Talk:University of Health Sciences Antigua
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To Dean: Wrong. While it is true that UHSA graduates are having licensing problems in some US states (which IMG doesn't?), it has nothing to do with the teaching at UHSA, but with bad students (a major problem among foreign schools) that got admitted to the school only with the intention of appending the M.D. to their names and not get officially and fully licensed. Nevertheless, the good students have been licensed physicians in various US states, and its medical program has been approved by many boards. Most of its faculty are American trained and clinicals are held in US hospitals. Additionally, I’m open to any type of discussion and changes in this UHSA article only if Robo doc (or you) provide valid qualifications that put you in a position to contribute to this article in an intelligent way – instead of posting links to a bunch of websites and providing conflicting remarks to my post. Apparently, neither you nor robo doc are qualified to post here. It is also apparent (from your contributions) that you are a member of Wikipedia for the sole purpose of defaming foreign medical schools. And yes, I have reported Robo md, who registered only for posting in this article. DrGladwin
You are not in a position to demand anything other than proper citations and the state sites from Texas,California, Indiana, Kansas, Oregon, and others are legitimate items which should be available in Wikepedia. If you insist on not allowing input you will end up getting banned. Azskeptic 03:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
To Dean: As a current student at UHSA, and creator of this article, yes, I'm in a position to oversee what is posted. CA only approved a handful of medical schools in the world. Now you tell me, is it legitimate to defame other non-approved schools by calling them inferior? Three years back, schools like Ross and AUC were also banned, does that mean they are bad schools? If you insist on vandalizing this article (and other articles), you might end up getting banned – and even dragged to court for personal damages. DrGladwin
To Robo doc: I am a student at that university which means I have first hand experience, and it is you who must prove what you claim. You must prove things true to add them. Not add them, and then demand them to be proven false to be removed. And this has nothing to do with spamming the article with external links. DrGladwin
Excuse ME
To Gladwin: Let me see if I understand. I post legitimate links to states that may question aspects of a given school or schools and I need to prove them true? It´s in the public domain, it´s not my job to prove them true, it´s up to the university (UHSA) to prove them un-true. UHSA can start by suing the State of Texas its their list, not mine, you don´t see me with a list, do you? Since when does an individual need to be "qualified" to post "here"? Where does one earn or buy such credentials? Intelligence is not an objective qualification for posting either, but you knew that right? Robo doc 03:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
To Robo doc: Wrong. Your links are to certain US governmental agencies that have nothing to do with accrediting foreign medical schools. For example, all foreign medical schools are banned by the LCME, so, should we - according to your theory - post something like "this school is banned by LCME" on articles of ALL foreign medical schools? A medical school in Nepal Manipal College of Medical Sciences is banned from CA. Try posting "This school is banned in an American State" on their website and see what happens. Second, you’re spamming this article with 3rd party links solely for the purpose of publicizing/marketing them on Wikipedia. Third, you are criticizing my posts (which are from first hand experience). Then you say that intelligence is not an objective qualification for posting. What exactly is your agenda? Why did you join Wikipedia? Have you ever made at least one non-inflammatory contribution to an article before? I have nothing against you and Az. I just hope you understand what I'm trying to say. DrGladwin
Bold textTo Gladwin. Market a website for certain US governmental agencies? New to me. For a "medical student" at UHSA you have alot of time on your hands, but then again, are you a medical student or are you related to the owner? If I read you correctly Gladwin, only intelligent people can post on Wikipedia, is that specifically written into the TOS, I missed it. The links have relevance to the outcome of studying at UHSA. A neutral position would be for you to post a warning that people(s) of the following states: LIST THEM maybe need to consider external parameters before enrolling at UHSA. On the other hand don´t lecture me the links I posted on "having nothing to do" with accreditation, since WHO nor ECFMG accredits anyone, they only list, so posting the WHO and ECFMG and IMED links under ACCREDITATION is well.........you know........behave Gladwin the world is a better place if you do.Robo doc 13:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
To Robo doc: Yes I do have a lot of time on my hands – at least for another week as I’m on vacation (hence I took the pains and liberty of learning Wiki-script and making this article). You should try doing it sometime. Since you've finally learnt some decency in posting, I have no more arguments. Case dismissed. By the way, did you try posting “unaccredited by LCME” and “Banned in some American States” under the Manipal College of Medical Sciences article (after all, they, too, have listed WHO and ECFMG on their article)? In fact, click on a foreign medical schools category and post your words in all their articles to see what happens. DrGladwin
Look at St. Chris's wikipedia page.Azskeptic 16:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
St. Chris has been banned from all boards including removed from W.H.O. listing and the international medical school directory. It's even banned in the very country that hosts it. What's that got to do with UHSA? DrGladwin
Can UHSA graduates license in Antigua? Azskeptic 19:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Robo doc: Your link to CA board is broken. Either repost it correctly or I'll take the whole thing off. DrGladwin
Gladwin Good show ole chap! Thanks for the information on the broken link, it is now corrected. There are many if not most schools that play the "accredited by WHO & ECFMG" card, and in time they will be asked to correct this information. If you are in deed a student and if you are indeed content with your choice of School then I am left with nothing else to say than: Good Luck. Robo doc 20:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The program is fully accredited by the local government. I’m doing the traditional 4-year, on-campus program. While it is true that UHSA has had some management problems in the past, then, to make things worse, they began the questionable hybrid online/on-campus program with advanced standing to other allied health professionals (this program is not meant for individuals that seek US licensure), the fact is, UHSA is not a bad school. With the recent change in administration, we’re slowly getting back on track. This school is fully licensed in my state and some of my seniors have done greenbook rotations in US teaching hospitals - I even called the boards on this one. If one works hard, does well on USMLEs and on clinical shelf exams, they can become very good doctors. Why did I choose UHSA? My family doctor is an alumnus and owns a family practice. In the long run, the question becomes: “Are you good at saving lives?” - not - “Which medical school did you attend?” DrGladwin
Have to admit you surprised me that you realized that the online program is not good for UHSA. If you are a residential student I stand corrected; I do not oppose students attending medical school physically. I do oppose people working fulltime and supposedly attending medical school online. How do you stand on that?Azskeptic 22:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm fully with you on this one Azskeptic. The online program is a special program that works only with advanced standing - it is a 10 month USMLE1 prep course for retired biology professors, dentists, chiros, and PAs. The online program shouldn't be taken too seriously because, according to my best knowledge, it is not accredited anywhere in the world, and is meant for former retirees who just want the "M.D." without all the licensing. On the contrary, the University of Chicago is researching on robotic surgery during which surgeons based in the US will perform life-saving operations, through the Internet, on people in war-torn countries in Africa, even on astronauts in space. Is UHSA too ahead of its time? We may never know. As of now, an online graduate - by choice - has never been accredited. DrGladwin
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- UPDATE: It has come to my knowledge that the ECFMG gives full rights to WHO accredited foreign medical school to accept credits for advanced standing from other programs. Graduates from foreign medical schools with advanced standing have been matched to residencies in the US. I have striked my previous and apparently inaccurate comments. My apologies for the misinformation. DrGladwin 00:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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- There is a 15MB pdf document that has been circulating among IMGs. This document outlines the various IMG licensure requirements by specific states. Some states accept advanced standing and some don't. I'll try to get back here soon with more details and a way to link that document here. DrGladwin 03:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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The problem is this. State medical boards believe that the online program is what you are doing. You have obviously seen the court case in Kansas, the ruling in Indiana banning students who attend schools that are online,etc. How do you handle that professionally? You'll be looking over your shoulder forever.Azskeptic 02:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
You don't have to worry about it because the school is fully accredited in my state of residence. DrGladwin
Provide a source it is accredited. WHO does not accredit, states and private organizations accredit. Also removing sources is vandalism.
The Bottom Line:
The article is misleading, and does not even withstand scrutiny of its own statements. The article states that UHSA is not accredited by any accreditation body; then states "The UHSA School of Medicine is accredited hence registered with the Government of Antigua and Barbuda." This is confusing. The author clearly has no grasp of logic. He states UHSA has no accreditation by any accrediting body, then states it is accredited by the government of Antigua and Barbuda, an accrediting body.
What the article should say is that UHSA, like many other foreign medical schools, is not accredited by any United States accreditation body. Accreditation of UHSA is up to its host government, Antigua and Barbuda, which does indeed accredit the school. So the initial statement is contradictory, misleading, and wrong. Will all foreign medical schools in Wiki also be labeled as "non-accredited"? A medical school in any country is "accredited" by the standards within that country. The Association of American Medical Colleges is not an international/global accreditation body.
UHSA is a foreign medical school that awards M.D. degrees, as well as other degrees. If people have a problem with the curriculum, methods, and standards of the institution, fine. But that is not an accreditation issue in the sense of U.S. accreditation bodies. In other words, it could be the best medical shcool on planet Earth and it would still be "not accredited" from the U.S. perspective. Furthermore, to be licensed to practice medicine in the United States, M.D. degree-holders from foreign medical schools must still pass the USMLE and meet other requirements.
The "diploma mill" charge is also without merit. One guy wrote an article under the banner "consumer advocates" (and what is that, exactly? Is it accredited?) who made that charge and the charge is repeated here. Why? One guy says it and so it must be true? If you want to argue UHSA is a substandard institution then you may go ahead, but the diploma mill charge suggests there are no classes, no instructors, and no campus, and the entire enterprise is a "pay for degree" scam. There are enough former instructors and students of UHSA who demonstrate that this is not the case. Anyone is free to visit St. John's and sit in on a class and watch as tests are administered.
I also take issue with "some US states have blacklisted UHSA." As compared to other foreign schools? The actual states are Texas, California, and Indiana. I believe there are 50 states, so in other words, UHSA is OK in 94% of the USA. The same portion of the article could also state that and be more accurate. These states also ban other foreign medical schools, so why not tell the whole story?
The dentist in Kansas was wrong for using "M.D." and not having a medical license. This issue is unrelated to UHSA, its accreditation, and its curriculum. The dentist could have an M.D. from Harvard or Pakistan or Indonesia, he would still be at fault for not having a medical license in that state.
The attempt to use Wiki to link UHSA to "diploma mill" is an obvious, transparent attempt at Internet slander. UHSA offers credit for post-graduate basic science courses if those courses have been taken elsewhere at other post-graduate medical institutions. This general practice is common for universities and colleges within and outside the U.S.A.
UHSA also offers on-line course work for a limited selection of courses. Again, distance learning and Internet-based curricula are found in institutions of higher learning within and outside the U.S.A. Neither of these issues warrants any remotely justified use of "diploma mill" or any suggestion or reference to accusation thereof. To do so is blatantly slanderous, false, and without basis in fact.
Finally, it is not a crime to use degrees awarded by UHSA, as the article tries to imply. Another attempt at slander. It may be a crime in some jurisdictions to try to represent yourself as an M.D. if you are not licensed. And if the licensing board does not recognize your foreign degree, then you cannot legally get a license in that state. Those circumstances cannot and should not be construed to mean that having a degree from UHSA is a crime, as the author would like us to believe.
The Wiki article is obviously biased and authored by an individual who has an "axe to grind."
NOTE: Not sure who wrote the above article from Louisiana but I beg to differ on many things.
Some states specifically mention UHSA in their lists as not being allowed. There are FEW schools that fall into that category. Azskeptic 17:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
