Talk:Untranslatability

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Actually, general-purpose sections of Words hardest to translate must be moved here, leaving there only parts relevant to the list in question. (Unsigned comment from User:Mikkalai)

I agree. And I think the "Words hardest to translate" article should be deleted, since apart from the more general sections, it's only two completely subjective lists. Unencyclopedic, in my opinion. --BluePlatypus 11:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps all of this should move to untranslatability, creating a part within that for common untranslatable words, such as the ones listed on this page - thus eliminating the subjective nature of the ranking, but leaving the informative examples. Robef

merge per Robef --Kerowyn 22:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Structure of this article 2 The claim that "poppycock" is particularly untranslatable is balderdash. 3 "Double-Wide" 4 Litost 5 Lousy List 6 Title of the article 7 Puns 8 "X is to me" in Turkish 9 What about Davka? 10 Template removed 11 disputed 12 Nonsensical 'Today Translations' list

[edit] Structure of this article

The name of this article is not helpful in making and keeping it tidy, since "untranslatability" is a matter of gradation, and there is no definable boundary between "hard to translate" and "impossible to translate", something that might be pointed out in the opening paragraphs.

I think that the article should start with an overview (with examples) of the kinds of problems before going into the possible solutions. There are many more kinds of problems than just a lacuna, as shown in later examples. "Translating poetry" and "Translating puns" could be two subsections.

I don't understand the section heading "Theory". This does not seem more theoretical than any of the rest. If there is any "theoretical" section, it should deal with the theory of what can be considered a translation, which could be a concise rendering of Translation#Measuring success in translation. This would be useful as a reference for the merits of various translation devices.

Then the ground has been laid for a section discussing solutions, approaches, devices, tricks. This should also be illustrated with examples; the Hofstadter book has plenty of examples. I don't think we need a separate section on Specific examples. Lambiam^Talk 22:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The claim that "poppycock" is particularly untranslatable is balderdash.

While this statement is "cute", it doesn't inform the reader, especially non-native English speakers. Someone please add words commonly used as a translation for poppycock or mention that it is translated as "nonesense" or for that matter cannot be translated. VarunRajendran

Questions:

• What is "poppycock" supposed to mean? (please explain for an American English speaker)
• What does "balderdash" mean? I can only infer that it is synonymous with poppycock, correct?
• Why is "poppycock" said to be untranslatable?
• In your opinion, why is it *not* untranslatable?

-- )Patrick 22:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)(

• Isn't poppycock also a food similar to caramel corn? I see it regularly at delis. Eccomi 00:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the same person, but I can answer some of those questions.

1.) Poppycock is what I would translate as "ridiculous nonsense". It's a word you use to describe something that you think is so patently absurd that you refuse to believe it.

2.)Balderdash has roughly the same meaning as poppycock, but in my opinion, it has a slightly rougher, more forceful sound. Contextually speaking: That's balderdash! is what you would say if someone says something so absurd that you feel it's insulting your intelligence; That's poppycock! has the connotation more of you thinking they are silly for believing it, a more dissmissively derisive feel. They both have the same basic meaning, and I'm sure somebody somewhere uses them completely interchangeably, but to me, "poppycock", with it's sillier sound, dismisses something with the wave of a hand; "balderdash", with it's plethora of harsher consonants, smacks it over the head with a shovel. Both words of course can be used as an exclamation, though personally I hear "poppycock!" as an exclamation more often.

3.)I have no idea why anyone would think it was "untranslateable". What poppycock! :P If I had to translate it into a language which had no "direct" equivalent that covers the silly sound of "Poppycock!", I would simply use "Ridiculous!" (I don't think you could find a single human language that has no equivalent word for "ridiculous", honestly). If I had to translate "That's pure poppycock" with no other equivalent, I would use "That is pure nonsense". I think it's only the feel of the word that someone thinks can't be carried over. But you know, you could probably introduce a similarly silly-sounding, pompous-sounding neologism if the silliness itself was all that important. But really, it just means "complete and utter nonsense", which should be fairly easy to translate into pretty much any language imaginable.

By the way, Eccomi, yes, there is also a carmel corn-like snack food under the name Poppycock. I've had it before; as I recall, it's made with crushed hunks of popcorn with things like chocolate and carmel all over it. I'm pretty sure it's called "Poppycock" as a pun, because it includes POPcorn. ;) And the name is catchy... Runa27 17:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Double-Wide"

Not sure if this should count or not, because the word itself is easy to translate, i.e. a home trailer that is twice as wide as a normal home trailer. However, unless you are American living in particular areas, you'll never be able to explain the strange paradoxical pride-vs-shame "king amongst beggars" connotations that go along with it.

I hear you. If you have sources reliable for wikipedia about the topic, "Double-wide" might be an interesting article. `'mikkanarxi 02:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Litost

The czech word "Litost" which has been described in Milan Kundera's The Book of Laughter and Forgetting should be considered too.

Apparently no one has any objections, so go ahead and add the word to the article. You didn't explain what this word means, so this information by itself does not help much. (Patrick 22:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Lousy List

If we have to moderate the Today list with so many caveats, why don't we just delete it? It's not very useful.

I agree --Grstain 12:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title of the article

I think this article should be called, "untranslability into english", as it doesn't represent anyh other kind of untranslability between other pairs of languages, just whatever -> english.

I think that the problem arises from the examples and the addition of the Today list (see previous comment). By eliminating these, and concentrating "untranslatability", the article will recover its focus. Other articles, "Untranslatibility into English", "... into French", "... into German", etc. could be created if someone so desired. --Grstain 12:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The examples in the Today list, as well as the other examples in the article are examples of "untranslatability" which obviously occur in translation to English; please bear in mind that the article is written in English! By definition, therefore, examples must also be in English, the "Today List" is no exception, "lousy" or not. In addition, many examples of translation into English illustrate important translation concepts that also apply to translations between languages other than English. If you would like to make the article more universal, you may add examples of translation between other languages, but keep in mind that you must provide an explanation in English, and even if you do so, your example(s) would not have the same impact. To make the article more universal, I would suggest adding examples that apply to different dialects of English such as British English, Australian English, Canadian English, etc., and possibly even examples of translation difficulties between them. -- (Patrick 22:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

Well, the use of "da kine" in Hawaian English seems to be untranslatable, or multiply translateable; And for Americans, the many meanings of the British "Bob's yer uncle!" are mystifying. Rhinoracer 12:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Puns

I've added a reference to Asterix in this section, and will follow up with specific examples. Could anyone else think of good examples of pun translation/substitution?

I've had particular problems with this very conundrum while translating a French detective novel written in slang!Rhinoracer 14:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Added section on palindromes. Rhinoracer 14:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "X is to me" in Turkish

To my knowledge "I have X" is expressed by "Xim var" which would be translated as "my X exists". Am I wrong here or is this a mistranslation in the article?

[edit] What about Davka?

I would have thought that Hebrew word davka is up there among the most difficult words to translate.

[edit] Template removed

I've removed the templte castigating this article for innapropriate prose style. Rhinoracer 10:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] disputed

The one thing that this articul got wriht was that the translations depend on skill--but translators and linguists are utter dolts who are tools of the thousand-year-old corruption of English by the Roman, Norman, Francan, and Britan scum, who are not and never were Brets, so they hav no clue how to spæk or write English. I'v been banned from many boards because I wit too much and used it against their work and feelings, that I could take the world down in its delusions, the administrators and users on here and elsewhere a'being liars, libellers, and truth-haters who framed me for trian to wrihten their twisted understanding of the world. They bannd me because they are part of the deluded world, and they couldn't ken what I could because I reject all of their beliefs and had to make it knowen that they are wrong. Many other pages should still have my "disputed" tag, but the shysters-users coverd them up because they couldn't tell. I will take down the world for all of this.

Ilunga = Patsy/Rube; kirjoittaa = to writian, kirjoitella = to writellan; mones\quotus\wievielte\hoeveelste = whittof/whichof; io fui = I was, io sono stato = I have been; traktori vetää, ajomies vedättää, urakoitsija vedätyttää ja firma vedätätyttää = tractor pulls, driver pulls that, contractor such pulls yae firm so-such pulls; poshe'loste = tawdriness; estar = weran, ser = benan; fthano = I sneak/steal; doch = yet, eben = even/mere/riht/straiht, mal = (a meal/spell) nonse; zài = stand; Shlimazl = Seap; naa = eh; al-tahmâm = the []ach[e]/lack/alack; gezellig\hyggelig\gemütlich\heymish\mysig = swelly/cozily/chummily/nicely ("nice" a fraudulent Latinate word however; zel = sal = salle = st[e]all); saudade\kaiho = longdom/wistdom; pochemuchca = Whereforock/Whaddock; klloshar/clochard = bum/bellhard; Bob's your uncle = bingo/yah/jus; davca = only/notwithstanding/despite

By the way, un- means de- and not non- or in-, dolts.

-lysdexia 09:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please keep a cool temper, lysdexia. I wonder if you're putting us on? However, continuing in the above vein is not helpful, and I doubt your 'disputed' template is merited. However, let's leave it up for the moment, and we shall see what the consensus is. Rhinoracer 13:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What good is a cool temper when everyone in power abuses me? That damned admin kepd my block on for almost a year, and the en-wikilist admin bannd me from the list because I told the truth about what wrong the other users and admin did, and it was more important for them to keep the standard lige (Yes--lige, not "lie") than to be corrected which would go against what the whole world believes and reports. What they call "trolling" is truthful and open editing. Rdsmith4 calls my many corrections of factual mistakes in the science and language pages "trolling and disruption" and no admins give a damn that my block was never takene off for months and months so that the pages were left to rot. And either the author of the help page on how to appeal a block was a liar, or the admin of that wikilist was (some she), because she told me that that list was not the place for me to report the block.

Anyway, "exists at me" -> "bodes at me". Those translators should stick to English, not yet more Latin crappa (chaffe.. or is that chafts?). -lysdexia 11:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In other words, you admit to being a sockpuppet for a banned troll?

Comment - If you had the manners to read his response you would see that he does nothing of the kind.83.100.158.78 19:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply to comment - He does indeed. And I find your chiding me for my manners highly ironic Rhinoracer 12:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

As I read the above he says he has been called a troll - but refutes it - I am not privy to other infomation that could show that he/she was or was not a troll -based on the paragraph above. You may know better but twisting what he has said to interpret as a confession is inpolite.87.102.4.34 19:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Your English is idiolectic and untrustworthy. I am removing the 'disputed' template. You haven't disputed any of the asserted facts in the article. I am a professional translator, by the way, and I do not appreciate your blanket aspersions against me and my colleagues-- particularly as they come from one whose grasp of language is, to put it charitably, weak. Rhinoracer 17:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment - You use the language of the courts and no nothing of truth. How can you describe someone as 'untrustworthy' based on a paragraph.83.100.158.78 19:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply to comment - Please do not twist my words. I said his English was 'untrustworthy', not he himself. Rhinoracer 12:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't that amount to the same thing - an attack on his integrity? (sorry to waste your time.)87.102.4.34 19:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

In other words, you are another libeller. I hav no clue what a sockpuppet is, and I never troll, nor can anyone troll and correct at the same time. All of my translations dispute the "untranslatability" [sic sic: both at the "un-" and the "-ata-" forms] of yeir examples. My grasp of language is far broader and greater than yours, and your kind regularly makes claims that you can't and win't prove whilst a'making plenty of mistakes along the way to disprove any of your claim to understanding of the subject--as yours is that of the popular and vulgar (rowdy--see, translators can't even translat "vulgar" into English, so they have to stick with Latin) brand, you have no choosing but to stick with the defectulent speech that you cannot tell wriht from wrong within. -lysdexia 09:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the article makes no claims of untranslatability-- it merely reproduces a list from elsewhere. The existence of this list is not in dispute.

Second-- you have either invented or taken from obscure or obsolete dialects most of your proposed translations. They are neither Standard nor colloquial English.

Fourth-- most of the real English words you propose are either ill-suited, or unusable in evry sense of the word being translated.

Fifth-- your claim that "un" is not acceptable as a negator is untrue. Which means, by the way, "not true".

Sixth-- you are rude and insulting. Please cease. Rhinoracer 11:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment - you accused the above poster of being 'a sockpuppet of a band troll', then describe his comments a untrustworthy based on your percieved correct grammar.. Who here is insulting and who is being insulted?83.100.158.78 19:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply to comment - Again, it is his English which is untrustworthy. The discussion does not address grammar, but vocabulary and usage. As for who is the insulting party, I am not the one calling people dolts and liars.

I have no interest whatsoever in a flame war, or indeed in discussing this matter. This man is a language crank. I am sorry if that appears insulting, but a cursory glance at his proposals or at any of his linguistic revisions of articles throughout Wikipedia confirm this. Cranks are causing enormous damage to thousands of articles. To my mind, they are a far greater threat to the Wikipedia project than vandals.They should be confronted firmly. Rhinoracer 12:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

1. How could it make no claims whether or not it's a secondary source?

2. From Standard English:

Standard English is a controversial term used to denote a form of written and spoken English that is thought to be normative for educated users. There are no set rules or vocabulary for "Standard English" because, unlike languages such as French, Spanish or Dutch, English does not have a governing body (see Académie française, Real Academia Española, Dutch Language Union) to establish usage.

Yes, I'm the only person in the world who uses this speech, which happend after early 2006 when I shutd myself from the computer and all outward communication--but still had the TV on--for several months, that after some research into the language pages, dictionary-diving for English and Latin ètumolòjies, and some unique success with perfect translations after many needed rescues from dead bits of words. Over those months I went mead (mæd) as I heard how often some English-speaker said some foreign word or name wrong, as well as used some common English words wrong, and overall spoke gibberish and nonsense with all the wrong parts of speech we inheritd, and I had no way to tell them off. So I plan to write ae emmail with several declarations of war against all nations, that covers many subjects also outside of speech.

3. most -> mest; You, like everyone else, do not distinguish a superlativ from a collectiv. (This is one of my meadly points.) You must give specifics of what's wrong with those.

4. Wrong, "untrue" does not mean "not true"; it means "away truth". "not true" means, well, "neither away nor again truth", as in it hasn't to do with truth. The opposite of untrue is not true, but antrue--devrai and revrai, in your Francish. "not true" may be otherwise "nottrue" or "truefree"--nonvrai ou sansvrai.

5. You calld me a troll.

-lysdexia 19:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

From reading the above, I fear it's worse, and sadder, than your being a troll. However, no harm done so long as you keep your idosyncratic revisionism of the English language off the main page. Rhinoracer 09:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If you don't answer the above--any of it, as you can't--I'll consider you the troll who harms pages with your misinformation. I'll put the tag back up where it belongs. By the way, I can't "being" anything. -lysdexia 11:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed your unjustified 'disputed' template. You have not given a reason for it. Please cease your crank attacks, which go beyond trolling to vandalism. Rhinoracer 19:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

None of the corrections are vandalism. All of my translations are the reason for the template. You do not understand the subject and cannot explain your criticisms of my revision, so you stop. -lysdexia 14:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Your translations do not hold up under scrutiny. I'm removing the template until such time as you can justify it. Rhinoracer 14:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You cannot support any of your claims against them, so they are the justification. You did not present a "consensus" by your first reply. The text stays wrong, and Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute still applies. You are a liar. -lysdexia 08:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not a he, Rhinoracer the innomerate. And you still hav no support for your criticism of my vocabulary. I could find three mistakes in the world's grammar for every one that you believe is my mistake. The world's understanding is a sham. -lysdexia 5:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsensical 'Today Translations' list

Why on earth is this list still doing the rounds? Does Wikipedia aspire to be a serious scholarly resource or not? Please read this debunking of that list by someone who knows what they are talking about. 86.136.92.2 12:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

That debunking is rather weak, to my mind...but if you feelstrongly about the matter, Be Bold and delete the whole mess. Rhinoracer 19:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I have. — Grstain | Talk 16:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I added another sentence about the german word "doch", but I'm not 100% sure if the translation is the best. You get the meaning, but maybe someone could take a look and make a better one, if needed.

Also a list of "unique" words in different lenguages would be fun, but it should be on a seperate place to keep things clean.