Talk:Unit 731

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[edit] Old talk

Hello, The US Department of Defense has released declassified documents about Unit 731. If someone could find these and possibly link to them it would be a good primary source for more information. Astudent 08:22 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Is it really Ishii Shiro or should it be Shiro Ishii? According to Google searches, it is referenced more as Shiro Ishii.

Japanese order is lastname firstname, hence Ishii Shiro. -- Jpatokal 08:08, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Could someone please post why this article is disputed?

-- Unit 731 existed -- Unit 731 engaged in biological warfare research using human experimentation

I added a link on the main page urging people to use the talk section.

clarka 26 Mar 2004

I cannot comment on this article per se, but the history of the Unit 731 is disputed for many reasons, most of which are political. The Chinese had much to gain by focussing the attention of the newly unified nation on an external enemy, while the Japanese would rather forget about a nasty piece of history. One element of the debate that is not mentioned here is that most of the diseases tested by the Unit already existed in the Manchurian region where modern medicine was virtually unavailable until the Japanese moved in. Infected villages were not even effectively quarantined until Japanese rule took hold. That coupled with poor documentation and missing records make it very difficult to accurately estimate the death toll that could be attributed to the experiments.

Oscar_O 24 Oct 2005

BULLSHIT!!! One has to question Oscar's own political agendas... Political or not, the atrocities of the unit are well documented, hence any question towards their existence is illegitimate. Further, even if modern medical facilities were lacking in the Chinese North, could one possibly claim that the Japanese invaders, who brought troves of army doctors to poison and vivisect the population, improved the medical situation at all? Oscar's comments make it seem that the Japanese medical presence in the Northeast was meant to help the Chinese population...highly illogical considering the overall Japanese approaches in the occupied territories. True, a precise death toll cannot be calculated; however, there are enough documents and witnesses so that a death toll range could be calculated... further, using the claim that "one could not calculate the precise death toll" to suggest an exaggeration of the atrocities is highly absurd; one has to question the intent of such an individual who would make this claim. 134.82.90.100

A discuttion was moved to Image talk:Autopsy of a Japanese victim killed in the Jinan Incident.jpg

I am surprised not to see an estimate of the number of victims. And when was the existance of this unit known to the "West". Its existance is being claimed as a justification for the U.S. considering using chemical weapons in the proposed invasion of the Home Islands. Did the U.S. actually know of this at that time? Rmhermen 22:36, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

That's a good question. Japan's chemical weapon research was heavily influenced by Germany's efforts; I'm sure ther was mutual help passed along. Another thing to consider is, a lot of this information may very well still be classified by the US government. I'm sure American intelligence services during World War II were aware of this unit, especially towards the end. I mean, the research facilities, material, and personnel were some of the first things McArthur secured when he took over as head of the Occupational command.

Hey. I heard that the reason they called the prisoners maruta was because the cover for the building was that it was a large lumber mill, so the scientists referred to the patients as maruta(logs).

[edit] Inappropriate header

Node_ue - you're coming to this two days after the last edit, and your very first edit here is to put back the NPOV dispute? May I ask why? There was only one person who had a problem with this before, and we have said it is not enough to put the blanket message up top. Fuzheado | Talk 23:45, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. It's not fair that you serve as a referee because you are Chinese showing your bias. --Nanshu 02:06, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I got the following on my talk page:

Hi Jiang,

I just wanted to make sure you know that my reasons for reverting your edits to Unit 731 are not that I disagree with your views on the dispute and the article, but rather that it is unacceptable to remove NPOV and Disputed Article notices from pages unless 1. you put them there yourself in the first place or 2. the issue has been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.

Thanks. Node 01:35, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is expected to have NPOV dispute notices removed when one fails to provide adequate foundation for dispute on the talk page. Nowhere here or anywhere else do I see Nanshu commenting that the text in the article is not NPOV. This is unless, of course, he claims the text he is inserting himself is POV and in that case the problem is with him and he shouldnt be complaining. The dispute goes if there is no basis for it. I am the one complaining about the text inserted by Nanshu, not the other way around. I am expecting a response by Node to Fuzheado's comments above. --Jia ng 22:18, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] PAGE PROTECTED/ISSUES RELATING TO PHOTO

Folks, I've protected the page because of the continual debates over the dissection photo. I suggest both sides put forth their evidence as to the provenance and historical accuracy of this photo, including citations of books, experts and Internet links. This reversion has gone on for weeks now, so it's time to dialogue about this. Thanks. Fuzheado | Talk 01:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Disputed text was:

Image:Unidentified photo01.gif

Unidentified photo of unknown source

The Chinese claim that this photo is of Unit 731 or Unit 100, but actually this was an autopsy on a Japanese victim killed by the Chinese in 1928. Other than this, there are many photos shown under the caption of Unit 731 without adequate foundation.

Please discuss here below:

The claim that the photo is mislabelled is made by Nanshu exclusively, with only circumstantial evidence, as discussed at Image talk:Autopsy of a Japanese victim killed in the Jinan Incident.jpg. If Nanshu is correct on this matter, then this commentary is not only overgeneralized and written without reference (e.g. "there are many photos" is a vague statement; it doesn't mention who is disproving "the Chinese" - another overgeneralized statement), it is irrelevant. If it isn't Unit 731 then dont put it in the article. This is not an article on fake photos. --22:18, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Still making farfetched claim that my proof is "with only circumstantial evidence"? I think that's all finished.

As a substitute for proper sampling, google! Chinese site like [1] are showing photos of unknown origins. --Nanshu 02:06, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've bolded my statement above. If you don't understand, then please stick with the Japanese wikipedia. The site you provided is American, not Chinese. It's not up to you to be making the deductions. --Jia ng 03:14, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. That site may not be Chinese, but photos were taken from Chinese sources as the captions suggest.

I don't try to put photos that Chinese associate with other events. They linked it with Unit 731. Thus it is on topic. --Nanshu 02:59, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We're not lacking proof that the Chinese are using these photos, only proof that the photos are false. Again, if you can't explain sufficiently in the article how the position that these photos are false has any merit (and that the same claims you're making is made by so many other that it is a common phenomenon), then the text cannot belong. --Jia ng 21:19, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Again, don't kill the link to the on-topic photo. You don't provide sufficient reason to delete it.

Haven't I explained? The source of this propaganda seems 吉林省革命博物館.

This problem looks like we discuss Ptolemaic theory. It has already been settled, but was certainly claimed decades ago as I explained. --Nanshu 03:38, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The number of deaths

Thanks for putting another refernece on this matter. It seems to be much more credible than the first one. According to the references you linked in the article, the number of people killed by the Unit 731 lab experiments ranges from 3,000 to 10,000. I think this shows how controversial this matter is. Therefore I put the word controversial. Why you only quoted the larger number?

Remember, the deaths caused by Unit 731 weren't all in the Prison Camps. The site did state that many deaths were also caused by experimental weapons used in cities, villages and post-war incidents.--Secret Agent Man 21:41, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I knew that, but where does the number 10,000 come from? It is only mentioned on [2], but who wrote this? The author does not identified himself/herself. Can it be a credible source? Also the second source [3] references to the unidentified person's page, so it can't be a credible source either. If you could provide an academic source to the total death number, it would be appreciated. --Tkh 16:17, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

To whoever wrote the following in the Death Toll section:

An estimated 200000 civilians and POWs most of whom were Chinese died as a result of human experimentation. An additional 500000 Chinese soldiers and civilians died as a result of the biological attacks. However, this number does not include the many who died in seasonal outbreaks following the immediate attack or even the war. The true number of deaths may exceed one million.

Please cite sources to these numbers. More specific numbers are welcome. --Tkh 13:08, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

To whoever wrote the following:

According to journalist and researcher Daniel Barenblatt, in Japanese germ warfare experiments during this time "more than 250,000 people were infected, and the vast majority died."

Which page of the said book mentions this? I've been reading the book, but still haven't found this. Also this sentence is too vague and doesn't refer to the original source. --Tkh 16:02, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

I removed the above sentence from the Death Toll section since nobody had given the page number for the quote. --Tkh 11:13, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unit 731

Dear readers. To add an iteresting twist. I come from former Czechoslovakia. During my years there, I have accidentaly came accross a book 'Zvastni utvar 731' or Special Unit 731. This booklet was a translation of a diary of one Japanese soldier describing not only daily life but also the purpose of the unit and atrosities done there as well as the moments of liquidation of the unit at the end of the war. The descriptions were quite plain, no literary ambitions there. But the content was nerve wrecking. This soldier was working in POW section of the unit, no tests on Chinese were described. I attempted to locate the English version here in the States (I assumed that the translation came from English rather then from Japanese). But no trace of it. I will attempt to find it back in Czech. If I do, I will try my best to reverse translate it and post it. Milan Kucera.milan98198@yahoo.com

Just wanted to mention that I removed the Category: Genocide from this article. I had never heard of Unit 731 before, and if this is true, then the atrocities committed by the Japanese during the war were even more horrible than I previously thought. Nevertheless, I have never seen any source indicating that it was ever Japan's intention or goal to eliminate all Chinese from the face of the earth - that would have been attempted genocide, but this is not. A crime against humanity, yes, but genocide it is not.

I had heard that some american pow's were experimented on in unit 731 - should this be in the article?

Since American are included as Allied POWs, I think there is no need to edit the current article. --Tkh 05:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

This Site includes quotes from actual doctors, and has some death toll info http://www.aiipowmia.com/731/731mnu.html --Fenixjr

[edit] Death toll

User:CranialNerve deleted this sentence, requesting confirmation (quotation).

To this day the effects of the biological attacks are still active as strains of the diseases unleashed are still present in parts of Northeast China.

Please respond. mikka (t) 18:25, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New information?

Apparently there are new revelations from the US archives, see [4]. --Zero 02:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Right you are... I put it in there already. Bruce2 14:16:03, 2005-08-16 (UTC)

[edit] Supplementary information

I have seen a couple of documentaries about Unit 731. If I recall, they were either aired on the CBC or History Television channels in Canada. I'll try to track them down. Cybergoth 17:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Unit 731 Produced by BBC, 2002.

Reporter: Anita McNaught; Producer: Giselle Portenier

Unit 731 was the world's largest and most comprehensive biological warfare programme. :Inside :Unit 731 the Japanese conducted research and human experimentation on a scale unlike any in the history of humankind.

More than 10,000 Chinese, Korean and Russian POWs were slaughtered in these experimental facilities. They were used as human laboratory rats, to research, breed and refine biological weapons. They were treated as sub-human, and live vivisections were common. The products of the research were tested on Chinese civilians. It is estimated that biological weapons killed more than 300,000 between 1938-1945.

As the war came to an end, the Japanese surrendered and the US moved in to run the country's affairs, the officers and scientists responsible were never brought to trial. The US cut the Japanese officers a deal: Immunity from prosecution for war crimes in return for experimental data.

This documentary shows a group of 180 Chinese villagers including Wu Shi-Gen gave evidence against the Japanese government. Their demands are simple. They want the government first to admit to the extent of the biological warfare waged against the Chinese, and then to apologize and make a compensatory payment.

From:alpconference.ca Cybergoth 17:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Here is an article from the CBC by Sylvia Yu Cybergoth 17:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oral History

I know a man whose father briefly worked as an assitant in the 731 complex. Since this is secondary oral history, you must consider it hearsay evidence. The complex was supplied with illegal combatants slated for the firing squad. They were used for experiments under the agreement that they will be set free in the event that they survived. If they disagreed to the terms, they were sent to execution as planned. Some illegal combatants (who were not protected by the Geneva convention or the Hague treaty at the time) were actually freed after they survived. The experiment that this man assissted was vivisection. They surgically removed large sections of the intestines to see how short an intestine a man could survive on. Such data were deemed important in era when battlefield surgery was considerablly more crude than they are today.

One element of the debate that is not mentioned here is that most of the diseases tested by the Unit already existed in the Manchurian region where modern medicine was virtually unavailable until the Japanese moved in. Infected villages were not even effectively quarantined until Japanese rule took hold. That coupled with poor documentation and missing records make it very difficult to accurately estimate the death toll that could be attributed to the experiments.

Oscar 24 Oct 2005

I realize that you are not an apologist. Here are a couple of my thoughts regarding your source/info. That some of the prisoners were illegal combatants does not justify their treatment and use in inhumane experiments. Even if they agreed to them, it was obviously under duress. The purpose and usefulness of the data does not justify the experiments (the end does not justify the means). There is considerable debate about the ethics of using such data and I refer the reader to the use of data abtained by Nazi scientists experimenting on Holocaust victims, such as testing the human limits of hypothermia.

That some of the diseases tested were in the environment (anthrax is ubiquitous) also does not justify their use in human experimentation, particularly to develop a bioweapon with the the goal of genocide. The bioweapons were probably not developed for use against military targets, but to wipe out the native Chinese population. As for medical treatment in Manchuraia, I am not sure that the Japanese quarentined villages where natural outbreaks of disease occurred, and I really doubt that they provided any medical assistance.
Cybergoth 22:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Wait, you're saying the Japanese attempted to wipe out the Chinese population? You're going to have some serious sources to back up that claim. I understand the Japanes Imperial Army's war strategy was insane during that era, but at the time of Unit 731's operation, Japan was reeling on the ropes. Not saying it wasn't possible, but given the era and situation, I think the focus was definitely elsewhere that genocide. Gibson Cowboy 05:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Reeling on the ropes? The unit was first created in 1931 when defeat was almost 15 YEARS away. Eliminating the Chinese through biological warfare seems a perfectly reasonable goal to me.

[edit] Nick Fury and Ishii

Nick Fury tracked down Ishii just after the end of WWII in Nick Fury volume 3#38. A later story showed that Ishii created a new version of his virus and was killed, perhaps by the malcontent Crossfire. (The writer of the later story, Scott Lobdell, may not have known that Ishii was real.)

I love comics as much as anyone, but I don't think it's really relevant to the article on the real Unit 731. Besides, in the modern Marvel continuity, would Nick Fury have even been alive in WWII? :) (If you want to add this information somewhere outside of a comics article, it could be in a trivia section for Ishii himself.) RobertM525 02:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Barone Ottavio

It's written that a member of this group is Barone Ottavio. Barone Ottavio is an Italian name. I give a look around on internet but I didn't find anything about him (except copies of this article). I think that this is a fake name. I think that in a so secret unit was impossible for a foreigner to take part. Correct me if I made a mistake or please correct the article (removing that name) Thank you,

Riccardo Mattiuzzo

[edit] IMTF handling of Unit 731

I find the motivation of the various countries at the IMTF for keeping silent on the 731 issue facinating. It seems that for each of them, self interest prevailed over justice, or perhaps that's just called being realistic. I've read that there's some dispute over William Webb's response to David Sutton's reference. Anyone know more about this? - Ziomek

[edit] Other references

A Plague upon Humanity, by Daniel Barenblatt, but I do not have the ISBN #. Chris 23:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Murray Sanders

Does anyone known anything about a Colonel Murray Sanders, who apparantly was the first U.S. interviewer of Lt. Colonel Naito? There was also a Colonel Murray Sanders who had some connection to Anthrax experiments at Camp Detrick during WWII, and a Dr. Murray Sanders who was engaged in polio research at Columbia before the war and at the University of Miami after the war. I was wondering it its all the same person. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 23:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name format

As an earlier poster pointed out, his name is Shiro Ishii, not Ishii Shiro. Post-Meiji-Restoration names get listed as "first-name last-name" on Wikipedia, as you can see here: [5]

I have taken the liberty of changing all the names to meet the accepted standard. Bueller 007 04:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent News Story

I found this by accident; perhaps someone will want to incorporate some information from it into the article' http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/features/news/20060917p2g00m0fe001000c.html Hi There 05:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Check this article in the Japan Time as well: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?appURL=nn20061127a1.html

You will need to sign up if you have not. This man recently confessed to actions occurring in the Phillippines, not China.(Gokarosama 14:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Citations needed?

Is there a reason this article is littered with so many "citation needed" tags? It's really distracting. Especially on the list and main photo caption. Put one at the beginning of the list if you don't believe it, but don't tag every single item on the list. One source could, after all, be easily cited for the whole thing. (I'm working on that, BTW.) RobertM525 02:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The tags are asking for citations for specific statements in the article. Placing the tags has nothing to do whether the placer believes the statements. Please note that Wikipedia policy requires that all content in articles be verifiable from published reliable sources. Please also note that statements in an article for which verifiable sources are not cited may be removed by any editor. If you don't like seeing all those tags, help by tracking down reliable sources and citing them in the article. -- Donald Albury 20:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the principle behind it. But the way this article has been so heavily tagged with demands for citations, you'd think this whole topic was a conspiracy theory. In practice, I find demands for citation are called for on Wikipedia only when an editor doesn't believe the claim being made. And it seems clear to me that whoever tagged this article wasn't doing it because they thought the article needed to specify which of its sources was used on a given statement, but rather because they wanted to make the article seem less credible. Since references are provided at the bottom of the article (unlike all too many on Wikipedia), a global "references needed" tag would've sufficed if it was basically a copy-editing concern. I could be wrong, but the vibe the article's giving off at the moment suggests that someone wanted to make this article look like a bunch of BS. RobertM525 22:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

May I remind you of Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Please do not attribute nefarious motives to other editors. -- Donald Albury 03:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I've read the Factories of Death book and I find most of the claims can be referenced to that single book, and from that book you can derive primary or secondary sources from the reference section. I too have a feeling that the numerous tags were done simply to discredit the article. BlueShirts 21:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I will also remind you of Wikipedia:Assume good faith. You have no way of knowing what the motive was for placing the requests. As I believe I have placed some of the tags myself, I can tell veru defintely that I am not trying to discredit this article. I am trying to make all of Wikipedia more creditable by having assertions in it be sourced from reliable sources. It is the lack of cited reliable sources which discredits an article. If you have found sources for the facts in the article, please add the citations, including page numbers from books and longer articles. -- Donald Albury 02:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's conducive to remove entire sections. There is a unsourced tag in place already. Information in the removed section is rather specific and I'd imagine it's not too hard to find sources to back up the statements. Removing the entire section means that editors will have trouble to even begin relevant material because "template" from which they can find citations is eliminated. BlueShirts 21:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I moved the entire section back here so that it would be easy to refer to. The 'unsourced' template had been in place for 2½ months. That was plenty of time for interested editors to supply citations. If you want the section back in the article, find reliable sources to cite. Article 3 of the verifiability policy says, The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. I invite you to read the Burden of evidence section of the policy. -- Donald Albury 02:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed section

Politicization of history

This article or section does not adequately cite its references or sources.
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. (help, get involved!)
Any unsourced material that has been or is likely to be challenged may be removed at any time.
This article has been tagged since December 2006.

Unit 731 activities are denied by nationalist Japanese historians, who say they are fabrications by Chinese propaganda. Left-wing organizations have published histories of Unit 731 that detail the cover-up by the U.S. government (in exchange for the data). As with many WWII topics (and the subsequent political debate) references to Unit 731 are omitted from many Japanese history textbooks. Some see this as evidence that in modern Japan, revisionist history is part of the mainstream, which contributes to the perception that Japan has yet to accept full responsibility for the crimes of its past.

In late 1982, the Government of the People's Republic of China opened the Unit 731 War Crime Exhibition Museum in Harbin.

In 1997, 180 Chinese people, either victims or the families of victims of Unit 731, sued the Japanese government for disclosure, apology and compensation.

In 2000, the United States Congress passed the Japanese Imperial Government Disclosure Act to declassify most classified U.S. Government records about war criminals and crimes committed by the Japanese during World War II. As of 2003, this will be done through the Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group (IWG).

In August 2002, the Tokyo District Court acknowledged the existence of Unit 731 and its biological warfare activities but ruled that all compensation issues were settled by the Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China of September 29, 1972. However that document only mentions the renunciation of reparations claims by the Chinese Government not private individuals.

In 2005, Professor Keiichi Tsuneishi of Kanagawa University found declassified documents in the U.S. National Archives showing that the U.S. Government had purchased information regarding Unit 731's experiments.

The officers in charge of Unit 731 were persuaded to provide their results for money, gifts, entertainment and a waiver of war crimes charges. The motivation for the purchase was the enhancement of the U.S.'s biological warfare program, part of the arms race with the Soviet Union.

Some possible sources for this section include:

-- Donald Albury 11:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I have merged this page with 'Kempeitai Political Department and Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory' in accordance with wikipedia merge policy. I have not attempted to reconcile differences or introduce references. I see that as the job of the editors of this page. DrKiernan 14:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trouble shooters?

In the "Special Mobile Teams" section, the phrase "trouble shooters" is used. I think this should be one word "troubleshooters" -- when I first read this, it immediately reminded me of the troubleshooters in "Paranoia (role-playing game)", i.e. find trouble and shoot it. Is this what is meant, or does it mean troubleshooting in the traditional sense? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.211.178.123 (talk) 16:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Contradiction on cover-up

The first part of the article says that the official cover-up story was "water purification unit", but when discussing maruta (logs) further down, that it was a "lumber mill". It is probably not both. The article on Shiro Ishii states that they called them logs because they were considered inanimate and expendable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.233.40.12 (talk) 21:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Cleaner ref links?

It seems there are too many duplicate ref links pointing to the same article "Doctors of Depravity." And for a historical topic like this how reliable is a recent newspaper article (which includes no references to other sources, as far as I have read) as a source?

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