Talk:Urartu

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[edit] What exactly is the "Proto-Iberian world"?

--Yak 22:14, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

I have tried to expand this page based on info from WWW. I cannot tell whether the paragraph on linguistic affiliation makes sense. Anyway, further details should go to the Urartian language page.
Jorge Stolfi 04:32, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What is meant by "Urartu is Ibero-Caucasian"?
As far as I know, Ibero-Caucasian is just a theory that the three or four language families that are presently spoken only in the Caucasus (South, Northwest, Northeast, North-central) have a common origin. However, at present there seems to be no linguistic evidence that all four families are related; not even the most ardent "lumpers" have claimed a connection between South and North Caucasian. In fact it seems that some people claim to see a connection between NW Caucasian and Indo-European, back to 10,000 years — and they are having trouble showing it. So the connection between N and S Caucasian, if it exists, must therefore be even more remote than that.
So if there is significant affinity between Urartian and any of those four Caucasian families, it can be with at most one of them, and this article should say which one. The "Ibero-Caucasian" or "Proto-Caucasian" theory is best left as a speculative section in the Caucasian languages page, until someone manages to convince enough linguists that it is real.
All the best,
Jorge Stolfi 05:08, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Urartuan is a later form of Hurrian. The Hurro-Urartuan languages were then found to have a similarity with Lezgian/Avar/Dagastani which is usually called North East Caucasian. However it was regognised as wrong to classify Hurro-Urartuan as North-East Caucasian so the new term Alarodian was introduced.

Later this family was found to be related to Vaynakh/Nakh languages sometimes called North-Central Caucasian.

Meanwhile on the western slopes of the mountains Circassian (West Caucasian) was found to be related to Hattic. Again it is strange to classify Hattic as Northwest caucasian when the "Hattians" were nowhere near NWC. Hetto-Iberian was proposed first but the extension of the term Alarodian to include the new Hatto-Circassian family was also suggested on the basis of certain similarities.

Finally the term Hetto-Iberian was applied for all 5 language groups. Georgian linguists objected to being excluded from the Hetto-Iberian family since they claim transcaucasian Iberia as a Georgian kingdom not Circassian. They proposed a new much larger super family called Proto-Iberian which also included Basque, Etruscan and Pelasgs. However the existence of such a super family is not very well attested at all as of present.

Unfortunately a little Georgian politics has affected all such related pages and has to be filtered out carefully so as not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.Zestauferov 12:12, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] nations

is nothing too far-fetched for nationalist disputes?? Anyway, don't say "Modern Armenians are the descendants of the Urartuians.", say, "according to Arthur Peabody in Armenians — why they rock (de Gruyter, 1982), ethnic Armenians are descended from the Urartian population". Replacing my made up one with a genuine reference, of course. dab (ᛏ) 18:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Rovoam has gone beyond the pale and is reverting simply to make some kind of point [1]. Because he is virtually unblockable and rather obsessive, I have protected this article and quite a few others. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

fine, but since he is as persistent as his nemesis, will this mean all Turkey-related articles will remain protected indefinitely? This is not a solution. Arbcom him, ban him, rollback him, he has left the arena of fair-although-biased editing and may be treated as a vandal. dab (ᛏ) 19:19, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Dab, I absolutely agree with you on the point that Rovoam should be banned from editing Wikipedia and his account should be closed indefinitely. In fact, I was arguing about this for long time now. However, this would not be the solution. I said before and I repeat it here too: the only way to deal with this person is for other editors to unite and withstand al his spurious edits and vandalisms. Only after seeing the determination of Wikipedia editors will he realize the whole senselessness of his actions and will retreat.

On the other hand, realistically, the process of banning this "user" from Wikipedia would require decision by ArbCom, i.e. a long and slow process. Therefore, I think, Tony's protection of these pages was the only right option at the moment.

p.s. Just for records: here's the list of pages protected by Tony, which underwent Rovoam's vandalisms: this page, Caucasian Albania, Artsakh, Arran (Azerbaijan), Azerbaijan, Safavids, Turkey. --Tabib 19:50, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Generally, I would agree with dab that he needs a good arbcomming. This will probably happen. However he probably can't be physically banned, he's too obsessive and has too many IP numbers. I agree with Tabib that a show of unity against his determined abuse would show him that his bread has landed butter-side down. He must be pretty demoralized already; we just have to keep on until he realises he can never win. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:28, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I can't believe we've had to protect the article of an obscure nation that's been gone for close to three millennia. This feels like a new low. Isomorphic 05:03, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

By the way, Rovoam's revert on Kura-Araxes culture was ridiculous; he removed a whole group of edits, only a tiny bit of which was even by Tabib. Most of what he reverted was by me and a third user. He's being spiteful and stupid. Isomorphic 05:32, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I ask for unprotection of this article. There was nothing like an edit war going on, and I don't mind reverting nationalist biases every couple of days. If we keep it protected, how shall it improve? Tabib, I will revert anti-Turkish and pro-Turkish bias alike, I don't care about Turks or Armenians, in relation with this article. The whole thing is just ridiculous. dab (ᛏ) 05:46, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected as requested. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Dab, you're right. I would gladly distance myself from reverts, if I know that someone is there to watch out this person. I thank you all for your principled positions.--Tabib 06:59, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rovoam (72.25.94.178 and 67.4.226.19) edits

I have reverted edits by a well-known troll and vandal User:Rovoam to last version by User:Isomorphic on 00:47 May 17.

The reason why I reverted his edits is because they were spurious.

He first removed a NPOV sentence I have authored and instead, introduced his sentence [2], which was earlier removed by User:Isomorphic stating "rm POV statement; there is no historical consensus for this" [3].

After that his edits were softened a bit by Isomorphic [4]. And then, this person has introduced again the NPOV sentence, written by me which he himself has removed. Thus he tried to present himself as if his edits were valuable to Wikipedia [5].

I believe all users should deal with this person very carefully, because he is rather obsessed and is very good at manipulating with public through various malicious tricks.

In my message above I have named the pages that suffered from Rovoam's vandalisms and were vprotected. Just recently, this person started also to vandalize Nakhichevan and Karabakh and I'm afraid if he persists, these pages will have to be protected as well. --Tabib 12:48, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

enough with the Armenians! just revert them without comment. I would like to see one reference making the claim, and we'll cite that, no problem. Cite sources, Rovoam, don't edit-war. dab (ᛏ) 15:12, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] stubborn reverting

this is silly. Should we ask for protection of the article until anon either cites a source, or grows tired? dab (ᛏ) 08:27, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Dab, unfortunately, one has to understand the motives behind his actions. This person is a fanatic and extreme nationalist. But at this moment, in my personal viewpoint, the reverts, vandalism and spurious edits he is doing is not realy for propagating some idea, it is just the expression of his anger and hatred and willing to take revenge from me for whatever reasons he has in mind. He thinks that by vandalizing various Azerbaijan and Turkey related pages, which I have ever contributed even insignificantly, he will get me down.

I believe, this person will not stop for quite some time, he will be testing the reaction of various editors, will try to confuse them, deceive them, anger them; he will continue blatant and sneaky vandalisms (not obvious at a glance), maybe even will try to justify his actions by his wish to "teach [me] a lesson of tolerance" (?!) ([6]). I am absolutely convinced, the only way to stop this person, is to stand united against him and revert all his edits, without consideration. In the long run I also believe ArbCom should also review its decision on him and completely ban this person from editing Wikipedia. He's been under revert limitation and personal attack parole, but since then he's been systematically violating revert limitation and also on numerous occasions waged personal attacks, and I am not talking about vandalism yet and replacing user pages with other pages from Wikipedia dedicated to various human organs..--Tabib 13:37, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

I thought he was banned? It's just that he is difficult to block, but he has no business editing Wikipedia, obviously, with such an attitude. See WP:AN/I#Rovoam_and_vandalism, it seems people are considering contacting his ISP and/or the authorities now. Maybe some "real life" pressure will make him go away (sheesh. think how easy it would be just to put up your own webpage, with no one interfering). dab (ᛏ) 13:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] protection

ok, I agree with the protection at this point. This was getting a little bit too annoying. I also agree that we are reaching a new low, protecting articles on ancient cultures because of political pov vandalism. dab (ᛏ) 07:16, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Since article is protected, can you post this map into article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Urartu.jpg

User:PANONIAN

Or, alternatively, I would suggest this map, originally from an Armenian source (but the author of the map is a Western scholar, Hewsen). It is even more correct and clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Urartu-Biainili.jpg --Tabib 15:05, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

It's been three weeks; unprotecting. --Golbez 04:53, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] map

I suppose Image:Urartu-Biainili.jpg is fine for the moment, but its copyright status is dubious, we'd need a full reference where it was published, and it needs to be redrawn, preferably in colour, as a GFDL image (see Wikipedia:Maps for that). dab (ᛏ) 12:07, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Initially, I have posted this map during discussions in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh [7]. The map is taken from an Armenian web-site http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/armenians/history_p1.html (scroll down a bit and you'll see a link to map). As you can see in the lower right corner the map has two annotations. First, it has the sign of the web-page ("HyeEtch"), which may imply that the web-site reserves the copyright for this image. But just above this sign there is also a writing "Robert Hewsen", which makes me think that this map is actually scanned from a book by a Western scholar and placed in that web-page. Nevertheless, the actual copyright of that very image may be the web-site. Therefore, I concur with Dab on his point that perhaps some of our editors could prepare exact copy of this map for exclusive use in Wikipedia. --Tabib 09:51, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

exclusive use in Wikipedia — you mean, free use under the GFDL :) if you have time, why don't you try the GIMP, I usually draw my maps with it. dab (ᛏ) 11:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Expand

In the upcoming weeks I'd like to expand this article. I hope to add more information to each of the existing catagories and to make a few new ones as well.--Moosh88 00:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You have expended it for the worst. You and Eupator have introduced POV in this article. Fadix 18:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I haven't had time to make any major edits like I wanted, as I have been very busy. So I don't see what you're talking about.--Moosh88 23:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Urartu was then invaded by Scythians from the north, and finally conquered by the Scythians' associates, the Medes, in 612 BC. Many Urartu ruins show evidence of destruction by fire. Even before the Urartuian empire came to an end, Armenians had been mixing with the Urartuians. But it wasn't until the demise of Urartu, that the Urartuians adopted the Indo-European Armenian language and the Armenians adopted certain aspects of Urartuian social, political and cultural institutions. The Urartuians thus became the Armenians and vice versa. That is POV. Fadix 23:09, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

It certainly overstates what is known. My understanding is that, while Armenians consider Urartu part of their heritage and most academics believe that there was an Urartian contribution to the Armenian people, there isn't much solid evidence one way or another about the relationship between Urartian remnants and proto-Armenians. There's a gap in knowledge between the fall of Urartu and the rise of Armenia. Isomorphic 07:02, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

It's really much more simple than people make it out to be. Urartians were the Hurrian speaking elite and rulers of the state. After countless wars with Assyria, already weakened Urartu is destroyed by Scyhtians/Cimmerians. Right about the same time Media takes over, obviously Medians favored the native and newly arrived IE's rather than the Hurrian speaking peoples. That's why their language and culture take a back seat, while IE's dominate from then on arguably in a syncretic society.--Eupator 19:56, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Sounds basically right to me. But still, the truth is that all we have is speculation, assumption, and some weak evidence. Nobody truly knows where the Urartians went, or how long they kept some form of coherent state. I know some have suggested that a greatly weakened Urartian entity may have existed in the north for some time after the cities fell. Isomorphic 02:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

You just raised my concerns about the changes made. Fadix 23:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Remember, after all, that we're talking about a people who were completely unknown to history from before the time of the medieval Armenian hisorians, all the way until the last couple centuries. Yor "first source" is a joke. If you take that sort of thing seriously, I have a bridge to sell you. Isomorphic 02:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

Every body who is neutral notice that this page is owned by some POV-pushers. They remove sourced material which they don't like from the article. e.g. following text: [8] Urartu was what is now Armenia, a country that covers Armenia itself and parts of Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Much of it is where the modern Kurds live, and the Kurds are the direct line of the people who lived there then, although interbred with subsequent peoples. The Gutu or Kuti lived in the middle reaches of the Tigris about 2000 BC, in Sumerian times, and were related apparently to the Kassites who lived to the east on the edge of the Iranian plateau. The Assyrian name of them, Kirtie, evolved into Kardi. The name of Babylonia used in the Amarna letters is Karduniash. The Armenians crossed the Caucasus in about 600 BC, pushing the Chaldians to the south so that they lived in what is now Kurdistan. The word “Kurd” is “Kald” with another common consonantal change. Asina 14:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You need to read the following : WP:Verifiability--Eupator 14:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

once you cite your first verifiable source, we may start considering whether or not we have a dispute. You may, for example, check out Armenians to learn that it is far from certain that the "Armenians crossed the Caucasus in 600 BC". You are just copy-pasting random material from crackpot websites, in violation of both GFDL and Verifiability/CITE. I suggest you read a book on the topic and come back with ISBN and page numbers. dab (ᛏ) 14:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Here are some other sources referring to the Khaldi:

The Urartians or Chaldians in the hills to the north of the Assyrian steppes had shown they were a danger to the Assyrians who accordingly had a keen interest in stopping the Chaldians from using their temple to their god Chaldi at Musasir. [9]

The Chaldi (Urartu) signs from the 8th century BC also talk of the land between the Transcaucasian Kura and Araxes River area and often mentions their horses. From a military expedition they obtained 10,000s of horned cattle and 100, 000 s of sheep, and 100s of horses. /Mescaninov, Leningrad (Chaldi). [10]

These are in addition to my first source which is a good one [11]. Asina 16:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You seem to want to argue that there is a connection between the Khaldi and the Urartians. I admit that the hypothesis sounds less far out than others I've heard, and I have nothing against mentioning it. You just need to tell us who suggested it, in what publication. Piling on the dodgy weblinks (Messopotamia in a title is not exactly a seal of quality) is of no interest. Name a scholar and cite his suggestion. dab (ᛏ) 20:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

And this is another academic one Ephuater:

This country was formerly the home of one of the great empires of ancient history; that of the Urartians or Khaldians, who could dispute the hegemony of Asia with Assur, at the time when the first colonists were settling on the seven bare hills that afterwards were Rome By: THE REV. W. A. WIGRAM, D.D. [12] Asina 22:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

And remember that this is not a matter of Kurdish nationalism since Kurdish nationalists see themselves as PURE Aryans (such as Medes) and look down as unknown peoples such as this. Asina 22:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

and here:

but it is very doubtful whether Armenians have any connexion with the aboriginal Khaldian inhabitants. Their own traditions absolutely contradict the theory; but their modern national writers are apt to claim such descent. [13]

Maybe this should be included If other nations are ignored? Asina 23:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyway remember that in academic world Kurds are regarded as a very ancient people of the region; even long before Armenians came to around lake van in 7th B.C.:

The Armenians took refuge in the Lake Van region in the seventh century B.C., apparently in reaction to Cimmerian raids. Their country was described by Xenophon around 400 B.C. as a tributary of Persia. By the first century B.C., a united Armenian kingdom that stretched from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea had been established as a client of the Roman Empire to buffer the frontier with Persia.

Xenophon also recorded the presence of the Kurds. Contemporary linguistic evidence has challenged the previously held view that the Kurds are descendants of the Medes, although many Kurds still accept this explanation of their origin. Kurdish people migrated from the Eurasian steppes in the second millennium B.C. and joined indigenous inhabitants living in the region. Source: U.S. Library of Congress [14] Asina 23:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Your Wigram links begins to convince me that the Khaldi were identified with the Urartian by some 19th century scholars, so let's mention the association. We still need a proper citation though. Note that the Khaldi are attested at the Black Sea coast, in the Bronze Age, while the Urartians are attested in Armenia, in the Iron Age. If anything, therefore, the Urartians derive from Khaldi stock. That's a hypothesis and should be sourced. dab (ᛏ) 05:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The Kingdom was known as Armenia to the Greeks living in western Anatolia, possibly due to that fact the contacts they had with Urartu, were through the people calling themselves Armens, or Armenians. So to Greece, and thereafter to the Roman Empire, the country was known as the land of Armens – Armenia.

This was edited to form the current, improved version of this short paragraph without the Armenian POV. --Azzarzurna 10:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tree of life

I removed the sentence referring to the tree of life. (It was believed to be the site of the Tree of Life and was sought after by various kings in that era.) This claim is apparently based on The Urantia Book – text of dubious origin. Moreover, even if one assumes the text to be genuine and valuable, he/she still can’t make the claim, because Urantia refers to the Earth not to Urartu. I am not aware of any historical texts of Assyrian or Hittite origin mentioning the Tree of Life in Urartu. Evgeny 18:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urartu Ethnic Composition

This message for a bunch of guys who arekeeping to remove my edit. The ethnic composition of Urartu was a subject of dispute in the page "Armenia". But there is some temporarily agreement now on that subject - Urartu' people and Armenians were different. Please stop removing my contribution to that section with relevant reference. Otherwise, let's refer to mediation--Dacy69 14:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. We know that two languages were spoken in the region. That's it. It's already stated in the article that Armenian is Indo-European and Urartian has affinities with Hurrian. No need to repeat things twice.--Eupator 20:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Woo, is it proclamation? Who knows? I and some other know different things - and we cite sources. --Dacy69 02:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It is for Eupator, Ararat rev and other guys who are just keeping to destroy other contributions. Please read other authors - I.Diakonov for example. The problem with some Armenians is that you are so ardent, brain washed by a sense of nationalism. What if Urartu is not your ancestors - how it impacts Armenia. For example - Russia should not be less proud if their first kings were Scandinavians. Britain was conquered by Normanns. So what? It became great empire, anyway. It does not matter at all for your ethnic pride if Urartu is not your direct ancestors. But it is big problem for the science of history - nationalists try to re-write and distort it. This problem exists now in Iran, Russia, Balkans, Caucasus. Everybody is competing for being the most ancient. I recommend, you guys, read your compatriot's book - Ronald Grigor Suny: for example, Looking Toward Ararat: Armenia in Modern History or Populism, Nationalism, and Marxism: The Origins of Revolutionary Parties Among the Armenians of the Caucasus--Dacy69 02:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Familiarize yourself with WP:CIVIL and WP:No personal attacks. Don't discuss other editors or their possible motives. Consider yourself warned. --Eupator 02:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any personal attack in my message. Academic - yes. It is about attitude to history. For personal attack please see my discussion page and Ararat rev comments. Now about my points. Just would like to cite Encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074433/Urartu) "The Urartians had a number of traits in common with the Hurrians, an earlier Middle Eastern people. Both nations spoke closely related languages and must have sprung from a common ancestor nation (perhaps 3000 BC or earlier). Although the Urartians owed much of their cultural heritage to the Hurrians, they were to a much greater degree indebted to the Assyrians... The Urartians were finally overcome by invading Armenians toward the end of the 7th century BC."--Dacy69 03:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't care what you think is a personal attack. Remain civil. Also, if you haven't noticed yet, Wikipedia is not Brittanica.--Eupator 04:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I know what it is. I've seen it from Ararat rev. Read Wikipedia guidelines - it is based on well reputative sources not propoganda. Britannica is one of reliable sources. So, it has a right to be inserted along with others.Let's return to the subject of this page. perhaps, we can recourse to mediation--Dacy69 04:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Britannica is no truth. There is no consensus on ethnic composition. We can't site one side's view as a fact. Read my additions in the "Language Debate" section. We don't know whether Urartian was spoken or merely written in the area, so we can't know for sure what the ethnicities were. Though I believe it points to them being Armenians.--TigranTheGreat 09:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

My point is one of POV which is indeed supported by many reputative scholars outside Armenia. Let's refer to mediation. Why you are so afraid of this procedure. Otherwise, I have to recourse to Arbitration--Dacy69 14:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Save us your threats, familiarize yourself with wiki polciies before you resort to threatening. Arbitration will never be accepted for this.--Eupator 15:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The article already clearly mentions the minority and majority positions. And it doesn't say U. was armenian--TigranTheGreat 19:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Eupator, watch for your language, instead. I don't threaten. I propose mediation and inform you about my further steps - this is in a spirit of cooperation. Again for threatening look at some other users on my talk page. And for TigrantheGreat - My point is about ethnic composition. My POV with reference to sources. That part says that Urartians and Armenians has coherent links. I don't agree. Let's resolve through mediation.--Dacy69 19:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It already says that Urartians and Armenians spoke different language. The "coherent" links is about culture--if they lived together, they must have developed some common grounds.--TigranTheGreat 19:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I accept the point about language. It is written in Language section. However, as I argued with Ararat rev - language is not only issue. My further point is the Armenians moved there later, in 7-6 BC. I see there is no agreement on mediation procedure? Why we should not try? You are pretty confident in your arguments. So, maybe I will lose.--Dacy69 21:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't need any agreement. You can call for mediation anytime you want! --Eupator 21:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am filing request for mediation on this, as well as on Yerevan page. I ask parties involved to put their signitares--Dacy69 21:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Page has now been fully protected upon request at WP:RFPP. It will stay until people can resolve the disputes. Nishkid 64 21:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Hopefully we can straighten things out. Nareklm 22:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Eupator and TigranTheGreat are asked to sign mediation agreement. Please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Urartu --Dacy69 17:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

do not hold articles hostage with your pathetic quibbling over 'ethnic composition'. The 'ethnic composition' of Urartu is totally uninteresting to anyone but Armenian nationalists. This isn't an article on Armenian patriotism, it is an article on an ancient kingdom. If you want to argue about various theories of Armenian ethnogenesis, do that over at Armenians and History of Armenia, where it is on topic. On this article, there shouldn't be more than one sentence containing a link to those articles. dab (𒁳) 08:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

How about you stop calling every contributor of Armenian descent an Armenian nationalist? Anyone who raises objections is an Armenian patriot to you? And who are you to say what ethnic composition (or anything for that matter) are interesting to? Try showing some of that Swiss neutrality we admire so much. Hakob 21:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I don't know what is happening here but

I can assume, given that Adil (Dacy69) is back. I appologise to dab for my answer, but settling issues is the only way to keep this article clean from Adil intrusions, since believe me, he will refuse to leave the article alone. First of all, this article is about Urartu, so I fail to see why people are bothered about it, more particularly nationalist Azeris editors like Adil.

Is there any link between Armenians and Urartians? Herodotus claims that those living in Armenia are the natives who acquired the language of the conquerers, which he claims to be the Phrygians. It sounds weird at first that Adil will obsessivally fight on this, since Azeris have the same sort of claim on the Caucasian Albanian, claims which he supports himself. We know that Herodotus was probably right on the basis of Haplotype and other genetic sequencing tests that Armenians are more genetically linked with the Caucasus indigenous people than those of the 'Thraco-Phrygian region.' Also, there are Armenian language anomalies and barrowing in its structures which suggest indigenous language assimilation.

I have already placed those works as references in the past, which treat about the Armenian language structural differences with typical Indo-European, suggesting early mixture.

Problems of Armenian Phonology I, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 30, No. 2 (Apr., 1954), pp. 197-201

Problems of Armenian Phonology II, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 31, No. 1 (Jan., 1955), pp. 4-8

Problems of Armenian Phonology III, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 38, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul., 1962), pp. 254-262

On the Placing of Armenian, by J. Alexander Kerns; Benjamin Schwartz, Language, Vol. 18, No. 3 (Jul., 1942), pp. 226-228

Is Armenian an Anatolian Language? by William M. Austin, Language, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Jan., 1942), pp. 22-25

The Etymology of Armenian ert'am by Charles R. Barton, Language, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1963), p. 620

'Initial' Indo-European */y/ in Armenian, by Robert Minshall, Language, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Oct., 1955), pp. 499-503

Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians by John A. C. Greppin; I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 111, No. 4 (Oct., 1991), pp. 720-730

The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages by Douglas Q. Adams, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 104, No. 3 (Jul., 1984), pp. 395-402

The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis by E. H. Sturtevant, Language, Vol. 38, No. 2 (Apr., 1962), pp. 105-110

Adjacency Parameters in Phonology by David Odden, Language, Vol. 70, No. 2 (Jun., 1994), pp. 289-330

Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology, by Gordon Myron Messing, Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 56 (1947), pp. 161-232

Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian by I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 105, No. 4 (Oct., 1985), pp. 597-603

The Armenian Aorist by G. Bonfante, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 62, No. 2 (Jun., 1942), pp. 102-105

Mountain of Tongues: The Languages of the Caucasus by J. C. Catford, Annual Review of Anthropology, Vol. 6 (1977), pp. 283-314

Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship by Alvar Ellegard, Language, Vol. 35, No. 2, Part 1 (Apr., 1959), pp. 131-156

Having said that, I will also add that, indiginous Armenians had various aspects of their cultures directly influenced by the Urartian Kingdom, their Gods, their buildings etc.

Finally, there is no point in raising any issues such as 'Armenians are not Urartians', which I assume Adil is doing, since no one I think claims they are, on the other hand, the Armenian Kingdom founded after the fall of Urartu has been founded by the same indiginous people, but the domminating class was replaced. Fad (ix) 18:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

First, I asked to verify my identiy to settle this issue and to stop groundless accusation.

Second, my interest in Urartu is in its genuine history - and to get rid of falsifications and speculations. I don't mind to accomodate various theories. And I don't mind when other people are interested in the history of other countires. This was the way how the science of history was developed. Ancient Egypt's history was developed mainly by Europeans, wasn't it? Germans wrote about ancient Rome, French scholar Grousset studied Turkic nomads, etc. There are many other examples. And here in Wikipedia Armenian user Clevelander are making his edits in Azerbaijani sites. This is a spirit of Wikipedia.

Now to the question itself. A long list of publications does not produce more reasoning, particularly, if they are about language. Piotrovski, when pointed to Urartian and Armenian differences, studied material culture. Here, in Ethnic Section, (not Language) it was stated about etnnic similarities and continuity btw Urartu and Armenians, which is basically non-mainstream opinion, which even the Armenian MFA is not supporting. In the 6th century B.C.E., Armenians settled in the kingdom of Urartu (the Assyrian name for Ararat), which was in decline” [[15]]. (Perhaps this will be removed soon)... Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia and many other scholars maintain other opinion. This, I argue, should be reflected in the Ethnic composition section. The same is applied to page Armenia, in section of Antiquity, when it states the same ethnic bonds and gives only Gamkrelidze-Ivanov theory. And, we perfectly know why this point is made by nationalists.--Dacy69 21:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

First, my accusation of you being Adil, is a result of a merging test which has a higher specificity than Checkusers which uses IP addresses, since anyone bright enough to use proxies could get away normally. If you want the results and my investigations, it will be my pleasure to post them on your talkpage. But I reserve the right to keep my sampling method introduced in SAS based platform to myself. About the Britannica source, you much about know that this is not a position accepted by everyone. Herodotus claims the Armenians are the indegenious people who acquired the language of the Phrygian invadors. But anyways, I fail to see the relevancy of this discussion with the main subject of this article. Fad (ix) 20:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

all this isn't even on-topic here. This is the article about Urartu. The relation of Urartu to the historical Armenians, such as it is, should be discussed on History of Armenia and Armenians. We will only place a brief link to these articles here, regardless of the merit of the Urartu-Armenians connection. I wish this article would attract editors interested in the actual topic, not just in some ethnic label intended to give an aura of antiquity to modern Armenians. dab (𒁳) 12:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article dispute. Association of Members' Advocates

User:Dacy69 has made a request for assistance in the editing of the Urartu article. According to Dacy69, the dispute centres on differing views on the ethnic composition of Urartu. As Dacy69's advocate I have looked into the case and spoken to several editors - some by email. Dacy69 has shown me evidence that there is a view held by some specialists in this matter. The view is known. The view is documented. As such, regardless of personal or political feelings regarding this view, it is entirely appropriate that the view is mentioned in the Ethnic composition section of the article. If there are any editors who continue to have a problem with this they should address their concerns to me. It is acceptable that editing of the article continues. However, it is not acceptable for documented and referenced views by acknowledged specialists to be deleted from the article. On Wikipedia we aim for balanced viewpoints.

Dacy69 has also complained about the language used by some editors in discussions regarding this topic. While it is understandable that feelings can run high during an editing dispute, I would hope at this point that everyone involved would assume good manners and only comment on the material. Also, there has been mention that Dacy69 is a potential sock-puppet. I have looked into this. There is no evidence for this. So I would assume that from this point on editors will stop making that accusation. If any editor has any queries about this or any other matters relating to this case they are welcome to speak to me. SilkTork 12:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Urartu images

Dbachmann those are Urartu images. You even approved one of them that is on my page with the 2 Lions. Those are all Urartu images. I put the same info you put on the 2 Lion Urartu freize. Ararat arev 18:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

, you [16] even approved one of them with the same info and tag. You put the PD-art link with it. Those are Urartu images. Ararat arev 18:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I "approved" of them in the sense that I do not assume they are a copyright violation. Which is nothing more than a kind assumption, I wouldn't put any money on it. Now, this means, I don't necessarily think they need be deleted. If you want to insert them here, you will need to tell us what they depict. "Urartu family" / "Urartu warriors" is not good enough. What are they? drawings of a frieze? Drawn by whom? Published where? Where was this frieze? Where is it kept? You cannot just plaster this page with random images you found on the internet. You need to provide references as to what is on your images just the same as for text you insert into an article. dab (𒁳) 15:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you add those parts, since Ive seen you do with other images? Im saying can you do it, because you might provide with more info on it, and approve it more. Ararat arev 17:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I mean like, I dont know what to put like "Urartu warriors" what else should I put ? 8th century BC? Or you want something more. Ararat arev 17:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The guy is acussing me of reverting when we havent even got response here. You havnt responded cause you were out away from the internet. He isnt even discussing in Talk pages, Nareklm. He keeps reverting to get his way out of the issue when I told you about in your page. Once again the guy isnt dicsussing changes on Talk pages.Ararat arev 20:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You guys are like children, you're making this a big deal when it was already there. This is how it was and it should stay like this. Dbachmann just said to add in more info of the images Ararat arev 21:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

if we are the children, how is it that you're the one breaking all the rules to keep it the way you like it? Thanatosimii 21:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You had not removed this thing. This 16 year old comes and removes it and even puts "copyvio" on it, trying to get a reason out of it. When the admins handling copyright approved it. Ararat arev 21:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Thanasimii, you're not seeing the whole situations. Ararat arev 21:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not the image is legal, it is not beneficial to the article. This article is full of cruft images, and they need to be taken out as per the guidelines on why we have images. Please spend some time reading up on wikipedia's goals and guidlines over the next few days. Thanatosimii 21:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The images were there and its childish what he's doing. He is 16 years old. That should tell you. This image I want to stay there. He doesnt just get his opinion in this, and neither do you. There are many like Davo88, Dbachmann, and others have a say in this too. Khoikhoi also. Ararat arev 21:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanasimii, what happened also was you came in the scene when you saw Nareklm removing images. You came in and joined this, by making a big deal out of no where. Otherwise you left it how it was before. Ararat arev 21:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

And I like Dbachmann's opinions, and I want his say in this. The others too Ararat arev 21:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Stop referring to other people talk here you added the images and you discuss it we don't need other opinions theres enough people on this article and so far everyone has opposed it. Nareklm 21:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You have no right to answer that way when you childishly were the one that started this big deal. And if yoiu read in Talk:Mitanni Thanasimii does say to get other peoples opinioins. Ararat arev 22:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay? than this is not going to be solved anytime soon. Nareklm 22:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I explicitly said do not go around soliciting other people's attention to such a minor issue. The rules are the rules. According to the rules, random images=not ok!. Obey the rules. Thanatosimii 22:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For Eupator

It is generally agreed that the Urartians arose from the Hurrians- besides sources I mentioned you can look at an exact phrase [17]

The Armenians moved in Armenian plateau in VII-VI BC = In the 6th century B.C.E., Armenians settled in the kingdom of Urartu (the Assyrian name for Ararat), which was in decline - Armenian MFA [18]

After all, you are proposing editing to my language. Ok, why I can't make it to yours -you removed my suggestion regarding Gamkrelidze-Ivanov theory which is indeed minoruty view:

Certain words and theories are laden with political significance. Thus, the controversial linguistic theory of T. Gamkrelidze and V. Ivanov (1984), which sees the original Proto-Indo-European developing in direct association with the Proto-Kartvelian (West Caucasian) and ancient Semitic families of languages in an eastern Anatolian homeland, receives an extremely warm reception not on its linguistic merits, but on its locating Proto-Indo-European speakers in the historic Armenian heartland. Proto-Indo-European thus becomes a buzzword for Proto-Armenian. This questionable identification is transparent in tendentious interpretations of Bronze Age and later prehistoric materials from Transcaucasia, as exemplified by V.E. Oganesian's (1992) implausible ethnic interpretation of the fantastically suggestive iconography on a silver goblet recently excavated in the Karashamb cemetery north of Yerevan; or by G. E. Areshian's (1992:27) detailed and ingenious, albeit strained, attempt to weave together historical, mythological, and archaeological materials to demonstrate that "Armeno-Aryans" constituted "the population living in the basins of the Araxes and Kura from the end of the third millennium BC" and "continuously carried out rituals connected with Indo-European cosmogonic mythology.

from -- Philip L. Kohl, Clare Fawcett. Nationalism, Politics and the Practice of Archaeology (edition mentioned above in the discussion page)

But anyway, you should discuss further editing and proposal to SiklTork. --Dacy69 16:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Composition debate

Lets find some agreement here. It appears to me as an outsider that there is a political dimension to some of this editing. It also appears that some information is being included, not for academic reasons to explain to the general reader the theories, counter theories and known evidence for the ethnic composition of Urartu, but to make political points. I would like to see appropriate content relating to known theories of the ethnic composition of Urartu. And I'd like an explanation as to why it is felt the Proto-Indo-European debate belongs here in such detail.

We can take this sentence by sentence if needed. I'm not sure why "assumed" has been used in the first sentence. I was happier with Eupator's "argued", because it does reflect that it is a theory, not a proven fact. I am suggesting that "argued" be used. SilkTork 19:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It is generally assumed that the Urartians arose from the Hurrians. ^[1]. The Urartians were succeeded in the area in the 6th century BC by the Armenians.^[2] Hypotheses based on this narrative could place Armenians in their traditional homeland of eastern Asia Minor anywhere from around 1200 BC to around 700 BC (pushed eastward from Phrygia by the invasions of the Cimmerians in 696 BC).^[3]^[4] A competing view suggested by Thomas Gamkrelidze and Vyacheslav V. Ivanov in 1984 places the Proto-Indo-European homeland in the Armenian Highland.^[5] A recent study (Gray & Atkinson) that applied the statistical tools used in timing genetic evolution to the lexical evolution of Indo-European languages strongly implied that the Indo-European homeland indeed appears to be in Asia Minor, and Armenian language (hence a well-defined group speaking it) split from it (along with Greek) at around 5300 BC, and split from Greek shortly thereafter (but the "split" from Greek was statistically less obvious).^[6] After the disappearance of Urartu as a political entity, the Armenians dominated the highlands, absorbing portions of the previous Urartian culture in the process.^[7]

^ Boris B. Piotrovsky, The Ancient Civilization of Urartu, Cowles Book Co., Inc., New York, NY, 1969; Diakonov I.M., Starostin S.A. Hurro-Urartian as an Eastern Caucasian Languages. Münchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft, R. Kitzinger, München, 1986; Ancient Hurrians
^ Urartu on Britannica
^ Herodotus - The Histories, Book 7, Chapter 73
^ The Armenians - by Elizabeth Redgate, A. E. (Anne Elizabeth)
^ The Early History of Indo-European Languages, Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov Scientific American, March 1990, P.110
^ Language-tree divergence times support the Anatolian theory of Indo-European origin, Russell D. Gray and Quentin D. Atkinson, Nature 426, 435-439 (27 November 2003)
^ Star Spring Urartu

there are two issues here. The Hurrian-Urartian connection is pretty uncontroversial, the langauges being similar, and nobody has political stakes here. Then there is the Urartian-Armenian connection which is problematic, since the languages are completely different, and Armenians do have a political interest in it (apparently, although it is unclear what they would gain even if it was proven that every Armenian is a pure blooded Urartian). The "Armenian PIE Urheimat" cruft, controversial or not, is simply offtopic here and belongs on Armenian hypothesis (while this is the article on Urartu, for crying out loud), remove with prejudice. dab (𒁳) 19:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Db, why don't you edit the section and change it to your liking? I will be satisfied with "your version". Obviously there is a political stake, otherwise Dacy69 would not have introduced Armenians into that section to beging with!--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I see you already did. I have absolutely no problem with the changes you made.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

First - current version needs clean up ("see" should be put in bracket, etc.) Secondly, Armenian issue was not introduced by me in this section. It was before my editing (check history), I just put majority view into this section. There is no political issue here - I agree with 'db'. It is indeed put by some nationalists who wants connect Urartu with Armenia. Thirdly, I suggested to shorten sentences about Proto-Indo-European dispute in this section but as usually Eupator just cut off my suggestion. It is enough to mention Gamkrelidze-Ivanov proposition, which is a tiny minority. And finally - I see that Uratu-Hurrians connection is suggested to have only linguistic ground. Indeed Piotrovsky, archeologist, studied first of all, material culture, not linguistic. But in order to end this dispute finally, I am ok with current version (but it is better to have some reduction of Proto-Indo-European dispute).--Dacy69 20:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

how splendid, everyone seems to agree. Please do add reference to the material evidence of the Hurro-Urartian connection, I didn't mean to imply that it was exclusively based on linguistic evidence. As I said, the Hurro-Urartian thing is really quite uncontroversial, it's the Armenians' role that is the difficult bit. "Armenian PIE" aside, it really boils down to, were they present in the 6th, the 7th, 8th, or even 9th century, which is really just a sliding scale and a precise date for the "Coming of the Armenians" to Urartu is of course impossible to establish. dab (𒁳) 21:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's impossible, although the related research is fascinating. The fact is the involved parties are not interested in that at all though. DB, being a proponent of the Kurgan hypothesis don't you support the idea of language replacement in regards to the Urartu/Armenia debacle?--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 21:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Good. So this matter is now closed? SilkTork 08:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words

Khoikhoi, there is absolutely nothing controversial about my edit. It is based purely policy. We avoid weasel words: Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. According to the definition of Weasel word

Generalization by means of grammatical quantifiers (few, many, people, etc.), as well as the passive voice ("it has been decided") are also part of weasel wording.

"generally assumed" is a "generalization by means of a gramatic quantifier, and is therefore a weasel word. It's best to present the theories as "majority" vs. "minority," as it's more precise.

This is from a critique of the minority view, using the more precise "majority" term:

According to Aslanian, most historians who deal with this question in the West agree that the origins of Armenians are “clouded in obscurity.” [19]

As far as Urartians related to Hurrians, again this is from the source used in the article:

The relationship between Hurrian and Subarean has already been mentioned, and the language of the Urartians, who played an important role from the end of the 2nd millennium to the 8th century BC, is likewise closely related to Hurrian. http://history-world.org/hurrians.htm

--TigranTheGreat 03:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You can also look at: It is generally agreed that the Urartians arose from the Hurrians. ...[20]--Dacy69 03:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I put it to you, TigranTheGreat, that your edit is not "pure policy". To begin with, you need to convince us that "urartology" is even the name of a discipline in actual use, and not something you made up on the spot. Then, talking of a "majority" entails the claim that there is a dissenting minority. Thus, you cannot make such a claim, let alone on grounds of "pure policy" unless you give us evidence of such a minority position. Otherwise, "generally assumed" is much more accurate, it means that some people make the positive claim, while others shrug, saying "yeah, seems likely", but nobody is actually disputing it. dab (𒁳) 08:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Urartology" is a title of a specific article in the Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia, volume 12, 1987. The source is reputable, with the only potential problem being bias. The use of the term is not suseptible to the bias problem--whether you are pro- or anti-Armenian, the existence of the term doesn't help or harm either. Even our Azeri user Adil uses the term ("Dyakonof (top urartologist)"--[21], hence it has nothing to do with pro-Armenian bias.

The minority view is well documented in the article, and there is a specific paragraph on that view. If there is minority, there is no general assumption. I mean, come on, even for the pro-Genocide position we would never use "generally assumed."--TigranTheGreat 23:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

You can google the following term--урартолог--(which in Russian transliterates urartologist), and there are good deal of hits from reputable russian science sites. Same with "urartology"--TigranTheGreat 00:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to the term, I was just saying you'd have to back if up somehow, which you have now done; concerning the lacking evidence of the existence of a dispute over Hurro-Urartian, I don't know what you mean? The only documented dispute is on the role of Armenian, not on the relation of Hurrian and Urartian. Look, I recognize there is a dispute on the presence of Armenians. Majority: they arrived around 700 and by 600 dominated the area; Minority: They were present since before 1000 and formed a substrate in Urartu from its beginnings. The presence or absence of Armenians in early Urartu is however irrelevant for the classification of Urartians. Armenian presence would mean just that, there was an Armenian subject population even in early Urartu. dab (𒁳) 11:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Mr. Bachmann, I see the misunderstanding now. Given that I have studied in an Armenian university and am well aware with the minority position, I believe I should explain it, especially that I have observed that there is some confusion about it in the West (partially, I blame it on the tendency of some Western historians to label it "nationalistic" without examining the evidence). I have been planning to do so for a while but never had the time to (and even now it will have to be shorter than I would hope). The following is only explanation of the minority view, without sources (the main source is the Arm. Sov. Enc.)

Here how it goes (and my prior edits, now removed by you, reflected it). The majority believes there were Hurrian Urartians (natives) and indo-european Armenians (immigrants) in Urartu. The minority view is that it was all Armenian--i.e. the Urartians were in fact Armenians. The view holds that the native Armenian population remained in the highland after the PIE split, and in the 9th c. established a unified Armenian kingdom (i.e. federation of Armenian-speaking tribes). And as it has been throughout the Armenian history (prior to the invention of the Armenian alphabet), the Armenians adopted a foreign writing and language to record their deeds--a Hurrian dialect, written in cuneiform. It is further suggested that the language was adopted from Hittite and late-luvian archives, where Hurrian inscriptions existed. I.e.--the "urartian" language was not spoken in Urartu--it was merely written.

The evidence behind this "Urartian was not spoken" view is that it is very limitted, repetitive, non-creative (as used in Urartu)--i.e. it's not what a spoken lively language would look like.

Now, once we propose that Urartian was not spoken, we need to determine "what was then the spoken language of those who wrote in Urartian." The answer given by the minority view is Armenian. And the reason is the plentitude of Armenian loan words. Since you asked for such loan words, I will copy a few here (first I give the Urartian form, then in parentheses the Armenian original): tsari (tsar)--tree; abili (aveli)--more; suri (sur)--sword; istini (ast)--here; ini (ayn)--that; iese (yes)--I; aru (ar)--take; atu (utem)--eat; artsibi (artsiv)--eagle. In sum, there are 70 such loanwords.

How do we know they are Armenian loanwords in Urartian and not the other way around? Because the words are indo-european--hence they couldn't be native Urartian.

Now, I realize you are sceptical towards anything that seems nationalistic, but I believe it's best to put labels aside for a minute and look at the theory itself.

Also, since the current version does not accurately reflect the minority view, it should be corrected.--TigranTheGreat 16:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was discussed already many times. And here below you find quotes about nationalism, Uratu, etc again. I think you should read the whole discussion before repeating the same things. And if you know Russian where Armenian users are quite active, yuo can find article on Urartu which indeed states that apredominant view is that Urartians were Hurrits. And they were not only based on linguistic but archeological and other grounds.

Philip L. Kohl, Clare Fawcett. Nationalism, Politics and the Practice of Archaeology (New Directions in Archaeology). ISBN: 0521558395

No less problematic are heavily slanted interpretations of the Urartian kingdom, the first historically attested state in Transcaucasia (ninth to seventh centuries BC). Armenian chauvinists must explain why this state, a worthy adversary of the neo-Assyrian Empire of northern Mesopotamia and one that expanded over much of "historic Armenia," composed its royal cuneiform inscriptions in Urartian, a non Indo-European ( i.e., non-Armenian) language, related to Hurrian and ancestral to the Northeastern Caucasian family of languages spoken today by different peoples in Daghestan, Chechenia, and Ingushetia (see Jankowska 1991:231). Reasonable historical hypotheses can be advanced for a Proto-Armenian component to this kingdom, and there is a real sense in which the Armenians are the cultural heirs of Urartu, but an essentialist view of Armenian culture which equates it precisely with the Urartian kingdom cannot be sustained. One must distinguish between popular and professional Armenian interpretations of Urartu, the latter being subtler and more difficult to evaluate. Thus, popular reference to the "Piotrovskii problem" is based on the fact that B.B. Piotrovskii, the late Director of the Hermitage in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) and former head of the excavations at Karmir Blur (the ancient Urartian capital of Teishebaine now located within the city of Yerevan), had quite reasonably maintained that the mighty Urartian Iron Age kingdom did not constitute the first Armenian state for the reasons stated above; the "problem" only existed for those who wanted Armenians always to have lived in and controlled "historic Armenia" until the later ravages wrought by Romans, Persians, Arabs, and Turks. More discriminating professional archaeologists, who may accept the reasonable theory that the ethnogenesis or formation of Armenian culture occurred during post-Urartian Achaemenid times, extol the might of the Urartians and see them exercising political control over most of eastern Anatolia, western Iran, and Transcaucasia; in this respect they remain the direct precursors of the Armenian kingdom under Tigran II.Page 157

The above paragraph merely confirms the existence of a minority view (though in a very POV manner).--TigranTheGreat 18:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] can we conclude with the boring "Armenian" stuff soon?

Urartu is straightforward as the predecessor state of ancient Armenia. So yes, Armenians are the bona fide inheritors of Urartian culture. That's as far as it goes (I daresay that the proposition that Urartians "are" Armenians is more on the batshit-nationalist side). This is not the "Origins of Armenians" article, and if Urartu is notable to Armenia, it does not mean that Armenia is notable to Urartu. The scope of this article is Urartu. People come here because they want to read about Urartu, not Armenian origins. All haggling over Armenian origins belongs on the Armenians article. Thank you. dab (𒁳) 15:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Dab, I am sorry you find the Armenian connection to Urartu "boring," but it's central to Urartu. Even Dyakonoff devoted a good chunck of his Urartu chapter to the origin of Armenians--for a good reason: even from Dyakonoff's point of view, Armenians were a key element in Urartu's ethnic make-up, and played a major role in its history. Here is a link to Dyakonoff's book, specifically to his chapter on Urartu: http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000002/st03.shtml. If you find a Russian speaker, take a look at how many times Armenians are mentioned. I am also sorry you find "Armenians are Urartians" nationalist, but that is your POV, and you know better than me that on Wiki we represent both majority and minority POV's, without asserting either as truth.--TigranTheGreat 22:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Previous Aryan(IE) states and tribes that influenced Urartu

Somebody please add this very important info that proves Urartu was not just Hurrian and links with Armenians from Vahan Kurkjian's page:

There appears to have been a pre-Indo-European substratum of speech which strongly influenced the Indo-European-Armenian. Professor N. Marr, a Khaldist authority, suspects that the language of the Vannic cuneiforms (Urartu cuneiforms) is of the type of several modern Caucasian dialects of the Japhetic class. However, the Aryo-Indo-European must have exerted great influence upon the Urartean, even long before the times of the Vannic Empire.

On the other hand, E. Meyer cites names of royal princes many centuries before Christ in the Taurus area and Palestine, and later in Commagene; names such as Arta-tama (king of Mitanni), Arta-skana and Artamana, all more Iranian in character than Indian, and all bearing the Arta prefix which persists in Armenian names to this day.

The Subarean (Asianic-Hurri-Japhetic) language is the basic stratum of the various above-mentioned tongues; it was topped and strongly affected by the Aryan-Mitanni language, from which mixture the Urartean sprang up, it being related in turn to the old Hatti-Asianic, the new Caucasian and through Indo-European elements, to the Aryan languages. On this Indo-European-Armenian foundation was superimposed the Urartean speech, which was forced upon the conquered natives, from whose dialects also an additional stock of words was assimilated in the course of time. Traces of anthropological types of culture, religion and social customs are being discovered from time to time under the Armen stratum. The same may be said of the linguistic heritage of the past.

In his analysis of the known Iso-Urartean root-words, Professor Ghapantsian of Erevan University identifies one-fourth as of Hittite character. Many other root words and grammatical forms of non-Indo-European types have been found, but belonging to an Asia Minor group. All non-Indo-European elements, the Urartean and others, descend from the Subarean common origin. The same applies to the anthropological strata of the population of Armenia, whose chronology is stated by Professor A. Hatch as follows:

Subarean basic stratum dating from 3000 B.C.
Harri-Mitanni-Aryan stratum dating from 2000 B.C.
Mosch-Muski-Aryan-Phryge stratum dating from 1176 B.C.
Hatti major infiltration into Armenia 1200 B.C.
Khald-Urartean rule in Armenia 9th century B.C.
Phryge-Armen rule in Armenia 650 B.C.

Vahan Kurkjian, "History of Armenia," Michigan, 1968, [22] 206.148.188.118 16:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Vahan Kurjian is Armenian heritage and obviously can not be used here. It's POV.--Dacy69 17:18, 13 February 2007(UTC)

This is an Armenian article not Azeri get over it, we can use it here. Nareklm 20:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

the reason for this isn't that it is "POV" but that it isn't scholarly ("Subarean" indeed...) literature. if we can unearth the original publications and check what they really say, we can certainly use them. Incidentially, an Indo-Aryan superstratum in Mitanni is well know and widely accepted, it just has zilch do do with Armenians. And I would be rather interested what, if anything, a "Mosch-Muski-Aryan-Phryge" is supposed to be. dab (𒁳) 17:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Listen man, get your facts straight. The Armenians are native to the Armenian Highlands. I see where you are coming from, when you say Armenians have nothing to do with the previous states and tribes before Urartu. The problem is you dont see that the Phrygian-Armen type came later, yes thats true, they came later and intermingled with the native Armenians in the Armenian Highlands. I told you get your facts, there are tons of evidence from Assyrian, Persian, even Egyptian references of Armenians. They all wrote the word Armen in a different way slightly, but referring to the same native Armenians there.

And another thing the Aryans are from the Armenian Highlands, and for all of these people that have taken the Aryan out of the IE for Armenians, make me wonder what are they up to with that false information. 206.148.188.123 19:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is excessively citing the unreliable Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia (which is in Armenian), whilst completely overlooking the far more authoritative and balanced Great Soviet Encyclopedia (which was, although, edited by an Armenian, L.Shaumyan). Here's on Urartu itself: http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/114/412.htm, here's the map of Urartu: http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/010/001/281578467.jpg and here's the Urartu language: http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/114/411.htm . I would also suggest to make a better use of the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica, as well as other Russian-language sources, since they have produced the most scholarship on the Urartu. The Armenian Encyclopedia claims should not be used, at least not exclusively. --AdilBaguirov 17:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

to anonymous user - I don't see any reason to dicuss it again - I mean Armenian issue. Look at whole discussion above and you see, there is no proof of their presence in Urartu (except some reference to Gamkrelidze-Ivanov hypotethis, which is reflected in the article). Some nationalists just again try to come back with that.--Dacy69 18:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not just Gamkrelidze-Ivanov hypothesis, there are way more references and sources regarding Armenians being native to the Highlands, check your facts. 206.148.188.60 18:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

study the discussions above--Dacy69 19:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Even Dyakonoff stated that Armenians descended from Urartians (though were not identical), so it's not just "Armenian nationalists."

Во всяком случае, нельзя считать, что Армения совершенно сызнова должна была создавать цивилизянито после гибели Урар ту и что только ко II — I вв. до н.э. в ней вновь начинает преобладать рабовладельческий господствующий класс. Хотя на нагорье уже начал складываться новый, армянский народ, но армянское общество было прямым продолжением хуррито-урартского,

At any rate, one can't consider that Armenia had to completely create a civilization from scratch after Urartu's fall, and that only in 2-1 cc. BC the slaveowning ruling class starts to dominate in it. Though on the highland a new, Armenian nation was forming, but the Armenian society was the direct continuation of the Urartian.

I.M. Dyakonov, V.D. Neronova, I.S. Sventsitskaya, "History of the Ancient World," v. 2, Moscow 1983

http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000002/st03.shtml

Plus, the views of Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia are the official views of Soviet Armenian historiography, not just nationalists. As for Great Soviet Encyclopedia, it's nothing more than political propaganda enforced and dictated by Communist party's PolitBuro.

--TigranTheGreat 22:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Just so we're aware, the anon's IP adresses are 206.148.188.123, 206.148.188.60, 206.148.188.108, etc... now, 206.148.188.247 is a blocked sock of Ararat Arev. All of these start with 206.148.188. Coincidence? I think not... Thanatosimii 23:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

TigranTheGreat - it was me who in the section of Ethnic Composition put a referenced sentence that Armenians absorbed Urartian culture. Of course, Armenians did not started with scratch. But when recently some introduced in the section of Ethnogenesis that Armenians consider themselves as descendant of Urartu - this is basicly completely different thing. And many scholars opine that this view is nationalistic. I put reference which is being continuesly removed by Eupator and Nareklm. If you refer to Russian sources, then go to Russian Wikipedia and read about various theories about Urartu ethnicity. The most dominant is about Hurrit links. It also mention Armenian links but as marginal and nationalist. In Russian Wiki you have one non-Armenian user, Russian scholar Pavel Shehtman who is ardent supporter of Armenia. But even he admits that this theory is nationalistic. --Dacy69 23:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere does ASE suggest that only nationalists believe in it. In fact, it is ASE's official position (check the Urartu article in volume 12)--Urartians were Armenian speakers. A Russian wiki user's opinion is not fact.--TigranTheGreat 00:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

people - there are difference in between 'armenian society' & 'armenian nation'!! Almost any nation that lives in place of previos nation retains many same characteristics and traditions. and because of that the society can be the same or be similar to the predecessor, but nation or poeple absolutely different. Dyakonov and others always clearly distinguished between Urartu tribes and people, and between the Armenains. in fact, he and others always used 'proto-Armenians' instead of simply armenians, which distances Armenians even more from ancient Bianlini people. even modern Avars are more like ancient Avars and Huns than Armenians like Urarteans. Armenains ancient people - don't need inventions. --Gazanfar 00:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the majority view believes Urartians and Armenians were not the same, but were direct continuation of one another. The minority view never states that Urartians were the Armenian nation--just Armenian-speaking population: i.e. Armenians.--TigranTheGreat 01:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That assumption (Urartu is Armenian speaking population) is totally out of mainstream science. Regarding language - as put forward by quotation to which I refer: "Armenian chauvinists must explain..." I've put less strong word 'nationalist'.--Dacy69 02:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Your quotation reflects the author's anti-Armenian POV. We don't assert such POV's on Wiki. Calling one's opponent "chauvinist" is highly unacademic--TigranTheGreat 03:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

guys, "армянское общество было прямым продолжением хуррито-урартского / Armenian society was the direct continuation of the Hurro-Urartian". That's the long and short of it. That's what we say in the article. There's no problem with it. I don't see how you can in seriousness fill pages of debate about a brief and simple statement like that. just ignore the angry anons. dab (𒁳) 09:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

to TigranTheGreat - the word 'nationalits' is widely used in Wiki. Wiki's task is to give information and various opinions. And a reader then will judge. Here we have a reference to reputable scholarly work Philip L. Kohl, Clare Fawcett. Nationalism, Politics and the Practice of Archaeology - excatly about nationalism and archeology. It is not about Armenia - indeed it is only small piece of the book - Urartu case. the rest is oethr cases, starting from Aryan issue during Nazi Germany, and etc. Since you give sentence that Armenians claim their ethnic linkage to Urartu - it is relevant to give a view of scholars on that.--Dacy69 20:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I see where your coming from so if we remove "Modern Armenians claim descent from the Urartians" will you be satisfied? Nareklm 22:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Listen - a theory that Armenians claims their ancestry to Urartu has been mentioned in the section 'Ethnic composition'. I am reasonable man - even though it is out of mainstream science I don't mind to mention it. A reader will judge. Our task to give as much information as possible (except strong POV) So, why we should repeat that second time. If you feel that it is necessary to repeat that information again in the section under discussion then I have every reason to state my referenced info too. If we accept Armenian Soviet (!?) Encyclopedia why a reputable work of 2 western scholars should not be mentioned. I will win this case, I am sure, as it was previously.--Dacy69 00:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent additions

The quote is misleading it should not stay, plus we don't want a quote that has to do with "traditions" that are probably nationalist revisioned, the section is fine so lets keep it that way. Also Haik found Armenia or something not Urartu this quote seems wrong. Also that part about intermarried, it was Hayasa-Azzi and the Armens. Also there is no mention about Urartu, "The region and former kingdom of Asia Minor that was Greater Armenia lay east of the Euphrates River" Artaxiad 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Another quote: It appears that sometimes in the 4th century B.C. the Armenians expanded into the plain of Ararat, probably as a result of the conquest of the Persian empire by Alexander the Great. [23] All the people moved to the areas they populate now at a certain point in the history. Grandmaster 12:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes man I know what you mean but this is not clear therefore it should not stay, there are numerous sources stating where Armenians allegedly came from and most are not clear, the two you stated are not clear it is just messing the whole section up. It doesn't matter where Armenians migrated to, adding quotations or references that are obviously thrown down from traditions and theories or even from stories is not helping, the quote it self is not clear and it is not verifiable. Artaxiad 12:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's see what other people think about it. Grandmaster 12:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Since you added it you discuss here, we don't need other peoples opinions since this is not hard to verify these are also traditions passed down which obviously are not accurate, no reason for it to stay summarizing Armenian history in one quote is no good, since it contains nationalism also. Artaxiad 04:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not delete verifiable content. Did you read the above quote from Hewsen? It appears that sometimes in the 4th century B.C. the Armenians expanded into the plain of Ararat. Grandmaster 09:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Whats your point? who is he referring to ? Urartu? Artaxiad 09:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thats only one part also. Artaxiad 09:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources say that Armenians moved into this area at some point in history. Nothing strange here, all the people moved around the globe and I don't think there are such people on earth who always lived in a certain area. The article should state the fact. Grandmaster 09:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Please read this [24]. The quote I brought from the eminent scholar Diakonoff [25] Overrides the Tertiary source like Columbia Encyclopedia and Iranica. Artaxiad 16:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing in that paragraph which says that secondary sources override tertiary sources. Thanatosimii 17:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

In case of a contradiction, the wiki OR page is clear: All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. Furthermore I quote: Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources wherever possible.

Columbia Encyclopedia is a Teriary source. It does not even have an author mentioned. My dedicated source is a secondary source. It is from the greatest investigator of Armenian history and is focused specifically on Armenian history. [26]. Diakonoff also wrote articles on many ancient languages including Hurrian and Urartu. Artaxiad 17:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am certain that the authors of that policy did not intend to allow it to be used to forbid tertiary sources. Thanatosimii 18:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Please check Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Types_of_source_material. Tertiary sourced are allowed to be used here. Grandmaster 06:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources wherever possible.. They differ because one is a general work of reference which is based on outdated scholarship and was not written by a specialist (the Columbia article doesn't even have an author - the chances are that it has just been repeated verbatim from an earlier edition of the Encyclopedia), while the books of Diakonoff and Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture are specialised works with articles written by experts. Artaxiad 12:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Show me a link to that policy, please. From what I can see the policy says: Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require stronger sources. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources. Columbia is a third-party published source. What is the source of your quote? Grandmaster 12:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Read this:

Another migration of Indo-Europeans began in the 12th c BC, at the time of the Trojan War. It concerns the eviction of Thraco-Phrygian tribes (called "foreign settlers") from their native lands by "the People of the Sea" (i.e. early Greeks, Minoans or Mycanaeans). The Thraco-Phrygian moved through the Euphrates into the Armenian Plateau. First inhabiting the land immediately East of the Trojan kingdom in Asia Minor, the Thraco-Phrygians settled on the Western edges of the Armenian plateau and intermingled with the "Haiassa-Aza", further developing Indo-European language, culture and physical features.

One of these people's were the forebears of the Urartians, who spoke a distinct language, perhaps borrowed from Assyria and Babylon, but more likely from the Hittites or later Thraco-Phrygian tribes escaping the war at Troy.

What this means is the Khaldi tribe of Nairi which is Urartu, were the people that migrated not the Armenians. As we have stated before many ancient records mention Armin, Ermen (which you Turks and Azeri's and Kurds also say in this form), Armani. Armenians always been Native in the Armenian Highlands. 206.148.188.197 23:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

For the record, since he keeps adding this, This text was added by banned user Ararat Arev editing via anonymous accounts. Thanatosimii 00:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

My source [27] is Academic I.M. Diakonoff [28] who is quoted in by J.P. Mallory [29]. You can look at the Russian wikipedia for wider exposure to Diakonoff and his work. So who is the author of your source in Columbia Encyclopedia? Artaxiad 09:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Also I don't who you are talking about Thanatosimii I never added those. Artaxiad 09:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ararat arev was a user with a strong POV to push who was recently banned for a violation of the 3rr rule. After this, he went rather beserk editing with anon accounts. They're rather easy to spot because the IPs are all similar. He kept reverting my delete, so I just decided to tag it such that editors not involved in that particular dark spot on this page's history will know not to interact with him. Thanatosimii 21:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah I know about that, thanks for clearing it up I was a little confused though. Artaxiad 21:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quote

Okay that quote is a folk-history version of Khorenatsi, its even referenced there, it needs to be removed its misleading again I want a response I know if I revert it GM will come rushing here but respond please now so we can do something. Artaxiad 23:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

You should not remove sourced info. If you have reliable sources stating otherwise, add them to the article as well. We need to report all existing views on the subject with proper attribution. Grandmaster 17:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not what you're doing, what you're doing can only be described as overkill. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

How is that applicable here? Grandmaster 18:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

You need a stronger source than the authorless Columbia Encyclopedia.

My reference is stronger key reference: I. M. Diakonoff, The Pre-History of the Armenian People (revised, trans. Lori Jennings), Caravan Books, New York (1984), ISBN 0-88206-039-2.

See Page 127

(The old Armenian nation was formed in the Upper Euphrates valley from the components - the Hurrians, the Luwians, and the Proto-Armenians (the Mushki, and possibly the Urumeans). Moreover the Hurrians and later the Urartians constituted the main mass of the nation and determined the basic line of biological succession, while the language of the nation, because of a certain historical situation, was taken over from the Proto-Armenians

See page 129 (From all that has been set forth it is evident that the history of the Armenian people is a direct continuation of the history not only of the Proto-Armenians, but also (and to no lesser degree) of the Hurrians, the Urartians, and the Luwians. The main mass of the Armenian nation consists of their descendants; there was historical when a person might speak Old Armenian, his father, grandfather, or great-grandfather was more likely to have been bilingual, while his forefather was a pure Hurrian or Urartian')

See page 130:

(The Mushkian (proto-Armenian speaking Indo-Europeans) kingdom of Alzi in the 12th to 9th centuries B.C., later included in Urartu, can also be viewed as one of the nuclei of the Armenian state, but to a certain extent we can view as such nuclei any Hurrian, Urartian, or Luwian kingdom in the Armenian Highland. These states were also created by ethnic groups which were not foreign to the Armenians, by people whose descendants merged with the Armenian nation, although at the time they themselves still spoke other languages).

I am asking you again, who is the author of your source? Also I am going to incorporate all the above quotes from Diakonoff. Artaxiad 18:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, nothing in your citation of Diakonoff say that Armenians are identical to Hurrians or other tribes, rather it says that all those tribes became later a component of Armenian people and absorbed by the latter or merged with. Let's not make up concusions. It was stated in the section of Ethnic composition that Armenians absorbed Urartian culture. Also on page "Armenia" you can find a quote saying that "all these people (Urartu and others) participated in the ethnogenesis of Armenian people (It seems that Eupator or someone else put that quotation). So, we state that Armenians contains and absorbed ancient peoples of Armenian plateau.

FYI - In Russian language book of Diakonoff (Дьяконов И.М. Предыстория армянского народа. Ереван, 1968, с. 202-203) the author claims that Armenians are a part of Phrygians.

Besides, various reputable encyclopedias, such as Columbia, were quoted in Wiki many times, so I see no reason why we should question that. As a matter of fact, Philip L. Kohl, Clare Fawcett book reference was removed from the page. Should we quote Diakonioff then pls. restore Kohl and Fawcett one's. It has many positive reviews.--Dacy69 22:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia requires English source whenever possible and only in the case of lack of materials we can refer to Russian. We do not lack materials in English. The book I quoted is from 1984 and either you are selectively quoting him or he has changed his position from 1968 to 1984. What Diakonoff states is very clear. Proto-Armenian speakers have at least 3000 years of presence in the region. He also says proto-Armenian speakers are only one component of Armenian nation. Urartu, while not a proto-Armenian language is also as equally part of the Armenian heritage. This is mentioned directly by Diakonoff. Also he says Urartuian language forms a component of the modern Armenian language which is significant and shows a symbiosis between proto-Armenians and Urartuians. Artaxiad 17:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, we speak about the same - we have stated already that Urartians participated in the ethnogenesis of Armenian people. The former were absorbed by the latter. They are not identical as you say ("Urartu, while not a proto-Armenian language is also as equally part of the Armenian heritage.") So, what do you want from current balanced version? Diakonoff never said that Armenian and Urartians were identical - he said that Urartians became a part of Armenian heritage. We mentioned that. But for origin of Armenians Diakonoff said that they emanated from Phrigians. And your quote does not denounce that. I would appreciate if you could bring quotation more that you did because as I told you, I suspect you just used secondary source.--Dacy69 19:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Back to the Columbia quote we should remove it theres no need, it is a legendary saying that has no scholarly importance what so ever. Artaxiad 21:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to hear dacys opinion on this also. Artaxiad 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add space to "werethe"

title says it all Jason Quinn 04:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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