Talk:Uley

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[edit] Pronunciation of Uley

I would like to challenge the addition of "you-lee" as a definition of how to pronounce the name of 'Uley'. If anything, the usual pronunciation locally is "you-lih". No-one I have met in all my years living here says "you-lee": the "ee" is too strong to represent the actual sound.

The whole point of using the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) in Wikipedia is to provide a single, consistent and accurate way of defining pronunciation, as befits an encyclopedia. Can we not just stick with that? Downhamhill 10:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe I first added in a pronounciation reference soon after the article was created in order to provide a pointer for readers who might think it was prounouced Ugh-lee like the similarly spelt village of Ulley near rotherham (like I did before I moved here) (I have also heard it pronounced Ooh-lee in nearby bristol). This was replaced soon after by the IPA definition which is widely used in wikipedia. The reason why I added back in the you-lee reference is because I imagine most people would not be able to interpret IPA symbols and may appreciate something more accessible. The IPA definition is still there to provide the accurate definition (although I personally have no way of knowing if it is indeed accurate because I don't understand the symbols and don't really want to learn just to check this point). I have come across articles on wikipedia which provide both the IPA verison and an english type version so I thought both could be accomodated here.

Having said all that, I'm not about to start a revert war if you object to the english use and want to remove it completely and just stick with the IPA version. I would find it strange though if you changed you-lee to you-lih since that is the worst of both worlds. I don't know how to pronounce lih at all (does it rhyme with high?). Or does it rhyme with Lee?! I guess this kind of arguement is exactly why IPA was invented as you say. My proposal therefore is:

• Either stick with the IPA version only
• Or, put in an english version as well as the IPA version which approximates the sound using recognisable words that rhyme with the syllables (like you and lee for example although I am sure there are others).

ChrisUK 11:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's go with your second proposal to use both forms: it is consistent with the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation) after all. I would still prefer to see an alternative to "lee", although I am not sure what that might be. It is a difficult syllable to illustrate in isolation, which is why I resorted to "lih" (i.e. a soft i sound) to illustrate my initial comment.

Downhamhill 11:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

After reading through the style guidelines and taking into account your comments about the lee pronounciation, how about the following article intro:

Uley (IPA pronunciation: [ 'juːlɪ ] and also rhymes with Julie) is a village in the ...

ChrisUK 13:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I started to say I didn't think was possible to describe the pronunciation unambiguously without using IPA or equivalent, because it's almost a schwa, and ... then I got an edit conflict and found Chris had found a way. Yes. --JennyRad 13:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Good solution- I'll go with that, Chris.

Downhamhill 10:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Change made ChrisUK 13:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] strange facts about uley

In the surrounding locality section the main points are described which have an association with Uley (e.g. owlpen, the tump, uley bury etc). However the last sentence could be written about just about any town or village around there:

Nearby are Berkeley Castle, Sharpness (the eighth-largest port in the southwest of England), the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal and the River Severn.

I wouldn't particularly think of berkeley castle, sharpness or the river severn as being nearby to uley, there's loads of things in between. Also, I don't think this adds any additional encylopedic insight into Uley and therefore propose to remove it.

[edit] Origin of place names in the Uley Valley

On 14th February 2007, 62.172.124.68 added the following statement to the article on Uley: "NB local associated hamlet names of Owlpen (pronounced "Old Pen"), Lampern (Lamb Pen) and river/stream name Ewelme ("Ewe") lend support to the possibility that the village name is derived from the historic dependence on the wool trade."

I have removed this from the article in line with Wikipedia policy, since these are conjectures rather than verifiable facts. However, since the origin of place names is something that is endlessly debatable - and sometimes controversial - it seems worthwhile to start a discussion item here on the topic instead.

I am not as convinced as 62.172.124.68 that these names have much to do with the wool trade. According to Eilart Ekwall (viz. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English PlaceNames. 4th edition. Oxford University Press, 1960.), the Old English meaning of the name Ewelme is a spring, or source of a river. This seems a much more likely explanation for the naming of the little river that rises in the Uley valley.

Regarding Owlpen and Lampern: pen often means a headland or hill, and this would be a good alternative explanation for the names of both these places. However, Ekwall does state that the former is probably ‘’Olla’s pen or enclosure’’; no mention of sheep though!

Finally, a search on the etymology of the word ewe reveals that its roots lie in the Latin ovis sheep, and Greek ois, which in turn became Eowu in Old English (see Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary). Not quite the same sounding name as it is today, and so perhaps less likely as the origin of the name of Uley’s river a thousand years ago. The place names in the Uley valley appear in the Domesday Book and other contemporary documents, and so must have been established long before the wool trade got going in the area. The wool trade only became important to Uley during the later mediæval period, when its copious supplies of fresh water were important for the processing of wool; see Derek Hurst’s book, Sheep in the Cotswolds (Tempus Publishing, 2005), for an excellent study of this subject. So I am somewhat sceptical about the local connection between place names and sheep.

Are there any toponymists out there who can help with this?!

Downhamhill 18:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)