Talk:University of Virginia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject ACC, an effort to expand and improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Atlantic Coast Conference. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
A mortarboard This article is part of WikiProject Universities, an attempt to standardise coverage of Universities and colleges. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Peer review University of Virginia has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Virginia, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Virginia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Good articles University of Virginia (reviewed version) has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do.
If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.
UVA
 This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Virginia, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on people, places and things associated with the University of Virginia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the assessment scale. (add assessment comments)
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance within the University of Virginia WikiProject.
Portal:Architecture
 Architecture Portal
This article covers subjects of relevance to Architecture. To participate, visit the Wikipedia:WikiProject Architecture for more information. The current monthly improvement drive is Castle.
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the assessment scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the assessment scale.
To-do list for University of Virginia: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh


Here are some tasks you can do:

    Contents

    [edit] Was it Really the First?

    Throughout the time I've been at the University I've heard from students how it was the "first to separate church and education" and I'm not sure how accurate this statement is. While it was an intentional move by Jefferson to separate the University from the church Benjamin Franklin also did this back in 1740 with the University of Pennsylvania. Granted theology was taught at Penn from the beginning but the basis for the education was supposed to be far removed from Harvard, Yale and William and Mary which focused on clerical education. A quote from the UPenn article: "Franklin's new school would not focus on education for the clergy. He advocated an innovative concept of higher education, one which would teach both the ornamental knowledge of the arts and the practical skills necessary for making a living and doing public service". It seems to me that we've taken the controversial history of the University and its relationship to "the church" as suggestestive that we were "the first"; a suggestion I believe to be unmerited. Typically I'd just edit it out but I know somebody would think my edit inaccurate so I'm starting the discussion here. We're a school full of tradition but it's kind of silly to "create" new ones because we're uneducated.ESMtll 17:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

    As someone who attended both Yale and Penn, I would have to agree that Penn does take priority in this respect, since Franklin was specifically concerned with providing a liberal education to future businessmen, not ministers. Moreover, I object to the claim that other schools -- Yale and Harvard, for example -- were still functioning as "seminaries" by 1819. That term suggests that their sole function was theological education and the training of ministers. By 1819, this was really not the case.68.72.81.44 14:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Good Article Nominee

    I was trying to find a good reason why this article shouldn't be a "Good Article," so I hunted through the talk page and analyzed the criteria, but couldn't find a reasonable objection. Hopefully this process can happen again so this article can get the commendation it deserves. Let the process begin .. Pg8p 09:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)pg8p

    [edit] The University

    Some fine work calling my beloved alma mater "the University" as often as possible. Good show, whoever is responsible! John Kenney 08:11 25 May 2003 (UTC)

    "The University" comes from a time when the UVA was the only University to speak of in Virginia. As such, when faculty published, they would close in this manner:
    Thomas Jefferson
    The University
    Charlottesville, Virginia
    Look in one of the Virginia Law Reviews to see an example.
    P.H.Sweet III CLAS 2001

    [edit] Michigan Self-Promotion on this page

    I disagree with editing to suggest that the rivalry for *best* public university is three-way between UVa, Berkeley and Michigan. Whereas both UVa and Berkeley have individually been ranked #1 and sometimes tied, Michigan has not (either individually or tied with another school).

    Agreed. Michigan has never been #1. UVa and Berkeley have a monopoly on that battle in USN, partially due to Michigan accepting over 60% of its applicants. –Uris 14:31, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Secretary General of EU

    There is no such title as a Secretary General of the European Union

    Hello 160.39.42.99, this was adapted from the Wikipedia page on Javier Solana. It reads as follows:

    "Javier Solana (born July 14, 1942), the 1995-1999 NATO Secretary General, is, since the fall of 1999, Secretary General of both the European Union and the 10 nation permanent member Western European Union." However, it appears that the official title is Secretary General of the Council of the European Union, and so the page here now states this. I'll leave it to another to change Solana's page. Uris 15:02, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Misc

    Uris, what tidbit did you consider vandalism in the 26 Sep edits? Biased and sometimes a bit off-topic, none of them struck me as particularly scandalous or, well, vandalous. EEMeltonIV 23:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

    Sorry, I didn't see this comment until just now! Lawn rooms were never considered "undesirable" at the university, Jefferson's plans for the Rotunda were more than scant, etc. etc. It wasn't vandalism in retrospect, but not good faith editing. By the way, if you comment someone's Talk page, they'll see your questions the next time they log into Wikipedia, and it's a better way to get a quick answer. Sorry for the giant delay! –Uris 14:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Student groups and external links

    We have listed only official groups in "external links" Jim Apple 18:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Work hard/play hard

    The work hard/play hard bit is trite and tired. As you can see, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=work+hard+play+hard, work hard/play hard is a bit of self-promoting self-description most often used by those who do neither. (Further, if UVa ever was meaningfully described as a work hard/play hard kind of place, when did that end to merit the adjective erstwhile?)

    Cka3n 13:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    It was likely me who wrote the "work hard, play hard" bit, but after hearing (seeing) your case against it here I can say I am convinced you are right about it. –Uris 14:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC) Actually, looking at the edits, my original mention of "work hard, play hard" was probably removed long ago... I was wondering what you meant by the adjective erstwhile! –Uris 16:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    The version I edited included the line "Student life at U.Va. has been noted nationally for both its erstwhile attitude of work hard/play hard ... ." In addition to my qualms about the work hard/play hard line, I wasn't sure why it was an erstwhile attitude. Of course, when you remove the entire line, you elide that particular word choice problem. I hope that clarifies things - thanks. Cka3n 00:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Mistagging images

    Be careful when tagging images. Jim Apple 17:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Red tape?

    Is there a source for UVa's lack of red tape? Jim Apple 16:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    UVa's ratio of staff to faculty/students is among the lowest in the nation. I'll look for an online source about it. The knowledge was initially learned back when the "History of UVa" course was 4 credits instead of 1 and I was lucky enough to take it... UVa has also had this philosophy from the beginning. Jefferson dispised the bureaucracy of William & Mary at the time, even going so far as to have no college President at that time. Pretty interesting stuff, IMO. –Uris 17:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    EDIT: I changed "minimal red tape" to "minimal bureaucracy" because they are not quite the same thing. –Uris 17:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    I will remove the assertion, then, until we have a source. Jim Apple 17:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] "[Tt]he University"

    UVa licenses the production of contact stickers (for the inside of car windows) that read "The University". Jim Apple 04:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Mr./Ms./Dr.

    "Professors are traditionally addressed as "Mr." or "Ms." rather than "Dr.""

    Does anyone really call their prof. "Mr." or "Ms."? In undergrad and grad, I also used (and heard) "Professor" so-and-so -- never Dr., never Mr., never Ms.

    Corroboration/dope slap, anyone?

    I called them "Professor" and "Mr." or "Ms." I never called them "Dr." but I doubt it would have offended anyone or really even much noticed. Omnibus 22:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
    I called them professor as well. Rarely did i call them doctor unless they were medical. Curious that at my new institution, VCU/Medical College of Virginia, every which person with a doctorate in this or that calls themself doctor, including the president of VCU, who insists on being addressed as Dr. Trani in all communications. My brother, whose alma mater was Columbia, also noted that few went by title of doctor, unless medical. I wonder if faculty and administrators at VCU are compensating for some insecurity . . .

    P.H.SWEETIII CLAS 2001

    I always used "Mr." or "Ms." -- "Professor" always sounded pretentious, plus it had more syllables.

    Longstanding tradition at UVa is to call them "Mr." or "Mrs."

    This is bunk, there is no tradition like this and I've been around the University ~23 years. People call each other whatever they want. 128.143.38.45 18:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
    Without rendering any judgment on the merit of the nomenclature, I definitely knew of such a "tradition" while I was at UVa in the past decade. In my experience, this "tradition" existed for the most part in legend, in some part in the undergraduate experience, and virtually not at all anywhere else on grounds. I vaguely recall some on-grounds publication running a UVa jargon column right around move-in referring to this. Cka3n 19:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

    Although probably not adhered to near as much in the graduate schools for a number of reasons ("Dr." is usually inappropriate in law school and absolutely appropriate in medical school and therefore presence/absence is impercieveable; much less "tradition indoctrination" for graduate students; etc.) While certainly not universal, it is adhered to fairly closely by undergraduate students. Whether that adherence is by choice (because they know of the tradition) or by chance (they simply prefer to refer to professors as "professor"), the nomenclature does exist. Also, for what it's worth, the tradition is mentioned frequently (at least in recruitment materials) and does purportedly have roots in Mr. Jefferson himself. That said, "Professor" is almost the exclusive manifestation of this--I have never heard of a faculty member referred to as "Mr." or "Ms." by a student. And, to address the Dec. 20 concern by the IP address user, I'm assuming that those 23 years are as staff/faculty of some type and this tradition is limited to what students call faculty, not what staff/faculty call each other.--Velvet elvis81 21:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

    I graduated from the College in 1995 and everyone I knew used "Mr." or "Ms." except when we were addressing Gerald Fogarty in the religious studies department; because he is an ordained Jesuit, he was universally known as Fr. Fogarty. (I recall that a few suck-ups addressed Ray Bice as "Dr.," and one friend of mine tried to curry favor by addressing Mark Morford as "Dr." until Morford told him to quit it.) But I never heard ANYONE say "Professor" until I went off to law school at Duke. I think part of the distinction is that some people were not professors. For example, I took Julian Bond's class on the civil rights movement, and "Professor Bond" would have been incorrect because he was a "lecturer," i.e., someone who had not yet been made even an Associate Professor (a tenure-track position that is lower than a tenured professor). So he was always "Mr. Bond," and the TAs used that form too. 1995hoo 15:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Looks like you guys haven't read this

    Wikipedia:Avoid academic boosterism

    Au contraire. This article neither makes vague references about prestige nor buries the user in facts. UPDATE: Ok, so it did contain a vague/uncited sentence or two about the law school's prestige that had been added anonymously in the past 48 hours. I have deleted it. Omnibus 22:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Some more info

    Is it possible to add some more info on the University's reputation?

    Reputations are hard to quantify or qualify. Saying the University is "one of the most prestigious universities in the United States" would be a good example of academic boosterism mentioned above. Omnibus 22:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
    I thought noting that William Faulkner called it a Public Ivy was a good, neutral way of saying something about its reputation.... evidently Omnibus does not agree. However, I can't find a source for Faulkner calling it that, so maybe it's just as well gone. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
    P.S. I think "The University of Virginia is notable in American history for being the first to offer academic specializations in areas now common, such as Astronomy, Philosophy, and Architecture, as well as being the first to separate church and education" is a lot more important than ranking sixth in its production of Rhodes scholars... Dpbsmith (talk) 02:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
    Yep, you're right. I've moved the Rhodes Scholars mention from the opening to "Academics". Also, the Faulkner quote would be okay except that, as you say, it is hard to come up with a source for it. Omnibus 21:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
    Thanks. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


    [edit] Reputation for Intimidation

    If you're thinking about attending UVa, you might want to consider this...

    “Everyone here is pretty attractive, guys and girls. There are virtually no fat people. Everyone runs and works out at the gyms. The gyms are really great, by the way!”

    “The guys are, for the most part, pretty preppy. A lot are very Southern; it’s a mix of hot and not. There are lots of pretty girls. I think everyone at Virginia works out.”

    Decide for yourself if you're up to the challenge!

    from the College Prowler guidebook; University of Virginia - Off the Record

    Yes, I flipped through this book yesterday while helping my sister sell back her old textbooks. It's a collection of random, unattributed quotes and overall seems generally useless. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EEMeltonIV (talk • contribs).
    College Prowler is crud. They find student quotes and take the ones they want. It's totally useless, except I think it has a restaurant section. That said, UVA is the "Hottest for Fitness" or something in some survey. --ZachPruckowski 21:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
    There was a guy called "The Collegetown Prowler" who was looking in people's windows while they slept at Cornell.... I wonder if that's how this "Prowler" gathered their information. JDoorjam 20:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
    Wait, wait, that was the Collegetown Creeper. Prowlers everywhere, I apologize for slandering your name. JDoorjam 20:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Are any of these 1856 phrases still current?

    From A Collection of College Words and Customs. How many of these 1856 phrases and traditions still survive?

    BOS. At the University of Virginia, the desserts which the students, according to the statutes of college, are allowed twice per week, are respectively called the Senior and Junior Bos.
    CURL. In the University of Virginia, to make a perfect recitation; to overwhelm a Professor with student learning.
    DIKED. At the University of Virginia, one who is dressed with more than ordinary elegance is said to be diked out. Probably corrupted from the word decked, or the nearly obsolete dighted.
    FEBRUARY TWENTY-SECOND. At Shelby, Centre, and Bacon Colleges, in Kentucky, it is customary to select the best orators and speakers from the different literary societies to deliver addresses on the twenty-second of February, in commemoration of the birthday of Washington.
    GRADUATE IN A SCHOOL. A degree given, in the University of Virginia, to those who have been through a course of study less than is required for the degree of B.A.
    In the University of Virginia, students on entering are sometimes initiated into the ways of college life by very novel and unique ceremonies, an account of which has been furnished by a graduate of that institution. "The first thing, by way of admitting the novitiate to all the mysteries of college life, is to require of him in an official communication, under apparent signature of one of the professors, a written list, tested under oath, of the entire number of his shirts and other necessary articles in his wardrobe. The list he is requested to commit to memory, and be prepared for an examination on it, before the Faculty, at some specified hour. This the new-comer usually passes with due satisfaction, and no little trepidation, in the presence of an august assemblage of his student professors. He is now remanded to his room to take his bed, and to rise about midnight bell for breakfast. The 'Callithumpians' (in this Institution a regularly organized company), 'Squallinaders,' or 'Masquers,' perform their part during the livelong night with instruments 'harsh thunder grating,' to insure to the poor youth a sleepless night, and give him full time to con over and curse in his heart the miseries of a college existence. Our fellow-comrade is now up, dressed, and washed, perhaps two hours in advance of the first light of dawn, and, under the guidance of a _posse comitatus_ of older students, is kindly conducted to his morning meal. A long alley, technically 'Green Alley,' terminating with a brick wall, informing all, 'Thus far shalt thou go, and no farther,' is pointed out to him, with directions 'to follow his nose and keep straight ahead.' Of course the unsophisticated finds himself completely nonplused, and gropes his way back, amidst the loud vociferations of 'Go it, green un!' With due apologies for the treatment he has received, and violent denunciations against the former _posse_ for their unheard-of insolence towards the gentleman, he is now placed under different guides, who volunteer their services 'to see him through.' Suffice it to be said, that he is again egregiously 'taken in,' being deposited in the Rotunda or Lecture-room, and told to ring for whatever he wants, either coffee or hot biscuit, but particularly enjoined not to leave without special permission from one of the Faculty. The length of his sojourn in this place, where he is finally left, is of course in proportion to his state of verdancy."
    PROFICIENT. The degree of Proficient is conferred in the University of Virginia, in a certificate of proficiency, on those who have studied only in certain branches taught in some of the schools connected with that institution.
    PUBLIC DAY. In the University of Virginia, the day on which "the certificates and diplomas are awarded to the successful candidates, the results of the examinations are announced, and addresses are delivered by one or more of the Bachelors and Masters of Arts, and by the Orator appointed by the Society of the Alumni."--_Cat. of Univ. of Virginia_.
    This occurs on the closing day of the session, the 29th of June.
    SWELL BLOCK. In the University of Virginia, a sobriquet applied to dandies and vain pretenders.

    Dpbsmith (talk) 01:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

    Almost none of 'em! The Curl is still evident only by the title of the yearbook, which has retained its title since the mid-19th century when these phrases were apparently common. You can guess what a Cork was. Public Day is still not called "Graduation" but now goes by Finals and is now held at the beginning of May, nearly two months prior to June 29. Omnibus 07:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


    [edit] Easters

    This article makes no mention of Easters, nor can I find a separate Wikipedia entry for it. Is it appropriate for this entry?

    I feel like it's significant enough to mention, though I don't know enough about Easters to add anything myself. Uvaduck 18:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

    Any mention of student life without a brief description of Easters is ridiculous. Chris Delmar Class of 84

    Easters was abolished after someone died in a drunken car accident. We have Springfest now, which is a huge free concert (this year it's Brand New, and a bunch of smaller bands) --ZachPruckowski 16:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

    Ok, I gave Springfest and Easters a brief shot. I'll check for something more concrete later this week, I know some people who have worked at UVA for like 20 years or so.

    [edit] Alumni user category and userbox

    For anyone interested, there is now a Wikipedia UVa alumni user category.

    Category:Wikipedians_by_alma_mater:_University_of_Virginia

    Additionally: in commemoration of UVa's recent domination on the athletic field (this is sarcasm), I pieced together a userbox. Simply drop in {{user UVA}}

    EEMeltonIV 06:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Honor System

    What of the University's Honor System? Is this appropriate for this entry?

      Yes, it is important. UVa's Honor system is known throughout the country for its high standards. it has served the basis for many honor systems throughout the country.

    [edit] "The University" and "The College"

    I'm wondering whether people are parsing it wrong when they interpret "The University" to mean "The University," i.e. the only university in the world worth mentioning. I'm thinking perhaps it means "The University," as opposed to "The College" (of William and Mary). Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 17:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

    It probably has little to do with W&M because the tradition there doesn't go back nearly as far. In the 1960s nobody at William & Mary called it "The College" but students at UVa often called it "The University". To know why the tradition began, you'd have to ask someone who was there in the 19th century, and they probably are hard to track down.

    [edit] Secret societies source

    FYI, the source linked for the "other noteworthy secrete societies" is an all-student group, and their historical database has a spattering of inaccuracies and old data. I point this out because in the previous call to cite these groups, someone specifically suggested a *non-student* newspaper. If a non-student newspaper ain't so hot, another student group may be just as questionable. After all, the Guide Service has just as many history majors and UVa buffs as The Cavalier Daily. EEMeltonIV 21:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

    I'd certainly like to see a better source. And I was just about to say that if someone were to delete this material, I, for one, would certainly not restore it. But to my mind there's a big difference between a dubious source and no source.
    However, before doing that, those interested in preserving this material should take a few shots at searching on the name of the secret societies in Google Books. I tried Eli Banana and rather to my surprise got three hits... and at least one of them, Howell, Clark (1926). History of Georgia. S. J. Clarke. , certainly looks solid to me. "While at the university Mr. Anderson was a member of the Alpha Tau Omega fraternity, which he joined in 1879, and in 1883 he became a member of the society known as the Eli Banana, composed of the leading students of the various Greek letter fraternities."
    So, there's one down, three to go. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Graduate placement

    This section makes precisely two closely related points: graduates of University of Virginia have stellar success in gaining admissions to a) medical schools, b) top postgraduate programs. It does so by citing two sources. The point is worth making, but there is no particular reason to spend more than two or three sentences making it. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

    Also:

    In the paragraph

    The Wall Street Journal conducted a study[1] of "feeder schools" to top 5 graduate programs and it yielded nearly identical results to the annual U.S. News and World Report survey for the University. Both studies rank the University of Virginia as the top university in its state and #2 among doctorate granting public universities, yet the criteria for the two ranking systems are unrelated. With the addition of liberal arts colleges and other non-doctoral institutions in the Wall Street Journal ranking (which are excluded from its category in U.S. News and World Report), the University's overall rank was #33 nationwide.

    I'm confused as to what is being said and why U. S. News and World Report is even being mentioned. The only reference here is to U.S. News and World Report itself, so I can't check what U. S. News is saying. Is this in fact citing a U. S. News ranking on graduate placement? If so, let's have the citation.

    Nor do I understand what the point is of bringing in "doctorate granting public universities" as the universe of discourse. In evaluating a institution's ability to prepare undergraduates for entrance to the top graduate programs in the nation, what earthly relevance is there in whether or those undergraduates happen to be attending an institution which has a graduate school itself?

    And what's the business about "the two ranking systems being unrelated?" Does UVa ranking first in two not-very-closely-related measures mean that it's automatically first in everything? If not, what does it mean?

    Unless this can be clarified, I don't think any of the U. S. News material belongs here. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] "Academical village in winter" picture

    I love it... every time I glance at this page I think how good it is... it makes me almost think I could step into the picture if I tried hard. Makes me wish I'd attended UVA! Dpbsmith (talk) 16:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Albemarle County vs. City of Charlottesville

    Anyone know that most of The University of Virginia is actually located in Albemarle County? With the exception of the hospital and a few other buildings. A somewhat minor point, but how should it be noted?

    [edit] Virginia Advocate

    Some one added a paragraph about the Virginia Advocate into this article. It's at best the 3rd most heavily read magazine on grounds, and I highly, highly doubt it's that high. We don't mention the Cavalier Daily or the Declaration which are numbers 1 and 2. If someone wants to make a "student newspapers section", then maybe that's reasonable, but otherwise we have to have a standard for what groups get the mention in the article. If there was a sub-article or something for student activities or student publication, that'd be more reasonable. --ZachPruckowski 16:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

    I was the 'some one'. As mentioned in the edit summary, it was a merge from The Virginia Advocate as there had been a merge tag on that page for some time, and it looked like the merge was sensible. If the material isn't going to live in this page, either the redirect from The Virginia Advocate needs removing, or the material needs restoring to The Virginia Advocate. However, if the material isn't notable enough to get a mention in this page, it seems highly unlikely to deserve a page of its own. As has been shown, I have little knowledge of the subject, so defere to those that do to resolve the matter. Kcordina 17:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
    Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as offensive. I thought it was just someone trying to stick a random student group into the main article as astroturfing. My mistake, and my apologies. Personally, I think we need a student activities sub-page. That's really the only way to do it, because there are some (like the Declaration or Virginia Advocate) that deserve something, but not a separate page or a paragraph in the student activities section by themselves. How about a section on student publications? --ZachPruckowski 17:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Article size

    This article is longer than optimal. Some sections (history and grounds) could perhaps be moved to their own pages, but don't need to be included fully on the main page. Parudox 04:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Student life

    Tagged the "Studen Life" section, as it is poorly written and organized, and seems to be rife with unsubstatiated comments such as so-and-so library "gets high marks" that are neither properly cited or are particularly pertinent to an encyclopedia. beekman 20:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] GA status

    Err, unfortunently, I see several problems with this article. Firstly, the impression I get from this is an increadibly favorable POV almost to the point of advertising, I mean look at some of these sentences :

    • The Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, considered among many as both spiritual and humanitarian leaders, graced The Grounds with their presence in 1998,
    • University officials swiftly approached celebrity architect Stanford White to rebuild the Rotunda
    • These walls are called "serpentine" because they run a sinusoidal course, one that lends strength to the wall and allows for the wall to be only one brick thick, another example evidencing Jefferson's combination of aesthetics with utility.
    • Thanks to a Charter initiative that recently passed the Virginia legislature, the University — and any other public universities in the state that choose to do so — will have greater autonomy over its own affairs.
    • Many of America's political leaders have gravitated to the University of Virginia over the years.

    And well, it just looks weird. And the whole article is filled with all these weird little bits of praise from various sources over stuff, and while its all well and good that that kind of stuff is verifiable, i've never seen a school article with so much praise-type stuff in it before, it looks very off and seems to give it quite a slant.

    Also, there don't seem to be too many references for a whole lot of bits of information in this article, which doesn't seem right at all. Homestarmy 00:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

    I edited sentences 1, 3, and 5 to make them a bit more "standard". 2 and 4 look to be fine the way they are. Uris 17:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Black graduation rates

    The article previously explained U.Va.'s rate by comparing it to four Ivy League schools that had lower rates, quoting from an online article.[[2]] It is not clear when that article was published, but it is no longer accurate, and the very next issue of the same journal (JBHE) published a list showing U.Va.'s rate lower than two of the institutions named in the quotation.[[3]] The other two schools are not mentioned but presumably remain below U.Va. I have changed the article (poorly) to reflect this. Editing 20:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Bias in the description of the 1976 Rotunda alterations

    The removal of Stanford White's work was not a "restoration," and working from "original plans" is of dubious value when those plans consist of one or two undetailed sketches of a circular room. The 1976 destruction of an important interior designed by one of the country's greatest architects and its replacement with a conjectural replication of an earlier interior using ordinary acoustical ceiling tiles is not a "restoration" and is not respected today by historians or architects. Should some of the arguable shortsightedness of the demolition be brought out? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Editing (talk • contribs).

    There were archival photographs to work from as well as original "plans"... I think it's pretty much fine the way it is, and I highly doubt that the Rotunda is "not respected today by historians or architects".
    I will change the phrase "original plans" to "original sketches and historical photographs" however. Uris 16:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] University Infobox

    Sorry to vent some frustration, but this is the second time that infobox template has been reverted back to a HTML infobox by an anonymous editor. I know that UVA alums and students are proud of their university and want a distinctive look for their university, but before it is changed back again they should consider that the template is used by 2000+ Universities and provides a consistent look and feel for all universities. 40+ country templates and several hundred other HTML templates were consolidated into this single template. It is the single university infobox. All of the fields covered in the specialized template are covered. If you have a complaint about the look, bring it up with the main template, don't change it back here. That W&M has a HTML template is irrelevant, it will also be changed to the new template. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

    The best thing you can do is to go ahead and change the other Virginia schools such as WM, VT, JMU, etc. since those are the ones people here are most likely to have seen, not the 2000+ others. Uris 16:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
    This has been completed. Uris 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Too many images?

    Anyone else think there are too many images in this article? Especially since a few of the generic scenery photos are available on Wikipedia Commons. Uvaduck 15:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    The Commons exists so that the images are available to the article in all languages instead of just English. It isn't there to store all the images instead of having them in the original article. In other words, they are there because they should be in the article(s), not because they should not. I think a couple images per section or so are warranted, it could even stand one or two more images IMO. Uris 16:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
    Update: The "Pavilion Gardens" pic looked a little weird in its placement on the list of schools. I moved it down to the bottom of a section that had no photos. Uris 19:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Former Good Article Candidate

    When fully improved and ready, this article should actually be nominated for featured article status (which University of Michigan and Michigan State University have already attained), not good article status. The criteria are essentially the same, except that featured articles should be longer and comprehensive, while good articles are generally under 20kb. This article is currently 39kb, quite comprehensive. Uris 21:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Elitist rep

    Facts from recent edit:

    1 - The University's students have a reputation for preppiness and elitism, especially for a public university. 2 - The Office of Admissions has increased the minority enrollment. 3 - Full grants are guaranteed up to $40,000 in family income through AccessUVa.]] 4 - Facts 2 and 3 are efforts to combat the stereotype of 1.

    Qualms:

    1 - How has minority enrollment been increased? I'm not knowledgable enough, but the writing almost suggests that the office of admissions has taken the stance "We need more minorities" and is doing something about it, which, depending on the minority and the mechanism, is illegal. Is this a change in admissions policies that has a secondary (albeit perhaps intended) effect on minority admissions? If so, what is the actual change? Is this a marketing change? If so, is admissions the office doing that? (I.e., is there a source for this?)

    2 - I don't think that is how accessuva works. From the website, "Replaces need-based loans with grants in the financial aid packages of low-income students — those whose family income is equivalent to 200 percent of the federal poverty line or less. Caps the amount of need-based loans offered to any student at approximately 25 percent of U.Va.’s in-state cost of attendance over four years, and will meet all need above that amount with grants. All students, regardless of state residency, will receive the in-state cap level."

    So even if you are below that 2X the federal poverty line (which happens to be $20,000 for a family of four *this year*), you will not get a full grant ride. Indeed, you will go through the regular process, and whatever need-based loans you would have been awarded, UVa will substitute grant money. I think the amount varies by family size, by year, and, for a few of them, by state.

    3 - Is there any source for 4, the fact that 2 and 3 are efforts to combat a stereotype? Might they not be efforts to combat the same access problems virtually all peer universities are facing.

    Cka3n 20:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

    1. Minority enrollment has increased, primarily by increasing the acceptance rate of minority applicants, as well as better marketing in attempts to increase applications. The former is not illegal except in California and Texas. UVa didn't fall behind UC-Berkeley in the US News rankings until Berkeley was no longer able to give preference to minority applicants because of Proposition 209. UVa still does, and in a large way. But I've changed this wording to state that minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, which is more pertinent given the other changes below.
    2. I've changed the wording to reflect the difference between the two arrangements.
    3. I've changed the wording here, too.
    (4. I've changed "preppiness" to "upper class" which is more neutral and verifiable.)
    This is how it reads now: The University's students have a reputation for being upper class and sometimes elitist, especially for a public university. Yet minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level through AccessUVa.
    Let me know what you think.
    Uris 20:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, but I think that race-based admissions schemes can violate the Constitution (e.g., I am pretty sure that a flat-out quota would be illegal). On the other hand, I know that the federal courts have green-lighted more broad approaches (e.g., I think, considering race as one factor in a broad evaluation). So if UVa says, "We're going to increase the minority admissions rate from 20 to 30," I think that might be more likely to be barred than if UVa says, "We're going to give additional consideration to under-represented minorities." Cka3n 21:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    I'm all for diversity, or I wouldn't live in New York City, but the latest African-American acceptance rate at UVa was a whopping 58%... considerably higher than it was 10 years ago if I'm not mistaken, and compared to something like 33% for Caucasians. How they worded the more aggressive policy, I'm not sure, but it was a case of consciously raising the acceptance rate for these applicants. Uris 23:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    Actually, I looked into it a bit more and it was 60% in 2001, so it's actually remained pretty constant at least in the past 5 years. Uris 00:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
    I've changed the wording further due to concerns about NPOV. It now reads The University's students have a reputation for being from upper class and white collar backgrounds. Yet tuition rates are low, minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level through AccessUVa. Uris 15:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Central College

    Although I am pretty sure UVa is not "also called ... Central College" (even if that reference belongs in a history section), I wanted to confirm that here in Talk before I removed that portion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cka3n (talk • contribs).

    "Central College" was the original name for the instution that later became the University of Virginia; no one today calls it "Central College" --EEMeltonIV 21:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    Yep... not called that today, and possibly wasn't even called that when the first classes began. Was called that primarily during its construction as far as I know. Uris 20:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Race relations

    I took out the specific Lundy material but left the general statement and link.

    • If we list Lundy, should we list everything (95% rhetorical question)? The Serena-Venus Williams Halloween blackface thing comes to mind, as do the pimps and chickens (or something like that) party, Lawn dry erase board notes, and good ol' (that's sarcasm) Kappa Alpha's lynching scene in front of their house during my first year.
    • Surely there is more recent CD or Hook or C'ville fodder to dole out for additional citation(s)
    • Would this topic be more appropriate in the student life section?

    --EEMeltonIV 18:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] UVA, W&M, & VMI

    Is there any source for this: "This tradition dates back to when there were only three public institutions of higher education: The University, The College and The Institute (The University of Virginia, The College of William and Mary and The Virginia Military Institute, respectively)."

    UVA, W&M, and VMI were certainly not the first three public institutions of higher education (UNC's founding being the first public school founding), and W&M was not public in any sense until 1888 (almost 140 years after peer private school W&L was founded and 16 years after VT began to stir). See the respective wiki pages, inter alia, for sources. Hence, I say this is urban legend, and so I am deleting it.

    I would wonder what the source for that is, but could the rationale perhaps be the first three institutions of higher education in Virginia? MessengerAtLWU (talk | contribs) 17:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
    I think W&L predates UVA and VMI, as its predecessor Augusta Academy was founded in 1749. Cka3n 18:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
    Ah, didn't know that. MessengerAtLWU (talk | contribs) 19:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

    == Admissions Standards ==

    I seem to remember more about average SATs and such in earlier versions of the page. Maybe that sort of thing gets cut for boosterism. Anyway, it might be worth mentioning in such a section that UVA does not require an SAT score for all students who apply for matriculation during the spring (rather than the fall) semester. This exception is mostly or always granted to athletes.

    This is obviously false, troll. SAT scores are required of all student-athletes at all universities competing at any level of the NCAA. ACC standards are higher than NCAA standards, and UVa standards are sometimes greater than ACC standards (though regretfully, this is not often!) Uris 00:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    I don't know who the originally poster was, but to come to a limited defense, I wonder if they were confusing two separate "exceptions". First, it might in fact be the case that U-Va institutionally does not require SAT scores for mid-year enrollees (I have no idea). Second, it might also be the case that the mid-year enrollee spot is generally permitted only for athletes, and only then in special circumstances (again, while I have heard of rare athletes being permitted January enrollment, that is the extent of my knowledge). If it is the case that the NCAA requires the scores, that does not mean that U-Va requires them only for September enrollees or that U-Va generally grants the January enrollement only to athletes.
    Also, I should note that the NCAA does not absolutely require the SAT. For most students, either the SAT _or_ the ACT is permitted. Also, I don't know if any testing is required for a) non-scholarship athletes or b) Division III athletes. I do know that the NCAA permits exceptions to the initial eligibility requirements, but I don't know what those criteria are or how often they occur. Also, a student-athlete who fails to submit SAT/ACT scores may, to my knowledge, enter college as a nonqualifier and later become eligible without having taken a test.
    I note all that just to suggest that the original comment may have been more confusion than trolling.Cka3n 00:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] 1986 website claim

    According to this, UVA had a website in 1986. According to this, the first web server didn't exist until 1990. So, which is true? --Takeel 04:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

    It was a site on the Internet in 1986, not on the World Wide Web. Uris 23:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
    I noticed that you re-phrased this and added it back. However, it might still be confusing to the reader. Did you intend to say that virgnia.edu was the first registered .edu domain in Virginia? If so, how can we verify this? --Takeel 00:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Promotion to good article

    Hi all,

    I have promoted this article to the status of good article.

    Cedars 11:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Fourth-year Fifth and Archiving the talk page

    Regarding the Fourth-Year Fifth:

    • No other university lays claim to the particular nomenclature of the "Fourth Year Fifth," but many, many universities have reasonably similar traditions. Neither the tradition nor the administration's response are significantly unique.
    • To suggest that "fifth" is an arbitrary and self-selected ratio ignores that a fifth is a well known measure of sold alcohol. Its correspondence with the class descriptor surely is part of the story of the development of the "tradition," but it would be error to suggest that the name Fourth Year Fifth led to a search for a volume of alcohol of which about a fifth would be sufficient.

    I am going to edit the passage consistent with those points.

    Regarding the Archiving:

    This talk page has gotten pretty long. Is it time to archive some/all of it?

    [edit] Removed some promotional material

    I have removed some promotional material from one of the picture captions. It is a picture of two students tuxedos with a "Yall Come" sign above their heads. The caption read: "The University's students have a reputation for being from upper class and white collar backgrounds. Yet tuition rates are low, minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level with AccessUVa." This has #1: no relation to the picture other than some sort of implication or association with elitism, #2: would be considered POV under any standard. Feel free to restore it, but change the tone and make it less vague.

    --IRelayer 19:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

    Everything in that caption is NPOV and sourced in this article. I see no reason to change the wording, or to re-source everything over again. Also, a direct relationship to the picture is not necessary at all on Wikipedia. Uris 23:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
    I'm sorry...I completely disagree. Referencing some campus program in such a manner is dangerously close to advert/promotional material. I never said it was unsourced, as it is easy to source an advertisement for a service, although now that you mention it, I do not see a citation either in the caption or in the section that discusses AccessUVA (although I could easily be mistaken). Since I was obviously not clear enough in my previous comment, the following constitutes a specific breakdown of my complaints about the wording of this caption:
    "The University's students have a reputation for being from upper class and white collar backgrounds."
    This is an ongoing issue on this page, it seems. I won't touch it other than to say that without the rest of the text, it does not belong in the caption, so it needs to be reworded.
    In sourced material by U.S. News. Uris 06:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    "Yet tuition rates are low"
    Low compared to what? The national average? This needs to be spelled out.
    Already spelled out in sourced material by U.S. News. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    ", minority enrollments and graduation rates are high,"
    Again, high compared to what? The national average? This also needs to be spelled out.
    And again, Already spelled out in sourced material by Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    " and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level with AccessUVa."
    Blatant promotion of the program. "with AccessUVA" is particularly problematic in that it sounds like adspeak...like "checking is free with Washington Mutual's AccessChecking. This should be deleted or reworded.
    Okay, I'll remove the "program" from the sentence. So-called "Blatant promotion" of the fact that grants are guaranteed to replace all loans is not a bad thing, as it is encyclopedic. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    The implication (to me) is that, despite the "reputation" (going back to the first sentence) of elitism, UVA thinks poor people and minorities are welcome. Do you see my problem with this? It is automatically POV in my opinion.
    Strange implication to you, sorry you feel that way. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    Thus, I am rewording the text myself. Thank you for your opinion and your genuine desire to address the issues that I presented. I know this seems like a nitpick to some people, but I am trying my best to keep WP's university pages from becoming recruiting tools and extensions of the university's own website.
    Reworded it back, minus the AccessUVa mention, as these other points lack substance. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    --IRelayer 23:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Distinguished alumni

    Why have Malkmus and Kerney been taken out of the distinguished alumni section? They are certainly as well known as, e.g., Albright, Olsen, and Eskandarian. Also, is the sentence "Those involved in the sciences have helped to cure yellow fever, and to "crack the code" of DNA." necessary? It doesn't identify any distinguished alumni (and in fact doesn't make clear whether it is referring to faculty or to alumni). Cka3n 00:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

    I'd also like to endorse myself as someone who should be listed as a distinguished alumnus. ;-) --EEMeltonIV 01:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    I agree that they are as well known as those soccer players, but that probably means the names of the soccer players should be removed. Malkmus and Kerney aren't distinguished enough to make this list either (IMO we should at least limit it to "all-stars" in their respective professions, or those with Platinum records, etc.) Uris 12:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    I've removed the names of the soccer players but left their accomplishment, similar to how the 3 astronauts are listed.Uris 13:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    I agree that the sentence "Those involved in the sciences have helped to cure yellow fever, and to "crack the code" of DNA." is unnecessary (and unusually ostentatious).--IRelayer 04:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    Already removed it, forgot to mention here. Uris 06:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

    Oh, my--DISAGREE, DISAGREE, DISAGREE. At the very least Malkmus should be in there. He was a founding member of one of the most influential indie rock bands of all time (Pavement). Pavement absolutely meets the standards for notablility and therefore so does Malkmus.--Velvet elvis81 15:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

    Looking over the Pavement page, I think there's enough there now to include Malkmus. Added him back in. Uris 23:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Rhodes scholars?

    While I realize that UVa may have more produced Rhodes than other state-affiliated universities, I have some concern that the current version (which cites a UVa news release) is perhaps a little too close to advertising.

    1. Although the service academies are clearly different than the traditional public university, they too are "universit[ies] that [are] predominantly funded by public means through a national or regional government." That UVa would not include them (and thereby arrogate for itself the top-ranked position) is not terribly surprising. In any case, it seems to me that the article is only helped by including additional context, e.g., information about U-Va's spot in the overall rankings.

    2. Why is 45 historic? Although that is the most of any non-academy public university, it is nowhere near the most overall, and indeed I think it is less than a fifth of the total of the leading school overall.

    Cka3n 05:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

    Historic there as the adjective didn't mean a "historic number" as in "great"... just the historical number, like the number of Rhodes Scholars U.Va. has had in its history. Maybe it is ambiguous, so I've changed the wording to make it clearer.
    As for using a U.Va. source, I think that's fine. We trust the U.S. Census Bureau to keep us up to date with the demographics of its own country, so we should be able to trust U.Va. with measuring its own internal statistics. I don't think there are many outside press releases about each university's Rhodes Scholars. Uris 00:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
    A source is a source, and U-Va is about as good a source as you can find on this information. My concern was mostly that U-Va is (ostensibly) promoting itself, and so by taking only information from U-Va and not providing any context for it, we permit Wikipedia to be used as an advertising forum (akin to when newspapers run press releases). It is a shame that there is no useful and comprehensive repository of rhodes data.
    In any case, two of your recent changes (re: public and re: historic) resolve my specific concerns. Cka3n 00:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Board of Visitors

    As best I can tell, most of the Virginia public schools' BOVs have actual authority - see, e.g., http://www.vmi.edu/show.asp?durki=542, http://www.bov.vt.edu/, and http://bov.gmu.edu/.

    Moreover, there are some schools outside of Virginia whose BOVs have actual authority - see, e.g., http://www.citadel.edu/r3/bov/about/index.shtml.

    Finally, it certainly appears that most of the BOVs with authority are in the state of Virginia. However, I can't tell whether this is a meaningful distinction, or if Virginia just calls its BOVs what other states call their Regent boards, etc. If the article is going to include a reference to the BOVs relatively unique nature, it should explain the source of the distinction.

    Cka3n 22:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] picture of the "honor code"?

    Hoping that some Hoos (or other people who've been to the university) will come across this page once in a while... Could you possibly take a picture of one of the signs with the honor code from one of the classrooms? (Or any other good picture visualizing the honor code or generally UVa traditions... :o)) If you could, uploading your picture directly to the Wikimedia Commons would be great. If not (if you have a picture and don't want to upload it yourself, don't know how, etc.), feel free to contact me, I'll be happy to help you and/or upload it in your place. It goes without saying that you'll be attributed authorship of your picture in either way (unless you don't want that). Thanks a lot for your help!! --Ibn Battuta 20:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] ... or other pictures, esp. of the pavilions?

    I've entered the German article into the current writing competition at the German Wikipedia. So if any of you has (or could take) pictures of other parts of UVa and would be willing to publish them on Wikipedia--thanks a lot! (I'd be esp. interested in the pavilions: I'm dreaming of getting pictures for each of them in order to set up a table structure representing the lawn and to point to the architectural differences etc. -- but nor do we have so far pictures of North Grounds... etc. etc.) Please feel free to contact me for any infos, help, whatever! Publishing pictures here is easy, and I'll be happy to help you with the upload as well as choosing a license you like. In short: Go for it :o)) --Ibn Battuta 19:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Student count

    Please keep in mind that "because article X does(n't) have information Y" is not a compelling reason (not) to include information in an article. Far-reaching changes get made all the time to the numbers, statistics and other information covered by various templates and article classes. --EEMeltonIV 06:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../u/n/i/Talk%7EUniversity_of_Virginia_0f6f.html"