Talk:University College Dublin - National University of Ireland, Dublin

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I restored the times world ranking of ucd as it is very relevant to the irish goverments 3rd level investment policy at the moment.Just because it doesnt flatter ucd doesnt mean it should not be included.I also made it less subjective. Gerfinch 23:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)gerfinch

I removed the spurious addition to Reputation which began "Though not as widely known as Trinity College Dublin," this is no place for petty rivalries.

I have re-inserted Bertie Ahern's name among the alumni of UCD. The Fianna Fail website says that Bertie went to UCD (see www.fiannafail.ie) and so does the UCD website (see www.ucd.ie/economic/Masters/Masters.htm). I think that is sufficient evidence for the inclusion of Bertie Ahern's name.

What did Bertie actually do in UCD? Was it a masters or what? If he didn't complete a program, as the article seems to indicate, isn't this a case of dubious name-dropping?

A photo of the campus is definately needed. --Jasonm 03:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

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Archived material: Talk:National University of Ireland, Dublin

I have moved the article from " National University of Ireland, Dublin" to "University College Dublin - National University of Ireland, Dublin" to reflect its official title. Djegan 17:17, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Title 2 UCD gets a new name 3 Arms and the Man 4 Coca-Cola Ban 5 Irish name 6 UCD Budget 7 Recent edits 8 Media 9 Eamon de Valera 10 union or university

[edit] Title

NUID-UCD is better than just NUID but i think it's a little unwieldy. There seems to be a convention on wikipedia that when the official title of something is either really long or not commonly used by normal people that a shorter title is used for the name of the article. See, for example, Soviet Union instead of "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" and European Convention on Human Rights instead of "Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms".

The first line of the text currently reads:

University College Dublin - National University of Ireland, Dublin - more commonly University College Dublin (UCD) - is Ireland's largest university, with over 20,000 students.

I think if the wording is kept this way that's sufficient to give appropriate prominence to the full official title. We could also add a footnote explaining that there's a sort of naming dispute. Iota 01:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I understand your point - the official title is rather long and excessive - essentially their is a dispute, as explained in Talk:National University of Ireland, Dublin (the publication "The NUI Federal University in an Era of Transition", NUI, 2002 articulates this). Ultimately the title should reflect that the constituent university has long evolved beyond the point were it is a kind of 19th century university college and theirfore the official name, including "university", should remain prominant so as to reinforce its status - university colleges have all but disappeared in most countries been replaced by independent universities. As for NUID this should be avoided as it is an almost unheard of abbreviation, UCD still remains common.

Ultimately some people will refer to the institution as "University College Dublin" whilst others will refer to it as "National University of Ireland, Dublin". Theirfore the official title is the best name for the article as a "compromise" on either.

Djegan 19:24, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

some people will refer to the institution as 'UCD' whilst others will refer to it as NUID".

I don't believe that anybody really refers to it as "NUID". You say yourself that it is an almost unheard of abbreviation. I'm not up on the whole naming dispute but you seem to suggest that the argument is "UCD" versus the full title ("UCD-NUI") rather than versus just "NUI" alone. If this is true calling the article "UCD-NUI" is not compromise so much as taking the NUI position.

Perhaps you'll disagree but, apart from the question of the name people actually use, i feel the major problem is that the current article title is unwieldy, doesnt look right and is out of sync with the kind of article titles used elsewhere.

Ultimately the title should reflect that the constituent university has long evolved beyond the point were it is a kind of 19th century university college

This is reasonable but, as i say, i think that (if the article name is changed to "UCD") the wording in the opening sentence makes it clear straight away that the title of the article is an abbreviation.

Iota 01:52, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I believe that the official name should remain. Taking side with UCD or NUI is not the point here, using a clear, reflective title of the institution and its status is. The naming dispute can be expanded upon in the article as a footnote as you suggested and as explained above but remaining in an article by the official title. The article title should, I believe, use the official title not merely because it is the official title but also to draw attention to the changed status to the institution and to avoid one unofficial title. In addition since the National University of Ireland and List of universities in Ireland articles use the official title, for simplicity and avoiding using both alternate unofficial titles, then this would seem to be an additional reason. It goes without saying that the official title is clearer to all than using one of the unofficial titles only. Djegan 10:00, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It does not go without saying, or even with saying. The current article name is preposterous. Why not move Trinity to College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth near Dublin? Why is this naming dispute important enough to rename the article and yet only discussed on a Talk page, and the Talk page of a redirect at that? jnestorius^(talk) 20:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UCD gets a new name

UCD has been renamed to.... UCD Dublin. Great isn't it? There's a new crest aswell. Anyway a lot of editing of this article will need to be done. ____Ebelular 20:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Yuck, the marketing office has taken over the university - lets not make any hasty decisions! Djegan 20:31, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Reading the universities website it does not appear that they are changing the name but rather just the branding of the crest - change of name would require NUI approval and Ministerial order. Rebranding is becoming increasingly common as education internationalises - in particular the trend of two distinct themes - internal (letterheads, parchments - for graduates) and external (prospectuses, advertising - for students) which is alluded to on the website. I am quite surprised that they rebranded at this time especially when NUI dissolution looks increasingly expected although maybe some time away - the rebranding maybe a transitional attempt at dropping "college" from its name, at least in a public sense. Djegan 21:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I always put my UCD address as 'COBÁC, BÁC 4" and it gets to me :-). COBÁC rolls off the tongue much more mellifluously than UCD. It is very refreshing to see UCD implementing the Official Languages Act in full as I write. You can see the difference around the place, most particularly on the signs where both languages are for the first time of equal size, and on all the UCD notepaper which is finally bilingual.

The armorial bearings of your college are shown twice. There is no need for this: both are equally valid representations of the blazon. What was used in practise is irrelevant.

You are fundementally right that the blazon (as a definition of words) is the only valid discription of a coat of arms. But what is presented here is the original 1911 version which is currently in use for degree parchments and the 1940s version which many older people will be familar with and only recently went out of use - they can be presented not least for comparison and contrast, if not nostagia. Its not harmful showing both as they are quite distinct, and equally valid. Djegan 01:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

You're not serious about the degree parchments? Since UCD don't actually award degrees -- the NUI does -- surely UCD students get degrees with the NUI arms, which is something like vert, a harp or ensigned with a star of the second.

Their press release and presentations indicated so at the time. Djegan 20:19, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

So you don't actually know if that particular representation is used on degrees? Tut tut.

Both the NUI arms and the 1911 UCD arms are used on degree parchments. Nicki_ie 17:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arms and the Man

They moved swiftly to replace all instances of the Arms with their new logo, but the new logo is just a logo. The "crest" -- the Arms of UCD -- remains unchanged, "Ad Astra" and all. Ben-w 09:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coca-Cola Ban

Why was the information on the Students' Union and the Coca-Cola ban taken down? Just because it was "beyond" someone does not mean it is not a significant part of the recent history of the college. I do not remember such sustained press interest in UCD, for example, in recent years. I was intending to write much more on student life and history, college media and other issues but it is clear that it will be deleted without recourse to more astute Wikipedians! What's the point in either reinstating the SU information or putting any more up if it is just deleted?!

I agree that the coke ban info should be kept. If someone wants to delete it, they should justify it here. RMoloney (talk) 23:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the Coke ban information should be kept if only because 1) We had to vote 'twice' on it- how very Bertiesque! 2) That silly cigar-smoking individual who shall remain nameless but who clearly didn't get the points for Trinners/Oxon/Cantab. Although it is a bit of a joke in the sense that it is not banned in Centra on UCD, when UCD clearly gives the contract to run that shop. Has anybody mentioned that Nestle ban in UCD? That was all the rage back in the early 1990s.

Have edited the article as such in putting a small summary of the boycott on it.

I believe that we should keep to writing about this episode to a minimum as because it is an abstract topic at best and also I think we can write more interesting details on one of the most prominant universities of Ireland. Two lines would suffice. Djegan 20:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a clear non-NPOV agenda at play in the editing of the Coca-Cola ban. I am reverting to an earlier and much fairer description. The turnout in each referendum was higher than in the majority of other votes in UCD over the last 15 years. Cois na Camac 03:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish name

The university uses the Irish name "An Coláiste hOllscoile, Baile Átha Cliath" whilst this article uses "Coláiste na hOllscoile, Baile Átha Cliath". I think as the common name is "University College Dublin" it should be "Coláiste na hOllscoile Baile Átha Cliath", i.e. no comma? Djegan 21:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I assume that the version the university uses is a mistake (it would not be the first time an Irish institution did use a mistaken translation of its name). Moreover "Coláiste na hOllscoile Baile Átha Cliath" seams a better translation of "University College Dublin" as neither have commas. Djegan 22:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The Irish version of the name that is actually in use is "An Coláiste Ollscoille, Baile Átha Cliath" (cf [1]). I have updated the infobox to reflect this. --Kwekubo 00:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not at all convinced of that translation; it flies in the face of UCCs corresponding Irish translation. But as it has some level of official sanction its better than nothing. Djegan 19:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UCD Budget

Does anybody know how much UCD has in its budget these days? That, surely, is one of the most revealing signs of a modern university. And has it increased or decreased? The Irish Times reported a few months ago that Chuck Feeney gave DCU something like $100 million. Who, if anybody in the private sector, is giving UCD money? Also is it true that O'Reilly and Lochlann Quinn only gave a small (tiny?) percentage of the cost of the buildings named after their egos? El Gringo 02:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

DCU apparently gets the largest percentage of private funding as a percentage of total income of any Irish university (i am a graduate of the university). In any case accounts will be published publically, try on the university websites, or even the www.hea.ie website. Djegan 19:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I know that Lochlann Quinn gave approx IRL£4 million (that was in about 2000) for the new business school, and also he actually didnt want it named after him, he specifically stated that he wanted his name no where. Although the powers that be wanted to name it after him as is was a catchy name, and they couldnt think of anything else. Redcar987

[edit] Recent edits

Hi all, I wanted to revise and update the History section of the article as follows:

The university can trace its history to 1854 as the Catholic University of Ireland, the modern university received its charter in 1908.

The Catholic University of Ireland In the years following the Catholic Emancipation in Ireland a movement led by Paul Cullen attempted to make higher-level education accessible to Irish Catholics for the first time (at this time the Anglican Trinity College still imposed religious test that effectively banned Catholics from attending). As a result of these efforts a new Catholic University of Ireland was opened in 1854 and John Henry Newman was appointed as its first rector. Initially only seventeen students enrolled the first of these being the grandson of Daniel O’Connell.

For political reasons The Catholic University was never given a royal charter by the British authorities, and so was unable to award recognized degrees and suffered from chronic financial difficulties. Newman left the university in 1857 and it subsequently went into a serious decline. This trend was reversed 1880 with the establishment of the Royal University of Ireland. The Royal Universities charter entitled all Irish students to sit the Universities examinations and receive its degrees. Although in many respects the Catholic University can be viewed as a failure, the future University College inherited substantial assets from it including a successful medical school and two beautiful buildings, Newman House on St Stephen's Green and the adjoining University Church.

Foundation of University College Dublin In order to avail of the benefits of the Royal University the Catholic University was renamed University College Dublin. The college rapidly attracted many of the best students and academics in Ireland including Gerard Manley Hopkins and James Joyce and quickly began to out perform the other three colleges in the Royal University system. In the fifteen years before the establishment of the National University the number of first class distinctions in Arts awarded by the Royal University to University College was 702 compared with a total of 486 awarded to the combined Queen's Colleges of Belfast, Galway and Cork. Many of the college’s staff and students during this period would later contribute substantially to the formation and development of the future Irish state, the most famous being Francis Skeffington, Pádraig Pearse, Hugh Kennedy, Eamon de Valera, Eoin MacNeill, Kevin O’Higgins, Tom Kettle, James Ryan, Douglas Hyde and J A Costello.

In 1908, the Royal University was dissolved and a new National University of Ireland replaced it. This new University came into existence with three constitutent University Colleges - Dublin, Galway and Cork. By this time the college campus consisted of a number of locations in and around St Stephens Green in Dublins city centre, the main sites being Earlsfort Terrace, Cecilia Street, College of Science Merrion Street, and Newman House on St Stephen's Green.

UCD and the formation of the Irish Free State By the beginning of the twentieth century UCD had become a nationalist bastion. In 1913 in response to the formation of the Ulster Volunteer Force (viewed as a threat to the Home Rule movement) Eoin MacNeil professor of early Irish history called for the formation of an Irish nationalist force to counter act it. The Irish Volunteers were formed later that year and MacNeil was elected its Chief-of-staff. At the outbreak of the First World War in view of the Home Rule Act 1914 the majority of the volunteers including many UCD staff and students opted to support the British war effort. Many of those who opposed this move later participated in the Easter Rising, in this way UCD was a reflection of the Irish nationalist community generally with a number of staff and students participating in the rising while others fought (and died in the case of professor of national economics Tom Kettle) for the British army in France. Those participating in the rising include Patrick Pearse, Thomas MacDonagh, Michael Hayes, Liam O Briain, James Ryan and Louise Gavan Duffy.

Many UCD staff, students and alumni fought in the Irish War of Independence that followed the rising. Following the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty four UCD graduates joined the government of the new Irish Free State. The universities graduates have since had a large impact on Irish political life, four of the eight Presidents of Ireland and six of the ten Irish Taoiseach have been either former staff or graduates.

Move to Belfield By the early 1940’s the College had become the largest third level institution in the state. In an effort to cope with the increased numbers unsuccessful attempts were made to expand the existing city centre campus. It was finally decided that the best solution would be to move the College to a much larger green fields site outside of the city centre and create a modern campus university. This move commenced in the early 1960’s when the faculty of science moved to the new 350 acre (1.4 km²) park campus at Belfield in a suburb on the south side of Dublin. The Belfield campus has since developed into an attractively landscaped complex of modern architectural buildings and inherited Georgian townhouses, accommodating most of the colleges of the University as well as its student residences and numerous leisure and sporting facilities. One of UCDs previous locations, the Royal College of Science in Merrion Street is now the location of the renovated Irish Government Buildings, where the office of the Taoiseach (prime minister) is located. University College, Dublin also had a site in Glasnevin for much of the last century, the Albert Agricultural College, which is now part of Dublin City University.

Under the Universities Act, 1997, University College Dublin was established as a constituent university within the National University of Ireland framework.

Some of this is the same as before while some is completely new. Any comments and suggestions would be great. Changes could be discussed here and when agreed with by all, it could be put into the main article. Most of the information came from the ucd web page and some from other sources though it has all been rewitten. Cheers

I have reverted the article several times recently. Some because of vandalism, others because the material was copyrighted, see wikipedia:copyrights, not because the standard or nature of the material. Editors, including those without user accounts, are entitled to sumit material to wikipedia as they see fit, but their attention is drawn to the following below the edit box:

Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL.

Djegan 18:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Surely as well as the required sections on clubs/socs, there should be a sports section? UCD is probably the most accomplished uni in the country in terms of sporting achievement...

See be bold, so if its worth writting about go for it, their is also an article University College Dublin A.F.C. so might be worth a summary (three, four lines) of this with a link to the main article. Djegan 17:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Might be an idea to do a 'summary' of UCD Taekwon-do as well. Although they are not a mainstream sport, they are easily one of the most successful clubs in the college. (Last year alone they won trophies in: Leinsters, Munsters, Intervarsities, IUTF National Championships and contributed fighters to the irish Team for the European and World Championships) Luain 20:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Media

I have edited the Tribune and Observer sections, hopefully they don't need much work. I think putting in a lot more text will make it disproportionate to the rest of the piece, so any further edits should take place in new pages specific to each paperCois na Camac 14:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eamon de Valera

I see Eamon de Valera's name is metioned in the article as having a connection with UCD, but on a cursory look I can't turn up any hard information on what the nature of that connection was. His undergraduate degree seems to have been obtained by examination from the Royal University after a period of study at Blackrock - was he on the UCD staff or did he do a postgraduate course? There's nothing on UCD mentoned in Eamon de Valera. Gustavus 13:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a good point. Most of the online biographies state that he received his degree from the Royal University in Dublin and that he lectured in a number of colleges in Dublin. At this time UCD students were awarded their degrees by the Royal University of Ireland (along with the students of the Queens colleges in Cork, Galway and Belfast). Exactly what is meant by the "Royal University in Dublin" is unclear. It could imply that he was a student in UCD but recieved his degree from the RUI, but is clearly rather ambiguous. As to whether he lectured in UCD is not meantioned at all bar references to him lecturing in colleges in the Dublin area.

[edit] union or university

Regarding the passage:

"In April 2006 the college announced an ambitious building and campus redevelopment plan that it hopes will be completed by 2012. The new developments include the redevelopment and expansion of the Newman building, the James Joyce library, the science complex (which will be transformed at a cost of €300 million) and the student centre (including a new swimming pool, debating chamber and theatre)."

- I'm pretty sure that the (possible) development of the student centre is to be planned and financed by the student's union, not the college. I haven't changed it as i'm not certain, maybe someone who knows more than me about it could change it.

Add {{fact}} after that text if you think its warranted. Djegan 00:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It's financed by funds taken FOR the Student Union, BY the college, out of the "registration fee", which will be gradually increaced to pay for it.