Talk:Unam sanctam

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Contents 1 General Commentary 2 NPOV 3 Restorations 4 Translation of First Sentence

[edit] General Commentary

An external link that contains a bunch of quotes taken out of context with no historical context or explanation other than a mis-leading title "The belief that all should submit to the Roman Pontiff" doesnt belong on Wikipedia. It's polemic and an overt attack on Catholics. It's non-encyclopedic. It's non-notable. It's POV. --Stbalbach 17:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This happens to be a case where sentences and paragraphs are so clear that they don't need Catholic apologists to deny their obvious meaning. The topic is so notable that Catholic apologists are labeling *these papal quotations as *hate speech.

A polemic is "a controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine." My desire to explain *The belief that all should submit to the Roman Pontiff is not a refutation or attack, unless of course, bringing scholarly attention and clarity to an ancient belief is a sure way to refute it.

There is no reason to suppose that a Wikipedia article on an interesting belief, supported by a list of papal paragraphs and their meaning, would be controversial because I would allow Roman Catholic scholars to explain it all in its historical context. My article would be similar to the Wikipedia article on *Papal Infallibility. --67.136.153.200 19:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Your external link is a self-link, you personally made it and change the contents of the document at will. Last I checked, it said some pretty nasty things directed towards Catholics. Your not a neutral source, your making a dogmatic sectarian attack against Catholics. If you want to create an encyclopedia article which anyone can edit, instead of a bunch of meaningless quotes that only you can edit as an external link, go for it. --Stbalbach 21:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Your claim of "pretty nasty things directed towards Catholics" from me is an untrue accusation. I have no desire to fabricate unjust anti-Catholic attacks. I am very satisfied to highlight and quote legitimate yet discarded and allegedly infallible Catholic dogma. Google's *cache copy of http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/PapalBull.htm only contains offensive papal statements. --67.136.140.194 00:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

An external link does not have to be NPOV, just the wikipedia article itself does. Wikipedia contains lots of links to the NPOV Catholic Encyclopedia (including this article) so I don't see the problem linking to a Protestant website. For example William Tyndale contains links to both Roman Catholic and Protestant views--Johnbull 20:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Following custom, the premises are not based on logical reasoning, but on allegorical interpretations of images in scripture, drawn from the Hebrew bible as well as the New Testament. The bull is brief, and anyone interested in it should read what survives of the original text (see links).

I have removed the text quoted above, because I found the "Following custom"-part rather offensive (and no, I'm not a Catholic), and I would like to request that someone does an NPOV-check on the rest of the article. -- ABoerma 01:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see Allegory in the Middle Ages, it was more than customary. Perhaps "not based on logical reasoning" could be removed since that is a modernism, comparing them to us, which is of no relevance. -- Stbalbach 03:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I read it as "Catholic custom". I'll try to slightly clarify it, though. -- ABoerma 12:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Catholic is correct. What other religion was there? Who else was issuing Bulls? -- Stbalbach 23:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restorations

I have restored some text silently suppressed and reverted some insertions as follows:

• "...which some historians consider one of the most extreme statements of Papal spiritual supremacy." "Some" was entered and has been deleted. A historian who does not consider Unam Sanctam one of the most extreme statements of Papal spiritual supremacy should by all means be quoted, if one can be found. There must be some Catholic apologia that takes such an extreme view. Let us hear it quoted. Meanwhile the sentence follows the historical mainstream.
• "Following medieval custom, the premises 'are not based on logical reasoning, but on allegorical interpretations..." Deleting the bolded phrase distorts the point, which is intrinsically interesting and essential to understanding the medieval world-view. "Not based on logical reasoning" is not a modernism, nor does it compare anything to "us", but simply parses the characteristic medieval method of thought, exemplified in a quote.
• "Unam Sanctum often refers to "the one and one and holy". It just doesn't. --Wetman 05:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of First Sentence

...As found on here:

Unam Sanctum in English

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins..."

and also, in Wikipedia Commons, as linked on the article itself, which appears to be the more literal:

"WE ARE COMPELLED, OUR FAITH URGING us, to believe and to hold—and we do firmly believe and simply confess—that there is one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins..."

and in Latin:

"Unam sanctam ecclesiam catholicam et ipsam apostolicam urgente fide credere cogimur et tenere, nosque hanc frmiter credimus et simpliciter confitemur, extra quam nec salus est, nec remissio peccatorum..."

--Midnite Critic 00:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)