Talk:Uniforms of the Canadian Forces

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Contents 1 Eagle or albatross? 2 Choice of DEU? 3 Bearskin or busby? 4 Naval Whites for NCM's? 5 Prince Charles in unusual tan uniform configuration 5.1 FOREIGN HONOURS TO CANADIANS

[edit] Eagle or albatross?

It's an eagle, according to the CF; even the only Air Force site I could find that mentions the device on the CADPAT. SigPig 06:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Choice of DEU?

OK, as someone who has served in the US military (Air National Guard) and interacted a lot with our (very professional) CF counterparts to the north (you do wonders with 20+ year old CF-18's; some of our best jocks flying brand-new F-16's have got butt-kickings by your people in practice ACM), as well as being a long-time member of the Air Force Association of Canada, forgive my American ignorance on this topic...but does the joining service member who may not be joining a service-specific trade like aircrew, submariner, tank driver, etc, but may be going into a more generalist career field like medical (flight surgeons excepted), clerical etc get any choice in the matter about what "environment" and/or DEU they get? Or when they finish basic training, is it almost arbitrary, like "you get green", "you get blue-grey" or "you get navy blue". Also, is there any switching of uniforms in a CF servicemember's career? Another thing I don't get...in Airforce magazine (excellent read; I wish it were monthly rather than quarterly) it showed a picture of a Major identified as an "Air Reservist"...yet he had a green uniform.--MarshallStack 06:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

According to some clerks I know, they were given a choice after Basic, if they were in a purple trade. As for changing, it would happen officially:

1. if the member switched to a trade with a specific environment (lineman, boatswain, ACIS technician); or

2. for a purple tradesman, upon request (but ONLY in the rarest of circumstances, and with sufficient reason. This one happened to a clerk I knew; he was RCAF before integration, went CF green in '68, then when the DEU came out, got "armified" because he was in an Army unit. He requested a change to Air Force for heritage or morale or some such reason, and was granted after a number of years.

Unofficially, it is not unknown for COs of hard naval, air, or army units to pressure (or outright order) personnel to switch uniforms so they don't look "out of place" on parade.

As for the Air Reservist major...being an Air Reservist doesn't mean you are in a hard Air trade; you might be, say, a Logistics officer (purple). Being an Air Reservist only means you are in an Air Reserve unit. That happens a lot with establishment positions listed as "ATR" ("any trade"), as opposed to, say, "052" (Lineman - hard army). SigPig 08:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that clarifies things for me somewhat (thank you)...but I can see why a CO of a "hard" naval, air or army unit would order someone to switch uniforms so they don't look out of place on parade, in formation, etc (I'd think there'd be esprit de corps reasons too). On the CF bases I've visited I've seen all three uniforms on one base and when your personnel are on bases down here fortunately I know your ranks so I know who to salute so as not to get in trouble (however, our Warrant Officers are saluted and I don't think yours are, are they?). That reminds me of a picture I saw a few years ago of the US Navy's "Top Gun" instructors in parade formation; there was a lone USAF officer on exchange with them and he really stuck out in his Air Force blue among all them wearing naval whites. I also remember seeing the Snowbirds (best aerobatic team I've ever seen, including our own USAF Thunderbirds and USN Blue Angels) at an airshow in London, Ont. in the early '90s and one of the support personnel listed in the program was a Leading Seaman...I didn't see him but I would imagine from the title he was wearing a naval uniform despite being in an air unit. By the way, we have our "purple" people too, but most of them are in the Five Sided Loony Bin (the Pentagon) and they already belong to the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines or Coast Guard and hence wear their parent service's uniform. However, sometimes you'll see people from different services on exchange at lower level units wearing their service uniform - happens most often with our "sea services", the Navy, Marines and Coast Guard (example: Marine and Coast Guard units use Navy chaplains, legal and medical personnel).--MarshallStack 21:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bearskin or busby?

Are we sure the Royal 22e Régiment is wearing a bearskin hat? I think it is wearing a busby.--BarLaf 15:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The R22eR full dress is fusilier uniform because of its alliance with the Royal Welch Fusiliers. Fusiliers, according to the CF Dress Instructions, wear bearskin caps -- similar to foot guards, but with cap badges and plumes. The fusilier cap may be somewhat smaller than the guards' cap, but I don't know for sure. The photos I've seen of the Van Doos in full dress show that their caps don't have the side bags that busbies have. Indefatigable 17:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I was confused since the french "bonnet de poil" does not translate directly into "busby" or "bearskin". But now that I think of it, I'm ready to go with bearskin hat.

[edit] Naval Whites for NCM's?

Do NCM's in MARCOM get to wear the high-collared Naval summer white dress uniform, or is that reserved for officers only? If so, how do they wear their rank insignia given that the photos I've seen of MARCOM officers in that uniform have "hard" shoulder boards. In the RN, RAN and RNZN, as well as the USN/USCG version here in the States, I think that uniform is reserved for officers (and warrant officers in the USN and USCG, as they are considered officers). When I served in the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary I was eligible to wear it (with USCG AUX insignia, which is slightly different) but didn't...too expensive.--MarshallStack 04:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

No, Navy Whites can be worn by NCMs, they just generally don't because it's too expensive; it's an optional uniform, so it's not provided at public expense. When NCMs wear it, the rank is worn on the sleeves (the rank insignia is gold, bordered in black, on white backing). I do not believe they wear shoulder boards, altho' I could very well be mistaken on that point.

The thing to remember about CF uniforms is that the base uniforms for officers and NCMs are identical. Only accoutrements (rank insignia, cap badges sometimes, wearing of swords vs bayonets or wearing waistcoats vs cummerbunds) tend to differ. SigPig 16:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I can understand that. Our dress whites were very expensive (including tailoring) and one would almost have to be a active duty officer just to afford them. I can imagine it's much the same for Canadian NCM's. Plus, I live in the Midwest US and there just wouldn't be many opportunities for me to wear them, so that's another reason I never got them (now, if I would have got the opportunity for an exchange visit to a Canadian naval installation and had to have them for that, I would have gladly shelled out the money!). They do look sharp, though, both the Canadian and US versions.--MarshallStack 03:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prince Charles in unusual tan uniform configuration

I saw a photo of Prince Charles a few years ago in his role as Honorary Colonel of an "army" (Mobile Command) unit (not sure which one, but I think it was somewhere in western Canada). He was wearing the tan summer uniform (which I saw a Band Branch reservist wearing once in Windsor, Ont. in the early '90s) with the four rings of a Colonel. He was wearing "Canada" nationality titles (in green/gold) instead of the regimental titles, CF bullion-wire pilot wings, and his medals (which included British, Australian and New Zealand medals along with the Canadian Forces Decoration). I think he was wearing Infantry collar dogs, but I'm not sure. However, instead of having the Mobile Command metal pocket badge, he had an embroidered one a few inches below the nationality title on his left arm. Was this usual wear or special wear for him?--MarshallStack 04:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the old summer tan Service Dress. I had a set, back in the day. He could be wearing it for one of 3 reasons: 1. he didn't know the tans had been discontinued, and that the winter greens are worn year round; 2. he never got issued the winter greens; 3. he decided that wearing a double-weight winter uniform in a prairie summer was a stupid idea, and seeing as he was the Col-in-Chief, and heir apparent to boot, who was gonna tell him different? If the answer was 3, my respect for his common sense goes up a notch.

As for his accoutrements:

• Pilot wings: All qualified pilots (or jumpers, or divers, or whatever) who were awarded qualification wings (or dolphins) may wear the same, regardless of their uniform.
• Canada flashes: DND didn't spring for any new tan badges when the uniforms came out. No big problem, the green backing made the badges easier to see (but the sergeant and master corporal badges looked a bit dorky). As for lack of regimental titles, they're cheap, and whoever forgot to pony up the $5 Canadian for a pair of regimental brasses should be kicked in the nadz with a frozen mukluk.
• Medals: If you were legitimately awarded a medal as a member of a foreign armed force, you can wear it on your CF uniform if you get pemission thru (I think) the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff. Again, who's going to say "NO" to the Prince of Wales?
• Shoulder badge: Probably a formation sign, perhaps 1 CBG (the Reg F brigade out west). Lack of command badge? Possibly an oversight. SigPig 16:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Or possibly none were available. Force Mobile Command was replaced by Land Force Command, and a new badge was minted with a maple leaf and crossed swords. Possible they didn't have any on inventory at the time. I thought the green and gold rank badges looked fine on the tan uniforms. I still have mine, but never wore the tan pants, which were hideous - just the tan jacket. The shirts looked good too, with dark green work dress pants.Michael Dorosh 17:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

True enough on all counts. After all, he is Heir to the Throne and can pretty well wear whatever he wants. I once saw a picture of the huge room in England that houses all the uniforms he's entitled to wear in Britain and Commonwealth countries...two non-UK uniforms I remember are an RAAF Group Captain and a CF Green uniform with Royal Winnipeg Regiment shoulder flashes. In the photo I'm talking about, he was definitely wearing the Force Mobile Command (maple leaf in the middle of four arrows) crest on his arm. I've also seen him in an AIRCOM blue uniform with Colonel's sleeve striping. However, I've never seen him in MARCOM dark blue...a bit odd given that the majority of his service time was in the RN and when he wears a uniform it's usually an RN uniform. Considering the British/Aussie/NZ medals...I know the Commonwealth countries are fully independent of Britain and each other, but would medals from other Commonwealth countries be really regarded as "foreign" in Canada in the same way that, for example, a Canadian airman being awarded the US Air Medal would be?--MarshallStack 03:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The Cdn Gov't's thinking seems to be that if it ain't Canadian, it's foreign; i.e. if Ottawa didn't issue it, you must get permission to wear it on the uniform. Put it to you this way: Canada has had its own Victoria Cross struck (the medal says "Pro Valore" father than "For Valour"). SigPig 01:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a great example; the "real" VC had an English inscription on the medal - so it made sense to go to a version that would be appropriate for both official languages. As for foreign stuff, we do allow foreign jump wings, the US Presidential unit citation, foreign submariners badges, and foreign medals. The "foreign" medals are rightfully last in the order of precedence.Michael Dorosh 02:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

My point was not that they are not permitted, but that permission is indeed required for the wear of foreign medals or decorations. SigPig 05:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah seen, but I don't understand why you include the VC example, then. It's a Canadian medal. Anyway, as per the GG's website:[1]

[edit] FOREIGN HONOURS TO CANADIANS

Canadian policy requires Government approval before an order, decoration or medal can be awarded to one of its citizens. Otherwise, Canada will not recognize the honour, and it cannot be worn with national honours or on a Canadian Forces (CF) uniform;

The policy has been described to all missions accredited to Canada (Foreign Affairs Circular Note No. XDC-0675, 4 February 1988), and is reprinted in A-AD-200-000/AG-000, Chap 2, with further military instructions;

Although the policy requires approval before an award, requests after the fact which explain the presentation circumstances may be considered;

The Sovereign is the fount of all Canadian honours.Therefore, foreign honours must emanate from a similar level, a head of state or government, to be recognized.Awards originated by some other or lower authority are regarded as private honours.These can be accepted as private mementos only. Except for courtesy reasons at the moment of presentation, they cannot be worn with national honours or on a CF uniform;

Canada will only approve honours which recognize meritorious activity. Canada does not engage in exchanges of honours, nor give or receive honours based solely on an individual's status;

Canadian protocol differentiates between orders and decorations (which recognize individual meritorious activity), and campaign and service medals (which recognize honourable participation in some group activity);

Canada does not approve foreign orders and decorations for the normal performance of paid government duty.Thus, requests to award foreign honours to public employees, military or civilian, must explain why the activity to be recognized was outside the paid duties or beyond the norm expected of the individual's rank and experience.Each such request is assessed individually;

For campaign and service medals, a request is assessed on a group basis for all who qualify for the honour. If the request is approved, the decision will guide future requests for the medal;

Nothing in this policy applies to foreign honours properly presented to a country's own citizens.However, after immigration, a Canadian citizen can only wear foreign honours in accordance with Canadian protocol, ie, the honours must emanate from a head of state or government.Michael Dorosh 06:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, the VC was a bad example; I thought the Govt revamped it because they didn't like using a "British" medal and wanted a "Canadian" one instead. But the essence of what you said was what I was trying to say (and obviously not succeeding). A subsidiary point I made in an earlier post was that of the Prince of Wales was wearing a British medal for collecting toilet seats on a CF uniform that he wore as Hon Col, I doubt there'd be anyone in the CF who'd tell him to take it off. OTOH, any medals worn by him would probably have been given to him by HM the Queen anyway, so maybe that's a bad example too. Meh, I only ever got the Chocolate Dollar anyway, so it's not like I'll ever be fighting the Govt to wear my Blue Max next to my Nijmegan Vierdaagse on my DEU... SigPig 06:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)