Talk:VC dimension
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Yes, but what is it?
"The VC dimension of a model f is the maximum number of points that can be shattered by f." Should this be the maximum number of points that f is _guaranteed_ to shatter? I think a graph (or two) might prove very useful! Kevin Saff
- Not sure if I understand your question. Are you asking whether the VC dimension is the maximum number of points N that can be shattered, regardless of the position of the N points? I believe the answer is yes. --hike395
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- Yes, that's what I meant. I think the new wording is more precise. Kevin Saff
Hi, I edited this most recently, and only thought about justifying myself here after the fact. There are definitely two different concepts: the maximum size at which one can shatter any set of that size, and and the maximum size at which one can shatter some set of that size. It is my understanding that the latter is the right definition. However, my work in this area was long ago, and in probability, not pattern recognition; so argue with me if you think I'm wrong. Mark Durst 21:30, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
- I believe it is the cardinality of the largest set that can be shattered by f. I think it is correct and understandable now -- hike395 04:04, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] someone should merge shatter into this article
Currently shatter is kind of a trivial dicdef, almost devoid of context. I'm a set theorist and AFAIK the term isn't used (or at least not much) in set theory; Google comes up with VC theory. Please just merge it into the def of VC dimension and then change shatter to a redirect here. Unless of course the notion is used somewhere in VC theory other than in the def of VC dimension; in that case, maybe merge to the VC theory page and redirect it there. --Trovatore 06:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Anon comment
The page has been updated somewhat based upon this earlier comment:I hope this gets posted; I have had difficulty editing Wikipedia pages on mathematics. About shattering, VC-classes, VC dimension. 1. The concept of shattering is important, and indeed should be a separate article. In fact, although this article is an excellent starting point, it should be generalized and expanded. 2. Moreover, there should be articles entitled "VC classes" or "Vapnik Cervonenkis classes" and also an article on "empirical processes". Please let me explain. Empirical processes are very important in probability and statistics; the theory of empirical processes is what we humans really use every day to form realistic and valid probabilistic judgements. 3. Shattering and Vapnik-Cervonenkis classes have become very important not only in computer learning theory, but also, in the past 25 years, they have become a vital mathematical tool in empirical processes, which is a mathematical constuct that is so important that it requires its own article. 4. This article about shattering is quite good, but is a special case and needs to be generalized. It involves elements of a fixed set. We need to generalize this to the concept of collections of sets (also called classes of sets). Please let me elaborate: A necessary preface, to be rigorous and precise: In set theory, one often cannot discuss "sets of sets", that is, sets whose elements are sets themselves, since this leads to logical inconsistencies and paradoxes (this topic should be an article too; it is an intriguing concept and related to shattering). Therefore, mathematicians speak and write of "classes of sets" or "collections of sets", not "sets of sets" . 5. The author made no error! The author did not discuss collections of sets; the article is good, but it should be generalized and illustrated with examples. 6. The generalization: The article on shattering should define and discuss shattering by a class (collection) of sets, not just by elements of a set H. For example, the class of all discs in the plane (2-space) cannot shatter every finite set F with 4 or more points, yet the class of all convex sets in the plane can shatter any finite set whatsoever, no matter how large its cardinality -- just "connect the dots". 6. Also, the article on shattering might be more helpful to a reader if the mathematical language is augmented with some explanation in English (or any other non-technical language) and if it would include examples. 7. I would do this myself, but I have tried to edit pages on mathematics in the Wikipedia, and have had no success; I do not know how to edit Wikipedia pages. I wish I did know how to do so. In fact, I hope I have been able to edit this page successfully. 8. See Wenocur, R.S. and Dudley, R.M. "Some special Vapnik-Chervonenkis classes" (1981) for more information on all this. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 151.197.61.27 (talk • contribs) in multiple edits ending 14:05, 15 December 2005
- With your elaborations, shatter may indeed deserve an article, but it needs a better name. Verbs make poor article titles; somebody needs to think of a noun. Perhaps Shattering (VC theory) ? That's the best I can come up with off the top of my head, but if the concept is used outside of VC theory, then maybe something slightly more general.
- I don't want this to sound aggressive, but I'm afraid your remarks about sets of sets are just wrong. Set theorists (I am one) talk about sets of sets all the time; they aren't the cause of the Russell paradox. The cause of the Russell paradox is the idea that every property should have an extension. However there's nothing wrong with discussing "classes" or "collections" of sets if it makes it easier for the reader to keep track of the types. So I left the language as you had it, but removed the false statement about Russell. --Trovatore 19:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I am so very new (just a few days now) to editing Wikipedia, that I did not even realize that I should have a user name, which I have now. Thank you for your comments to improve articles. You are certainly correct about not using a verb as a title. I was not the original author of the article, so whoever wrote it first chose that title. Now, I have created an article entitled "shattering", with the term in the gerund, i.e. noun form, not as the present participle of a verb. The article does indeed deserve to be its own entry. This is analagous to the entry "cumulative distribution function". One might argue that such an article should be merged into the article on probability theory, since cumulative distribution functions are primarily a subtopic of probability theory. Yet it works out well when such an important topic or sub-topic stands alone in its own article. We did indeed need to refer to "collections of all sets" in some work on shattering which did lead to a paradox when we need to "set of all sets". If I elaborate on that, and mention the paradox, would that be all right? Also, we needed to appeal to the Axiom of Choice for an example of shattering involving sets that depended on well-ordering the reals and actually, n-space and spaces with infinite dimension, too. We had been working in the field of empirical processes, an area of probability and statistics that warrents its own article; I am surprised the Wikipedia does not cover the topic already. Probability theory has its foundations in set theory as well as in measure theory, as I am sure you know, and referring to results in set theory and in measure theory, too, often becomes unavoidable. I genuinely appreciate your helping me improve my entries in the Wikipedia, and for understanding that the concept of shattering has applications beyond VC-theory, so that entitling it with the term VC-theory would be inappropriate since that would limit its scope. It would be even more inappropriate than, for example, renaming the article on cumulative distribution function as "cumulative distribution function (probability theory)". I plan to keep improving the article on "shattering" to illustrate its importance and connection with VC-theory, but also with areas more general than and different from VC-theory. Sorry for the long message, but I have some other questions. Please forgive my being so new at editting the Wikipedia. What is the mark-up language for math? I have been only guessing on how to use it. Is it some form of TEX that I do not recognize? Is there documentation or a user's guide; my results have not been pretty; for example, a capital letter C within the text looks too much like lower case C when writing an equation. Also, I cannot get rid of the article named "shatter"; I tried to do so, now that there is the article entitled "shattering", but was accused of vandalism. Thanks for all the help in making the Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. My user name is MathStatWoman.
