Talk:University of Constantinople

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[edit] Question

Does it still exist? 128.232.250.254 22:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, found elsewhere on Wikipedia, it doesn't. 128.232.250.254 22:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recognized as University?

That is really curious, considering the word University did not even exist in the 9th century, I'd sure like to know who did the "recognizing". -- Stbalbach 03:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi my anti-Greek friend (yes I have been following your edits), this WAS a University, even if the specific word was not used it does not change the fact that in effect it performed the functions of what we would consider a university.

LOL. I don't hate Greeks. No signature? Why don't you login first and I'll clear up any misconceptions you have.

Anyway, actually it was not a University, except by analogy. A University is defined as being an *autonomous* institution. That means it is not owned and controlled by the state. There have been institutions of higher learning since the time of the Ancient Greeks, but we do not call them "Universities" (except sometimes by analogy). The term University means something, and has specific meaning and origin, it was first applied to Western European institutions that were *autonomous* from the state. This is all supportable in the academic literature, there is a recognized difference between Universities and schools of higher learning that came before. Calling a 9th century Byzantine institution a University is problematic, anachronistic and the "recognized as" part is really very funny - who recognized it, what does that mean exactly? It just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of where the word University came from and what it means. It's like cultures who use the word "Renaissance" or "Feudalism" outside of their historical context (13th C Italy and Medieval Europe, respectively) -- Stbalbach 14:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source for first university

The source provided is not very good, it is an English professors web page - no peer review or any professional publication. I can find many more sources that say just the opposite. This one for example says "The first medieval "university" is usually said to be Bologna". The source also does not give any information on who called it a university and when? My guess is that didn't happen until long after it was destroyed. -- Stbalbach 15:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It does say on 849 by Vardas. In addition, do not expect to see the english term 'university' or its latin original when refering to the University of Constantinople. As i have told u, it was called 'Pandidaktirion', the equivelent of the latin word. Apropos, the modern greek universities are called 'Panepistimio', yet, they are universities even though the english word is not in the Greek title... --Hectorian 15:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

About the source, i guess u are right... I'll search to find a better one. Hectorian 15:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Does "Pandidaktirion" mean Patriarchal? My source for the Byzantine university article called it the Patriarchal School. But in any case it is still a poor source, a better source is needed. I also think your making generalizations and analogies - based on the line of reasoning, every Byzantine school since the 5th century could be called a University - where do you draw the line, why this one and not earlier ones? Also the vast majority of English sources call Bolgna and/or Paris the first "medieval universities". Even if your right, this needs to be recognized - we report on what people do, not what we think they should do. -- Stbalbach 17:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No, "Pandidaktirion" and "Patriarchal" have different etymology and none of them indicates or implies relation to the other. Maybe in that source it was named 'Patriarchal School' cause of its relationship with the Church (no need to repeat the relationship of all medieval universities with the Churches). No other Byzantine Institute has ever been called 'University'... this one has, cause this is what the word "Pandidaktirion" means (no other had this name in Medieval Greek-speaking part of Europe. so, no reason to include earlier/other Byzantine schools. since u say that the vast majority of English sources call Bologna and/or Paris the first "medieval universities", why is it Bologna first, and not Paris? I guess cause there is a source claiming that it was established earlier. There are also sources claiming that the U.of Const. was indeed a Uni. and was established even earlier. English sources are not the sole and only sources, not even for the English Wikipedia, especially when they contradict each other. Hectorian 17:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are differences of views - the Greek word Pandidaktirion meant University -- but in what sense? How was this University different from Bologna? If you look at its name "University of the palace hall of Magnavra Byzantine Empire" - this was a school set up by, maintained and funded by the "palace hall" ie. the state and the emperor. It was not an independent self-funded autonomous institution. This is why historians differentiate between Universities as we know them today - autonomously operating institutions - and those paid for and controlled by the state, which go back to the Ancient world. We don't call Charlemagne's schools Universities, or King Albert's schools Universities, they were state-run and controlled. I'm not sure Etymology is a good reason - words change meaning - what did "University" mean in the context of 9th century Byzantium versus 11th century Italy? I'm not trying to downgrade Constantinople's importance or deny it being called a University, it has many characteristics that one would call "University" such as a corporation of students being the primary one, but then of course so did older schools as well - how do we draw the line to the "first" University? I would not be surprised to lean that the word University was borrowed from Byzantine teachers who left the east for the west -- but the meaning of the word changed along the way because the institutions in the west were different from those in the east, indeed the Universities in Bologna was historically a break from the past it was entirely different and new in how it was structured and operated. -- Stbalbach 13:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The University of Constantinople was indeed set up and funded by the state and the emperor. And so, the University of Bologna evolved from a Catholic monastery and was funded by the Catholic Church and the Pope... Drawing the line can be tricky, u know... --Hectorian 19:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)