Talk:Ultras
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What is the article missing:
- The origin of the "Ultra" usage. from what I remember there were three major possiblilites:
- Ultras, as in "extremist" or "extreme";
- Ultras, from the Clockwork Orange term Ultra Violence;
- An acronym created by early Sampdoria groups
- Public detractors of the movement
- Some photos. I could get plenty of photos with permission from Colectivo 95 (FC Porto), but it would make the article look very one sided.
- notable incidents
Given time, this could be a featured article, methinks. \ wolfenSilva / 10:56, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Political Allegiance
I think the ultra groups should have their political allegiance next to them. There used to be a map of Italian ultras groups on this page.
[edit] Revisit this article?
I think the biggest mistake in this article is to confuse ultra culture with other forms or football supporting.
The ultra culture can be said to have born with Fossa at 1968. It got its name when a Turin journalist used the term to describe Torino's supporters who later adapted it as their official name: Ultras Granata.
And by no means this is not to claim that "organised football supporting culture" would have born at 1968 with Fossa. For example even in Turin itself Fedelissimi Granata had existed much longer.
Neither should movemento ultra be confused with other football supporting subcultures. "The original scarf-waving and chanting English culture" or later burberry brigades are very different from ultras. (And this is not to start argument if there is better or worse support in The Kop than in Curva Nord. It is just different.)
(Luckily American tailgating in soccer matches was already excluded. :D )
How about creating topic "football (soccer) supporting cultures" and under that we could discuss different subcultures? Now this feels bit like someone would try describe everything about rock music in the topic of Sex Pistols.
Tim (March 30th, 2006)
As a true football fan, I find this alticle rather strange as it seems to give the ultras an easy ride. I have been unfortunate enough to encounter ultra groups both at games and away from the stadium and I feel the contention that they are not violent or are somehow different to regular hooligans is somewhat misleading. Also the adoption of such extremist right-wing iconography is dealt with in a rather blase way. While I admit that British football still has problems with violence, racism and racist chanting, there is nothing on the scale of what regularly transpires amongst ultra groups. (Jim - 30/1/06)
In light of various threats alleged to have been made to Liverpool supporters - threats attributed to "ultras" from Juventus, perhaps this article needs to be enhanced.
For example an article in The Times talks about threats that certainly put the "ultras" into a category of violent football hooligan, if the reports are true:
The reactions of that hard-line element among the Turin club’s followers have increased Liverpool’s concerns about the safety of their supporters on Wednesday. No public comment was made on the matter yesterday, but club officials are known to be worried about the threats of violence that have been made on websites by Juventus “ultras”. These messages carried threats to “break the bones of the red animals”. One of them read: “I want to see them covered in their own blood.”
I myself would rather not alter the article - I am a Liverpool supporter myself and so could be seen to putting a biased slant to things - but someone needs to review the article to balance it out.
--sideiron 21:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this article needs a revist, some sections of it don't feel to me to be NPOV, particuarly the hooliganism section. I am not a football supporter, and so don't know anywhere near enough to do justice to this article. I'll have a think as to where to make a note of it to try and attract some attention. Thryduulf 21:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Groups losing banners...
It is simply not true that groups who lose their main banners "traditionally split up". Look at all the banners that change hands in the course of a season in Poland, for example. You'd have groups splitting up every other week...
[edit] Groups
The list of groups must be in a new page, or somebody that knows how to place them with order must edit this page.
[edit] List of groups created
I create the page for the list of ultras groups, the List of ultras groups need to be expanded, so the extense list of this page can be deleted.
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- I'm gonna edit the list of groups section. This page is fine, but that list make it too long, and it keep growing. So i'm going to put the link to List of ultras groups in that section. I can't put all the groups alone, so i will put the current list in the talk page of the list page, i will make it in three days if nobody oppose to it.--Bauta 06:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
@Rapid Wien: ALTE GARDE is not ultrà, they are hooligans. -sol invictus-
@US American groups: are those really groups that deserve the term "Ultras"? According to my own epxerience in the US, the atmosphere at a graveyard is more exciting and lively than at a footie match. A group of 5 people in the stands, jumping up and down doesn't make them ultras, does it?
@Belgium: De Noormannen are not ultras! Drughi are!
[edit] Merge?
As stated on this page the list of groups page was created to simplify this page. Someone who knows how to do it please cancel that proposal and make one new with the suggestion of the section on this page to be traspased to the list page
The two pages should be merged in my opinion. What is incredibly odd about the Ultras list page is that there are Ultras Groups listed on both the main page and the Talk Page. Take the England Ultras Groups for instance - on the Main Page is a list of supposed Ultras Groups - non of which seem to be real Ultras Groups and certainly not the ICF who are a Hooligan Firm and do not call themselves Ultras. Then on the Talk page there is another totally different list with the details of 'real' Ultras Groups in England such as the Accrington and Aldershot Ultras, together with links to their websites. So, taking that into account surely the two pages should be merged and the two different lists combined into one on this page? Tangerines 21:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Nonsense?
under detractors - "...to more serious criticisms like theft of highway service stations..." is this manglish (perhaps meaning robberies etc.) or nonsense? Dibo 06:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Update
I will try to add most of the "ultras" and "barras" to the list of ultras that are still missing, unify both lists and upload pictures for the ones allready on the list. I've already corrected some of the Argentinian names, added one for mexico, three for Costa Rica and one for colombia.
[edit] Shed End Invincibles
How r u? I took Shed End Invincibles off the list of groups 'cause they don't exist anymore, someone keeps putting their banner up but they don't ever do anything else and the banner is falling to pieces.
[edit] External Links
I cleaned the links list, removing 404's, forums, non pertinent and team specific sites. Sites listed should only be related to the general "ultras" term and not single supporters groups. As Wiki guidelines, forums should not be listed. Maybe Tifonet.net is to be listed only in the italian voice? Fototifo.it contains just pics so it's easy to browse it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.38.79.109 (talk) 12:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] seems like an apologia for ultras
The article as it currently reads seems like an advocacy piece, trying to convince us that ultras are peaceful and rumors of hooliganism are overplayed and unfair, and so on. It needs to be made much more neutral, and statements cited to specific people rather than made out of thin air. --Delirium 15:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- I completely agree. It reads, without any citation, that "Ultras are just misunderstood"... --Bobak 20:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No ultras in England
There are no ultra groups in England, the toon ultras are a bunch of kids who just shout and get a little abusive. They should be deleted. They are noise groups.
Sorry but here are Ultras Groups in England. Accrington Stanley and Aldershot Town for instance are two of the clubs who have Ultras Groups. The Accrington Ultras are an officially recognised Fan Group. Both of these Groups have websites. Tangerines 21:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
