Wikipedia talk:Userboxes/Location/United Kingdom

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Contents 1 cornwall 2 Userbox format 3 Location / Nationality 3.1 Start made 3.2 GSD2000 3.3 From County

[edit] cornwall

It's an English county. Its not a matter of opinion, its fact - "Cornwall (Cornish: Kernow) is a county on England's south west peninsula that lies to the west of the River Tamar". It should be in the England section. Why isn't it? - • Dussst • ^{T | C} 21:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Guilty as charged, M'lud :-) --Portnadler 15:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox format

I've altered the templates for those userboxes listed on this page to bring their style in line with the standard format for such things. -- Scjessey 19:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location / Nationality

Leading on from a debate at Template talk:User Scotland, I checked this page to see how other UK userboxes were formatted and there seems to be some contradictory categories and text being included, not to mention confusion regarding how they are grouped. This is a location page, so it makes sense to include boxes such as {{User Northumberland}} which state, "This user lives in Northumberland" and {{User Yorkshire}} which include the category, Cat:Wikipedians in Yorkshire.

The problem is, the majority of other userboxes on this page state, "This user comes from Example." Though it is far from unknown for people to use this phrase with regards to where they live, it is more correct for them to use it with regards to where they originally come from, for example, I live in Derby, England, but come from Paisley, Scotland. I am Scottish; I come from Scotland. Thus use of the phrase, "comes from" to denote location seems to be a bad choice.

As well as this, on some userbox templates such as {{User England}}, the phrase, "comes from" is accompanied by Cat:English Wikipedians. These two go hand in hand, but what is someone who lives in England but is not English supposed to use?

Leading on from a suggestion by MartinRe at Template talk:User Scotland, I would suggest the following changes.

• The first section of this page is renamed "Countries" over "Citizenship." Templates about citizenship or nationality do not belong on a page created to group location userboxes.
• All the templates along the lines of {{User Country}} or {{User County}} are modified to read, "This user lives in Example." These templates also have their categories changed where applicable. For example, {{User England}} would include Cat:Wikipedians in England rather than Cat:English Wikipedians.

With that done, the reformatting moves to Wikipedia:Userboxes/Life#Ancestry_and_ethnicity where boxes such as {{User Scottish}} are included (though it might be worthwhile creating an individual page for such boxes. With templates such as "User Scottish," the aim should be to indicate nationality over location. "User Scottish" for example, would either state "This user comes from Scotland," or "This user is Scottish," and include Cat:Scottish Wikipedians. When this is accomplished, someone such as I will be able to have both {{User Scottish}} and {{User England}} displayed on their userpage with no apparent contradiction either in type, or categorisation and it will of course be the same for other combinations. Any thoughts? - Hayter 17:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've no problem with replacing location text with "lives in" to remove any ambiguity. I agree it would be nice to have consistantcy, as it seems which interpretation "User Country" was chosen dependsed on who created it originally, and User English is an odd one too! Good luck! MartinRe 18:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Agree. I think the problem arose from the fact that some people created userboxes with no thought to consistancy and standardisation, nor to the situations Hayter mentioned above. My comment from the User Scotland discussion page:

I agree Hayter - there needs to be some kind of logical structure to these things. My proposal is that all the 'Location' boxes reflect just that, and the text should therefore be changed to "lives in". All the categories should also direct to "Wikipedians in <country>". Likewise, all ethnicity (and nationality can be considered ethnicity I should think) userboxes should also reflect this. Therefore we should end up with an overlapping, but not identical, number of categories with "User is <ethnicity/nationality" which all point to "<national/ethnic description> Wikipedians" (eg: "English Wikipedians"). If you agree with this idea, let me know. It might mean some work, but Im prepared to help so that they're sorted out once and for all. --Mal 19:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:User_Scotland" --Mal 20:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Agree (with "lives in" and two cats as above) Anyone have any plans on correcting the rest of the europe ones? Also, what is the best way of doing this, to ease the transaction for users who have put the user box there assuming it meant something different? Just update the template? Tell everyone who has it about the change? Subst the template on the their user pages first? It's a tricky one, no doubt, best of luck with it MartinRe 20:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - there might be some resistance. Hopefully if we point them to this discussion, they'll understand. I don't see myself changing every individual users' pages, but perhaps leaving a note pointing here for each of the userboxes that need changed would be polite? --Mal 21:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Agree with RESERVATIONS - You would have to inform the users before making sweeping changes, otherwise thousands of users could be misrepresented. People don't check their user pages all the time. -- Scjessey 19:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• Disagree - I do not think it is right to change the semantics of the user box once it has reached a certain level of use. Create a new one if you don't like the current wording. I also disagree with the voting process that has gone on here - totally undemocratic. The percentage of Wikipedians making use of this userbox but who have voted is in the single digits and in no way is a representative sample. To know to vote you have to be watching this talk page. Gsd2000 20:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Can we agree on a proper renaming for the current template User England (leaving a bold notification on the page) and go about making the changes..? --Mal 23:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Start made

I've altered the country ones - decided to leave the rest for now so if there's any initial 'backlash' it's not regarding fifty different templates. I've not directly informed anyone who uses the templates; it just seems like too big a job to be done manually, and I know nothing about the various bots that are used on WP. - Hayter 16:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

This is all very well, but your actions are effectively miscategorizing hundreds of natives that no longer live in their country of origin. You should not make these kinds of wholesale and meaningful changes to templates until there has been some discussion on their respective talk pages. -- Scjessey 19:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• I've moved GSD's comments down the page for clarity's sake.

There's no guarantee that those who use the templates actually watch the template space. I think I use about 20 userboxes, but I only watch less than half of them. If I knew of a fast way to inform people of this, I would but as I don't, I feel that this page, due to its nature is the best place to discuss it and that's why I've included a link in the edit summaries of the articles I've changed. Your particular situation outlined on my talk page, would suggest that upon completion of this project, {{User English}} would be best for you (though not now, because it has something else on it). You mention mass miscatergorisation yourself - that's what's brought this on, as outlined above. At one point, {{User Scotland}} held the text "[is] Scottish" but the category, "Wikipedians in Scotland." If {{User England}} is to remain the way you've reverted it, then what should people who live in England but are not English do? Of course changes such as this will cause temporary confusion, but in the long run I firmly believe it's the best thing to do. I am not of course, the arbitrator of what is good however, and that's why I started this discussion over a week before making any changes. Having exactly the same debate on each individual template space would be fruitless. - Hayter 19:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to do this, you must make appropriate alternatives beforehand. For example, the {{User England}} code could be transferred to {{User English Native}}, or something similar. Userboxes were created by individuals to do whatever they desired. They are not required to follow some sort of categorization convention, even if it is thought best. Therefore, every effort must be made to inform affected users before changes are made, and only when suitable alternatives are available. I agree that we are talking about a potentially Herculian task, but the onus should not be placed on the users who may not even notice they are being miscategorized, and therefore misrepresented. How would you like it if your Trekkie/Trekker userbox template were to suddenly be changed to a Warsie template, and that went unnoticed for a time? Personally, I'd be mortified! -- Scjessey 19:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Scjessey it appears concensus has been reached regarding this matter. Hayter therefore changed the categories and text in accordance with what had been agreed.

The proposal makes perfect sense, and I suspect you reverted this userbox back because you don't happen to agree with the concensus or the logic of it. Put it like this: "England" refers to England, but not necessarily to "English". The userbox "User England" only denotes a geographical location - not an ethnicity. "English" is the adjective used to describe ethnicity. Therefore, the category (which already exists) "Wikipedians in England" would be suited to this userbox, and the category (which also already exists) "English Wikipedians", is ideally matched to a userbox "User English". I assume a userbox "User English" exists. If not, I would suggest that you create one for use in your user page.

• User England - lives in England, and should be listed in the category "Wikipedians in England"
• User English - user is English, and should be listed in the category "English Wikipedians"

Do you see the logic in this? --Mal 19:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I do see the logic in this, but unfortunately it won't work. For one thing, {{User English}} is already in use for an entirely different reason. Furthermore, how can you say a consensus has been reached when there have only been TWO agreements to the proposal. Changes like this can potentially affect thousands of users. -- Scjessey 19:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Hundreds. Maybe. The country userboxes are used by roughly 80 people. I don't imagine the county ones being used by a great deal more. - Hayter 19:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless Scjessey, concensus was reached. The discussion was left on the relevant page for quite some time. I do know that you had been watching the userbox, due to my attempts at standardising them previous, and your subsequent reverts. Note that I haven't personally changed your reverts on this occassion for precisely the reason you indicated: that there were only three or four people who gave their opinions. --Mal 23:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I've now moved the userbox that was previously on {{User English}} to {{User Imperial}} (and changed the pages of those who linked to it). {{User English}} now reflects nationality and as things stand, is exactly the same in content as {{User England}}. I'm also going to add a link to this discussion on the individual country template talkspaces. - Hayter 20:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

You've done it again! "English" measurements are not the same as "Imperial" measurements. For example, an "English Gallon" is less than an "Imperial Gallon". You cannot just make arbitrary changes without first considering the full implication of what you are doing. I know you mean well, but you are going about this in the wrong way. -- Scjessey 21:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I would propose that the userbox for measurements be changed to "English measurements", and the "User England" box be used for the purpose described above. I agree with Scjessey that you have looked before you've leapt in this case Hayter. We all do it though. --Mal 23:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If I've moved in error then I of course apologise. Checking the template before I moved it however, the link on it directed to Imperial unit. The rename seemed obvious. - Hayter 16:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GSD2000

Hayter, this is one such (annoyed) user who is now miscategorized. You should have created new userboxes instead of changing existing ones. Wikipedians don't add userboxes to their pages and expect the description to be significantly changed from under their feet. Gsd2000 01:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The United Kingdom userbox was out of sync with every other country's user box, which say "this user comes from". A new userbox should be created for "lives in the United Kingdom". I reverted the UK one, mainly out of annoyance that a handful of users had a vote and thought better to change it. What about all the other users like me who didn't have this on their watchlist? Gsd2000 00:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Gsd2000, what I have done to the templates is in line with the consensus of those who have posted here. I have included a link to this discussion in every edit summary, posted bold notices on the concerning talk pages and when I moved one template, I also edited the pages of those users who displayed it so they would not be associated with the wrong group. More than this however, what I have done is in line with WP:UB, which aims to create a standard for all userboxes, which includes naming conventions. If there is a consensus against this, then that's one thing, but given this discussion and the attempt to find the best solution, for you to revert the changes in opposition to those others who have spoken on the issue is wrong. - Hayter 10:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You didn't edit my page. I only discovered this after I happened to check my user page. Four votes is not a consensus, and I see that at least one user, Scjessey, agrees with me. I am seriously annoyed at this, and at you. If anything you have gone against what WP:UB says because every other country user box outside the British ones is different. {{User France}} {{User Canada}} {{User Germany}} {{User United Kingdom}}. The least you can do is be polite and point me in the direction of a "comes from the United Kingdom" userbox. As Scjessey says below, "every effort must be made to inform affected users before changes are made, and only when suitable alternatives are available". I find your meddling and the manner in which you have gone about this totally unwelcome. Gsd2000 12:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I never claimed to have edited your page. I have not proposed that four votes represent the united wish of those using the boxes, simply that the stated consensus here agrees with the proposal. Interest, disagreement and perhaps confusion can be expected with something such as this, but your stated "serious annoyance" is either an exaggeration or an indicator that you're taking this far too seriously or failing to understand the proposal's nature. No one here is saying you cannot have an accurate userbox on your page, but for future simplicity, you should change two of the words you type to get it to appear. If you disagree with this in theory beyond the irritance of having to change something then that's fine, everyone here respects your right to do so. But to say you're seriously annoyed about this... or even me personally sounds ridiculous and isn't helped by the use of phrases such as "meddling." These changes weren't made on a personal whim and were openly discussed in the most logical place weeks before any changes took place. Clearly, they're still being discussed - this isn't an underhand ploy to take userboxes away from some people and if it turns out that a majority are against the idea then they'll of course be reverted. I can understand your interest in this proposal but there's no need for hyperbole or insults on your part. - Hayter 16:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You said, and I quote, "I also edited the pages of those users who displayed it so they would not be associated with the wrong group". You didn't edit mine! I discovered that it had changed by chance. Changing the semantics of a userbox is wrong. It's not like editing an article - you are changing a statement that a Wikipedian has made about themselves on their user page. My irritation purely stems from the fact that I had a factually incorrect userbox on my page for a while and I was unaware of this, then I discover that an underwhelming four - four! - Wikipedians had voted to make this change on behalf of several hundred users. It may be a small issue to you, but there is a point of principle here. It's like going into someone's house and swapping their "Tony Welmington, Labour" window poster for "Margeret Biggins, Conservative". Gsd2000 19:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And as an FYI for anyone else reading, Template talk:User United Kingdom#Content Change. - Hayter 18:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Hayter: you need to consult WP:WIN#Wikipedia is not a democracy. Just because three people say one thing, and one says another, that doesn't constitute a binding consensus. I can't really believe that I'm getting into an argument over user boxes - it's not very encyclopaedic - but it seems clear to me that once a thing has been in place for 3 months, and numerous people have added it to their pages, it becomes vandalistic to start altering it. Why not create a new template if you want one? I don't see the issue with that. — SteveRwanda 06:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

This page shows a stated consensus, which is all I've claimed to work from. Neither you nor I can guess the thoughts of those who haven't said anything, so logically the option is to go with those who have spoken. Their thoughts are above. - Hayter 13:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You ignored the reservations of the "Agree with RESERVATIONS" vote. There is now my vote to disagree. SteveRwanda disagrees. That leaves 3 votes for, 1 vote for with reservations, and 2 against. This is no longer a consensus. The status quo ante bellum should prevail. Gsd2000 14:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I have not ignored anything, in fact I have read this entire conversation a number of times to confirm my thoughts are correct on this. Scjessey's reservation is about notification. Short of individually noting each of the hundreds of people that use these templates, I have made every effort to notify people of this proposal, including links in my edit summaries and notices on the talk pages. It may be that Scjessey feels this is not enough and I can understand that point of view, even if I disagree with it, but I have not ignored his comments, and as it stands, he is still on record as agreeing. I'm better at English than maths, but I'm fairly sure that's a 2:1 ratio in favour of the proposal. - Hayter 13:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From County

Irritatingly, I've only just considered something regarding the counties. Whilst England>English, Wales>Welsh etc. all work fine and are good for seperating categories, how do you apply that to counties? I'm sure some have local nicknames but nothing so obvious as the above. As such, I still think {{User County}} templates should indicate location rather than "coming from," and so if a person wants to indicate for example, that they originally come from Yorkshire, but no longer reside there, they would use something akin to {{User from Yorkshire}} or {{User Yorkshire born)). I feel now is the best time to work out a consensus for such templates so you don't have endless variations springing up in future for what are similar templates e.g. {{User from Derby}}, {{User of Leeds descent)), {{User Portsmouth original}}. I think my vote would go with {{User from County}}.

Regarding notification for new users wishing to use one, a note on the page similar to that found at {{User NI}} should suffice, with something akin to, "This template is designed to reflect those living in County. Users originally from County but no longer residing there should see {{User from County}}." - Hayter 16:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)