Talk:Ukrainian People's Republic

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Contents 1 Move to Ukrainian National Republic 2 Needs expansion 3 more on expansion 4 Pogroms 5 Map 6 Other corrections

[edit] Move to Ukrainian National Republic

Would anyone object to moving this article to Ukrainian National Republic? To me, Нарід (Narid) seems more literally nation, although a people is also an acceptable translation. National also seems more evocative of its identity in contrast to the Bolshevik revolution, while People's Republic is more popularly reminiscent of communist regimes in the 20th century.

I'm just starting to read up on the history of the UNR/UPR, so any insight is welcome. —Michael Z. 19:12, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)

It looks like the "national" name is more widespraad,, and its abbreviation matches with the ukrainian: UNR == УНР. However the "people's" would be a better translation of the idea of the republic of "common people". The word "nation" doesn't bear this flavor. Mikkalai 22:08, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

By the way, do I understand you correctly that you are going to write the article? I realize that the stub I created sucks horribly. I made it for the sole purpose to collect the red links from different names into one place.

If you will, then I will not edit it now. Mikkalai 22:08, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have the impression that National is more widely used, but suspect that's partly due to diaspora writers' and publishers' politics. On the other hand, UNR is conveniently bilingual.

I'm planning to get familiar with this part of Ukrainian history that I mostly ignored in school, and eventually fill out the relevant articles a bit. I'm in no rush, and glad to learn from Wikipedia, so go ahead and edit as much as you like. —Michael Z. 00:17, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind at all. In Polish both translations are equally popular, with the People's version being only slightly more popular than the rest. However, there's also a plethora of serious publications that use only the abbreviation or some Polish transcryption of the Ukrainian name, which is also quite widespread. Halibutt 02:56, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

I prefer People's Republic. My use of narid has more to with the people, the folk/volk. I agree it has been mistranslated by the diaspora, and as for transliterating the acronyms, I don't think that should be high on the list of priorities. Better to get across the spirit of the words to the non-slavic-speaking folks.--tufkaa 22:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs expansion

Thanks for putting the expansion tag up, Irpen. I will write the rest, but it may be a few days. Cheers. —Michael Z. 2005-05-29 19:19 Z

Actually, I did not want to hit the article with the expansion tag. Any article in WP could use some expansion and we should use some discretion in deciding why would such a tag be placed. I am not aware of a policy on these, so I use my own "policy". My view is that if the article because substantial info is missing may mislead the reader into a wrong conclusion, we should tag it. If the misleading is caused by POV dispute, the POV tag applies. If this is just because it is incomplete, I place an expansion tag, like I did for the Cristianity article and UGCC article. This UPR article is NOT misleading even in current shape when it does not cover the entire history. So, the horisontal line you placed with a hidden comment was OK with me. But since it was edited out by another editor, I thought it is better to have an expansion tag than no sign at all. Regards, -Irpen 17:35, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] more on expansion

This article, even not yet covering an entire time period, is, as of now, one of the jewels on the Ukrainian history we have in WP, because it is written in consistensy, rather than thrown together from random thoughts of disconnected editors. We have a mess with Cossack times (although the Sich and Host article are good in themselves, but see the talk at Host for more). Actually, most of UA history as of now at WP is very unfinished because Michael can only do as much, and others (myself included) are even less committed and there are so few of us.

OK, after this lengthy intro here is my proposal. I think this article (even in its current unfinished form) is more than about UNR but about the period of History of UA between the break-up of the RU Empire and establishment of the Soviet Ukraine under Bolsheviks. Should we have the name reflect that? Or should we have another article devoted to history (which we can base on the current UNR article) and have several "mainarticles" (UNR, Hetmanate, Directoria). It's just similarly to impossibility to have separate decent articles on UPTs-KP and UPTs-MP, we can't really separate them. Yes, the name is the problem here. The History of Romania series, has an article called Communist Romania which speaks of the periond of Romanian People's Republic and Romanian Socialist Republic. Can we invent a name, that would fit for us? ANy other ideas? Thanks! --Irpen 05:17, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

My experience shows that it may be helpful to copy/merge some info into a given, larger article, then work it out to FA. I see several Ukrainian-related articles that could be FAed with some effort, like Cossacks and History of Cossacks. Regarding the interwar period, I'd suggest begining with History of Ukraine#The 20th century section, creating a subarticle and working your way from there. It would be good to agree on naming convention; I think dates are better then imaginastive names. At least this is the approach I used for History of Poland series - once it was 'Piast Poland', 'Noble's democracy', ect. now it is simply 'History of Poland (year - year)'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 09:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Not a bad idea for the name. So, that would be an article named History of Ukraine (1917 - 1922). I think that would work. As for Cossacks and History of Cossacks, pls check the recent talk at Talk:Zaporozhian Host#Disconnected material from the article, also re razing (massacre). Thanks! --Irpen 09:19, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

There is also an issue whether you want an article on history or on the former state - those are not the same. Thus the difference between Template:Polish statehood and Template:History of Poland. Or to be more specific, compare Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with History of Poland (1569-1795) and People's Republic of Poland with History of Poland (1945-1989). Eventually, there will be separate series on economy, culture, geography etc. of those former states - at least, this is how I envision the development of Wiki articles in those series. You may want to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization for some related ideas. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

With regards to the newly created Ukrainian National Revolution (1917-1921), I guess that it is similar to the article proposed above. I do not agree with eliminating UPR because of its significance as an independent (albeit short-lived and flawed) state. As a matter of categorizing history, I agree with the statement that the period between the RU Empire and establishment of the YPCP would be better served as a subsection of History of Ukraine.--tufkaa 22:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, the History of UA needs to be divided into subarticles at some point. Check History of Poland or History of Russia. I started to expand the UA history article but I could use help. Let's discuss it! --Irpen 23:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pogroms

The entry Petlura discusses the problem. It was rather the problem of the country than of Petlura. It should be mentioned here. Xx236 13:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

It should be interesting to create or find a map of the Ukrainian People's Republic ! Bogatyr 11:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other corrections

"As the result, the lands of Galicia (Halychyna), the western part of the traditional territory of Ukraine, as well as a large part of the Volyn territory had been incorporated into Poland, while the larger central parts of traditional Ukrainian territory, as well as predominantly Russian eastern and southern areas became part of Soviet Ukraine."

Prior to 1940-1950's eastern and southern areas of Ukraine didn't have significant russian presence. Migration of russians started after holodomor and more after the end of WW2.