Talk:Vermiform appendix

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Here are some tasks you can do:
  • Cleanup:
    • More references required - article is very weak in this area
    • Expand:
    • Expand on the appendix in non-human animals (details of function etc)

Contents

[edit] Function

Would like to hear definitive evidence to prove appendix has function. Creationist websites don't count. --Alex.tan 10:52, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"Although it used to be believed that the appendix had no function and was an evolutionary relic, this is no longer thought to be true. Its greatest importance is the immunological function it provides in the developing embryo, but it continues to function even in the adult, although it's not so important and we can live without it.

"The function of the appendix appears to be to expose circulating immune cells to antigens from the bacteria and other organisms living in your gut. That helps your immune system to tell friend from foe and stops it from launching damaging attacks on bacteria that happily co-exist with you."

Extracted from

http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/article.jsp?id=lw968

Shantavira 14:44, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Btw, that link does not link to any relevant information on this. Still awaiting a link to good evidence. Alex.tan 15:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

That text can now be found at the New Scientist web site at http://www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=lw968 . Poslfit 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad Paragraph?

One explanation has been that the appendix is a vestigial structure with no current purpose.[citation needed] The appendix is thought to have descended from an organ in our distant herbivorous ancestors called the cecum (or caecum). The cecum is maintained in modern herbivores, where it houses the bacteria that digest cellulose, a chemically tough carbohydrate that these animals could not otherwise utilize. The human appendix contains no significant number of these bacteria, and cellulose is indigestible to us. It seems likely that the appendix lost this function before our ancestors became recognizably human.[citation needed]

This paragraph is misleading at best. Not only is the whole thing uncited, but it seems to me to also imply that modern humans don't have a cecum, which they certainly do, as any beginner's anatomy book (or cadaver) will show. Cecum is a good starter for a reference to the existing structure in humans. I'm tempted to just delete that whole paragraph outright, as I've already seen once instance of it being misquoted elsewhere. Unless someone's up for re-writing it with proper references? The bit about vestigiality can stay, as that is fairly common thought; it's everything after that sucks. --Dthatcher 19:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World Record

So Spencer Bayle's page says that he . Maybe this article should be altered to reflect the current record-holder? -GregoryWeir 30 June 2005 20:24 (UTC)

Better now. -GregoryWeir 14:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Which side?

Is the appendix on the right or left of the body (i.e. is the picture showing the front or the back?) --Henrygb 10:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Good question. It's normally on the right side. Annotating the image and updating the text to clarify. Alex.tan 18:30, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lacking appendix

I read in an article that recent laparoscopies have shown that many people do lack any appendix at all. This would be a disaster for the creationists, which claims the appendix is not an vestigal organ, but a fully functional one. If it turns out some people are born without, it would be very hard for them to accept that it actually is a vestigal organ, even if it actually still have a function, but not as important as they wish to believe. Not that it would matter if it did.

Some people are born with other congenital defects, does that mean those organs were vestigial? Creationists seem to mostly accept that mutations occur, but that they usually result in loss of genetic information and thus are not useful in explaining evolution. Surely this could just be the result of such a mutation? Is the loss of the appendix hereditary?

I mentioned this in the article, and shortly arter it was removed. The external link is described as "evolutionary biology", but after a look on the site I added "creationism" to the description. Shortly after it was removed. That's creationists in a nutshell; remove everything you don't like or what you cinsider as a threat to your personal beliefs.

Do a search on vestigal organs on Google, and you will find almost exclusively phages driven by creationists.


Well, I reverted your edit because what you added made it sound like the talkorigins.org article also supported the creationist point of view, which is wrong (and, I suspect, not what you intended). Alex.tan 12:32, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

I really don't wanna offend anyone but if the writer above me is a doctor, then he is probably correct. but if not, chances are, he's/she's guillible. I don't mean to insult anyone, but he should really check it out if it's really true. You can't believe anything in the internet anyhow. User:202.160.21.17

You shoot your own argument in the foot by saying that either I'm a doctor and therefore, I'm correct or I'm not and therefore I'm wrong. Whether I'm correct or not should not depend on whether I'm a doctor - which, by the way, I am. In future, please sign all comments with ~~~~. Alex.tan 01:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
If you cant believe anything on the internet, why would Wikipedia even exist?

[edit] Web Page Copies from Wikipedia

[edit] vestigial

Of course the appendix is vestigial. It's also obvious that it has an unknown function. We want to know what function that might be and how it affect people who has it. There's many things we don't know about human body yet, it would be at very least pretensious to overlook the appendix.

As of me, I believe the appendix must produce unknown substances, probably similar to hormones, because science usually overlook things not yet known by science. Not as much as church, but still do. It could even be related to stress.

--Cacumer 2006-01-27 00:20:21 (UTC)

Perhaps you don't realize that your statements, "Of course the appendix is vestigial" and "It's also obvious that it has an unknown function" contradict each other and are mutually exclusive. Oh, in future, please sign your discussion statements. Alex.tan 23:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I always forget my signature...

I did realize what you said before, and thanks for stressing it out. Perhaps you don't realize what vestigial means.

Thanks for your help. :)

--Cacumer 21:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

A vestigial organ is one whose function has been lost or is no longer performing any function. Therefore, a vestigial organ cannot have an unknown function. It either has a function (and is therefore not vestigial) or has no function (and is therefore vestigial). You cannot have a vestigial organ with an unknown function. That's the point. Alex.tan 06:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense. But then I think we're using the wrong name here. What Vestigial tells me is that something was left behind, and that's it. It doesn't tell me that it doesn't have any function. Maybe a better name would be obsolete.

--Cacumer 04:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the term vestigial is being mis-defined here. From our own definition, it is a structure "...whose original function is considered to have been lost or reduced...". Not necessarily lost, just reduced. --Dcfleck 15:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
A vestige is a holdover from another time. For instance, a riding crop (horsewhip) is a vestige in that sense that people don't ride horses anymore. But it still has function, i.e. it is used for sexual entertainment. Consider also cannons; no one fights wars with cannons any more, but they're still used for 21-gun salutes, decorative purposes, and historical recreation. They've lost their original function, so they're vestigal. 32.97.110.142 19:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Last but not least before a debate on the relevance of any organ, we must consider that science has overlooked many things in the past and to assume that doctor, scientist or garbageman theory we must take into consideration that we are human and not perfect. What gives the right to anyone to assume it has no purpose stricktly because we dont understand it to its full extent. Thats similar to stating that since we don't understand a certain religion or belief that it is useless. (for lack of a better term/explination. Anyone who states it has no use 100% is simply ignorant, if scientists cannot figure out a use for it does not mean that it is useless. One can make outrageous statements saying since humans being at the top of the food chain would need some sort of population control, this however does not seem like a large margin, but neither do all the other inperfections we have in our body to which can cause death. Take for example 6 people formed in a triangle in a family tree. If person 2 at the top had died due to appendicitis, would that not significantly change the outcome of the population? In the end no man no matter how smart or how ignorant can state something is "Impossible" and nobody on earth can state that something has no use. We as humans have made mistakes in the past with assumuming things.

(Just for a laugh) Building a BBQ, its put all together, and there are a few screws and bolts left over, most people automatically assume they have not overlooked anything, and most people always consider those as "Spare parts" and discard them as nothing. My wife says they go somewhere to this day I haven't checked every possible solution, I remain ignorant and bliss as my lack for determination to figure out what those "spare parts" actually do.

Funding for the study of an appendix is lacking due to the common misconception that it may have no use. Perhaps it has no use, but in the end, nobody can state that it has no use until they have checked every billionth factor to which could lead to its explination of its very existance today. --72.137.203.76 09:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)JD

The burden of proof is always on the person who makes the claim. It is up to you (or anyone else who claims it has a function) to prove it has a function rather than for me to search every last fossil and every last minute detail of all biological knowledge to prove that it has no function. In the absense of any good evidence that it has a function, it can be (rightly) assumed to have no good function despite all the searching for a function so far. Alex.tan 03:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "fact"

I tried and failed to verify the "fact" about the appendix possibly being involved in the digestion of raw meat in human ancestors. In fact, while attempting to verify, I could only find information that appeared contradictory to this idea, suggesting it is not a serious hypothesis. --Ginkgo100 talk · contribs 19:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Who said it was a fact ? I believe it was presented as one of many theories. If you found materials trying to disprove this idea, this suggests to me that someone took the suggestion seriously enough to debate it, so we should list both sides. Note that other theories, like the immune system theory, also have counter-evidence listed. StuRat 05:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact I removed was that the hypothesis was a serious one. It was not a matter of evidence v. counter-evidence; it was a matter of no evidence whatsoever. I did not even find anything trying to disprove the idea; rather, I found materials that suggested to me that it may not be plausible. The theory does not meet WP:VERIFY because nothing at all could be found to verify it is a serious theory. If you can find something that verifies that a medical researcher, anthropologist, or other scientist has seriously put the hypothesis forward, then by all means add the fact back with the citation. --Ginkgo100 talk · contribs 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Note to others: I found the evidence he asked for, and presented it on my talk page, after which Ginko100 agreed and restored the material in question. StuRat 12:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, StuRat, I forgot to add that here. Thanks again for your help. --Ginkgo100 talk · contribs 16:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
No prob. StuRat 23:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Found one vestigal source.

Does a collection of info from various sources count, ie. a biology text? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Grottoman (talk • contribs) 09:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Undue weight, controversy and creationism

I made some changes to the article to downplay the "controversy" surrounding the appendix's function. I searched the Oxford Reference online and found no mention of any controversy. Searched the Medline dictionary and encyclopedia as well. The article seemed to give undue weight to minority views.-Andrew c 02:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

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