Talk:Vanilla Ninja

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Former featured article Vanilla Ninja is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article Milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 1, 2005.

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[edit] Article

I've completely written this. I think its fairly complete. Hedley 19:21, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review

This article was on peer review from the 1st to 4th of June, 2005. The review can be seen at Wikipedia:Peer review/Vanilla Ninja. Hedley 23:54, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Main Page

In about 50 minutes time this article will be on the main page. Hedley 30 June 2005 23:10 (UTC)

[edit] Misc. Talk

That band sounds like it's name is from vanilla ice's song.. GO NINJA GO NINJA GO! ::Cyberman starts to breakdance:: --Cyberman 1 July 2005 00:03 (UTC)

LMAO!!! XDXD --Thorns Among Our Leaves 1 July 2005 00:52 (UTC)


I have forgotten my Wikipedia rules for editing, I apologise, but I contend that this article is by definition POV or even worse is simply an exercise to see if it can be done ie. get your article on the front page of wikipedia. By definition, because, the article appears in the year they have had the pinnacle of their careers ie. competing in the Eurovision Song Contest. Had the article been one or two or more years later I would not be writing now. Contrast this article with that of Johnny Logan who won the thing two times and see if my challenge of POV is not fair.

Cyberman is a nay nay

[edit] is or are

I'm always confused about this - Vanilla Ninja is... or Vanilla Ninja are..? I'd say 'are', because we are referring to the band members. I don't know.. If they were called Vanilla Ninjas, it would def be are.

This is an American/UK English thing (see elsewhere in Wikipedia). I think it goes like: UK say "the Team are X, Y and Z" American "the Team is X, Y and Z". Your choice.

Since it's a Germanic language we're questioning, maybe the German itself will help. In German the Team (die Mannschaft) is in the singular and carries the singular verbal conjugation (die Mannschaft ist), whereas the Teams (die Mannschaften) would carry plural conjugation (die Mannschaften sind). I'm afraid for once the Americans might be right.Billy P 1 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)
Why are we looking at the German usage exactly? Vanilla ninja are/is popular in a lot of German-speaking countries, true, but this is an Estonian band we are talking about. Estonian is not Germanic—it's not even Indo-European—and if I'm guessing correctly, the conjugation for "to be" is the same for "it is" and "they are" (on for both). And it is not clear why we're looking at non-English usage in an English-language Wikipedia in the first place. --Iceager 09:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Just to clarify for those at home, is and are are based on numbers, as in, how many "objects" you're talking about. For example, let's say we're talking about....chairs. If there is one chair, you would say "That chair is...." However, if there are many chairs, you would say "Those chairs are..." This particular instance, however, is special. You see, ninja is a Japanese word, and Japanese has no plural form. The word "ninja" is used to represent both one and many ninja, and it has always been my feeling that this carries over when porting words from language to language. So you would say "Look at that ninja!" or "Look at those ninja!" as opposed to "Look at those ninjas!" That said, the band's name itself is not a viable source for validation of it...plurality? Whatever. Anyway, my point is that, due to the ambiguous nature of the band's name, that we treat it as a singular, as though we were reffering to the ONE group itself, the single entity composed of the many band members, as opposed to the band members individually (isn't that why they give themselves a group name, anyway?) IE: We would say "Vanilla Ninja is a good band." as opposed to "Vanilla Ninja are a good band." (Now, if there were a preceeding "The" (ie the band's name was "The Vanilla Ninja" then that would be another story alltogether...) SuperKawaiiNeko 13:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Featured despite objections?

Why did this article reach featured status despite the fact that two seemingly valid objections were left unresolved? The article still has very little info on the actual music of the band and the music video section is hogging a substantial part of the article despite being quite questionable in its interiety.

Both these things seem to me as being very easy to amend, so I'm even more surprised that they were disregarded from. Could someone explain this?

Peter Isotalo July 1, 2005 11:39 (UTC)

  • There is information on the music of the band, I think. It states the genre, their influences, and the differences in sound for each released song. I think thats sufficient. As for hogging part of an article with a section - Its detail, and thats why people use sources such as Wikipedia. Hedley 1 July 2005 17:29 (UTC)

[edit] Query regarding Featured Article Candidacy

Hi, Whilst I personally had little knowledge of Vanilla Ninja before reading this article, and thus cannot comment on their musical aptitude, I would like to know why articles about well-known bands such as the Red Hot Chilli Peppers are seemingly overlooked for candidacy? The reason I quote the RHCP article is because it exemplifies many of the required principles of FA candidates - for example in-depth and concise, stability, citation, well-licensed images. It just seems that articles about well-known bands, individuals or entities are overlooked in favour of articles like this, even when they meet all the requirements. I for one was astonished to see the excellent Titanic article on the main page when it had been preceded by the likes of "Our Gang" and "Military History of Puerto Rico" - no disrespect is intended to the authors of these articles. Is there an offical channel where I can query this issue?

Also, I agree with Peter, there should be unanimous support for a Featured Article on the voting page before it is thrust on to the main page. Clearly this wasn't the case here,as there were at least two valid objections, and I'm somewhat dismayed. Again, I'd like to know if there's an official channel where I can query these issues? Thank you. Rdysn5 July 1, 2005 12:01 (UTC)

  • Why shouldn't an article on an 'obscure' band be featured? This article tackles systematic bias heavily. Hedley 1 July 2005 17:30 (UTC)

I like this article, it's different from the mainstream Western bands you hear about all the time. And it's a well writen article. --LeoTheLion 1 July 2005 17:44 (UTC)

Hedley, if you tried to actually amend our quite easily amendable objections instead of arguing against them, I think the article would be a lot better. It's also somewhat disrespectful to simply ignore almost everything Rdysn has to say on FAs by making it seem as if he wants to ban obscure topics from being FAs. I've noticed myself that people have a tendency to concentrate way too much on various sub-articles instead of writing on the far more important general topic articles. That, for example, military history of Puerto Rico is favored over the general history of Puerto Rico is not good in the long run as I see it.
Peter Isotalo July 2, 2005 09:28 (UTC)

[edit] National Socialism

I don't see it! What does this article have to do with National Socialism? Wjbean 1 July 2005 13:33 (UTC)

I think it's a case of vandalism, after being featured on the front page. At least.. that's what I sincerely hope. -- Harry 1 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)

[edit] Language

This article suffers a defect. It should be made clear very early on in the article what language the girls sing in. Although the song and album titles are in English, you still need to specify clearly that they sing in English, and that these song titles aren't translations.

  • Paragraph 3 of section 1 states the language. Hedley 1 July 2005 17:44 (UTC)

Paragraph 4 of section 1 finally gives this information. It's very salient info and it needs to be in the introduction, not buried in the main body. I couldn't readily determine the langauge. I had to go looking for it.

  • It now notes the debut album's language in the opening. Hedley 1 July 2005 19:50 (UTC)

[edit] Spit & Polish

The article as it currently stands has a bunch of typos (similiar, Apparantely, inparticularly); inconsistent use of capitalization (Gothic vs. gothic); missing apostrophes (the groups first slow, soft); wording fumbles (bought many copies of were the groups; The video begun). At the very least, someone should run a spellcheck on it. (Probably not the time now, with the current flurry of edits/vandalism. But at some point.) –Hajor 1 July 2005 15:23 (UTC)

[edit] Phwoar!

no really....PHWOAR!

[edit] References

Hello there, I just made a few edits to this article, but I have a few questions I'd like addressed. Mostly, I'm very curious as to where the information in this article comes from since the reference section is so poor. This article is full of information, but a lot of it is not mentioned at all in the sources. Where is it from? Páll 09:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Intro DOBs

I think the intro is a little difficult to read given the inclusion of the dates of birth. I think it might be better to place them into a section later on, so that the lead paragraph flows better. violet/riga (t) 14:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kohuke

Hajor made an edit, with the summary containing the question "what is a kohuke?". While this is quite not the right talk page for this, it is the only one I can think of (since it's the only article linking to kohuke). Basically, kohuke is a sweet made from cottage cheese (that's what a dictionary says the Estonian word kohupiim is in English). I don't know if there's an English equivalent to it or not. PeepP 22:22, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. –Hajor 22:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Aug 4 2005----

According to the producers information - Kohuke is actually a cheese curd snack. Latvian producers call ir "Curd snack" http://www.piens.lv/eproducts_curdsnacks.html Estonians - "Cheese curd" http://www.tpt.ee/?structure=005&language=EN&rnd=18578

It's also popular in Lithuania. I have no information about it's popularity in countries outside Baltic states, however I would be suprised if it was completly unknown. And it's not made of cottage cheese (which is a specific form of curd. All cottage cheese is curd, but not all curd is cottage cheese). This misunderstanding comes from deficient, outdated english-estonian dictionary (it says "cottage cheese" where it should say "curd"). The most popular Latvian-English dictionary has been updated to correct this mistake - however maybe Estonian-English is not.

  • There's a short stub now at kohuke, mainly just to get rid of the red link in the intro to this article. Hedley 20:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] plagiarism

I really think there should be a mention about how the video for Cool Vibes actually comprised of modified footage of the video for Mindmachine by German cult-band Deine Lakaien.

check it out here: [1]--83.118.141.133 13:47, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Music Project evaluation

Vanilla Ninja has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Lead - Comprehensiveness - Pictures - Audio - References - Discography
The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.
  • Lead: Last two paragraphs should probably be merged and expanded a bit
  • Comprehensiveness: Maybe a section on style, critical reception, influences, media exposure
  • Pictures: Needs fair use rationales
  • Audio: ought to be uploaded, and use an appropriate template
  • References: Need to be formatted, inline citations, try to add print/scholarly sources
  • Discography: Consider combining subsections, having 3 chart positions is nice, but consider a table (why no Estonian charts?)
  • Consider making bulk of the article a subsection of "history"

[edit] Response to evaluation and comments

Thanks for the quick evaluation that I asked for.

Lead: I've moved the final sentence to a more appropriate position; I don't think there's much I can expand upon right now, though

Comprehensiveness: Possibly, but not being in Germany or Estonia I can't really do anything on this

Pictures: "Fair use rationales"? I think the claims for fair use seem pretty reasonable

Audio: I don't think we can upload it; It's copyrighted and the only reason it's linked is because the site being linked to has permission

References: I think the references are pretty good as is; Inline citations aren't mandatory, and a lot of the references are in German so it's not a feasible option

Discography: The Estonian charts aren't archived online, and until Hitparade.ch expand a bit further I can't see them being anytime soon; Thus I can't locate the positions —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esteffect (talk • contribs).

The pictures need fair use rationales. Please read Wikipedia:Image_description_page#Fair_use_rationale for more information. Inline citations are now a requirement for featured articles. The standards has changed since the article was promoted. If this doesn't get fixed within reasonable time, the article may again be put up for FA removal. --Maitch 12:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Four members

No, there's three. Triinu left in 2005. Esteffect 22:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image problems

All images in this article lack fair use rationales, which are required per Wikipedia:Fair use. Most of them also lack copyright information and sources. Given that this is a featured article, this should be taken care of as soon as possible. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 18:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I just found several images from commons:Vanilla Ninja. I think that these should be apt replacements. I just wonder who would dare to do the job.
-Mardus 05:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

  • Swiss Broadcasting Corporation website: Eurovision sub-site ([2]) — This link is down for quite some time now; replaced with current one, also with better style.

-Mardus 04:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FARC

Someone post it there please. As the only person who gives a shit about this article, to be told that I have to use a certain style of referencing pisses me off. I don't intend to update this, and while I appreciate Mardus' efforts, quit while your ahead because this article will die through being out of date anyway.

I am no longer a regular member of Wikipedia. Thanks. Esteffect 12:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

That certain style of referencing is important with regards to encyclopedic content. It's not obligatory by any means and I think in the case of this article, where specific references are few and far between, their correct style should be applied only where possible. — For example, in the Baltic Times reference case, where there was a minor citation in this article, which clearly referred to the Baltic Times writeup, so a footnote and its respective endnote applied better, therefore it now looks more correct and invalidates the use of two external links.
You don't have to use that style, but here in Wikipedia, it is very likely that eventually someone is going to fix that anyway. A reference is a reference, when it points to something specific, otherwise it's just an external link.
Also, if you look at the article's history page, people have consistently updated it with bits and pieces from here and there, so the probability of the article "dying" is small. In my case, I just want the article to look more professional and encyclopedic, never mind that it has outdated content: There will always be someone who is interested enough to add more information to it.
Please expand on what FARC means to you.
I do feel sorry that you feel needlessly angry, because you felt that someone told you that you have to use a certain style of referencing. (Before you announced your feelings of anger here in Talk, then if anyone here in Wikipedia told you this — "You have to use only a certain style of referencing!", then please point me to that place, so that I could also see who it was that told you so.)
-Mardus 17:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
See Maitch's post above for me being told it's necessary for FAs. To be a honest, I'm far from a new user, and I wrote this article from a stub to a featured article. The fact there's never been a single major contribution by another user tells me that this won't survive. I've lost my interest in the "Wiki way", and namely I've begun to feel that I want credit for my contributions. That doesn't fit well with Wikipedia and this article won't find a good enough, interested contributor to maintain it. Esteffect 19:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not very knowledgable in unknown acronyms, therefore I don't use them just as liberally when unreferenced.
What made you be disillusioned in the wiki way?
If you want credit for something, but wish your work to be available for free, you could use any of the Creative Commons licenses, then create your own blog and attribute your desired license to your work. See creativecommons.org/text for more.
-Mardus 04:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
So, FARC stands for Featured Article?
-Mardus 04:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Nope. It stands for featured article removal candidate. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 09:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Just that the acronym explanation to this is only here and since almost two hours ago, to boot.
-Mardus 11:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I felt my work wasn't being appreciated anymore, and that and other things made it no longer worthwhile. And FARC is the former name for Featured Article Review - I still call it FARC, I didn't know the name was changed until I listed this there. Esteffect 12:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The article is good material and it was up to the standards of FA at the time, but it will not pass today, because the standards have changed. It is very important to have fair use rationales for the images and inline references are now a requirement. I do not wish to nominate this for removal. That is why I'm making you aware of this, so the article again could get up to FA standard. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but we have to deal with the article and not the editor. --Maitch 22:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I've already nominated it for removal some time ago. I'm strongly opposed to this inline requirement crap that got brought in. Great way to make editing completely boring. Esteffect 12:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed all but one of the "fair use" images per the WP:FAR discussion. I left the one in that seemed particularly important to demonstrate an argument being made. Jkelly 04:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
There goes any thin, thin hope of my restoring this. I bet this article dies miserably. Esteffect 16:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VN-Linn fanclub

It is not an official fanclub, nor is approved by the Ninjas. A link to its homepage and forum would be enough. No need for a section about it. It sounds more like an advertisement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.237.158.71 (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

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