Template talk:UKFormation

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Contents 1 Statute of Rhuddlan 2 1920 Government of Ireland Act 3 Deannexation of England and Wales (1955) 4 England and Wales

[edit] Statute of Rhuddlan

I'm not sure the Statute of Rhuddlan should be included in this template. It was basically a law dealing with the internal arrangement of Wales. The Acts of Union 1536-1543 joined England and Wales together, which was really the first step in the creation of the UK. --JW1805 (Talk) 22:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you mean the Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542 :) The 1535 Act refers constantly to the new shires in the Marches being created to a similar model as "the three Shires of North Wales". Those three having been created by the Statute of Rhuddlan. It also makes reference to towns being annexed to other existing shires such as Glamorgan, Carmarthen, Cardigan and Pembroke. The 1535 Act is merely to do with laws in an existing English dominion — a dominion which was created by the Statue of Rhuddlan. Owain 10:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that Rhuddlan created Wales as a personal feif of the King's. This is not the same thing as uniting the two kingdoms. For example, the Kingdom of Ireland also shared the same monarch as England, but they were two separate kingdoms, not united until the Act of Union 1800.--JW1805 (Talk) 15:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There was no "Act of Union" between England and Wales. The area of Wales was gradually conquered by the Anglo-Normans in the same way as England was. The conquest began in 1066 and was finally complete by 1282. Hence the Statue of Rhuddlan confirming that all the lands were now part of the same realm: "The Divine Providence, which is unerring in its own Government, among the Gifts of its dispensation, wherewith it hath vouchsafed to distinguish us and our Realm of England, hath now of its Favour, wholly and entirely transferred under our proper Dominion, the Land of Wales, with its Inhabitants, heretofore subject unto us, in feudal right, all Obstacles whatsoever ceasing; and hath annexed and united the same unto the Crown of the aforesaid Realm, as a Member of the same body." Owain 09:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Look, when I say "Acts of Union", I mean the "Acts of Union 1536-1543", even though they weren't called that at the time, that's what they are called now. Your quote says that Wales is "under our proper Dominion....subject to us, in feudal right" and "annexed and united the same unto the Crown". This seems to indicate what I'm saying (and what is said in the various Wikipedia articles) that Rhuddlan put Wales under the English Monarch as a personal feif, but did not quite merge Wales into the Kingdom of England. Just because the same King ruled England and Wales doesn't mean that England and Wales were the same state (see Personal union). The so-called "Acts of Union" had the overall effect of joining England and Wales together, and creating a new state (or legal entity) England and Wales, where Wales now had representatives in the English Parliament. Thus, these acts are the counterparts of the later Act of Union 1707 (which joined England and Scotland), and the Act of Union 1800 (which joined Great Britain and Ireland).--JW1805 (Talk) 16:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't care what you like to call them, they are not Acts of Union. The Acts of Union of 1707 and 1800 were passed by both the Scottish and Irish Parliaments respectively, as well as that of England. That is what is meant by "union". The Laws in Wales Act 1535 was only passed by the English Parliament to extend English law into a dominion that was already part of England. That is not a union. The correct titles of the Acts are "Laws in Wales", irrespective of what you think. Why you insist on renaming the article is beyond me. Why not have a go renaming some other Acts while you're at it? How about renaming the Licensing Act 2003 the Binge-drinking Act 2004? You are in danger of violating the Three-revert rule - I think we need someone else to mediate here... Owain 19:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I think we are off-topic here anyway. Discussions about whether the Wikipedia article should be "Acts of Union" or "Laws in Wales Acts" should be discussed at Talk:Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542. I put in a Request for Move on that, so hopefully others will contribute to the discussion, and it will be settled one way or the other.--JW1805 (Talk) 23:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

There has been further discussion on the inclusion of earlier treaties specific to either of the states which would go on to form the UK here. In line with the comments expressed ive removed the Anglo-Welsh specific treaties to leave only the treaties which directly lead to the formation of the UK. siarach 13:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Ive created a seperate template which contains the Anglo-Welsh treaties here -Template:WalesinUK as well as the later treaties relevant to the UK itself for use on pages dealing with Wales and those treaties.siarach 14:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1920 Government of Ireland Act

This didnt essentially change the title of the United Kingdom as it remained The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until the Anglo-Irish Treaty. I understand the importance of it in terms of dividing Ireland into North and South but is it important enough to be in this template? --Horses In The Sky 12:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• My logic for including it was that it changed the constitutent parts of the Union. Before there was England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland. After there was England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Southern Ireland. --JW1805 (Talk) 18:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deannexation of England and Wales (1955)

Formation of the United Kingdom
Statute of Rhuddlan (1284)
Laws in Wales Acts (1535–42)
Union of the Crowns (1603)
Acts of Union (1707)
Act of Union (1801)
Government of Ireland Act (1920)
Anglo–Irish Treaty (1921)
Royal & Parliamentary Titles Act (1927)
De-annexation (1955)

I think the de-annexation of England and Wales (1955) must be added to the template. How do you think about it? --yes0song 14:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I would have to disagree. First and foremost there doesn't appear to ba an article to link to. Secondly this template relates to the [b]Formation[/b] of the UK. While an important constitutional step for Wales this was not an event in the formation of the UK. Yorkshire Phoenix 14:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I would also have to disagree with its inclusion on the grounds aforesaid. Jhamez84 23:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there is definately a place for a template which lists all such treaties within the UK but, for the same reason the pre UK Anglo-Welsh treaties should not be included, the de-annexation of Wales has no place on a template dealing with the formation of the UK ( had de-annexation also resulted in independence from the UK that would be a different matter). siarach 13:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes0song, I do not know where you get this date "1955" from? The only thing that seems to have happened in 1955 was that, arguably for the first time in history, Wales had an official capital declared (Cardiff). When you talk of "de-annexation" I assume that you are referring to the repeal of the Wales and Berwick Act 1746 (as it applies to Wales, but not Berwick) by the fourth section of the Welsh Language Act 1967. If this truly was "de-annexation" then the UK Parliament managed to legislate for it in a most obscure fashion - probably intentionally. --Mais oui! 04:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] England and Wales

Wales did not play any part in forming the UK - the earliest signs of which can be traced no earlier than the Union of Crowns between Scotland and England. To say otherwise goes against the grain of both academic and lay thought on the matter. If the annexation of Wales into England is to be included then so should the annexation of the Northern Isles by Scotland, the Lordship of the Isles by Scotland, the creation and abolition of the Cornish Stannary Parliament, Northumbria officially becoming part of England under the Treaty of York etc etc. Seeing as the inclusion of Statute of Rhuddlan would mean the inclusion of the treaties which formed/were relevant only to the nations which THEN went on to form the UK you would also have to go back to Dal Riata and Pictavia which merged to form Scotland as well as the Heptarchy which preceeded the single Kingdom of England and so on, so forth. The two primary and only independent participants in the formation of the UK were England and Scotland - there is absolutely no controversy or ambiguity over this - and if earlier treaties specific to internal politics of either of those nations are to be included in the template then there are myriad others beyond these Anglo-Welsh ones which should also be included and this would simply be ridiculous. The only legitimate inclusion of Wales in the template would be under mention of its de-annexation from England in 1955 as shown in a template at the bottom of the talk page of the template as this was, unlike Rhuddlan, relevant to and occurred within the UK. (pasted from ealrier post on a seperate talk page) siarach 11:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with this edit. Wales is currently one of the main subnational entities in the UT. In this context, it is import to list the legislation that made that happen. Wales is not in the same category as Dal Riata, Pictavia, or the Heptarchy, which are entities that predated the current Home Nations (and whose annexation didn't involve any Acts of Parliament). My idea when I created this template was to list the legislative acts which formed the UK. --JW1805 (Talk) 01:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

And neither of the treaties you wish to add relating to Wales were legislative acts which formed the UK. Wales should certainly be mentioned with regard to its de-Annexation but having its annexation listed is precisely akin to listing to formation of Scotland from Dal Riata and Pictavia or England from the preceeding Heptarchy of English Kingdoms. While im dubious about the inclusion of the specific Anglo-Irish treaties pre Union of Crowns as well Ireland at least was a technically seperate entity to England and Scotland while Wales simply was not. As it stands this template is misnamed - as it lists acts,treaties etc which led to the formation of the England which went on to form the union with Scotland and THEN lists the acts which genuinely formed the UK. The fact that Wales has now been de-annexed and holds some sort of status as a nation within the UK equal to that of Scotland and England can in no way retrospectively confer nation status upon it pre-Union. Wales entered the union much as Yorkshire or Wessex or the Hebrides; a mere territory within a nation. siarach 10:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• The entities currently referred to as the Home Nations are England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. What this template does is list how those entities came together through legislative acts. (Someone added the Union of the Crowns....which I'm not sure really belongs here...). That's what the template is, no more, no less. It is completely reasonable to gather these acts into a template. The fact that the UK didn't exist in 1284 is irelevent. Yorkshire , Wessex and the Hebrides are sub-national entities, inclusion of all these in one template would not be practical, since there is no article about how Yorkshire became part of England, and most of these did not involve legislation. --JW1805 (Talk) 16:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What you want is a template for the history of the home nations within the British Isles (or something along those lines) - not one for the formation of the UK as this is not something which can be pinpointed any earlier than the union of crowns in 1603. ATM this template is very misleading,anglocentric/cymrocentric and contains several treaties without direct relevance with regard to the formation of the United Kingdom. siarach 17:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Welsh ones as these where part of the formation of the Kingdom of England and not the UK. --Barry talk 00:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly so although i fear we may need to resort to Wikipedia:Mediation Committee to solve the dispute over the inclusion of treaties relevant only to England and not Great Britain/United Kingdom. siarach 04:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If we are removing the personal unions involving Ireland and Wales, then we must remove that of Scotland too: only the political unions formed the UK, not the personal ones. --Mais oui! 04:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

RE Mas oui! - then so be it. It makes far more sense to start with 1707 - which saw the merging of the only two vaguely sovereign states in the British isles - than it does to start with the irrelevant treaties which formalised annexation of Wales to England. Even the union of Ireland, a puppet state/colony under English rule for centuries, is justifiable given its nominally/technically independent status prior to 1801 whereas the inclusion of Wales - at the time basically a part of England conquered centuries before any concept of a UK - simply cannot be justified within a template which claims to show the treaties which led directly to the formation of the United Kingdom. siarach 04:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree. The "union" of England and Wales (or whatever you call it) was not of the same ilk (whatever an ilk is) as that of England and Scotland, as evinced by the fact that England was still referred to as "England" afterwards and did not become "Britain" or even "England and Wales" until much later. Deb 17:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I totally reject the notion that the merging of England and Wales is irrelavent to the formation of the UK. How can you maintain that? England, Scotland, Wales, and N Ireland were once separate, now they are together. That is what is in the template. Maybe the title "Formation of the UK" is the problem? What would be a better name for these Acts, which clearly have a common thread, and it is entirely appropriate to list them together in some fashion. (Maybe Joining of the Home Nations of the United Kingdom?... seems too wordy).--JW1805 (Talk) 18:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

England annexing Wales has nothing to do with the formation of the UK it was mearly the Kingdom of England gaining territory you may as well include every single piece of legislation and treaties that added terriory to the England, Scotland Wales and Ireland, the only thing that formed the UK was the Act of Union 1707 --Barry talk 19:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree to an extent with both the previous posts by JW1805 and Barry. My problem with the listing of acts which predate 1603 and/or 1707 is mainly connected with the way this template is named and represented. As i previously stated the inclusion of the Anglo-Welsh specific acts ( which, again, as previously stated do not bear direct relevance to the formation of the UK) would be fine but not within a template which claims to mark the treaties which formed the UK. Wales being conquered and then formally annexed by England did not have any significant/direct role in forming the UK. The UK was formed by Scotland and England and technically, later on ( and i must stress the technically), by Ireland. Wales is by far the least signficant Home Nation in this regard and is without ANY direct link to the formation of the UK. If the Template was named Joining of the Home Nations of the United Kingdom or something similar then i would have absolutely no quible whatsoever and so perhaps a move to something along these lines is the answer to this dispute? siarach 00:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• What about Legislative History of the United Kingdom Home Nations ? Maybe a bit ambiguous? I'll think about it further...--JW1805 (Talk) 05:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

How about "Personal and legislative unions of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom". Rationale: "home nations" is primarily used in a sporting context, and, to my ears at least, just sounds a bit informal, unacademic, and even sloppy. Also, there are two very different types of union being shown here: monarchs taking rule over more than one country: Rhuddlan, Crown of Ireland Act and Union of the Crowns; and the uniting (or separation) of legislatures/legislature-making authority: the rest. The 1927 Act is neither of those, but I can understand why it is there. --Mais oui! 07:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)