Talk:University of Miami

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Date of review: 2007-02-14

Contents

[edit] Miami University

Wow, folks. So by "the disambiguation is complete", what y'all are really saying is "our goal to inflate the importance of our school at the expense of Miami University is complete." There's a reason Miami University is sometimes called "Miami (OH)", and it's closely related to the reason the University of Miami is sometimes called "Miami (FL)". It would be nice if we could explore that reason in this article, just as we are on the article about the much older institution in Oxford, Ohio. -- SwissCelt 19:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I know that you are biased towards your school, and I have a bias towards my own. Miami University has been around since the 1800s, the University of Miami has been around since the 1920s. The President of the University of Miami is a Miami University graduate. More people associate "Miami" and "University" with the Floridian school because it's named after the city, which in turn is named after the Native American tribe (I think that's what the city is named after) that the Ohio school is named for. It's just a lot of bad faith when its an edit war that I apologize that I contributed in. Please just leave the Miami U/U Miami dispute off of Wikipedia. Ryūlóng 20:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, my school is Bowling Green State University... MU's rival. But thank you for your kind words. I really don't have anything against the University of Miami. I just wish the UofM would stop stealing their elder brother's thunder. The two schools are quite notable enough on their own merits. -- SwissCelt 20:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Why bother? When I see MUoOH have two heisman trophy winning QBs, five national championships, a stellar baseball program (produced ARod), a music program that put out Gloria Estefan, excellent law and business schools, etc. ad infinitum, then we'll talk. Until then, we'll take for granted that Miami University of Ohio sucks worse than Ohio State, and that the disambiguation (overinflating the importance of that community college in the Ohio Territory) is for all intents and purposes complete. ExplorerCDT 20:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC) (Not a UM graduate).
  • Hmm, well, most people care about your "stellar baseball program" about as much as they care about Miami University's equally stellar hockey program. As for football creds, gee, only five national championships? MU alum Woody Hayes did that all by himself... and that's before you count the championships earned by Bo Schembechler, Ara Parseghian, and Jim Tressel. Oh, yes, that's right: The same Jim Tressel who led Ohio State over your school for the national title started his coaching career at the Cradle of Coaches, Miami University. By the way, while your Heisman trophy winners were sitting at home, Miami University alum Ben Roethlisberger was out winning the Super Bowl. Howzat? Oh, I should add that MU is undefeated against the University of Florida in bowl games... and yes, the two schools did actually meet in a bowl, in 1974. I hear the UofM managed to do that in 2001... congratulations.
And that's before we start talking academics. How many US Presidents did your "excellent law school" graduate? MU has one. How many people on Forbes' list of the world's richest people came from your business school? MU has several. Your president is an MU alum. Ready to talk yet? -- SwissCelt 20:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Miami University alum Ben Roethlisberger was out winning the Super Bowl. So you say? It seems he's still playing too much football without a helmet, just on a motorcycle. Is that the type of idiot you guys graduate? Benjamin Harrison? That's what you're proud of? Geesh, he couldn't even get reëlected. Miami University of Ohio is so pathetic you need to buttress your arguments with Michigan, Ohio State people. It seems Miami University people are only successful when they go to other schools, and they only seem to bolster the rep of those schools, since even though they may have a connection with Miami University, it's the first I've heard of it. As to the UFlorida jokes...Gators suck, but not as bad as Miami University. They're so much of a footnote, they might as well accept their spot right up there with the "also rans" since they are and will forever be nothing more than an afterthought on Saturdays in the Autumn. ExplorerCDT 22:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Several points: 1) Miami University couldn't give two rats asses about sports relative to its dedication to its undergraduate programs (in which 75-80% of available funds are allocated). The fact that our university harbored an underrated first round QB that went on to win a Superbowl makes a sports machine school like yours look pathetic when your players are cropped off the crime ridden streets and your players are not there for an education but instead to throw a ball.

2) Miami University was authorized by George Washington and the Congress in the early days of our country. Suntan U. was founded by a bunch of sunburned assholes who wanted to find something to do other than sell drugs and build retirement communities.

3) Take a look at the famous alumni from Miami University compared to Miami of Florida. 80 to 90 percent of your famous alumni are entertainers or athletes. That sounds about right... Now go take a look at the Miami Univ. alum.

4) Miami's hockey team was #1 i the country last year. Miami's football team was #10 tied with Suntan U. a couple years ago. Our syncronized skating team is #4 in the world this year. I'm not saying Miami University is an Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, but what I am saying is that when people I've met all over the country mention Miami University, the first thing they say is 'oh, i know several people that went there, it's a great school and beautiful campus'. They don't mention the criminals/football players or that they have great nightclubs, old people, and drug dealers.

MiamiU lost to BC in the first round of the NCAA tournament last year. That's hardly "#1 in the country". In any case, I think this debate has run its course. I've been collaborating with Ryūlóng and the rest of this project's editors to improve this article, which after all is our purpose in being here. So long as Wikipedia recognizes both schools (which it does), I'm happy. -- SwissCelt 19:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC) (a BG alum)

[edit] A-Rod

Wow, really? Alex Rodriguez never went to UofM? I honestly can say I didn't know that; I rather assumed he did. (Okay, given my previous edits vis a vis Miami University I can understand how some might think I'm trying to rub this into 'Canes fans' faces, but I'm a bit shocked to learn this.) -- SwissCelt 20:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It says in his article that he was not part of the UM Baseball (or football) teams, and there's no other mention of UMiami in the article. I could be entirely wrong, but it does not appear to be correct. Ryūlóng 20:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll have to double check... He basically bought the baseball field o_O? Ryūlóng 20:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This page states that A-Rod was drafted to the Mariners before he could even become a student? Ryūlóng 20:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
He was admitted to the university and then was recruited into the MLB before he played the first game. Under MLB rules, once they play the first game as freshmen, they become illegible for draft purposes, so Seattle got there and found him before he even started playing. So he was admitted but never really attended the university--and never played on the UM baseball team. MiamiDolphins3 04:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

I noticed there was an edit stating that they should limit the alumni who went on to the NFL to reflect only the real famous of them...that I don't think is a good idea. Instead, you should consider, as we did with the large list of Rutgers University alumni (which we combined with the faculty list for a "people" list), making a separate article entitled "List of notable University of Miami alumni." Does not winning the super bowl, or not having the highest passing yards for a given season mean that you're less a professional football player than one who has? Geesh, no one remembers Ozzie Nelson, and today in the days of James Gandolfini, Calista Flockhart and Kristin Davis we don't take him off the Rutgers alumni list because of it. —ExplorerCDT 17:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

We have our very comprehensive NFL list on the Miami Hurricanes football page, and it includes probably over 100 players. The criteria we've been applying to the main page is that they be NFL starters, first round draft picks, Heisman winners, etc. That seems to work well and keeps the list at a reasonable number, especially since some UM grads have gone on to be some of the biggest names in NFL history and many others made the NFL and never even played. I think our general idea is to include about the top 20 or so NFL names, and I think we've done a pretty good job in capturing that. And then the football page, which is linked from the main page, has the comprehensive list for those interested, similar to the list you suggested.MiamiDolphins3 03:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alma Mater lyrics

If an institution's Alma Mater is of sufficient age that it has passed into the public domain, I'm pretty sure that it is safe to be published in Wikipedia. However, I doubt that UMiami's Alma Mater is that old. See Copyright, Wikipedia:Public Domain. -- SwissCelt 11:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I see alma mater lyrics on many other university pages, and I thought their inclusion was sort of neat. Unless there is some copyright or wikipedia policy against it, and I don't think there is, I'd vote for putting it back in. MiamiDolphins3 03:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd love to have it back in, too. But I think UMiami's Alma Mater is still under copyright. Anyone able to run this down for us? -- SwissCelt 04:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USN&WR ranking

1. The statement "The University of Miami has been routinely ranked among the top tier..." is a factual assertion that must be supported by a citation. It is entirely insufficient to simply link to the Wikipedia article about the USN&WR rankings.

No, not really. Such a citation would almost certainly require a footnote for every year, and that's not necessary, provided the statement is commonly agreed to be true. UM has been ranked in the 50 to 60 range of this list for many consecutive years. MiamiDolphins3 15:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but what part of WP:Verifiability is unclear? This is a core policy of Wikipedia and it's not negotiable. "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed."
In addition to ignoring facts and WP:V, you're also in violation of the 3 Revert Rule. I caution you to not attempt to own this article and ask that you observe Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --ElKevbo 20:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

2. It is entirely incorrect to state that UM is ranked "54 best [in the nation]." USN&WR is clear in that they "first assign schools to a group of their peers" and then proceed to rank them. Therefore any USN&WR ranking must be qualified by the peer group among which the ranking is valid. As a minor point, I also object to describing this ranking as "54th best" as best is POV and the shortcomings of and objections to the USN&WR methodology are well-known and widespread. --ElKevbo 02:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to work on finding the ranking information, to at least substantiate the first claim, and I agree on the second now. —Ryūlóng (竜龍) 02:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Good deal. The first claim is most likely substantiated by UM propaganda - admissions info, press release, etc. if it's documented anywhere. It's unlikely to be documented by USN&WR. --ElKevbo 02:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
It is the 54th best in the nation. The excluded colleges are liberal arts colleges that do not offer a full range of academic programs. No university in the U.S. is excluded from the ranking, so the statement that it is the 54th best among U.S.-based universities is entirely accurate. MiamiDolphins3 15:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Please support your assertion with citations or references from the USN&WR methodology. I've already pointed out above how the institutions are first separated into peer groups and then ranked. The quote above is a cut-n-paste from their methodology and directly contradicts your assertion. Your evidence?
Furthermore, your assertion that "there is no such thing as a national university" is false. I placed the phrase in quotes as it is indeed the peer group into which USN&WR places UM and it is among those institutions that it is ranked. --ElKevbo 18:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I know we have to back up statements with references, but this is getting disruptive. —Ryūlóng (竜龍) 17:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Disruptive to who? I merely would like to see an objective, neutral article on the University of Miami rather than a brochure filled with unsubstantiated statements, biased opinions and a general lack of neutrality. All my changes are in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines especially regarding the reduction of Academic Boosterism.
I didn't add those but I certainly don't object to them. I do object to your removing them without providing the requested citations. They're factual assertions which must be supported by citations from reliable sources. --ElKevbo 18:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
These recent edits closely reflect ones made by the same IP months ago. He or she fought with long-standing editors for months, then disappeared, and now reappeared. The edits were disruptive and combative then, as they are now. The page is accurate. Additional footnotes might be helpful, probably aren't necessary but could be worked in. MiamiDolphins3 20:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Who are the "long-standing editors?" My edits are not disruptive or combative. I would like to see a higher quality article for the University of Miami. Until you provide sources for and address the above questions from ElKevbo, I will continue to ask for sources and make edits to inaccurate or unsubstantiated statements.
Your IP matches the person who made all the controversial, combative edits regarding the superiority of Miami University several months ago. Please refrain from making further revisions to the page. List anything in the article the you consider factually incorrect and it can be considered here. MiamiDolphins3 20:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with the anonymous user and ElKevbo. I don't agree that the anonymous' contributions are combative but instead are constructive and valid. This article is not up Wiki standards and needs to be cleaned up. Anonymous' contributions are a start. Seattlelite
Tagging nearly every section with {{fact}} is a bit disruptive. This has been discussed with regular editors above and in the archives. —Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I read through the history and the requests for citations are valid. Rather than delete these requests for sources, you should cite these sources or delete the statement. That is official Wikipedia policy WP:Verifiability. It can be argued that your reversions are disruptive (I am not saying that you are), so it is not fair to say who is or is not disruptive, combative or controversial. Seattlelite 21:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have been going about searching for refs to rankings, but I will have to wait on MiamiDolphins3 to go searching for the sports stuff. —Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Academic Rankings

See Wikipedia:Avoid_academic_boosterism I understand that alumni and fans of this fine university want to put this school in a fine light but Wikipedia should be a neutral source of information, not a brochure or propoganda piece.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.134.136.2 (talk)

It's all referenced. Some references are just harder to find than others, and most are references in linked articles or the next sentence or so.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anon editor

To the anonomyous editor: It would be much more helpful and cooperative if you would add citations where you feel they are needed, as opposed to slapping reference requests on every other sentence. MiamiDolphins3 18:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It would be more helpful but the responsibility of supporting an assertion with a citation doesn't fall upon the reader or random Wikipedia editor. I, for one, appreciate the suggestions and help given to us by anonymous editors even when we disagree with them. --ElKevbo 19:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

I think the parenthetical statement that some football players didn't receive their degree should be removed. Many of the others also didn't receive their degree and it gives the impression that the rest of them did.Bperk420 22:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If they didn't graduate, it should be noted in the format currently used. A long time ago, I tried to remove non-graduates, thinking they weren't technically "alumni", but someone pointed out (correctly, it turns out) that they do not need to be graduates to be considered "alumni". However, there is the parenthesis format to note if they didn't graduate, which can and should be used in all cases. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MiamiDolphins3 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

The Alumni section dominates this article. For a few examples of alumni subpages, see List of Georgia Institute of Technology alumni, List of Cornell University people, etc. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 22:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The alumni section is fine and is, in fact, maybe the most interesting and valuable part of the article. Would strongly suggest keeping it as is, at least for now, unless it grew too much larger. MiamiDolphins3 00:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the "Current NFL players" section: it's unfortunate that football players are considered notable and worthy of inclusion simply because they spend their lives playing sports while the names of artists, scientists, teachers, civil servants, and businessmen associated with the university must meet a higher standard of notoriety. --Do go be man 00:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The simple rule of inclusion is as follows: The individual has an article on Wikipedia, they have passed the following guideline: Notability of people. That means that if they have an article and they are alumni, they get listed here. I am sure that there are several other people who have attended the University of Miami that are not athletes; it is just that we do not have articles on them on Wikipedia. The school of arts and sciences is the largest here on campus, with most students biology majors going for pre-med. If one of them becomes a doctor who finds the cure for cancer, then they'll be listed here. But a normal pediatrician or surgeon is not going to get an article.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Law & Politics Alumni

With the addition of Patricia Ireland to the alumni section, I wonder: Should she be recategorized in the field of politics? Or perhaps we should merge the two fields, as politicians are often renowned lawyers and vice versa? -- SwissCelt 10:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm still trying to figure out if she counts as being a School of Law grad :/ Miamidolphins will figure it out.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand. Aren't recipients of graduate degrees considered alumni? -- SwissCelt 03:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I placed her on the School of Law page since her bio said she went to University of Tennessee and then UM School of Law. I think this is most appropriate but I don't feel too strongly about it. MiamiDolphins3 13:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I readded her, per SwissCelt's observation. MiamiDolphins3 02:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

The following changes need to be made; I'll add more as I think of them.

—Disavian (talk/contribs) 22:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

A few other comments:

  • Create a campus section, perhaps including the points of interest.
  • Expand the lead, as per WP:LEAD
  • Sections in rankings seem too small and should be condensed into a single paragraph

Danski14 03:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I see no effort being put forth to comply with our recommendations. If I don't see some action soon, I'm going to go ahead and fail it. Besides, the amount of work needed to bring this article to GA status will take a long, long time. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 17:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Failing it now. You're welcome to reapply once you've made some effort to solve those problems. I also recommend that you get a peer review. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 04:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
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