Talk:Umaril The Unfeathered

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[edit] Just a Note

This article reads like a mini-walkthrough... VoidTalker 05:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

How else can it read? It's a game! The game's story is a walkthrough. Thus by explaining the story, I am indirectly providing a subtle walkthrough. Do note however, I am only roughly explaining the storyline, and am not saying how to do the things that I am talking about, and hardly any in-game help could be derived from this article. Anonymous Dissident 22:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Game articles do not need to be walkthroughs; if the article can't describe the character (which I'm quite confident doesn't deserve an article to begin with), then the article shouldn't exist. Please see WP:NOT#IINFO as well. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 01:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

He's wrong anyway. Listen, if you will look, you will see that many, less important characters HAVE been given the right of an article, so unless you provide a reason for your disconsent for the article, I dismiss your comment. Anonymous Dissident 09:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it might be worthwhile to consider the other articles on "Boss Characters" from these games. The article on Dagoth Ur, for example, summarizes the entire confrontation with him thus: "At the end of the 3E, Dagoth Ur was finally killed by the reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar. Depending on player choices, Dagoth Ur may or may not be told that his slayer is, in fact, the reincarnation of his former general." There is no mention of the quest to obtain the tools to kill him, just his history and the fact that he was killed. If this article is to remain separate, it should remain strictly about Umaril, not the quest required to defeat him, the acquisition of the relics, etc. That information belongs in the KotN article. Information such as, in the Spirit World section, "he is fully restored in his health points" and other bits and pieces like that are what need to be removed. I agree that he needs an article, but it needs to be more about the lore of the character than his game mechanics, which belong in a walkthrough or game guide. For now I will simply clean up the spelling and grammar of the article, hopefully we'll reach a consensus about exactly what belongs in the article and what doesn't VoidTalker 17:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Because you may not have read what I presented to you, which is a good reason for disconsent for the article (I even presented you a Wikipedia guideline that supports my statements), I will respond again: before you talk about "other articles existing," you should probably see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS: just because an article exists doesn't mean it should; unless it's survived one or more AfDs, then there's no point in bringing up the existence of other articles. Also, if this article can't be altered to a state that justifies its existence, I will AfD the article to discover if it truly needs to exist or not. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 17:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not really want some huge controversy (which I think this could become), I just dont think my hard work needs deletion. I myself cannot see what's wrong, so I will try, but I'll need help to get this article to the state that you guys want it. Perhapes you should see that associates, Klptyzm, who believe in fixing articles not deleting them, instead of throwing articles at me to read? ÅñôñÿMôús Dîššíd3nt 07:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

In the end, I'm simply trying to discover if this article really needs to exist or not; unfortunately, I haven't played Knights of the Nine to know this first hand, so I can't really figure this out on my own. The article can be fixed very simply, but that still may not mean it needs to exist. First, the article needs to be rewritten in a sense that asserts its notability, mainly, perhaps, by telling how the character has an impact on Oblivion; second, all irrelevant information, i.e. walkthrough information, needs to be removed, leaving only important information about the character; after this has been done sufficiently, that will determine if it needs to stay or not. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 06:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I agree. Unfortunately, there is little in-game lore about this character, but perhapes there are other sources where information can be found. I really do think he deserves an article - he is the main enemy of KoTN, like Mankar Camoran is the main enemy of Oblivion. He is not just some on-the-side character. ♣ ÅñôñÿMôús _{Dîššíd3nt} 19:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I suppose more info can be found on him in other sources too, maybe, but, if not, this may need to be merged into the "Oblivion Characters" article. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 21:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to disagree. Lets just make the changes first. ♣ ÅñôñÿMôús _{Dîššíd3nt} 22:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I feel that I could do is remove all of the information below the introduction, reducing it to stub status, then you could add all of the relevant and notable information; I don't condone this course of action, but that's the best I could do for the article, as of late. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 23:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

(Un-indent) I think that Umaril deserves to have his own article, and there is probably enough lore in the 'Song of Pelinal' to justify it. A lot of the information in the article, such as the info on the general storyline of the plug, would probably fit wonderfully over at the KotN article, but not here. VoidTalker 03:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, then get rid of all the walkthrough and game guide information, and put all of the relevant info in. That will show if this article deserves to exist or not. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 23:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Is any one going to do it? Like I said, I don't have a lot of information about Oblivion to remove info discriminately enough. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 02:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I am, in less than 6 hours time. So please wait for deletion. And Klptyzm, you are so strongly against the article, but you admitted that you have little information about Oblivion, and even less about Kotn. Maybe you shouldnt dispute things when you already have little information about them. I myself am fed up of this debate. It tires and it bores me. I shall now fix this article within the day, I promise. After I have done this, I would like to have the deletion tag removed, or at least contested. ♣ ÅñôñÿMôús _{Dîššíd3nt} 22:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

hold on for half a second. this page is not going to be deleted within at least several days, as it clearly does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion. having the {{hangon}} tag here is totally inappropriate. the deletion of the page, as demonstrated by the AfD entry, is contested, but it cannot and should not be removed without due process or an overwhelming consensus. just relax a bit and present your arguments there rather than here. if it can be demonstrated that sufficient in-game lore exists for umaril such that the article could be expanded, then the debate is over and the article should clearly be kept; it is sufficient to simply state this and show the sources (ie books from the UESP wiki or screenshots) to conclude the debate. 162.83.150.128 23:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

dammit; i keep getting logged out. the above is me. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 23:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

point taken. Listen, I will do this page, I promise anyone who cares that. I will fix it. It just might take me a while because of other commitments and things I need to do in and out of wikipedia. So believe me, it will be done, but perhapes not within the 6 hours or day that was aforementioned. Thanks, ♣ ÅñôñÿMôús _{Dîššíd3nt} 11:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm puzzled as to why there is even a whole WikiProject for this. Don't you guys think you should go over to Elder Scrolls Pages wiki and improve this info there? Shouldnt an article about Oblivion/The Elder Scrolls be sufficient, and add an external link to that wiki? These articles more or less reinvent the wheel. 74.69.245.119 08:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)