Talk:Tyzenhaus Palace

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Dear DeirYassin, I could've asked you the same question: why do you keep Lithuanising all names? :) Antoni Tyzenhauz was a Polish noble of German ancestry, I have yet to see a proof that he spoke Lithuanian at all and that he was using a Lithuanised name himself. Same goes for Giuseppe di Sacco (sometimes known as Giuseppe de Sacco) who was 100% Italian and I doubt he used Lithuanian at all. Same goes for Martin Knakfus, who was a 100% German. Halibutt 09:54, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I did not lituanised some of mentioned names, just written incorrectly (Giuseppe de Saco lituanisation would be Džiuzepė de Sakas). I only write Lithuanian names for people who originates from Lithuania. However because Polish langauge was more used in the commonwealth, written forms would have been polonised, same as e.g. they would have been written in cyrillic during Russian occupation. But that does not means original names/surnames of people of those times were Polish and/or cyrillic. I agree that many counts were Polish though so maybe they can stay with Polish names. DeirYassin 10:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

So, according to your logic it's irrelevant what your name is, wqhat is important is your place of origin? Strange. So a Pole born in Lithuania should have his name Lithuanised? If I were born in Kaunas, my nick should be properly changed to Halibuttas? Even more, if my grandpa was born in Russian empire, he should be mentioned in the wikipedia as Marian Adamovich Makhotskiy rather than under the name he used from his birth until his death? Strange, indeed. Halibutt 11:27, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I did not say so, I actually said vice versa, that despite of what language is dominant in the country, werether Polish or Russian in this case, the local name should be used. So of course Polish minority should and does uses Polish names. However according to your logic of polonising names of all people from commonwealth (because the main language was Polish then and therefore name sin document san dsuch were polonized), names of Polish minority should be lituanized, because well, now Lithuanian language is dominant in Lithuania. Taht would be illogical IMO. Also, according to your view it seems that Lithuanan language never existed prior to XX age, and all Lithuanians were supposedly in fact Poles. DeirYassin 11:34, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

No, you got the wrong impression. As to the Lithuanian language, it was in constant usage from the middle ages until now (with a serious decline in 19th century, but it regained its position). However, its usage outside of Samogitia has always been very limited (if any). And even there the higher classes quickly got Ruthenised and Polonised. If it wasn't for the huge reconstruction effort and the national revival in late 19th century (to which we all owe respect, it was a huge work of a bunch of fanatics), the language would still be limited to villages in Samogitia.

As to the local names - I don't believe this is the case. I understand that the rules of wikipedia suggest that we used the names the people in question were using themselves, regardless of the reason. So, if a person was using a Lithuanian name but was living in Poland, his or hers Lithuanian name should be used, even if he or she lived in Southern Africa or Vietnam. Halibutt 11:46, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

It is not true, because do you mean that Sudovian, Dzukian and Aukstaitian dialects appeared out of nowhere? If it would be true, all Lithuanians would speak Samogitian language. The fact is that Baltic tribes lived in even greater territories once. As for Lithuanians, up till the start of slavinisation they were living in larger territory (though not by much) too. Also, in Lithuania Minor too which was germanised later. Vilnius, Trakai were Lithuanian cities, but later they were both polonised cause of being main centers, and therefore places of nobles and eventually "burgers" learning the language too. As for name used by persons, well if I'd live in Poland I'd need to write my name differently in official documents probably, as my name contains Lithuanian characters; same if I'd live in South Africa or Vietnam; but that wouldnt make that name my official name. Same as if e.g. under Imperial Russian occupation when Latin script was banned we wouldn't write in brackets names of people who lived back then in cyrilli as "official". DeirYassin 12:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Also please note that the tradition of leaving the name the same in other languages arised only recently as I understand; previously one would have changed name as it would be spelled in other language, or if it was Christian name, used local variant of that Christian name. DeirYassin 12:06, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I must admit that it's the first time I hear of translation of names of people by the people themselves. Perhaps in the Middle Ages, but aferwards? All right, the first names at times are translated to make it easier for the foreigners to pronounce it. But surnames? I doubt it. If you lived in Poland, and would need your name to be put in some official documents, it would be put with correct diacritics, since that was one of the points of the Polish-Lithuanian minority treaty of late 1990's. However, if you lived in some other state your name would be rendered correctly, only without diacrites. I doubt the foreigners would add their own suffixes to your name (which is quite common in todays Lithuania, as one may see from your edits). Halibutt 12:41, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

It seems however that in Poland name is changed too at least in common use, as when we talked about Armia Krajowa someone gave me link to an article where e.g. proffessor Garšva was spelled as Garszva (and also last letter was variated according to Polish cases probably). I will not write Kvašnievskis in article instead of Kwaszniewski, but medieval Lithuanians are other case. DeirYassin 13:19, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the name, perhaps it was simply misspelt, I have no idea. Is he a Polish Lithuanian?

Anyway, I don't know much about Mediaeval Lithuanians much either. On the other hand this was the case of 18th century Germans, Poles and Italians, not mediaeval Lithuanians. :) BTW, thanks for the maps, I'll have a look at them once I arrive home. Halibutt 13:50, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:AptwSvlMtZkJ:www.msz.gov.pl/file_libraries/44/5471/SERW20.doc+Garszva&hl=lt - link here, he is nowadays' Lithuanian. And you're welcome as for maps.

[edit] Palace/House

I remember seeing this building when I was in Vilnius. It is somewhat ran down by now, and as many palaces inside city limits it was turned into an apartment block during Soviet era, but the official designation of it is still palace, this is how the building is mentioned in the tourist books and other materials (such as registry of architectural landmarks). This is because it was built as a palace of a wealthy Tyzenhaus family and so the name stuck. Thus I renamed an article by the name the building is most commonly known by. Alcatel 16:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)