Talk:UEFA Champions League 2006-07/Archive 2

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[edit] SCG <-> SER

I noticed the old discussion above but would like to note that it seems all the references given that the Serbia teams represent Serbia and Montenegro are coming from the FIFA trigramme in a table. It has taken some time, but UEFA has finally updated their site to reflect the status of the teams in question. I don't think too many assumptions should be made about what a trigramme in a table means, but bottom line is that the Football Association of Serbia and Montenegro does not currently exist, and UEFA officially has recognized the Football Association of Serbia. This is different than the previous World Cup as the football federation and FIFA all came to agreement that team would continue to represent SCG until after the World Cup. If there is a reference that explicitly states that in the 2006-2007 competitions that the SER teams will represent a non-existant federation and country, I don't know how one can make this conclusion.

Please see note the following pages on UEFA.com:

--Lowg 16:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This was already discussed and a compromise was reached above. The UEFA releases here and here are considered official. Why shouldn't we use UEFA's standards for the competition? The confusion of those clubs now playing in Serbia is resolved by the note, which you insist on deleting. - Pal 17:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I actually believe the note is incorrect as the links you provide do not state that UEFA is officially stating Red Star represents Serbia and Montenegro, have you considered that they have not updated the "SCG" trigramme on the site yet? They have just recently updated the teams pages. Even the FIFA site still refers to "SCG" while showing the first Euro 2008 qualifiying match that Serbia will have against Poland. The club and federation pages now reflect the correct football association, don't understand how one can infer so much based on a trigramme in a table. I will be willing to accept this inference if you can provide any source that states that all Serbia teams will represent Serbia and Montenegro throughout the 2006-2007 competions? There were many news sources that have reported during the World Cup that the Serbia and Montenegro team will continue to represent both countries, so I was assuming that it will be easy to find one source that backs up what your saying. I have made an honest effort to confirm your assumption but I could not find a single source that backs up what you are saying. Even forgeting the UEFA links I am providing that state the team represents Serbia, or the UEFA links you are providing that the team represents "SCG". How can team represent a non-existant country at the start of a competition? --Lowg 17:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
How can team represent a non-existant country at the start of a competition? The reason the team is here is because they finished first in the Serbia-Montenegrin league, not by virtue of their position as the best team in Serbia. (Yes, the latter follows on from the former, but in theory FK Zeta Golubovci could have won and then it would have looked like Serbia had no representative in this year's CL - which would be false, as Zeta Golubovci would represent both Serbia and Montenegro, as champions of both.) I sort of see your point that the trigramme isn't evidence, though - it could be that they just aren't bothering to change (it took a while to get YUG -> SCG, for example). Sam Vimes | Address me 19:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
(to Lowg) I'm not making assumptions, I'm merely suggesting that we keep this article accurate with what UEFA has released on the subject. You're the one making the assumption that the trigramme is wrong so you need to provide evidence that UEFA is mistaken in their own release. While it is possible that this is simply a case where UEFA hasn't gotten around to making the change, it's just as likely that UEFA means for the trigramme to refer to the country through which the team qualified, in this case SCG. Until anyone finds something definitive one way or the other, I say we stick with the only verifiable info we have, which are the UEFA releases with SCG. - Pal 21:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortuantely UEFA site is very inconsistant (as you can see in the UEFA links I have provided that contradict the UEFA links you have provided) but I can provide you with mainstream media coverage of the CL (see below). As a compromise I am ok with leaving the note but I would like to update the flags. --Lowg 21:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Our new FIFA trigramme is SER and we should use that.Stefanmg 14:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

  • ESPN.com (US) - "The Serbian double champions, bidding to reach the knockout stages of the Champions League for the first time, dominated possession but they were unable to make any inroads in the opening half an hour."
  • Guardian Unlimited (UK) - "Serbian champions Red Star Belgrade beat Cork City 3-0 in their Champions League second qualifying round second leg on Wednesday to set up a third round clash with AC Milan."
  • Toronoto Sun (Canada) - "The six-time European champions, which had been barred from Europe's top club competition because of the match-fixing scandal, will face either Ireland's Cork City or Serbia's Red Star Belgrade on Aug. 8 or 9."
  • RTE (Ireland) - "The Serbian league and cup winners took just two minutes and 23 seconds to ease into the comfort zone and take a two-goal aggregate advantage."
  • The Standard (Hong Kong) - "Milan will face Cork City of Ireland or former champion Red Star Belgrade of Serbia in the first leg of the third qualifying round next week."
The UEFA website is consistent on all of its releases concerning the CL and UEFA Cup: they use SCG. Of course the league page says Serbia since that is the country they represent this season, but that is irrelevant to what country they represent in European competitions (since teams qualified for these competitions last season when there was no Serbia). Also, external links are irrelevant; we're discussing UEFA standards here. Unless you can produce evidence that UEFA is wrong, I don't see the need to change the flag (doing so would be POV). Plus the note clearly explains the situation. - Pal 23:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you serious? I have produced a mountain of references refering to team's particpation in the Champions League qualification . These 'external links' irrelevant to you? Do "UEFA standards" state the best way to present encyclopedic content? Give me a break.
If you feel the note clearly explains the situation and I am not objecting to leaving the note, why do oppose changing the flag that reflects what country this club currently represents? I don't know what you think is POV about this when I provided these additional references. I don't know what other references you want, but I selected what I felt were obviously credible sources from around the world. Is this not 'evidence' enough for you? --Lowg 00:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Since this is a UEFA tournament, then yes, UEFA standards should be used for the sake of accuracy. A similar situation came up on a FIFA World Cup article. Most of the British press referred to the first round after the group stage as the "Second Round" while FIFA (and other press outlets) called it the "Round of 16". In cases where there's a discrepancy (like we're discussing) it's better to follow the standards of the entity that runs the event, otherwise you're going with what different people feel is best (like how you feel they should represent Serbia).
And I'm not saying your sources aren't credible, but rather irrelevant. Here one that says "SEM" (alternate abbreviation for SCG) from FIFA. Here's one from Yahoo! using Serbia & Montenegro. [1] Since we can both find credible external sources backing up our points, then what better way to resolve the issue than by referring to whatever the organizer of the event (UEFA) uses?
Perhaps as a compromise we could add another note at the top stating that the flags represent the country whose league the club was a member of at the time it qualified. - Pal 01:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What you are suggesting is not a compromise, we have a note right now in version you keep reverting to.
It is a fact that team gained it's entry from former the Serbia and Montenegro Football association (which the Football Association of Serbia is the successor by the way), and it is a fact that the team currently represents Serbia. You have not provided a single reference that explictly states that UEFA states that Red Star represents Serbia and Montenegro in this competition. You are just inferring that this is the case based on a trigrammes which you seem to love giving links to. I have provided many references that says FK Crvena Zvezda represents Serbia in this competion. At this point I feel you are just trolling on this issue and I am correcting the article. --Lowg 02:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It is up to you to prove UEFA wrong! If the trigrammes are wrong, prove it! You cited articles that say they represent SER, I cited counter articles that say SCG. You haven't proven that the trigrammes don't mean they represent SCG. - Pal 02:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
You have not cited a SINGLE ARTICLE that states that Red Star currently represents Serbia and Montenegro you have cited an article that use a the "SCG" trigramme which is still used on FIFA.com for Serbia team. Should we change the Serbia national football team article also based on your "articles"? --Lowg 02:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Try clicking the link I posted above. It lists the club as representing "Serbia and Montenegro". And just because I disagree, that's not trolling. I suggest you read up on Wikipedia's policies. - Pal 02:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Do you have an article that states Red Star currently represents Serbia and Montenegro? Every 'article' you post is a fixtures/schedules! --Lowg 02:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Give me a break. You know that the country listed next to them is the country they represent. What else could it be?
If you want to get technical, the articles you posted are inaccurate. There are no Serbian champions or Serbian cup champions yet. The federation hasn't even completed a season yet! - Pal 02:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I'm asking you to calm down a bit. Please stop reverting each other, or I will request protection of the article and short blocks for you (in case you break WP:3RR). I see that the issue with Serbian and Montenegrin clubs is a subject of arguments between us. Unless we can arrive at a solution, I think we can look for other way of settling this. I can think of holding a poll and asking users from football, Serbia, and Montenegro wikiprojects to give their opinion. I don't like the idea of opening an RFC, but we could qualify for WP:LAME :)

Let me summarise the previous discussion. The following options have been proposed:
  1. Display Flag of Montenegro for Zeta, Flag of Serbia for Serbian clubs
  2. Display Flag of Serbia and Montenegro for all clubs
  3. Display Flag of Serbia and Montenegro and Flag of Montenegro for Zeta, Flag of Serbia and Montenegro and Flag of Serbia for Serbian clubs
    Another possibility is to
  4. Display no flags

In all cases an explanatory notice is necessary, I suppose. Conscious 19:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poll

[edit] What we can agree on

Let me also summarise the facts. If you disagree with any of the statements, feel free to strike it out (don't remove) and provide a replacement if possible. Feel free to add relevant facts if I omit any. Conscious 20:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  1. Serbia&Montenegro doesn't exist anymore
  2. The Serbia&Montenegro association has been dissolved on 28 June 2006 [2]
  3. There are separate associations is Serbia and Montenegro now; the Serbian one is the legal successor to the Serbian-Montenegrin one
  4. Clubs used to be affiliated with the united association, now they are affiliated with either of two new associations
  5. The clubs participating in the European cups have qualified through the Serbia&Montenegro league
  6. Wikipedia articles should cite reliable sources
  7. Wikipedia articles do not have to be copies of these sources
  8. UEFA website has a page for Serbian association, but doesn't have a page for Montenegrin or Serbian-Montenegrin association
  9. UEFA website has pages for individual clubs; clubs from Serbia are listed as Serbian; clubs from Montenegro are listed as Serbian-Montenegrin
  10. In the fixtures lists at the UEFA website all clubs in question are listed as "SCG"

[edit] Option one

  • Display Flag of Montenegro for Zeta, Flag of Serbia for Serbian clubs
  1. My vote is option #1. I agree that is should be WP:LAME first of all :) I think my opinion is clearly stated but to re-emphasize, I think we should display Flag of Montenegro for clubs in Montenegro and Flag of Serbia for clubs in Serbia, with a note that teams qualified to the tournaments as members of the Football Assocation of Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it is very unencyclopedic to display a flag of a non-existant country in a current events article. --Lowg 19:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. Vote 1. Firstly, the arguments here are incredibly lame. I vote #1 mainly because #3 is clunky and anything else is blatently going to get "vandalised" to #1. There is no strong nationalistic reason for wanting #2, but there is for #1. I say let them have it and lets stop all this pointless arguing. I wouldn't notice either way that a few flags are one way or another for a bunch of teams that are probably going to get eliminated before the group stage. #1 makes everyone's life easier and happier. aLii 23:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  3. Vote 1. Although these clubs qualified as Serbia and Montenegro this country no longer exists, so it makes sense to use the flags of the countries that they are representing (i.e. Flag of Montenegro Montenegro and Flag of Serbia Serbia). Dan1980 15:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  4. The teams are no longer representing SCG in terms of disciplinary action, league coefficient points etc.. As such using SCG only tells us the minor historical fact of which legaue they qualified from, as opposed to which league they are representing. ed g2s • talk 20:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  5. Vote 1. I think that the fans are the most important part of any football club and I have being trying to put myself in their position. I think that once the split has happened the fans would clearly identify with the new separate countries. I also note that FK Crvena Zvezda have the Serbian flag as a link on their website. From now on, the teams would, I feel sure, regard themselves as representing their new countries. I think we have to go along with the realities. BlueValour 00:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  6. I prefer this option (for the reasons given above). Two flags is my second choice. Conscious 11:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  7. Vote 1I'M SERB AND I KNOW IT Stefanmg 14:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  8. Support. Regardless of the qualification process, as of now, these teams are the representatives of their new countries and they should be listed as such. We should stay in pair with the reality. --KPbIC 00:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Option two

  • Display Flag of Serbia and Montenegro for all clubs
  1. I go for option 2. They qualified as representatives of Serbia & Montenegro. It's a similar position to when East & West Germany merged, for the first season of merged competitions there was still UEFA representatives from East Germany, despite the country and the league not existing anymore. Next season, of course teams will represent either Serbia OR Montenegro. - fchd 20:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. My vote is Option 2 because thats the association it's really representing even though it's not in existance anymore. Kingjeff 20:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  3. I like 2 too. :) The concept is that they qualified by virtue of their play in the SCG league, not the SER league. Similar to Australia in the 2006 FIFA World Cup where they played as OFC representatives even though they've officialy moved to AFC before the start of the tournament. Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
    Funny... it looks to me like the Australian, rather than the Oceanic, flag was used on the World Cup page... aLii 17:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    And the Japanese flags is used for Japan, of course. But when there was a list of teams by confederations, Australia was listed under Oceania. Sam Vimes | Address me 18:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Australia were listed under OFC because the section emphasised the distribution of berths to different federations. At the World Cup, consideranly less importance is placed on the federation you are currently representing (for Australia it was AFC), the rest of Europe was hardly celebrating with Italy. For the Champions League, the country you are representing is much more important, which in this case is no longer SCG (not least because it doesn't exist). ed g2s • talk 20:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm sure FIFA will reconsider the berths for AFC and/or OFC based on Australia's move to AFC, just like UEFA will use the achievements of these clubs to decide berths for the country they will represent in future tournaments, I really can't understand why someone would agree with Australia's listing for OFC and disagree with Red Star's listing for SCG, as they are esentially the same thing. - MTC 06:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  4. Vote 2 As they qualified via the unified SCG league, they are representing Serbia and Montenegro this year, my second choice would be Option 3, just as long as the SCG flag is still there. - MTC 07:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    That is not true, any points earned will go towards their new federations' UEFA coefficients. ed g2s • talk 20:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Makes no difference to reasoning they are representing the league they qualified through, just like Australia representing Oceania in the 2006 World Cup - MTC 06:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  5. The first explanation here seals it. They are here by virtue of being champions of Serbia and Montenegro, not just Serbia, and the flag should reflect that. Sam Vimes | Address me 18:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  6. Changing vote - same reasoning as MTC. - Pal 22:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  7. I vote for this. A well-worded footnote should be enough to clear any mis-understanding. doktorb wordsdeeds 10:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  8. Derry City F.C. is currently representing the Republic of Ireland in the UEFA Cup despite the fact that they are based in Northern Ireland. This is a similar case - all UEFA coefficient points gained from clubs who qualified from the Serbia & Montenegro league will go towards the Serbian league's coefficient. That pretty much seals Zeta as representing the Serbian league for me. --Balerion 20:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm not sure that's true (points going to Serbia). Perhaps we should ask UEFA... ed g2s • talk 04:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    actually, Zeta doesn't get any points this year, only clubs in the Champions League and UEFA Cup get points, Zeta were only in the Intertoto Cup. - MTC 11:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  9. As this is based on what happened last year, and not on the present, I see no reason why their flags should not reflect how they qualified last year. Timotheus4 21:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  10. They qualified as SCG representatives, they should be listed as such. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Option three

  • Display Flag of Serbia and Montenegro and Flag of Montenegro for Zeta, Flag of Serbia and Montenegro and Flag of Serbia for Serbian clubs
  1. Second choice. Conscious 11:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. Second choice. - MTC 14:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

This might be an visually ugly option but at least it is clear when supplemented by a footnote. How can you spend so much time discussing this issue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.220.73.172 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Option four

  • Display no flags
    • No votes yet.

[edit] Option five

  • Display Flag of Serbia and Flag of Montenegro for all clubs
  1. Second choice--Lowg 14:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. If made into a hybrid flag (see below) then I'd support this as my second choice. aLii 11:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who the teams are representing

This basically comes down to whether we want to flags to represent where the teams qualified from, or who they are representing. Seeing as the former is historical, I would say the latter is more relevant to this page. Some here have said that they are still representing SCG, however this is not the case because (a) the federation no longer exists, (b) any progress they make in this competition will earn coefficient points for the new federations and (c) if one of the new federations was expelled from UEFA, only the teams of that nation would be barred. So in no official manner are they "representing" SCG. If you still think how they qualified is more important to this page that who they currently represent, then that is a different issue. ed g2s • talk 14:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

That's really the root of this dispute. I would say these teams represent the SCG federation even though they're earning points for their new federations. They are, after all, the final Serbia-Montenegrin champions, runners-up, cup winners, etc. That's perfectly logical to me. - Pal 22:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section continues

Lowg, Pal, can I assume that you support the idea of holding a poll and inviting other editors to participate? Conscious 20:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, and I've already encouraged others to join in on the Football Project page. - Pal 20:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The opinions are split nearly even. Would people indicate if they find some compromise solution acceptable? Conscious 08:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Option 3 is a compromise isn't it? Even though it would look a little ugly - MTC 10:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I see it as one, but may be there's a better solution... Conscious 13:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I think a flag represents country not a football federation. But if people think that flag should represent a football federation, another suggestion that came up was the use the flags of both countries, instead of a non-existant country. I will add this as an option.--Lowg 14:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding countries versus federations this is not the case. For UEFA articles, it has always been the case that the flags represent the federation of the club. That is why Derry City always has an Irish flag despite being from Northern Ireland (see here). Likewise, AS Monaco always has a French flag despite being from Monaco (see here). - Pal 15:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes also, for UEFA site, it has always been the case that the flags represent the country and federation of current countries and current federations, not non-existant countries and non-existant federations. Please see here for an example.Lowg 00:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Option One is still being used on the pages, even though Option Two was voted the better option. If I change the flags myself it will probably start another edit war, so is anything going to be done about this? - MTC 06:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another compromise suggestion

Another possible compromise would be to create split flags, like Image:European-Austrian flag hybrid.svg or Image:United Kingdom-England flag hybrid.svg, and use those for this one special occasion to signify they qualified as part of Flag of Serbia and Montenegro Serbia and Montenegro, but now represent Flag of Serbia Serbia and Flag of Montenegro Montenegro. I think this would be a very good compromise, actually. —Nightstallion (?) 19:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a better compromise than using two flags which would look really ugly, but I think that split flags would still not be very pretty. I think we are better trying to reach an agreement on using a single flag. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 07:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Add it as an option and see if anyone votes for it. Although in my opinion this is the worst suggestion yet. - MTC 07:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

To stop the edit war. It's not a significant issue, as long as there is a footnote. ed g2s • talk 20:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The article has been unprotected to allow the article to remain up to date. A conclusion should be taken from the poll, say 1 week from now (20:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)). Until that date, any changes to the flags of Serbian clubs will be considered disruptive. ed g2s • talk 20:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes during page protection

Completely seperately from the SCG thing: The UEFA website lists the 3rd Qualifying Round game Slovan Liberec v Spartak Moscow this way around, not the way it is shown on the current Wikipedia page, they need swapping - MTC 10:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Sam Vimes | Address me 10:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Another small update: UEFA has decided that "no European competition matches can be played in Israel until further notice". [3] --KPbIC 02:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The FC København-link, should be edited to the new "name" F.C. Copenhagen. kalaha 15:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

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