Talk:Ume

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[edit] Cleanup

This page needs to be split, the recipe needs to be moved to wiki cookbook, and the introduction needs to be expanded to mention range, season, ecolology and human uses: decorative, pharmecutical, and for eating. see also umeboshi, which also needs to be taken to the cook book — Zeimusu | Talk 00:42, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

Ive created a sumomo article, it needs work.

[edit] This article vs Plum

Can someone clarify the link/difference between this article and Plum, both here and there? This article presently says that the Ume is a form of "asian plum". But the plum article does not meantion the word "mei/ume" at all.

I've posted this here because obviously there are people who know a lot about this species of the plum.

Also, the "plum" article keeps talking about the Republic of China's national flower being the "plum blossom". However, would it not be more accurately the "mei" blossom? Should that information be excised and perhaps moved to this article instead? Or should it be clarified over at plum? --Sumple (Talk) 12:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for writing. This article covers a species of Prunus native to East Asia: Prunus mume (known as ume in Japanese, maesil in Korean, and mei in Chinese).

Although it's referred to as a "plum," the ume is apparently more closely related to the apricot (another Prunus species) than to the European plums.

The blossom in Taiwan is mei/Prunus mume so that change should be made in the plum article. There are other plums grown in China and other East Asian countries, including European plums and li/sumomo. If you have more questions, just ask. Badagnani 16:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yabai and hibai

If the names "yabai" and "hibai" translate as "ume" then why isn't it "ya-ume" or "hi-ume"? What does "bai" mean? This should be explained and hiragana/kanji given. Badagnani 17:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "bai" is another reading of 梅.

yabai 野梅やばい
hibai 緋梅ひばい

"Bai" is mainly used in compound words (jukugo), not usually by itself. So you can say "Bai means ume" but I don't think you can say "Ume is also called bai". Does that make sense? --163.139.215.193 15:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The article is written in a very Japanese-POV way. The article seems to take Ume as a Japanese flower (for example, all the names are given only in Japanese. "Cultural significance refers only to its significance in Japan"), while actually it originates in China and is the national emblem for the Republic of China. I suggest the article be re-written so that its significance in both the Chinese and Japanese culture can be expressed. Aran|heru|nar 05:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you read the article again? Every section discusses something about this fruit vis-a-vis China and/or Taiwan. We can't help that the best known name in English, like many other foods, is the Japanese name, but the Chinese origin of this fruit, as well as Chinese uses of it, are certainly already acknowledged in the article. If you can be specific about the POV you see in each paragraph, we'll take it from there, but your criticism is vague as it stands now. Badagnani 05:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

E.g. this paragraph:

"Ume juice is extracted by preserving the fruits in sugar. It tastes sweet and acidic, and is a refreshing drink, often enjoyed in the summer. In Korea, maesil juice, which is marketed as a healthful tonic, is enjoying increasing popularity. Umeshu (梅酒, sometimes translated as "plum wine") is a Japanese alcoholic drink made by steeping green ume in shochu (燒酎, clear liquor). It is sweet and smooth. The taste and aroma of ume-shu can appeal to even those people who normally dislike alcohol. A similar liquor in Korea, called maesilju, is marketed under various brand names including mae hwa su, and mae chui soon.

Umeboshi 梅干 are pickled ume. Flavoured with salt and purple shiso (perilla) leaves, they are red in color and quite salty and sour, and therefore eaten sparingly. Umeboshi are generally eaten with rice as part of a bento."

Ume juice is rarely seen in China and is popular in Japan, and yet it makes only one small reference to the country it actually refers to. "Often enjoyed in the summer" is not only POV for a country, but is POV as a whole, and so is "can appeal to even those people who normally dislike alcohol". Thanks.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I was just in a local Chinese supermarket (in Cleveland, Ohio, USA) and there were several brands of China-produced "mei" (梅) juice (both smoked and unsmoked) in plastic bottles and canned. The summer reference you mention can probably be fixed with one or two added words like "in Japan." I still don't see what the problem is, and you're free to add to the article to make it more descriptive of Chinese and Taiwanese uses of the fruit. Badagnani 07:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Another example is that it states its uses and significance in Japan first and foremost, without even mentioning which country it refers to, and then add "Also in China" at the end of the sentence, e.g. "The tree was also well loved and celebrated in China", "it is also the national flower of the Republic of China)".Aran|heru|nar 07:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This shouldn't be too hard to fix. Do you agree that the fruit is more popular in Japan (and Korea) than it is in China? If not, then it should be balanced somehow. Badagnani 07:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it. Is there "mei" liquor in China or Taiwan? Badagnani 07:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Mei/Ume is more popular in Japan than in China. Mei is one of the traditional four flowers of China, and its significance is immense (i.e. it is mentioned many times in Shijing). Ume is probably more well-known in English as the US tends to import a lot of Japanese merchandise after WWII. By the way, the Mei blossom symbolizes nobleness and being "men of honour" (君子) in Chinese culture [1]. Some also deemed it lucky [2], and it has, probably in the modern era, been used to symbolize revolution and struggle [3].

All of this is interesting and important information. You should add it into the article. Probably whoever wrote most of the article was a Japanophile, and knew most about Japan but not much about China, like you do. So we all can strengthen articles from the knowledge we have. Badagnani 08:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added some information concerning it being a symbol for nobleness, though I don't yet have an English source that can be put there. Thanks for the work. Aran|heru|nar 07:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a little more information. I've tried to make the opening more balanced by listing the Jap, Chn, and Kor names in parallel. I've put the Japanese name first because that seems the most common name by which the fruit is known in English. I've also made some other edits to make sentences sound more universal in tone. --Sumple (Talk) 10:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice work, guys. There's a minor problem - half the "梅" in the article links to Wiktionary (while half doesn't). Don't you think one link is enough? Or should we link every Chinese word to a Wiktionary? It seems strange we're just linking some of them (randomly).

Another thing - aren't Umeboshi and Huamei sometimes called "prune" in English? Should we include the word along with a link? Aran|heru|nar 05:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

A few things: 1) I think the additional "mei" wikilinks were for words containing "mei" like "wumei," or "maesil," or whatever. You're right, a wikilink for "mei" should probably appear just once in the first instance, but it looks funny in a multi-character word like "wumei" to just wikilink one of the characters. 2) I never heard umeboshi or huamei called "prune" in English. Where did you see that translation? 3) a question: do Chinese make any kind of "mei" wine or liquor or is it just Japanese and Koreans that do this? One does see something called "plum wine" in North American Chinese restaurants, but I think it's usually a Japanese-produced thing, not so much for Chinese tastes. Badagnani 06:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

On the plum liquor question: I've seen/read about plum wine or plum liquor mentioned in books and tv shows set in ancient China. I don't know how widespread that was, though. In the Romance of the Three Kingdoms there's a famous scene between Cao Cao and Liu Bei which involved plums and wine - but separately - the plum, I think, was eaten while drinking wine. In any case, I've never seen made-in-China plum wine here in Australia - usually they are Korean-made.

On the prune question - I thought prunes are preserved plums - the other kind. They certainly look different. --Sumple (Talk) 09:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Osmanthus/chrysanthemum

The article says that Chinese mei juice is commonly flavored with guihua (Sweet Osmanthus) flowers. But photos on the Internet show juhua (chrysanthemum) flowers floating in cups of what appears to be boiled wumei. Can chrysanthemum thus be added to the article in this context? Also, isn't wumei boiled (sometimes along with red hibiscus flowers) to create a refreshing drink? This should be clarified as it's not only for medicinal purposes, and the "sour plum juice" then wouldn't really be a juice, but a kind of herbal tea, as it's made from boiling dried plums. Thanks in advance for your expertise with these questions. Badagnani 08:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I guess so. Sour plum juice is probably a tea rather than a juice. I've never tried (seen) mei/plum juice with chrysanthemum. Osmanthus flavoured plum juice/soup/tea is darker than the one in the picture - it's more of a Coke colour. Could be different regional varieties. --Sumple (Talk) 09:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I just tried some of that dark-colored osmanthus/mei juice and wanted that photo for the article but none of the ones I found were as good or clear as the light-colored juice photo I ended up adding. I described the color of the dark one as "purplish-black" or something like that. Badagnani 09:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's what appears to be a photo of wumei tea with floating juhua flowers. Is that traditional? http://info.agri.hc360.com/zt/050622/index.shtml Badagnani 09:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The weird thing is if you click on the photo of the wumei tea with juhua, you get a closeup photo of what looks like yangmei, not wumei! http://info.agri.hc360.com/2005/06/23091413194.shtml Badagnani 09:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha. I wonder what happened there? Pretty sure yangmei is something else entirely.... --Sumple (Talk) 10:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

At the time the plant was introduced to Japan and the name borrowed, the Chinese pronunuciation would not have been the modern méi. I have added a reconstructed pronunciation given in Kodansha's 『語源辞典』(山口佳紀, ed.) --RJCraig 04:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that the pronunciation is similar to the Cantonese pronunciation. Cantonese and Korean seem to retain many of the old Chinese pronunciations, including those with consonant endings. Badagnani 04:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I didn't go ahead and hazard a guess at Old or Middle Chinese because of the missing date of introduction. Since someone else had already quoted the modern Chinese there, I just put it in parentheses. But I felt the section was misleading as it was originally.

I don't know very much Cantonese or Korean, but your observation chimes with my own. Probably has something to do with the greater phonetic inventory in those languages? Modern Japanese is a bit poor in that respect! --RJCraig 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prunus?

I don't accept the current assertion in the article that "Ume" is the "most common" name by which that fruit is known in English. If you try a google search of Ume, the only results which are actually about the fruit/tree is this Wikipedia article, and a few websites about Japan which tend to parenthesise Ume after "Japanese Plum".

By contrast, either "Chinese plum" or "Chinese plum" bring up many more relevant results. Also, I'm reading Yu Zhuoyun's Palaces of the Forbidden City (great book, btw, if anyone's interested in that kind of thing. very big and heavy too, so worth your money in paper) (Viking:New York, 1984; Chinese version: Commercial Press:Hong Kong, 1982), and it refers to this plant as "Prunus". I wonder how common is that usage in English? --Sumple (Talk) 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It's extremely widely known in English as "ume" (particularly in its use in "umeboshi," or translated as "Japanese pickled plums," which are well known in health food stores and in the macrobiotic diet), as well as related items such as ume maki suchi and umeboshi vinegar. Chinese fresh "mei" aren't generally available and the pickled and/or dried versions are not well known among the general population, nor are Korean "maesil." "Chinese plum" can refer to li (李) as well and isn't the most commonly used name in English to refer to this fruit. "Prunus" is a Latin name and would be used to refer to the species as a whole by botanists. We don't usually refer to dogs as "canis," for example. Badagnani 23:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you supply some evidence that "ume" is commonly used in North America as you claim? The use of "ume" in "umeboshi" etc is a different matter because that refers to a specific product. As used in English, umeboshi is a single word and not separable into "ume" and "boshi" parts. To give an analogy, that "bonzai" is the common English name for dwarf shrubbery does not mean that "bon" is the common English name for pots.

In my experience, the fruit or tree is usually referred to as "Chinese plum" or "Japanese plum", and I think a Google search bears that out. Li (李) by contrast is usually just "plum", not "Chinese plum".

To start you off, ume does not appear in the Macquarie Dictionary, which is authority for Australian English, nor does it appear in the Oxford English Dictionary nor any of the Oxford English Dictionaries, which are authority for British and Commonwealth English. --Sumple (Talk) 02:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good discussion (and good recent edits on your part). As I stated earlier, the plant is known in North American mainly through its Japanese version: umeboshi and related products. Eden Foods, perhaps the largest marketer of Prunus mume products in North America, uses "ume plum" (see link; see link; see link; see link; see link; see link; see link. In the general North American population, "li" is not generally just called "plum" as you say; the European variety of plum (which is commercially available for most of the year, either grown here or in Chile) is the one that's just called "plum." The "li," in fact, is virtually unknown and is only usually available in candied form in Chinese grocery stores; most North Americans have never heard of this species. The "mei" (Chinese variety) and "maesil" (Korean variety) in their Chinese and Korean forms are generally known only among those communities in North America (available only in Chinese and Korean markets) and among those who are friends with or married to Chinese or Koreans. Chinese and Korean plum wine is similarly generally unknown, but Japanese-produced plum wine is well known (although it is usually called "plum wine" rather than "umeshu"). So, like many other food products, at least in North America (and I assume also in the UK and Australia/Oceania) "ume" is the most commonly used term. Badagnani 07:10, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that's a revelation. We do find Chinese plums (i.e. li) here in Australia. What's more, plum wine here is usually a Korean thing - although it is also called "plum wine" and rarely as "maesilju".

Umeboshi and other Japanese ume products are virtually unknown - perhaps reflecting the fact that there isn't a significant Japanese population here compared to in North America, whereas there are large Korean and Chinese communities. I think you can find umeboshi in health food stores. But by far the most common ume-derived product is plum sauce - which of course is a Chinese thing - but it is just called plum sauce.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I feel though these things need reliable references rather than anecdotal evidence in the article. --Sumple (Talk) 11:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Is that so? That's fascinating. So there are some significant differences. I've never been to Australia though I play in an Australian bush band here in Ohio! When you speak of knowledge and availability of li, you're speaking of the general Australian population, not just those who are immersed in East Asian immigrant cultures there? So you say that the li is well known--are there li trees and fresh li fruit available? That's definitely not the case in North America. Probably a sentence or two about the differences in Australia could be added, as another significant English-speaking nation (one that is on the Pacific Rim and thus with a heavy East Asian influx). Badagnani 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Haha, wow, Australian culture spreads far and wide.

I'm not sure how well know is the li, but it is definitely available as a fresh fruit in mainstream markets. I'm not sure but it might be imported like Ya pear, which is also (perhaps much more) widely available.

(after a Google search) In fact, it says here that Japanese plums (Prunus salicina) and Asian plums (Prunus simonii) are grown in Western Australia, with Japanese plums dominating stonefruit orchards! --Sumple (Talk) 00:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That's really incredible. I've never seen either mei nor li fresh anywhere. It's a shame because many of the Asian fruits will grow here; one of my favorites is the loquat and I've only seen one such tree, in Tallahassee, Florida. More traditional (read: less sweet) ume shu and maesil ju (with whole green fruits inside) are beginning to show up in non-Asian liquor stores, so there's one thing that's beginning to become better known here. Question: is Chinese "plum sauce" made from "mei"? It always just says "plum" in the ingredients, so I always assumed it was the Western large purple/reddish plum that was used. Here is my band's website, in case you want to have a laugh. Our accents need some work, I suppose. Badagnani 00:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Aisan plum sauce: I think it is, because it's called meizijiang ("mei fruit sauce/paste"). The European plum is usually called yangli ("foreign li"), or sometimes just li.

Nice site. And wow, you're very multi-talented! =D --Sumple (Talk) 00:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, OK, so meizijiang needs to be added to the "Ume" article, then, and probably merits its own article. By the way, are you of Chinese heritage? You're obviously into Asian culinary things, so might I ask if you could check out my additions to Buddha's delight and see if it fits with what you know about this dish? There are some good Chinese articles I've linked that have good source info, particularly on the Guangdong version of this dish, but I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly. Badagnani 00:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

One more question: do you know the fruit yangmei? I'm trying to get it in the Asian grocery store but although I've seen it before (in a bottle, whole fruits immersed in a reddish liquid) none of the stores seem to have it now. I'd like to try it. Just picked up some canned longans today. Badagnani 01:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Another question: is duck sauce different from plum sauce? In my experience, it is: duck sauce is apricot- or peach-based and light orange in color, whereas plum sauce is a deep purplish brown, and not as translucent. If different, we should eliminate the redirect from plum sauce to duck sauce and make a plum sauce article. Please check the addition to Ume where I added about plum sauce and make sure it's accurate. Badagnani 01:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits! I've also had a look at Buddha's delight but I don't know much about the dish, so can't really contribute ther. I am of Chinese heritage; I'm enthusiastic about food in general and Asian food in particular, as I see you are too!

Yangmei: in my experience yangmei is usually sold fresh (when in season), bottled/canned (the version you saw: it was probably sugar water, the red colour being from the strong natural colour of the fruit), or preserved or dried.

I doubt you'd be able to get fresh ones. If you can't get canned/botted ones, see if you can find foil bagged ones, which are close to being fresh - they should be sold alongside the non-dry variety of Huamei (preserved ume).

There might also be dried versions - sometimes they are sugar coated. These might be near the dry variety of Huamei.

I don't really know what "duck sauce" is; I don't think we use that name here. But I agree with you that the sauce served with roast duck is sometimes the light orange kind. More later. --Sumple (Talk) 02:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

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Talk:Ume

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Contents

[edit] Cleanup

[edit] This article vs Plum

[edit] Yabai and hibai

[edit] POV

[edit] Osmanthus/chrysanthemum

[edit] Etymology

[edit] Prunus?

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