Talk:Unidentified flying object

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Contents

[edit] recent sighting

this is a peace of $hit Should this be included?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/02/ufo.sighting.ap/index.html

regards,David

This should be included, I think. http://www.ufoseek.com/news/ I'm surpriced it is not already there.

Miro

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.107.164.100 (talk) 08:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Need for Skepticism

I have expanded the section on Explanations and Opinions to include broader skeptical views. I would also like to point out the possible misuse of the word 'inexplicable' in this article. It and 'unexplained' do not mean the same thing; concluding that something is inexplicable implies genuine and deserved bafflement. It is not clear whether the French government actually described about 14% of 5800 cases as "inexplicable" or whether they merely meant that there was simply a lack of data available to explain these incidents. Could this be clarified - and has there been similar possible misuse of these terms elsewhere? Rikstar 00:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Archive
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The French GEPAN/SEPRA studies dumped cases with "lack of data" or insufficient information into a separate category. About half of the total cases could definitely or probably be identified, whereas about 14% of all cases with sufficient data could not be explained with any possible conventional explanation, i.e., they were indeed "inexplicable". Thus the cases with insufficient information formed about a third of all case and were not included in either the identified or unidentified categories.
Regarding your addition of more skeptical viewpoint, all I see is what I would describe as a totally irrelevant paragraph expressing your personal opinion there are too many books about the paranormal and people try to make money from them. What does this have to do with unidentified flying objects? People also try to make money writing badly written and popular accounts on WWII, astronomy, etc. So what? That doesn't somehow negate the core of information about these various subjects.
Frankly, I think the paragraph is totally off topic and NPOV and should be deleted ASAP. Dr Fil 00:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Heres a paragraph on the study that makes the French statistics a little clearer. Note that cases lacking data are around 41% of the cases and are in a separate category. About 46% have definite or probable explanations, and 12.5%, according to this article, (I previously saw 13.5% or ~14%) are considered unidentified and "inexplicable." Source: [1]
"Yet the statistics that Velasco has made public are eloquent. Since, 1977, Sepra has received some 6,000 reports of alleged UFO sightings. Of these, 110 are from civil or military aircraft crew, and the rest from ordinary French people who have almost invariably contacted their local gendarmerie. In 21.3 per cent of cases there is a clear, indisputable and banal explanation: a firework display, a novel lighting system involving a luminous balloon, a cloud above the Pyrenees that is shaped like a flying saucer. In 24.9 per cent there is a probable explanation, and in 41.3 per cent the information is too vague to be of use. But in 12.5 per cent of cases "about 750 sightings since 1977" the evidence is precise, detailed and inexplicable, and is thus categorised as an unidentified phenomenon." Dr Fil 00:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dr Fil: The difference between WWII, astronomy, etc. and UFOs is... the former do or did really exist, whilst UFOs, as a paranormal entity, might not. The sociological, psychological and cultural implications of this are inevitably tied up with many things; like human needs and the nature and availability of information to meet those needs. Which is what some editors see as a legitimate point to make in offering alternatives to paranormal explanations. UFOs could be a cultural rather than a 'nuts-and-bolts' phenomenon, boosted and perpetuated by human vested interests. Psychoanalyst Carl Jung himself noted how the media seized on out-of-context quotes or misunderstood his theories about UFOs ("Jung believes in flying saucers!!"), but when he asked the media to publish corrections (which showed his real views were much more mundane), nobody was interested. This is a real example of cultural bias. IF UFOs 'do not exist', the existence of such a massive body of UFO works (especially the sensationalist stuff) becomes something of an enigma in itself, requiring an explanation of the socio-cultural variety. It is this that my contribution touched upon. I do wish I could have made this clearer without writing a thesis on the matter.
I am surprised any fair-minded editor would think such an observation "is totally off topic and NPOV and should be deleted ASAP" - I am disappointed by the rather impolite tone of your comments (please see Talk page guidelines). The same skeptical observations have appeared in other articles about controversial paranormal topics - without provoking such censure. Indeed, they have been welcomed for adding relevant and much needed depth to articles of this nature - however uncomfortable others may feel (I have seen the latest version of my edit and feel it is reasonable, in spite of editing).
I think the trick with all articles on controversial paranormal subjects is to reduce to a minimum how stupid a believer who writes such articles would look if it was shown that the mystery was just a load of bull. Likewise, skeptical contributors (in this case) need to minimise how dumb they would look if, say, a flying saucer landed on the White House lawn. Rikstar 09:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
If you read the article at present, I left in your cultural/social aspects comment, but deleted the comment about people supposedly making money off the topic, which is irrelevant and off-topic. The same could be said for all the debunking books written about UFOs. People writing books and making money on one side or the other has nothing to do with the validity of the various arguments or phenomenon.
Incidentally, the so-called "Psychosocial Hypothesis" is already listed in the article under "Popular ideas for explaining UFOS", and there is a link to a separate Wiki article on the subject (Psychosocial_Hypothesis), so it hasn't exactly been ignored.
BTW, I don't know where you got the idea that Jung thought UFOs had a strictly cultural/psychological explanation. There are many direct quotes and writings by Jung where he did indeed think that SOME UFOs might very well be nuts-and-bolts craft, and cited such things as corroborating photographs and simultaneous radar contact. He was also impressed by the quality of many of the witnesses. Dr Fil 22:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't recall writing that Jung thought UFOs had a strictly cultural/psychological explanation. I was making the point that the press obviously went for simplistic, headline-grabbing interpretations - which just might have something to do with selling more newspapers which = making money!! I totally agree that: "People writing books and making money on one side or the other has nothing to do with the validity of the various arguments or phenomenon", but I am not talking about intellectual validity, I am talking about powerful factors that might add bias and create and perpetuate mystery where none exists. The main article itself includes the following reference:

"UFOs constitute a widespread international cultural phenomenon of the last half-century. Folklorist Thomas E. Bullard writes, “UFOs have invaded modern consciousness in overwhelming force, and endless streams of books, magazine articles, tabloid covers, movies, TV shows, cartoons, advertisements, greeting cards, toys, T-shirts, even alien-head salt and pepper shakers, attest to the popularity of this phenomenon.”"

If you agree with the inclusion of this quote, there's little to "suppose" about people making money off the topic. And I don't suppose any skeptical viewpoints make up a more than a tiny fraction of such sales (If you want know how hard it is in reality to get well-researched skeptical material published in a market swamped with pro-paranormal stuff I can oblige). And there's a "Psychosocial Hypothesis" link, too? Good. Rikstar 01:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Rikstar, I think you are confusing UFOs as entertainment vs. UFOs as a serious subject of study. Yes, there is much cultural material in movies, ads, etc. treating the subject as entertainment. But that is very different from the media treating it soberly and factually as something possibly real. Rather, the media bias is definitely towards either ignoring it altogether or ridiculing the topic. Incidentally, in the U.S., skeptics have their own publishing house called Prometheus Press that publishes anti-UFO books, controlled by the same people who put out the Skeptical Inquirer Magazine. There is no comparable "pro-UFO" publishing house.Dr Fil 18:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
WRT Rikstar's comment of "how dumb they (skeptics) would look if, say, a flying saucer landed on the White House lawn", I'd like to remind that in 1952 they came quite close to doing exactly that...
Quote I was fascinated by your account of the 1952 UFO flap around DC. I'm 68 now, but at age 13, I was there, living with my family - temporarily - in the sedate, colonial Alexandria home of my mother's sister and her husband. (My father was an Army officer. En route to Bogota, Colombia, Dad was going through Pentagon briefing.) What I recall as most striking about this flap was the ubiquitous excitement on local television, newspapers, and so forth. You didn't mention this in your piece, but individual sightings seemed to be all but continuous. Cars were piled up along the shoulders of the Mt. Vernon Parkway. Crowds gazing out across the Potomac toward DC and National Airport came and went. I remember my grown cousin - Jim (a broker in the family real estate business) - arriving at the house one day all but breathless with excitement over a sighting. As a sociologist I've long been fascinated by how civil authorities are able to virtually erase the direct experience (in this case) of literally hundreds of witnesses. Years would pass before my own inquiries would lead me to understand that UFOs represent a vital dimension of the human picture - hidden though it is behind smoke, mirrors, disinformation and sheer ignorance. Source —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dhatz (talk • contribs) 21:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Mainstream science and Prozac explanations

This article still has "Flat Earth Society" comments such as "the general opinion of the mainstream scientific community is that all UFO sightings could ultimately be explained by prosaic explanations" which is clearly untrue (if you bother to read BlueBook Special Report 14 where Battelle Memorial Institute investigated 3201 cases you'll see why).

Also, if you read the content rather than just the title of many so-called "prosaic explanations", you'll understand why many humorously refer to them as Prozac-induced explanations.

On the issue of Science and UFOs, quotes by Dr. Peter A. Sturrock (Professor of Space Science and Astrophysics and Deputy Director of the Center for Space Sciences and Astrophysics at Stanford University; Director of the Skylab Workshop on Solar Flares in 1977 etc):

"The definitive resolution of the UFO enigma will not come about unless and until the problem is subjected to open and extensive scientific study by the normal procedures of established science. This requires a change in attitude primarily on the part of scientists and administrators in universities." (Sturrock, Peter A., Report on a Survey of the American Astronomical Society concerning the UFO Phenomenon, Stanford University Report SUIPR 68IR, 1977.)
"Although... the scientific community has tended to minimize the significance of the UFO phenomenon, certain individual scientists have argued that the phenomenon is both real and significant. Such views have been presented in the Hearings of the House Committee on Science and Astronautics [and elsewhere]. It is also notable that one major national scientific society, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, set up a subcommittee in 1967 to gain a fresh and objective perspective on the UFO phenomenon.
In their public statements (but not necessarily in their private statements), scientists express a generally negative attitude towards the UFO problem, and it is interesting to try to understand this attitude. Most scientists have never had the occasion to confront evidence concerning the UFO phenomenon. To a scientist, the main source of hard information (other than his own experiments' observations) is provided by the scientific journals. With rare exceptions, scientific journals do not publish reports of UFO observations. The decision not to publish is made by the editor acting on the advice of reviewers. This process is self-reinforcing: the apparent lack of data confirms the view that there is nothing to the UFO phenomenon, and this view works against the presentation of relevant data." (Sturrock, Peter A., "An Analysis of the Condon Report on the Colorado UFO Project," Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 1, No. 1, 1987.)"

Recently Dr. Sturrock reported that the journal SCIENCE has agreed to publish "well penned" papers on UFOs.

To be frank, it's simply been a "your soul or your job" situation.

Dhatz 19:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length of the article

This article is getting very long eh? Maybe someone should divide it up into different articles

[edit] Ongoing scientific research and opinion polls

We should mention ongoing scientific research such as Project Hessdalen in Norway, an monitoring of UFOs (UAP) by teams from Norway and Italy, using CCD cameras, magnetometers etc

There should also be a correction to the section on public opinion, because all polls I've seen sofar (CNN/Time 1997, BBC etc) in the 1990s and this decade show that over 50% think UFOs are ET craft (and percentages go up with level of education). This is quite a bit more than the 24% claimed by "Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion - American Piety in the 21st Century" cited now. Some ideas can be had from http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/publicopinionpolls.htm (I'll add if I find time)

Feel free to take ideas from my page at http://www.hyper.net/ufo.html

Dhatz 02:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Astronomers and UFOs

The part of the article on astronomers, starts quoting Plait that "amateur astronomer's don't report UFO sightings to HIM", this is an old issue, answered even in McDonald's testimony in 1968, but here are a few more relevant items:

1/ comments on astronomers and UFOs and Plait's comments that others don't report UFOs to him

2/ Haisch, a professional astronomer (who has actually studied the UFO subject, unlike Plait who merely states that "most UFOs are probably due to mundane causes" which is pretty obvious) gives a perspective on astronomers and requests help from aviation professionals http://www.ufoskeptic.org/aviation.html Dhatz 22:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vimanas - ancient flying machines

http://www.dark-truth.org/okt222006-4-vimanas.html Vimanas - Ancient Indian flying machine

Suggest adding the above article in the external links section of UFO topic, as its an important piece of UFO history in ancient times, and very well documented.

-DB —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.19.188.150 (talk) 02:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] UFO Pix and NEW case

Links are: UFO cases incl. Pix of O' Hare UFO, Ark UFOs viewed AS "The Devil", Ark UFO Case: Ark UFOs seen AS "Of The Devil". The former link has a pix of the UFO seen over the O' Hare Airport in Chicago. The latter links refer to a possibly still ongoing UFO incident in Arkansas. The explanation there by locals is that they believe that "The Devil" is in the area, while a primary witness, who is a former USAF noncom says that the incident was that either a military exercise was going on OR that a hoax is being perpetrated by pilots in aircraft. Can this be placed in the "

Main article: List of major UFO sightings
" article ? I'm still investigating the latter case. Martial Law 21:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Propulsion?

Should the article have something about UFO propulsion? It could be used because there is some speculaion over what technology they would use to power the UFO. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The chamark (talk • contribs) 18:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Schulgen memo

A quite significant declassified document I couldn't find in here, is the Schulgen memo 1947 (http://www.project1947.com/fig/schulgen.htm), which proves that USAF was on the look for "flying saucer type aircraft" since 1947.

Note there is an inaccurate modified version in circulation (read more in http://www.roswellfiles.com/Articles/Schulgen.htm), which was changed to suggest that USAF already knew they were dealing with interplanetary craft (to "prove" the Roswell crash).

Dhatz 23:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obviously a Cigar cigarette...

This image featured in the page [[2]] seems to clearly be a cigar type cigarette placed over a photo plate of a picture of some sort of foam background, possibly tissue paper or more likely a painting. Close examination of the 'UFO' shows the front part to be fractured in a way exactly similar to a wet cigar. Examination of the background of the image shows the "clouds" to look nothing like natural clouds and more like tissue paper or a painting. Examination of the cigar itself shows that the cigar is on a different photo level from the background. The background is flat and the cigar has more dimension to it suggesting it was placed on top of a painting. Easily hoaxed with 1870 photo technology. Wikidudeman (talk) 05:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

At least the caption says "purported"... Using an actual cigar to represent the "cigar-shaped" UFO type really is taking the biscuit though. Can we have a vaguely believable picture please? Totnesmartin 14:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
To tell you the truth, I laughed when I saw that picture. I find it hard to believe anyone could be gullible enough to believe that's actually a "UFO" let alone an alien space craft. The 1st picture is obviously fake as well. Looks to be a tin homemade saucer floating up in the air with a fishing pole and string. If you look close enough you can vaguely make out fishing string.Wikidudeman (talk) 02:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
of course if we insisted on genuine photos then our options would become slightly limited... Totnesmartin 13:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, although the article has improved immensely since 3Q2006, it's still very weak wrt photographic evidence and physical trace cases. It should at the very least have Trent and Heflin's, Costa Rica 1971 and Kelsey Bay photos. And potentially Childerhose and Trindade too. One can look at my own page at http://www.hyper.net/ufo.html for links to UFO photo galleries, e.g. the article from Popular Mechanics The 6 UFO Sightings THEY Can't Explain. The problem is that there are WP editors, who insist on editing the UFO subject, although they haven't the vaguest idea... Dhatz 23:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, I understand that many UFO photos might not look like one "expects" a "real alien spacecraft" (i.e. like the ones of Klingon from StarTrek or Shadows from Babylon5), but many UFOs are indeed discoid and spherical and often self-luminous. Btw initially it was quite hard for me to accept as well, until I spent several hundreds of hours researching the subject. Dhatz 23:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen a single photo of a supposed alien space craft that I couldn't provide an alternative explanation for. And going with Occams Razor, What's more likely? A super advanced alien civilization visiting earth from thousands of light years away and floating up in the sky? Or a hoax?Wikidudeman (talk) 00:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Those aren't the only two options. Totnesmartin 13:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
You're right in most cases. But when you go back further in time and the saucers look so overtly 1950ish "Ufo movie" then they are most likely a hoax.Wikidudeman (talk) 08:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
oh yes, there are loads of hoaxes - but there must be some squeaky-clean pictures we could use. Totnesmartin 16:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, when you write "I haven't seen a single photo..." etc just how much time have you spent researching the subject of UFOs, on which you insist on offering an opinion? Why don't you first e.g. take a look what the people in charge of various countries' (Hynek in US, Poher and Velasco in France, Smith in Canada, Pope in UK) UFO projects have said, who -unlike the armchair theorists- did field investigations of many different cases over decades. Or take a look at the list below, feel free to research those cases. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dhatz (talk • contribs) 02:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
I've spent several years studying "UFO"'s. When I was a child I even believed they were Alien space crafts. The list below is impossible for me to read and follow through on. And even if you posted the actual pictures I simply don't have the will or time to follow through on them and post explanations of how they are natural phenomenon or could be faked etc just so you could post a rebuttal and we argue for weeks on end point to point and get nowhere. If you want to believe super advanced alien races travel thousands of light years to little old earth just to float up in the sky or abduct farmers and do sexual experiments on them then that's fine with me. Really...Wikidudeman (talk) 09:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Significant or Convincing UFO Sightings

For reference (but can't be added to this article, it's already too long):

Jacques & Janine Vallee, Challenge to Science (1966) Survey of 29 U.S. UFO organizations (about 13 responding) of Most Significant or Convincing UFO Sightings

  1. Socorro, NM, Apr 24, 1964 (Zamora case)
  2. Washington, DC, July 19-20, 26-27, 1952 (Wash National Airport)
  3. Trindade Island, Brazil, Jan 16, 1958 (IGY photos)
  4. Mt. Rainier, Wash, June 24, 1947 (Kenneth Arnold case)
  5. Ft. Knox, Kentucky, Jan 7, 1948 (Mantell case)
  6. Southwest U.S. (Texas), Nov 1957 (Levelland etc.)
  7. Kinross AFB, Mich, Nov 23, 1953 (jet disappearance)
  8. Rapid City, SD, Aug 5-6, 1953 (radar-visual jet case)
  9. Lubbock, Texas, Aug 25, 1951 (Lubbock Lights photo)
  10. Newport News, VA, July 14, 1952 (Nash-Fortenberry case)
  11. Boianai, New Guinea, June 26-7, 1959 (Father Gill case)
  12. Fort Itaipu, Brazil, Nov 3, 1957
  13. Salem, Mass, July 16, 1952 (Alpert photo)
  14. Red Bluff, Calif, Aug 13, 1960
  15. Washington, DC, May 29, 1950 (Capt Sperry case)
  16. Goose Bay, Labrador, June 30,1954 (BOAC radar-visual)
  17. Rome, Italy, (Oct 28, 1954 ??) (radar-visual?? Clare Booth Luce??)
  18. New Jersey, (Apr 24, 1964 ??) (Wilcox contactee ??)
  19. Montgomery, Alab, July 24-5, 1948 (Chiles-Whitted case)
  20. Ubatuba, Brazil, Sept 1957 (magnesium physical evidence)
  21. McMinnville, Ore, May 11, 1950 (Trent case photos)

Nos. 2, 8, 16, 20 and 21 were investigated by the Condon Committee and 2 of the 5 remained _unexplained_ (nos. 16 and 21), Goose Bay and McMinnville.


Ronald Story with J. Richard Greenwell, UFOs and the Limits of Science (1981) Oct 1979 Survey of 90 Leading UFO Researchers (33 responding) Strongest UFO Evidence on Record

  1. McMinnville, Ore, May 11, 1950 (Trent case photos)
  2. Great Falls, Mont, Aug 15, 1950 (Mariana film)
  3. Newport News, VA, July 14, 1952 (Nash-Fortenberry case)
  4. Lakenheath AFB, Eng, Aug 13-14, 1956 (multiple radar-visual)
  5. Levelland, Texas, Nov 2-3, 1957
  6. Trindade Island, Brazil, Jan 16, 1958 (IGY photos)
  7. Boianai, New Guinea, June 26-7, 1959 (Father Gill case)
  8. Whitefield, NH, Sept 20, 1961 (Betty & Barney Hill case)
  9. Exeter, NH, Sept 3, 1965
  10. Ravenna, Ohio, Apr 17, 1966 (Spaur chase case)
  11. Mansfield, Ohio, Oct 18, 1973 (Coyne helicopter case)
  12. Tehran, Iran, Sept 19-20, 1976 (Iranian jet case)
  13. Kaikoura, New Zealand, Dec 31, 1978 (New Zealand film multiple radar-visual)

All three of the cases on this list that had been investigated by the Condon Committee, Nos. 1, 2 and 4 (McMinnville, Great Falls, and Lakenheath) remained _unexplained_ after investigation by the Condon Committee. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dhatz (talk • contribs) 23:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Sources and Citations

A lot of the statements concerning historical sightings of UFOs have citations that are dead links. Per WP:V, I have removed these statements. However, if someone can find the citations that go with them, they can probably go back in. Djma12 (talk) 20:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

  • nope they are working and so i added them back on, check to make sure your browser and/or internet connection and/or ISP and/or Firewall is not blocking or malfunctioning (:O) -Nima Baghaei (talk) 22:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Grr, that's what I get for editing from a hospital. Will check when I get home. Regards, Djma12 (talk) 23:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This information will open peoples eyes to UFOs but destroy any prof they think they have on UFOs. Im not going to deep into deatwils but the original desine of the UFO was by Hitler. He hired a sientist to come up with a powerful death machine that could fly extremaly high in the sky. Most of these files were clacified by our goverment in hopes to copy and profect the idea. Unfortunatly Hitler was successful and used them only twice in the war. After this the Nazis lost the war and Hitler and Eva Bron killed them selves. After that the idea in Germany became a fable. Then the soviet union found traces of his plans. Then America picked up on it and we tried to use this. The crash at Roswell was a test flight of one of the saucers that exploded on the airstrip. When the media picked up on all of this combined with other movies and fakings and questions about space fulled it into a conspiracy. Most UFOs are either controled by goverments or fake. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.192.170.17 (talk • contribs).

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