Talk:University of Santo Tomas

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Archives
Archive 1 (Up to August 31, 2006)

If you are attending or had attended the University of Santo Tomas, you can add this userbox on your userpage: {{User UUST}}, to display this on your userpage:

UST

Proud student or alum of the Pontifical and Royal University of Santo Tomas.

/summary -This is a barebones version for use in initiating translations to other languages. Please do not remove or expand . Feel free to enter essential only data.--Jondel 02:04, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

1 GAC
2 Only 18 UAAP men's basketball championships
3 Archive
4 Lead
5 UST or USC as the oldest university
6 UST's standing at the THES-QS rankings
7 Lorenzo Ruiz is a Thomasian?
8 Merge?
9 Saint Raymunds Building Photo
10 Pictures

[edit] GAC

I evaluated the article based on 7 criteria:

Well-written: Pass
Factually accurate: Pass
Broad: Pass
Neutrally written: Pass
Stable: Pass
Well-referenced: Pass
Images: Pass

Congratulations, the article is passed. I do have a few comments- one, that I would like to see more referrences from other sources beside the university website. While I'm not counting off for that, as it's definately an authoritative source, more from other places would be cool. Second, please place a conversion in parentheses after hectares- I have no idea how big that is. I'd recommend square miles, but I'm not sure what the manual of style says on that issue. Anyway, good job. --PresN 22:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll looking for better sources and convert hectares into square meters. Thanks. --Howard the Duck 03:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only 18 UAAP men's basketball championships

The newspapers are wrong. Check out UAAP Basketball Champions and count the number of championships. It's only 18. Perhaps the newspapers were trying to say that if the NCAA title would be included, it would be 19 in total. --Howard the Duck 17:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archive

The archive seems to be incomplete. The discussion used to be much more extensive. Rmcsamson 14:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I accidentally removed the arguments when I archived it. I've restored it now. --Howard the Duck 15:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

The words disputed are the following:

"and claims to be the oldest university in the Philippines and in Asia,^[1] The University of San Carlos in Cebu City, which was founded in 1595 but was granted university charter in 1948, is the oldest school. ^[2]"

They have been removed from the article as of 09:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC). --Howard the Duck 09:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC) References:

^ UST General Information UST.edu.ph Accessed August 6, 2006
^ About USC USC.edu.ph Accessed August 6, 2006

Claim in the Encarta dictionary:

vt maintain something is true: to say, without proof or evidence, that something is true

To say that UST "claims" is inaccurate and NPOV because the cited source says it "is" not it "claims". Unless you come up with a source that UST claims to be the oldest university. I'm willing to let "dispute" stay as it is. --Howard the Duck 14:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The argument is illogical. The cited source is no other than UST's website itself. It is an institutional claim that is made by the documentation on that website. In fact, the page that the inline citation is non-neutral. Cross-referencing with the other references such as history texts by Tolentino, de la Costa, Arcilla, etc. lead to the simple conclusion that all that the page cited contains is a claim. To state that it "is" the oldest is precisely what is in dispute here. It is NOT settled, except in non-neutral sources which don't really serve much as evidence. This is what has been discussed in the previous editing that this page has undergone. You may want to read that before editing further. This is also precisely the reason why until recently, that particular aspect of the lead has been unchanged: to say that UST "claims to be" is a clear statement of fact, which is the most neutral phrasing given the differing sources. You can try looking up and using the phrase "asserts that it is," but this phrasing is, for all intents and purposes, no different. I will continue reverting until this issue is settled. Rmcsamson 15:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If historians can't settle it, then it is very difficult for us to settle it either.

Again even if the cited source is not neutral as you say, then you can cite a source that says UST "claims" to be the oldest university, then "claim" should stay. We should follow what the cited source is. Anyhoo, the UST website reference should stay, even if another source is found. And what is an NPOV source for this "fact"? --Howard the Duck 15:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If we can't settle it, then we can't exactly treat the "is" as fact. And there is still no refutation to the fact that what the website contains is a claim. That's pretty simple logic.Rmcsamson 15:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

But even if it is a claim, but as long as it is cited, we must stick to what is said on the cited source. Again, adding a source that says UST "claims" that it is the oldest will solve the problem. --Howard the Duck 15:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact remains that the source cited is a non-neutral claim. It is a matter of institutional opinion. The only inverse of that non-neutral statement is to say it's a lie, which would still be non-neutral. The "is" is a claim, not clearly a matter of fact. Until it is, reversion will continue. Rmcsamson 15:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

But hey, I'm all for discussion. Here's more claiming: [1].Rmcsamson 15:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

But that will be different from what the cited source, no matter how POV it is. Also, NPOV is not broken since another source, from the USC website no less, refutes this, and is given right after the UST source.

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

So instead of "claims" and "disputed", I propose to use "is", like this:

...it was established in April 28, 1611, and says it is the oldest existing university in the Philippines and in Asia,[UST source here]; on the other hand, the University of San Carlos in Cebu City, says it is the oldest university for it was was founded in 1595 and was granted university charter in 1948.[USC source here]

And the source you cited is although it is under the subheading, "oldest university", it veers into the "oldest school" debate. ;) --Howard the Duck 16:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

We're splitting hairs. Of the proposed changes, only the second clause might be needed. To say "... and says it is the..." is no different from saying "and claims to be." It's still the same argument, it's still a say-ing, it's still a claim. Arguably, to use the infinitive "to be" is in fact, the more appropriate usage, because it's a basic usage of the verb "is" without being skewed toward a particular tense or being given any temporal color The second clause is fine, unless you want the more active verb "dispute."

Re "oldest university" vs. "oldest school" debate, there's really no distinction in my opinion. The university is still, ontologically, the same man-made thing which was founded as a school/college/whatever. Rmcsamson 16:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Encarta, "say" means:

vt indicate something: to convey information in written or printed words, numbers, or symbols

So it is quite different from "claim"; why invent two different words if they say absolutely the same thing. The article isn't saying which came first, it merely presents the cases of the two parties, and allows the reader to judge for himself which is correct.

So any suggestion on how to phrase the UST part? "Claim" is also a loaded word, you know, that's why I'd rather stick to simple words like "say", "is", etc. --Howard the Duck 16:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

@ oldest university/school, well it isn't the same everywhere. Some universities do not have basic education units, so they're not "schools" in the Filipino sense of the word. Lets just present the two sides fairly, without using weasel and loaded words, shall we? --Howard the Duck 16:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Consider this. It's not the article that's making the claim. The claim is made by the schools. The article's merely supposed to SAY that. There's a marked difference. The ARTICLE can also SAY that both schools MAINTAIN that they are the oldest (maintain's etymological roots are the Latin phrase "to hold in the hand"). The matter isn't about loaded words. It's appropriate English. One can even argue that "claim" is the appropriate word here: both schools have their basis, but neither, at least as far as this discussion has shown, has enough of a case to make the assertion definitive and conclusive. Re oldest university/school: The existence of basic education units is irrelevant to determine whether or not something is a "school" as opposed to a "university," the unqualified/unqualifiable phrase "Filipino sense of the word" aside. Rmcsamson 16:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

(Reindented): After reading the USC link (it's dead now, I'm replacing it), USC [claims to be the "oldest school"], yet UST claims to be the "oldest university". Whether or not a school and a university is the same is another thing. Since USC doesn't claim to be the oldest university, nor does UST claim it is the oldest university, the USC argument doesn't even have to be in the lead, it should be footnote. --Howard the Duck 17:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have hit the old sticking point again. Both institutions are universities today. Are they, ontologically, the same schools that were founded in 1595 and 1611? Yes. So if it's a question of who's older, San Carlos is clearly older. Granted, of course, that Santo Tomas has the oldest extant university charter, and that Santo Tomas was called a university before San Carlos was. But that line of thought in itself seems to bend the definition of what a university is (vis-a-vis, say, "school," "institution of higher learning," etc.). Like I've said, this has all been discussed before, and at least based on the previous discussions, it appears that the consensus was to allow both points to stand: that UST lays claim to its being the oldest university by virtue of an earlier charter, however, it is still younger than USC. The issue to settle here is the question of whether or not they're the same man-made things that were founded when they were even today. If not, then UST probably ought to stop saying "1611," since it would've been a different thing starting 1645 (making it younger than Letran, which fortunately for this discussion is still not a university). That's probably as neutral as you can get: uphold the status of UST's university charter as the oldest extant one in the Philippines and in Asia, but concede that it is this document, and not the institution it's supposed to be meant for, that is the oldest in the Philippines and in Asia (of course, whether or not the actual document still exists may be the subject of yet another discussion). Any way you look at it, the oldest surviving institution in the Philippines and in Asia which is a university is the University of San Carlos. Rmcsamson 18:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

But the cited source is clear:

UST is the oldest university
USC is the oldest school.

Since USC doesn't dispute/challenge UST's statement that UST is the oldest university. UST doesn't challenge/dispute USC's statement that USC is the oldest school. So the sentence clarifying USC's position, in the lead no less, seems out of place. So the current sentence that we have:

and claims to be the oldest existing university in the Philippines and in Asia,[1] although this is disputed by the University of San Carlos in Cebu City, which was founded in 1595 but was granted university charter in 1948.

Is wrong because:

The source cited for UST's statement doesn't claim, but affirms.
The source cited for USC's statement doesn't dispute UST's position.

Again, unless someone adds a citation that UST "claims" (a direct quote) that they are the oldest university, and USC disputes that claim of beong the oldest university it is wrong. --Howard the Duck 23:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the oldest university should go to San Carlos and as far as this argument goes... both institutions were the oldest in Asia... and in fact, the Philippines is the only Asian country with a university in the 17th, 18th, 19th Centuries and even before the Second World War... -- peads 01:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

But the thing is their website they are the oldest school, not the oldest university. --Howard the Duck 02:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, a distinction is being drawn where there is none. Are these universities the same things founded in 1595 and 1611? Yes. There is no ontological distinction between then and now. And between 1595 and 1611, which came first? The obvious answer is 1595. The sources cited are, again, non-neutral sources. They're unreliable. Rmcsamson 03:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The best sources for these types of info are the official website themselves. What other source would be appropriate? I'm tagging down the USC statement with {{fact}} because it is not what the source says. We'd have to stick to what the source says. The USC source says USC became a university in 1948. --Howard the Duck 08:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

A distinction is being drawn where there is none. The source is clear: USC is the oldest in the Philippines. Until the question of ontology which I have posed is properly settled, I'm going to keep reverting. The best sources are NOT the official websites. These sources are non-neutral, and their neutrality is suspect. Take them with a grain of salt. Rmcsamson 17:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, then Cornell University, a feauted article, where much of the info is derived from the official website, is in violation of NPOV? A school and a university are two different things. Again, the cited source for UST says they are the oldest university, with no word "claim". The USC source says "school", not "university". Reverting won't help, what is needed is a source that says USC is the "oldest university." with a direct quote. Or you can slap the page with {{NPOV}}. --Howard the Duck 03:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The question which ought to be asked is if USC and UST are NOT universities today, and if they are NOT the same things established in the years they were established. There being no ontological difference with regard to THAT matter, then USC is still the same San Idelfonso, and was therefore founded in 1595. 1595 came before 1611. With regard to the Cornell example, its being a Featured Article is irrelevant. There are other sources which point to San Carlos being founded in 1595. The whole issue can easily be resolved by saying that UST has the oldest extant university charter. Pendng resolution, the current edit seems to suffice. Rmcsamson 12:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

How about saying that among, the present universities, UST was first to be granted a university charter? --Howard the Duck 14:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Now THAT's a weasel statement. It tends to mislead the reader into thinking that UST was the first to be granted a university charter. It's common knowledge that it wasn't UST. But UST's got the OLDEST existing one, and that statement's clear as day. Rmcsamson 17:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Now you misread my statement, it says, among present universities, UST was the first to be granted a university charter. --Howard the Duck 02:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. I said it "tends to mislead." The clearer, most neutral, and most factually-accurate phrasing is that "UST has the oldest extant university charter." Rmcsamson 02:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we remove "extant", since oldest means it must be existing. You can't be the oldest when you're dead. --Howard the Duck 02:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

That's cute, but it tends to mislead. Rmcsamson 14:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

But for the ordinary reader who doesn't know the meaning of "extant" or is leisurely browsing this would think that UST has the oldest, even the first university. But I'm fine with this already. --Howard the Duck 14:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of addressing that particular concern. Rmcsamson 18:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you place that at the history section. I kinda looks out of place in the lead. --Howard the Duck 05:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Hahahahaha! Funny Howard! :) --Noypi380 10:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UST or USC as the oldest university

This discussion was transferred from Talk:University of Santo Tomas to Talk:University of San Carlos :) --Noypi380 10:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

210.213.191.146 04:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)raul

[edit] UST's standing at the THES-QS rankings

Should we include it in the article? --Mithril Cloud 13:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

How credible is this ranking system? --Howard the Duck 14:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know but, it was reported in the local news and was even featured by De La Salle University-Manila in their newsletter, while Ateneo de Manila's adminstration gave a response to it . --Mithril Cloud 15:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The ranking system employed by THES has been the subject of much criticism, particularly with regard to its methodology. Rmcsamson 15:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

So is it a good idea of adding that here? --Howard the Duck 15:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Only if it's relevant, I guess. A lot of major universities' articles don't even bother with rankings, since there's no fixed quantification or definition of "academic excellence" anyway. Rmcsamson 16:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If it isn't relevant, then there would be no reason to add it to the articles concerned. How would we know if it is relevant anyway? --Mithril Cloud 16:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If it's useful information that ought to be included in an encyclopedia? Rmcsamson 17:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Surely this ranking has a lot of flaws. How can UST be ranked lower than the 3 other Philippine Universities (with all due respect to the 3 other Universities ) when UST graduates top the different licensure examinations yearin and year out inspite of turning out the most number of graduates in every field or profession. Aside from this, UST has high overall passing perecentages in these board exams.It is also a fact that UST has produced the leaders in every field or profession and its graduates include Saints, Presidents, chief justices, world-class Physicians, architects, engineers, accountants, businessmen, members of the clergy, scientists, artists, literary giants, and athletes.UST is part of the long history of the Philippines. It is steeped in tradition and rich in history. UST is the only Royal and Pontifical University in this country. Surely, a university that can churn out these kind of products must have a time tested program for each discipline, a curriculum that combines faith and reason, always in pursuit of the truth with love, compassion, and a commitment to excellence. THe organizers of this company ranking the universities worldwide, must surely have omitted the more important and significant characteristics and true credentials of the University of Santo Tomas.I hope that this glaring error will be corrected in the future, otherwise this worldwide ranking will lose its credibility because many authorities in the academe worldwide are knowledgeable and are aware of the standard of Santo tomas University in the Philippines.

We're asking if it should be included in the article, not whether if its accurate or not. --Howard the Duck 04:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lorenzo Ruiz is a Thomasian?

Hi. Kindly pardon my ignorance but is Lorenzo Ruiz a UST alumnus? I understand that he studied with the Dominicans at the Binondo Church, serving as a scribe and altar boy in the early years of his life. However, I couldn't seem to find sources that can support that he did study at the UST. Can anyone please shed some light? Thanks. { PMGOMEZ } 15:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried looking for this information, too, and I can't find this either, so in the meantime I tagged it as unsourced. However, IMO, this information about San Lorenzowould be true if and only if UST (or, more specifically, its direct, historical predecessor) was the only Dominican school and hence was the school he would have most likely attended. As it goes, based on what is currently written, it's presently unclear if San Lorenzo's Binondo school and the original UST are one and the same school. ~~(I'll try to check the Vatican website if they have more information about this in San Lorenzo's "official" profile.)~~ Negative...there's too little information in San Lorenzo's Vatican bio. --- Tito Pao 15:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

For one, UST and Letran were the two Dominican schools at that time... --Howard the Duck 15:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that UST and Letran were the two Dominican schools at that time but it seems that no concrete records show Lorenzo attending either. Did he even have formal schooling? { PMGOMEZ } 16:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Can somebody give a reason for the proposed merger? I'll remove it if no one comments further. --Howard the Duck 07:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It only has a short description and a list of courses offered? --Mithril Cloud 14:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's my plan a long time ago to have an article for each college and faculty, but I can't find enough refs and my UST pamphlet that I received during my H.S. days is gone. --Howard the Duck 15:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Raymunds Building Photo

I have walked the halls of what I used to call the Commerce Building (St. Raymunds de Peñafort) for more than the usual 4 years and I mastered every corner of it but that was decades ago. I wonder if the Faculty of Commerce is still located on top of that building, please enlighten me. If so, could I suggest of including "Commerce" in the photo caption of the building? Thanks! Fddfred 05:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes Commerce is still on top of us Artlets, but the Accountancy students are now at the new building at the front of USTH. --Howard the Duck 10:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

While it is nice to have more pictures in the article, it seems that all new images placed have questionable copyright status. --Mithril Cloud 16:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

actually, there's metadata so there's a high chance of legitimacy... ----Howard the Duck 16:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet there's also a high chance that the uploader did not take those pictures. --Mithril Cloud 05:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Well anyone can take pics of the UST campus since it's open to the public; it'll be deleted soon though, they don't have tags, that'll remove your misery, lol. --Howard the Duck 07:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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