Talk:University of British Columbia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Universities, an attempt to standardise coverage of Universities and colleges. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Vancouver Portal	This article is part of WikiProject Vancouver, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada and the surrounding metropolitan area. To participate, edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
	If you have rated this article please consider adding assessment comments.

This article is part of WikiProject Education in Canada, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Education in Canada. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

	This article is part of WikiProject British Columbia, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to British Columbia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.	British Columbia Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High	This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
	If you have rated this article please consider adding assessment comments.

Contents 1 Wreck Beach 2 UBC Crest 3 Martha Piper 4 Instructors 5 Alumni 6 Location 7 External links and references 8 Black Hand 9 External links 10 endowment 11 Sororities/fraternities 12 Who needs paragraphs? 13 Weasel words 14 Too Long 15 Reorganization and cleanup 16 Carl Wieman 17 Pictures 18 frats 19 Criticisms 20 Featured Article status 21 Endowment

[edit] Wreck Beach

Is this the University that has a nude beach on campus. No joke. I was woundering if it was this one or BCU. Hmoleman00

Wreck Beach, euphemistically described as "clothing optional" is in the parklands surrounding the UBC campus, yes. -- GWO

It's not a euphemism. It is clothing optional. Exploding Boy 18:06, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] UBC Crest

Image:UBC-Crest.png The UBC crest image was originally uploaded onto Wikimedia Commons, but as a logo, it is copyrighted and thus not usable there. I have thus moved the image to Wikipedia.

Kelvinc 11:08, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have uploaded the current UBC logo to Image:UBC-Crest.png. It is a little more practical to use than the old Coat of Arms, and according to http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/ubclogo/guidelines.html, the old Coat of Arms is used only for ceremonial purposes. --Greenmind 07:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Martha Piper

Martha Piper recently announced that she will be stepping down in 2006. [[User:Consequencefree|Ardent^†_∈]] 22:51, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Instructors

Wasn't Daniel Kahneman, noble laureate in economics, a professor at UBC? Should he be included in the list of famous instructors? Coleca 00:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

Beverley McLachlin was not a UBC student as stated on this page, though she did teach at UBC. Her official biography can be found at: http://www.scc-csc.gc.ca/aboutcourt/judges/mclachlin/index_e.asp

[edit] Location

Just want some opinions here: in the infobox, would "Vancouver, British Columbia" be more accurate, or would "University Endowment Lands, British Columbia" work better? It's just that it's a little misleading to say UBC is in Vancouver when, technically, it does not fall under Vancouver city limits. --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 06:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that UBC is within Vancouver city limits, except for a small region which is the Musqueum (sp?) reserve. All campus addresses are "Vancouver, BC". I have never heard of the endowment lands being referred to as anything but a part of Vancouver, and I think it's pretty confusing to do so here. Where did you hear that UBC isn't technically in Vancouver? TastyCakes 00:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I just read the article on the endowment lands, I didn't realize it was technically outside of Vancouver proper. I do think we should leave the infobox as Vancouver, people want an overview of the University and if they read "University Endowment Lands" they have no idea where it is. TastyCakes 00:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

UBC is not within Vancouver city limits. There is a distinction between the UEL and Vancouver -- the UEL is governed by the GVRD, not Vancouver. Check out [1]. This was also mentioned previously at Archive1 of the Vancouver discussion pages. The City of Vancouver website also exludes the UEL in its community pages [2] as it is not considered part of Vancouver. I know this might be confusing (like how people think Vancouver International Airport is in Vancouver). This deals with technical facts more than anything. I do think there should be a distinction between Vancouver and the UEL somewhere in the userbox because there is a tendancy for people to look for UBC within the city limits of Vancouver (and not finding it, obviously). I think something like "University Endowment Lands of Vancouver" would sound more accurate and less misleading. --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 01:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

For the simplicity of the info box I still think Vancouver is better, and readers can get the details of UBC's exact status (if they care, which I somewhat doubt) in the article. I don't really care one way or the other though. TastyCakes 04:05, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright. I still think it's misleading and incorrect, but I'll settle for it since the reasons behind it are noble. I did modify the opening sentence though, to make the distinction between Vancouver and the UEL a bit clearer: "The University of British Columbia (UBC) is a public university with its main campus located at Point Grey, in the University Endowment Lands adjacent to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada..." Hope there aren't any objections. --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 07:18, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Another point to consider is that the mailing address for all of the UEL uses Vancouver. As another option, we could add a footnote --Usgnus 19:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

"The University Endowment Lands community (also known as University Hill) is situated adjacent to the campus to the east," http://www.ubc.ca/about/campus.html -- Therefore UBC isn't in the endowment lands. The UEL is a separate entity with no power over the affairs of the university's lands.

You are confusing the meaning of the sentence. It is talking about the University Endowment Lands COMMUNITY, not the University Endowment Lands. The campus is the property of UBC which is within the UEL, much like how a part of Burnaby Mountain belongs to SFU, which is within Burnaby. -→Buchanan-Hermit™/?! 10:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links and references

There are a few external links that link to clubs, etc. which, in my opinion, are not necessary nor appropriate for an encyclopedic article. Also, I'd like to use wikipedias referencing system instead of having in-line links. I will clean this up so that it meets wikipedia standards. Andrewjuren (talk) 22:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a quick wack at cleaning up this article a bit. It still needs: removal of unneccessary external links (e.g. an article about The Ubyssey already exists, so why have an external link? Wikipedia is not a soap box!) Also, more references would help, some claims could use substantiation. Andrewjuren (talk) 23:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Hand

What is the deal with black hand? It looks like soap boxing to me? have they actaully done anything that matters?

Ya really why are they important when the engineers have actually done some things that are creative (Golden Gate Bridge) and gained international attention.

Yeah, I'm regretting voting to merge. It doesn't really fit here.. Is there any chance of opening up the discussion on deleting it again? TastyCakes 08:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

How's this for a deal? Undelete the separate The Black Hand (UBC) page and it won't get in the way of the main UBC page. I would support that, as well as starting pages about UBC engineers and their stunts. By the way, Engineering Undergraduate Society of the University of British Columbia already has a page on Wikipedia, and it is notable.--Nick Dillinger 08:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's because the engineering guys have more than a small paragraph about their society... Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 08:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The Black Hands was longer than one paragraph. I have saved it, and will present it in this talk page. It also included 3 pictures of multiple pranks, with links to multiple other past pranks:

The Black Hand (UBC) (Whose full name is reportedly Not The Sinister Icy Black Hand Of Death Enforcement Faction And Donut Sale Division Of The Science Undergraduate Society Of The University Of British Coumbia) is a mysterious organization of pranksters which operates primarily on the Point Grey campus [3] of the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, BC, Canada. The secretive group which, ironically, claims not to exist, has carried out a number of reported pranks over the years. These pranks are often elaborate and highly visible and have attracted attention from the University's official student-run newspaper, The Ubyssey [4], on several occasions.

The most recent prank attributed to the Black Hand was discovered on 27 February 2006: a castle or fortress built of bricks and mortar inside the office of the University of British Columbia Alma Mater Society President, wrapping around the President's desk, ostensibly to welcome incoming President Kevin Keystone to his first day on the job. This prank has also been jointly attributed to the members of the Engineering Undergraduate Society - UBC as a small red ‘E’, the symbol of the UBC Engineers, was painted on the castle wall beside a large painted black hand.

Previous pranks include ‘drawing’ an enormous hand on Koerner Library [5] and laying a lawn of real grass in the UBC Arts Undergraduate Society [6] office.

The black hand has no place on a UBC article as it is not an official part of the university and unless wikipedia wants to include pranks by all groups and individuals on campus such as the routine vandalism of the Cairn, they should be seperated from the UBC article at a minimum. If not, all groups on campus that have participated in pranks should add themselves in a fashion such as the black hand, this will include just about every club and residence floor on campus which will definatly increase the UBC content.

I say, allow them all to have articles. Having the ability to have extra content is good, and won't have to get in the way of the major articles. Include the other groups into Wikipedia as well. --Nick Dillinger 09:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm against the Black Hand having articles because I don't think there is anything yet that makes them notable. This is one of the pillars for all Wikipedia articles. A reference in a student news paper and pictures in a couple personal blogs hardly makes a group notable. In one years time will any one except this groups own members even remember that is existed? I'm doubt full --Nootka 09:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Whether the Black Hand gets an article or not doesn't matter per se, it just doesn't belong here. deadkid_dk 11:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to personally congratulate all of those member of the Black Hand Group for their pranks; however, I think they need to realize their pranks are trivial and have no place on UBC's official encyclopedia entry. If someone who does not attend UBC is reading this article and sees this information about the Black Hand I think it tarnishes the University's prestigious stance in the academic world. The name "Black Hand: may also be interpretted by some as Racism as well and UBC is a University known to embrace diversity.

I'm removing it for now, it can be moved into its own article if it gets to have one. deadkid_dk 08:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

• Student blog featuring photos of the Black Hand's AMS President's office prank 2005: a castle
• Photos of the Black Hand's AMS President's office prank 2005: recycling bins
• UBC Engineering Undergraduate Society
• The Ubyssey: UBC's student-run newspaper
• UBC Point Grey Campus Map

--Nick Dillinger 08:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] endowment

Corrected endowment fund http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/ubcfacts/index.html is 633.8 million CDN

[edit] Sororities/fraternities

Should this section be here? Should it be shortened? What do others think? TastyCakes 04:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind it being there, but it doesn't deserve a huge section. I mean, is there something that makes the sororities/frats at UBC unique? What's being written can pretty much be said for most sororities/frats in other institutions. In other words, a paragraph would be great, but it doesn't deserve a huge section like that. Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 04:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It's got its own page now.. TastyCakes 05:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a feeling it will be deleted though... Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 05:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Possible.. hehe. I think it makes more sense as a short little article on its own than a big plug on the main page though. TastyCakes 05:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep, got nominated for deletion, as "club-cruft." Not surprised. There's a lot of stuff but it's mostly self-promotional material (club promoting itself through Wikipedia). The stuff about frats and sororities should be shortened into one paragraph, maximum. Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 05:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

i dont know about it being all self promotional. i mean its talking about them at UBC not just in general. sure there will be alittle bit of bias but you can find that on any wikipedia page. I've taken it down a little bit. I think its mostly the sorority part thats a little lengthy.--216.232.27.184 05:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that it's still going into too much detail. I think simply saying something like "There is a frat/sor system at UBC which has existed since 19xx. At present, it consists of approximately xx members and have connections to so-and-so frats/sors in some-other-university. The system has produced many notable people and celebrities, such as John Doe, John Smith, John Smithson, etc. The frats/sors are located mostly along Wesbrook Mall south of the main campus." would work just fine. It won't go into too much unnecessary detail and it doesn't sound promotional. Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 05:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

After consulting the Wikipedia policies, I had to delete the entire sororities section because it is a copyright violation from [7]. As a CopyVio, it is eligible to be speedily deleted, which I had to do here for that particular section. Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 07:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who needs paragraphs?

I'd like to comment that the current "article" about UBC seems to start of with a few good paragraphs (about history, university today) but deteriorates into many lists (libraries, faculties and schools, alumni, sites of interest, student services and residences, sports and recreation, student media, chancellors and presidents, etc.). I'd like to propose that the lists be split into seperate list articles (as appropriate) and that the main article be re-written in a form more appropriate for an encyclopedia. Comments? Andrewjuren(talk) 07:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, everything past a certain point seems to be bullets. TastyCakes 05:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reworked the Library section so that only the less significant libraries are in list form. Exploding Boy 05:09, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this will help: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Education_in_Canada#Universities_and_colleges. In addition, I think there's enough info to create a UBC Library article. Usgnus 06:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

"The University of British Columbia consistently ranks as a top Canadian university by both national and international rankings, as well as a top 30 world university in related rankings." --Ardenn 04:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a point? Exploding Boy 04:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words don't really give a neutral point of view; they just spread hearsay, or couch personal opinion in vague, indirect syntax. It is better to put a name and a face on an opinion than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source. Ardenn 04:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

• And how exactly, is the above passage not, NPOV? It's stating a fact. Are you saying that the rankings are false? pm_shef 04:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing to say they're true. Ardenn 04:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that for a statement about rankings it should explicitly say which rankings put UBC high up. The fact that the two sources for this are RE$EARCH INFO SOURCE and Shanghai Jiao Tong University, neither of which I've ever heard of before, do make me, as a casual reader, less impressed. TastyCakes 04:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I disagree with Ardenn's method of listing many Canadian University articles with {{weasel}}, I do agree that the wording can be adjusted slightly. I've made the change, let me know if it's good enough. I have to agree with TastyCakes, that neither of these two sources seems particularily reliable. Andrewjuren(talk) 05:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I honestly don't know what you're tlaking about. First of all, which words are the "weasel words" you're talking about? Second, the claim is referenced. What more do you want, exactly? Exploding Boy 05:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd use "weasel words" to describe the problem as I see it. To me the biggest thing was the article said "ranked high in international and national rankings" which sounds pretty good but if you take the effort to follow the number and the link it leads to you get to some university in China and some Canadian ranking company I've never heard of. How does UBC do in better known international rankings, like the Wall Street Journal, the princeton review and so on? TastyCakes 05:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too Long

Why is this article listed as being too long? By what criteria is that determined? TastyCakes 04:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It tells you when you edit the article that it's too long. Ardenn 04:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Generally speaking, wikipedia recommends that articles should be about 30KB long. This article is about 32KB long, thereby exceeding the recommended length by a bit. Personally, I think this article needs some serious re-writing and the movement of some content to subarticles. I'll work on this when I have some time (likely AFTER exams). Andrewjuren(talk) 04:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

See my comment above about "who needs paragraphs?" Andrewjuren(talk) 04:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Fixed 02:48, 16 April 2006 by User:NeoThe1 [8] . Andrewjuren(talk) 16:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization and cleanup

Having looked at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Education_in_Canada#Universities_and_colleges I think we could really clean up this article. I agree with the user above that the UBC Library could have its own article, to which we can move the bulk of the information given here.

For convenience, here's the suggested template from the Education project:

Universities and colleges The article should start with a good introduction, giving the full complete official name of the college/university, detail about location (in suburb, downtown, where?), founder and founding name, and affilation with any larger university system, if applicable. Give other names for which the university may be known (e.g. Cal, and bold them, too). Also, add a few facts about the college/university that make it unique.

Next, there is a table about the college/university. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Sections of the article:

• Campus -- Describe the overall shape and size of the campus. Mention any famous buildings and their architects. However, it's best not to go into such detail that only a student/staff member would be interested in, or know what's being talk about. For some smaller colleges the "campus" might be one simple building, and may not warrant its own section.
• Organization -- Mention the administration, including leading officials. If this college/university has a special organizational structure, such as a residential college system, then it should be mentioned here. Then, in bullet point form, list the schools, colleges, etc. of this university. If appropriate, also list the faculties and departments at the university. If there is a special course system or requisits for enrollment, mention them here, too. If the university is part of a larger system (as in University of California), mention this connection and provide requisite links.
• Students and faculty -- State the number (and any other useful statistics) of the students. Distinguish between undergraduate, graduate and postgraduate students; also state the number of faculty members. Distinguish between tenure/nontenured, full- and part-time (if possible).
• Sports, clubs, and traditions -- Mention the sports team(s) of the college/university and what is notable about them. Here is also a good place to mention specific traditions of the college/university, like students' union activities, a student newspaper, fraternities, regular activities, etc. The heading may be changed accordingly in regard to the importance of sports, clubs, traditions, students' unions etc. For example, alternative headings could be Students' Union, Sports and Traditions or Students' Union Activities.
• History -- Describe the history of the college/university, including noteworthy milestones in its development.
• Notable alumni -- Bullet list of Alumni that are notable/famous. Mention the graduation date and degree and give a short description why they are famous.
• Notable -- Bullet list of active and former members of faculty that are notable. If they are alumni/alumnae, mention them here in parenthesis, including the degree and graduation date. For all give a short description why they are famous.
• References - List articles and other sources (online and/or offline) that independently confirm information in the article. Information should not be based solely on what the relevant institution shows.
• External links -- Give a link to the website of the college/university, preferable in English language.

Exploding Boy 06:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Carl Wieman

Is there a reason Carl Wieman is in the introductory paragraph rather than in the famous instructors or elsewhere? I mean I'm sure he's great and all but... TastyCakes 20:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Please, be bold. Andrewjuren(talk) 07:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

• This page has way too many pictures and listing the faculties and departments on the page is cumbersome. Use a template instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.57.131.188 (talk • contribs).
  • Can you suggest a template? Andrewjuren(talk)
• How about a picture of the Goddess of Democracy, erected by the school's Alma Mater Society that stands in SUB plaza? It would be perefect for commons:Category:Goddess of Democracy. --evrik 01:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] frats

The article Fraternities and Sororities at the University of British Columbia was deleted a few weeks ago because it was copyvio. It looks like it may not exist in the forseeable future, so I've removed it from the opening paragraph. But left it in the "See also" section because I think that an article on the Fraternities and Sororities at UBC will eventually exist. Andrewjuren(talk) 16:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms

I've removed the "Criticisms" section and placed it here for discussion. This is most definitely not an attempt to whitewash the University, or to squelch negative comments. However, as is most other Wikipedia articles which have "Criticism" sections, they quickly become repositories for any negative comments people wish to make against the subject, often without any references or attempts at context. The text I've removed today is as follows:

• Construction around the campus, some of it related to the 2010 Winter Olympics, has progressed slowly, creating long detours for vehicles and inconveniences for pedestrians. The construction has focused primarily on academic buildings, parking lots and private housing, while student social spaces such as the Abdul Ladha Science Student Centre have been delayed by over two years.^{[citation needed]}
• As the cost of living in Vancouver continues to rise, reasonable affordable housing close to campus is increasingly difficult to find and students must often commute for an hour each way to reach campus. Meanwhile, on campus housing for students is low on the list of priorities for the institution.
• Tuition fees for UBC have risen drastically in the last decade and there are few scholarship or bursary opportunities available for students unable to keep up with the fee increases.

As I've indicated, I have no problem with incorporating balanced, referenced text that is of a critical nature. However, I'd like to propose that the editors of this page vet entries for such a section here, on the talk page, before they "go live" in the article. That way, we can ensure that material in the article is well-supported, rather than continually having to maintain something that is little more than a "rumour mill". Thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 03:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article status

Thoughts? Vranak

[edit] Endowment

People, for the love of God stop assuming astronomical financial endowment figures. UBC's reported endowment is C$700M as reported by the treasury: http://www.treasury.ubc.ca/invest.html This number may not be up to date, but it's the best figure we have. In the past month, the figure was edited 4 times. Please refrain from changing it because this entails A LOT of cross referencing. The figure is cited in at least 6 other articles. I'll leave it 875M as it is but I implore you; please change it back or cite a proper source and do the necessary cross check. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ahm2307 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

No way UBC's endowment is higher than McGills. You people have so much pride makes me sick.

1) I'm a UBC alumnus.

2) It's not a competition. 3) Endowment has nothing to do with academic reputation or excellence.

blah blah blah alumnus —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.218.216.166 (talk) 07:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC).