Talk:Varna in Hinduism

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[edit] Title, general content, and/or merging

The title of this article should be "Varna (caste)" or similar, since the sanskrit stem is "varna-", not "varnas-", and "Varnas" is just an english plural (and "Varna" should be a disambiguation page to "Varna (city)" -- Dbachmann 16:12, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

i propose this should be merged with Indian caste system. Varna (caste) currently redirects to Caste. The Caste article says "The Indian caste system is a social system in which people are divided into separate communities, known in English as castes, and in Hindi as Varna meaning "colour"", so it is a translated word. --Quiddity 21:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, there is nothing in this article which the Indian caste system doesn't explain better,so I just think this should become a redirect. DaGizza Chat (c) 00:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I just reduced the length of the intro by moving content into the main body of the article, but did not actually change content in a significant way. This article is supposed to be a supplement to Indian caste system to describe the specifics of the varna system, but it could use significant attention from an expert so it isn't just a place for opinions, but actually contains appropriate descriptions and details. Putting message box accordingly. --Scouttle 00:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Intro changed

I have copied over the varna part from article indian caste system. I have tried to make it more academic. There are a lot of repetitions and unwanted material that needs a cleapup. SV 17:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Varna as color

Varna doesn't mean skin color, it's talking about aura. Kshatriya means red, and Vaishya means yellow, those aren't skin colors, genious. So don't try to twist varna into a racist interpretation.

Varna has beem used to denote color in several contexts like Shyam varna(black color) or Shwet varna (fair).this too should be included. Holywarrior 10:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical and Lingual Accuracy

slight dePOVing, removed references to both indo european origin speculations and the harappan culture. "Varna" is certainly not attested from Harappa (there are no texts. Varna is Sanskrit). Dbachmann 11:27, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] A better perspective

The title 'famous opponents of the varna system' is a mis-representation. Yudhishtra of the Pandavas in the Mahabharata did say that what defines a Brahman is his conduct. Conduct in the context of the period was linked to his dharma as well as his duties and obligatons, which is well aligned witht he understanding of varna then. Likewise, all people who devote their lives solely in the pursuit of God, renouncing all worldly ties and obligations, do not fall under the classification of the 4 varnas. Thus a rishi/sadhu/saint/devotee like the Adi Sankara or Mirabai are renunciates having snapped all ties with kith and kin and worldly possessions and obligations and do not fall under any varna. When you renounce your worldly obligations you cannot be a Brahmin/Kshatriya/etc. In fact Hindu philosophy encourages everybody to be a renunciate and embrace the path devoted to the discovery of God as the sole focus, after one discharges one's worldly duties as enjoined and part of the varna, having snapped all ties with kith and kin. This basically implies, that everybody when they do this, become casteless. We thus see that there's nothing iron-clad about being part of the varnas from birth to death. Viswamitra was a Rishi. Yet he was a kshatriya by birth. He along with other Rishis were casteless and did not fall under any of the varnas.

[edit] Is it 4 castes and outcaste or is it 5 caste?

Under "4. Five Varnas", only four are listed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnas#Five_varnas. In the Brahmin link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin, the beginning says: "The fifth (sometimes erroneously clubbed into the fourth) section is the Dalit." Are there four or five?

I wonder if someone could explain why you have 5 entries under Varnas on the Template:Hinduism and only 4 castes? Is it 4 castes plus an outcaste or is it 5 castes. The article does not make it very clear. Many thanks. --Hari Singh 00:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Er, actually, I believe that there are thousands of castes in INDIAN society (Hindu, Muslim). There are 5 4 VARNAS (choices). The outcastes were regarded as a Varna correction outcastes were not Varnas, just not a caste either. However, I believe the article reflects that as an exception. Hkelkar 00:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manu Smriti

  • The Header of this section read: This text is not found in Manu Smrithi: Request the author to remove this.
  • The Header was correct, The Manu Smriti XII v. 4 doesn't state what was quoted here in this article (below). In fact this quote can't be found in Chapter XII at all. I would be sincerly interested in knowing where this quote is found, perhaps the original author or another editor could let me know.

If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces." (Manu Smriti XII. 4)

  • With the erroneous quote removed the remaining portion (below) of this section doesn't relate to anything, ie; it isn't in stark contrast to anything as it states. Instead of removing this entire portion, which I feel at this point would be much too harsh, I've opted to make it invisible so that perhaps the original author or another editor can make it relevant or can choose to delete it altogether.

A stark contrast to this is a mantra from the White Yajur Veda itself:

यथेमां वाचं कल्याणीमावदानि जनेभ्यः । ब्रह्मराजन्याभ्याँ शूद्राय चार्याय च स्वाय चारणाय । प्रियो देवानां दक्षिणायै दातुरिह भूयासमयं मे कामः समृध्यतामुप मादो नमतु ॥ (White Yajur Veda 26.2) "I do hereby address this salutary (Vedic) speech for the benefit of humanity – for the Brahmanas, the Kshatriyas, the Shudras, the Vaishas, the kinsfolk and the men of lowest position in society. May I be dear to the learned in this world."

  • The Manu Smriti XII v. 4 actually states the following:

Know that the mind is the instigator here below, even to that (action) which is connected with the body, (and) which is of three kinds, has three locations, and falls under ten heads.

LeMaster 01:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

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