Talk:Vareniki

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[edit] Moving to Vareniki

Given that the dish itself is always referred to using the plural Vareniki, I see no problem moving the article to that location (with a redirect here). -- Cyrius | Talk 06:07, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree. I made the edits after VfD discussion and to conform to general Wikipedia policy... but it frankly sounds weird this way. —Tkinias 15:59, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Moved. Changed the affected text back as well. -- Cyrius | Talk 18:44, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

Although I screwed up the edit summary on Vareniki. D'oh -- Cyrius | Talk 18:46, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

Looks good, Cyrius! —Tkinias 19:29, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] English usage

American Heritage Dictionary says that pierogi is the proper singular and a proper plural for that word in English. The situation is the same for ravioli. I'd imagine that Vereniki would be similar. -- Cyrius | Talk 16:17, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

Ugh. I can't stand American Heritage, personally—they are way too flexible in canonizing bad usage IMHO. Give them two years and they'll list "kewl" as an acceptable alternative spelling for cool. But anyway, the solution isn't to treat it as a singular noun, because that gives us a monstrosity like "A vareniki is..." It would be far better simply to move it back to plural and just not make apologies. The worst possible case, though, would be using the plurals as singulars (i.e., with singular verbs or indefinite articles), because whatever AH says, it looks illiterate.

OED, BTW, gives ravioli properly as an English plural noun with no singular; they do not consider pierogi a naturalized word at all yet. —Tkinias 17:04, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wh4t d00 j00 meen teh 'kewl' isnt acc3ptiblee?

Well, I don't have an OED lying around, so I just used dictionary.com. My point that the article should go at Vareniki still stands. -- Cyrius | Talk 17:22, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

I don't have an OED lying around either, but my university subscribes to the on-line edition. Anyway, why don't you just go ahead and move Vareniki and Sirniki back to the plurals... I'll just sit here and be l33t ;) —Tkinias 18:30, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary (2nd ed.) has the main headword perogy, listing both Polish and Ukrainian in the etymology:

• per·ogy /pəˈroːgi/ noun (pl. -ogies) (also per·ogie, per·ogi, pier·ogi, pir·ogi, pyr·ogy, pyr·ohy /piˈroːhi/) N Amer. . . .

It also has the following headwords:

• pi·roshki—[listing both piroshki and piroshkis for plural, Russian etymology. —MZ]
• var·eny·ky . . . plural noun N Amer.—[uses the word "perogies" as an explanatory synonym, Ukrainian etymology —MZ]
• ku·basa . . . noun Cdn (Alta.) . . . [corruption of Ukrainian kovbasa, 'sausage']
• kubie . . . noun Cdn (Alta.) . . . [abbreviation of KUBASA]
• kubie burger . . . noun Cdn (Alta.) . . .

—Michael Z. 2006-01-20 02:00 Z

[edit] Ukrainian name for a Ukrainian dish

Are varenyky/vareniki Ukrainian enough to move the article to "varenyky", and use primarily Ukrainian words in the place of Russian in the article? —Michael Z. 2006-01-20 02:17 Z

Oh, they are Ukrainian enough, but to figure out which spelling has more rights to serve as a title would require adding an additional question to a population census :). I honestly don't know how to handle this. Two entries would be silly indeed, and using one as primary (no matter which) is unfair to another country. If it helps (probably not), I didn't know Ukrainians claim varen[yi]ki as their national dish until I was 18. Tells something about how common they are in Russia.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 03:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)