as an objection against quantum mechanics, for example. The German and Italian articles, by the looks of it, have a short article each on it, so I'd suggest just redlinking the relevant phrase.
I recently read a column on evolution in the economist which, while fairly unscientific, did portray this as an ongoing debate; I think it's been settled in physics, though.
RandomP 13:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
What if 'nature does not make rapid jumps' was piped to 'Natura non facit saltus'. If yuo know enough about this to make a stub, I'd be grateful, otherwise I'll look for somewhere else to send it. Skittle 13:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I know enough about altavista to translate the German Wikipedia article, I suppose. No references that I can see, though.
Help would, of course, be appreciated.
RandomP 14:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vestigal Structure

The clitoris in females and the nipples of males are NOT vestigial, for male nipples never had the function of nursing young, and the clitoris never had the function of a penis. Instead, these are anatomical traits that are formed in an embyro before sexual differentiation occurs. The paragraphs refering to these as vestigial should be removed!!!

The information on this page is very inaccurate. I have taught anatomy at the college level including at the graduate level for over 20 years and not one text book that we have used, or I have reviewed, agree with the section on human anatomy in this article. I have tried to correct this article but my corrections were removed. I now inform students that I will not accept references to this web site on term papers. It seems that Darwinists have little concern for accuracy, but only indoctrination into their world view.

"I now inform students that I will not accept references to this web site on term papers" Good! They should be using this site as a starting point to direct them to other sources, which they should use as references. Your last comment makes it rather clear to me why your edits were removed... Skittle 21:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"It seems that Darwinists have little concern for accuracy, but only indoctrination into their world view." -- With your position as a lecturer, I would haved assumed you would not come here to make sweeping generalization of "Darwinists". I guess I was wrong. Please come here to help correct mistakes, that's what a wiki is for, however I'm pretty sure we can do without these sort of attacks, although I understand you were "offended" by the mistakes being done here. Actually, I think a section here for "commonly mistaken or disputed organs" would be in place, because it's not only on Wikipedia I have encountered this claim. So you shouldn't just teach your students to steer clear of Wikipedia, but to always use multiple sources for verification. This applies to just about any scientific article. -- Northgrove 08:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Since I also teach A&P, I thought I would weigh in on this. It does not matter what one believes about human vestigial organs, but what the empirical research says. If students started their research with this web article on vestigial organs, and they did their homework, they would find that most everything in the section about humans is wrong. Then they would conclude that Wikipedia is a worthless resource. I should note that one study found that Wikipedia was more accurate then the Encyclopedia Britannica. In this case they are correct. The 2003 edition, volume 14 page 1082 claims that humans have “more than 100” vestigial organs which it defines as “organs that are useless, degenerate”! I would love to see a list of 100 vestigial organs. I checked my college A&P textbooks, and not one of the 15 I looked at listed a single structure as vestigial. All gave the proper use for each organ and structure that this article listed as vestigial. Evolutionists may claim that some are vestigial in humans, but I know of no anatomist that does. The scientific research is very clear on this topic. Do research on each of these claims and you will be surprised.

I believe you are confusing anatomical and evolutionary definitions of vestigial. From a biological point of view, a structure is vestigial if it has lost its original function; of course, it may have gained another (indeed, we would expect truly useless organs as you suggest to be lost to natural selection). To the earlier poster, I agree with Skittle: I am not certain why you would ever allow term papers to cite Wikipedia as a source; in general, encyclopedias are inappropriate references for such works, I believe. — Knowledge Seeker দ 22:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy Disputed / NPOV

I am placing {{NPOV}} and {{disputed}} on this article. As per comments above, in the very least, the factual accuracy of vestigial structures is in question. The examples given, supposedly have been proven wrong years ago, and that needs to be investigated! Taking the possible errors into account, this article seems to assume they are fact. The sources given are heavily weighted on the evolutionary way of thinking. There needs to be a better balance, and the article shouldn't assume one position. --64.22.206.248 01:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Let us please not turn this into another evolution vs creationist/intelligent design debate. All science is based on current evidence and is not written in stone, subject to change at any time. This article is not trying to impose some dogmatic world view, it is simply explaining what the current evidence suggests is true. If you are coming from the creationist school of thinking, you should most likely discount the entire idea of useless organs, as explained in the criticism section of this very article, making this a non-issue. 76.185.184.143 04:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
"The sources given are heavily weighted on the evolutionary way of thinking." Do you know any reputable, scientific sources that are not? If the examples given were "proven wrong years ago", please show us the sources for this so we can improve the article. Also, please be sure that you are using the same meaning of 'vestigial' that is used in this article, and by biologists. Skittle 17:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well you guys are obviously biased, because as implication goes from your comments, you are not going to accept any creationist sources as "reputable". But you could probably say the same of me, so we're even. I did give you the wrong source for the whale issue. Here's the right one [2] (scroll down to Vestigial legs?). Here's a quote...
...However, these so-called ‘remnants’ are not useless at all, but help strengthen the reproductive organs—the bones are different in males and females...
No, the article doesn't impose anything except for what the authors put there. I'd argue that current evidence shows that this article is incorrect. There's nothing wrong with that. Does it prove evolution is wrong? No, it just shows that these particular examples of vestigial organs do not hold up to scientific scrutiny, and therefore are not valid.
What am I advocating for this article? In the very least it needs additional information explaining the other views of these examples of "vestgial structure". And we need to take out statements that assume it's fact, and say that "this source thinks it's a fact". Is that too much to ask? It's not balanced as it is with most of the article being pro-vestigial, while only mentioning a criticism and not giving more detail on it. --64.22.206.248 02:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Really, read the article. "these so-called ‘remnants’ are not useless at all" has nothing to do with the article, because as explained at length in the article, vestigial does not mean 'useless'. Also read the controversy section explaining that this has always been the case. With sources. Thank you. Skittle 14:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
i really don't think wikipedia could handle having to put "this source thinks it's a fact" on every disputed page...the fact that there are citations implies that it is the "belief" of a certain source anyway.Scholarus 21:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some more references would be nice

As just one example, the article says, "The vermiform appendix is a vestige of the cecum."

Could we get proof for that, please? That it is homologous in shape, attachment, or position to the cecum has little bearing on whether it is related by DNA to the cecum. Until and unless someone can demonstrate that the DNA which codes for the cecum is related by X degree or in Y way to the DNA which codes for the appendix, statements like this are just wild speculation. That is, let's see some evidence that the DNA for the different organs is homologous and not just the structure.

Here's a reference to consider:

"... homologous structures need not be controlled by identical genes, and homology of phenotypes does not imply similarity of genotypes." - Gavin deBeer, formerly Professor of Embryology at the University of London and Director of the British Museum (Natural History), Homology, An Unsolved Problem (London: Oxford University Press, 1971), p. 16

Evidence, please, evidence.

Erik Eckhardt 03:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Darwin's view

I've added this small paragraph to the history section:

Darwin however still often refers to the use and disuse of structures having some role in heredity, which mixes a form of Lamarckism with the theory of natural selection. In the final chapter of The Origin of Species he describes the process: "This has been effected chiefly through the natural selection of numerous successive, slight, favourable variations; aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts".

Does this represent Darwin's view reasonably well? I'm not sure exactly what views he held regarding the inheritance of aquired traits, but he seems to believe to some extent in the conditions of an organisms life affecting its reproduction somehow, and in the quote above seems to imply that use and disuse of a structure will be inherited by the offspring. I'm not 100% sure on this interpretation, please feel free to remove it if you feel it isn't accurate. Richard001 08:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding Darwin's views here. Darwin never espoused any form of Lamarckism; his theory of natural selection, indeed, was in direct opposition to Lamarckism. Darwin certainly did believe that "the use and disuse of structure have some role in heredity", but this is not, in itself, Lamarckian. In Lamarckism, the use and disuse has a significant role on an individual level: if a specific organism doesn't use a limb, then that organism will pass this trait on to its descendent. In Darwinism, on the other hand, if a population doesn't use a limb for many generations, then the population's descendents are more likely to develop degenerate or re-adapted versions of that limb, and/or to develop more strong in their other limbs to account for this. In the former case, this change is the result of actually directly inheriting the change in an organism's characteristics over its lifetime; in the latter case, this change is the result of natural selection acting to promote the propagation of traits which are conducive to a population's fitness, in this case being traits that, in one way or another, "make up" for the costly disused limb. The effects of these two postulated processes might be similar in some cases, which seems to be where your confusion arises (as you mistakenly say that the "use and disuse of structures having some role in heredity" is itself Lamarckian), but the actual way this change occurs is what tells the two apart. The conditions of an argument's life do affect its reproduction: if they didn't, then evolution by natural selection would be just as impossible as Lamarckian evolution! Although Darwin's view on the hereditary mechanism, pangenesis, was eventually falsified, that view has little in common with Lamarckism: his hypothesis was that discrete units of heredity (cf. genes) called gemmules were shed by cells in the body to gather in the reproductive organs. -Silence 11:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
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