Talk:Ty Cobb
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[edit] Good article failure
Ty Cobb was recently nominated to be promoted to good article status, but has unfortunately failed. Reasons for failing GA:
- Lack of references
- NO use of inline citation
- And all but two of the pictures don't have the right tags
Good text, but these areas are way too sloppy to let it slide, fix it and renom please Highway 10:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
2nd time around: The image tags look pretty good to me, but the inline citations are really a killer for me, especially when the article claims that another authors work was filled with "half-truths and misinformation" and doesn't offer a single source or stitch of evidence as to how.
References and inline citations are needed, there are in fact a number of claims tagged that have not yet been addressed. There would be a good place to start.TonyJoe 21:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- I recently went through all the references and updated them to use the same format. I also removed any references there were not reliable. Think the article is ready for another GA run?--Roswell native 20:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
This page is pretty much identical to http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/cobbty/default.htm
Does anyone have any right to reproduce it here??
The similarities must have been removed; all I'm seeing today (1/22/2002) are the stats. - RjLesch
- Ahh yes, that was me -- GWO
-
"...that his co-biographer Al Stump wrote posthumously..."
How can someone write after they are dead?
[edit] Ty Cobb bio
The bio states Cobb was the first man elected to the United States Baseball Hall of Fame. It's actually the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Also, he was not the first man elected. Five players were elected at the same time (1936), and Cobb had the most votes.
How was he the "first"? Just because he got the most votes doesn't mean he was the first elected. According to the Baseball Hall of Fame he wasn't the first elected. If anyone wants to verify contact the HOF
He is said to be "the first man elected into the HOF" because he got the most votes in the first election ever to the HOF. It's more a honorific title than a literal one.
The bio also stated that Cobb had a .666 batting average but http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=112431&HS=True and http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/Cobb_Ty.htm states it was actually .667.
[edit] Stump, the author
Cobb was a competitor and had faults, but he also had other compensating qualities, which Stump down played. My opinion is that Stump did a hatchet job.
- Maybe, but Cobb's insufferable personality was well-documented by many of his own contemporaries, and the fact that so few bothered to go to his funeral says a lot. I once asked my grandfather, who was a huge baseball fan, what he thought of Ty Cobb. He said, "I always liked him as a player." Off the field was another story. Wahkeenah 01:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- Cobb was a superb player but a thoroughly despicable human being. Over a batting title, the Tigers sent congratulations to the other guy... Trekphiler 05:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
-
- I'm getting a vision of Daffy Duck meeting Ty Cobb and saying (or spraying) his famous line, "You're dethpicable!" Wahkeenah 05:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Violence
Isn't there something about him having killed a black man, and being acquitted? And if so, shouldn't this be in the entry? DS 01:11, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- No, he did kill a man once but he was not black, and he was actually trying to rob Cobb. He did get into fights with some black men, and I've read that he assaulted a black woman working in a hotel once.
[edit] racist
The term racist always comes up when talking about Cobb. People have to remember this man was born in Georgia. His father lived during the Civil War. Cobb admired his father greatly. So if he seemed racist it shouldn't be too surprising. I'm sure many Southern Gentleman were considered racist at that time in history. You have to remember Cobb endured much harassment and prejudice when he join the Detroit Tigers. A young man from the south who was trying to break in the line-up in 1905. Cobb ended up having a nervous-breakdown his first year.
Thats true, but it is an unfortunate part of Cobb's life and image, and it deserves mention.
There is no question Cobb was a racist where minorities were concerned. However, he wasn't all that fond of white people either, least of all Yankees (Babe Ruth and otherwise). He got into an infamous and one-sided fist-fight with a handicapped New York fan in the stands who made the mistake of calling him a "half-n*gger". Wahkeenah 00:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
The question is, was Cobb more racist than his early 20th Century contemporaries, or other ballplayers from that era? If so, then it belongs in the article, but if not, then racism needs to be mentioned for every ballplayer.
- "(even supposedly shunning Babe Ruth for his allegedly black facial characteristics)"
Seems a little tacky to me, especially for something in the first paragraph of the article. In fact,I don't think parenthetical items should be one of the first things we read in an article. --AlanzoB 00:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I think some of the article may try a bit too hard to paint Cobb in a favorable light. For example, it includes a remark sort of favoring integration of baseball (as long as the black players are polite). But because the statement was undated and appeared in the article between discussion of events occuring in 1910 and 1912, it would suggest to readers that Cobb favored integration in the 1910s and thus was ahead of his time. In fact, those remarks came in 1952 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=480633&postcount=71) after several teams had already integrated. I edited it to reflect that. I also the phrase "outspoken proponent" should be applied to someone leading the charge rather than praising integration in a couple of newspaper interviews. --JamesAM 04:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Stats
To mention Cobb's record for one team, the Tigers, significantly understates his accomplishments -- he's arguably the greatest of all time, not merely in Tiger history.
Better to say, As of 1970, 42 years after he retired, Cobb was first among all players ever in Batting Average, Runs, Hits, Stolen Bases, At Bats, and Games played. Since then, different players have broken different records. Here is how Cobb now stands:
Batting Avg - 1st Runs - 2nd Hits - 2nd Doubles - 4th Triples - 2nd RBI - 6th Stolen bases - 3rd At Bats - 5th
- The arguments about who was better, Cobb or Ruth, have been going on for generations. Obviously, Cobb never won a championship while Ruth won several. They were both huge drawing cards. They were both well-paid. Cobb, in particular, was notorious for holding out for more money. But did Cobb change the nature of the game, the way Ruth did, or did he merely take the existing "inside" game to another level? And a number of his own contemporaries regarded Honus Wagner as the superior overall player to Cobb. Some of that might be bias because Cobb spread so much ill will wherever he went. Which also raises the question, did Cobb hurt his own teams as much or more than he helped them? Wahkeenah 00:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You are correct that Cobb took the existing game to another level... while Ruth changed the game all together... I doubt anyone would deny that.. but I'm not sure that is a knock on Cobb either, he played the way he played and did not change even after the Ruth era began. Alot of people hated Cobb, but by their stats I doubt one could say Wagner was better... though he may have been a better defensive player. As far as the Championships, I think Championships are more of a team effort than a individual effort, Ruth played for better teams than Cobb did, hence he was able to win Championships. Cobb did not do to badly in the three World Series he played in either. In his first he did, but he was a young player. In his second he hit .368, leading the team. In his third he had a low average in the .230's, but he also hit more RBI's than anyone else on the Tigers team for that World Series. Cobb did not necessarily enhance his game in the World Series the way a Jordan would in the Finals, but Cobb did not completely fold either. I personally would rank Ruth higher though, because Ruth was a HOF candidate as a pitcher, and as far as hitting goes I feel that he and Cobb were equals. I'd probably rank Cobb #2 behind Ruth all time.
[edit] More Copyright Violation
Re: the section about the death of Ty's father. A lot of this is stolen from here: http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00014142.html GWO (Yes, the same one from 2002 up there)
- Took care of it. Gorrister 12:58, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Update his stats so I know where he stands now among the all-time greats.
And is it true he sharpened his spikes?
[edit] Personel life
This page has no importance to me because it does no tell me, in details, about Ty Cobbs youth. I would certainly hope that somebody else out there has the same thinking.
[edit] stat change
To my understanding, Ty Cobb's legendary hit total was changed in 1995. It was a shock when I first saw the new number because I stopped following baseball between 1990 or so and 1997, and I never knew why this was. Then I came across the story:
"Although Lajoie led the AL in batting twice more, hitting .355 in 1903 and .381 in 1904, the race he lost to Ty Cobb in 1910 is a piece of baseball legend. The 1910 batting title was hotly contested, with a Chalmers automobile to go to the leading batter. Most of the baseball world rooted for the popular Lajoie and against the hotheaded Cobb, who had won the three previous titles. On the final day of the season, Lajoie bunted for seven infield hits and swung for a triple in a doubleheader at St. Louis. St. Louis manager Jack O'Connor was ultimately fired when it was revealed that he had ordered his third baseman to play deep against Lajoie. Lajoie finished second by a point despite the machinations but received an auto anyway. Later historical research by The Sporting News revealed Lajoie 's .384 average actually should have won the title. Cobb's official average of .385 was inflated because one of his games was inadvertently counted twice. In a dispute that rose to the highest baseball levels, Commissioner Bowie Kuhn ruled in 1981 that the mistake would not be corrected."
Obviously that has since been reversed and Cobb now has new career stats. Should this story be included in the article? It may seem trivial, but given the importance of the records involved (one of which he still holds, the other he held for so long), I think it has weight.
- I think it would be nice to mention when the hit total was changed, and who it was who discovered it. Funnyhat 17:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Second Marriage
- The "Second Marriage" section leads off with the following statement "At 62, Cobb remarried. The bride was 40-year-old Frances Cass. This marriage also failed, and she later filed for divorce. She felt that he was simply too difficult to get along with when he was drunk. However, Cobb counter filed and won the suit." First, it might be useful to give some idea of how long after marriage she filed for divorce. But more importantly, the problem with this statement is that I have no idea what it implies. Divorce laws are nowadays quite different from what they were and this could use some explanation; that is to say, what does it matter who filed and who counterfiles and who won and what the consequences of winning or losing were. Hi There 15:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] First pro athlete in movies...?
Cobb was not the first. For example, fellow baseball star Christy Mathewson had already appeared in three movies in 1913-1915. Heavyweight boxing champion "Gentleman" Jim Corbett had multiple credits. If you consider auto racing a sport, Barney Oldfield had also starred in multiple films. There are other examples.
[edit] POV?
This whole page is an overly favourable worship of Ty Cobb. Not anywhere are his infamous acts of violence and humiliation owards people of black descent mentioned. Wikipedia is supposed to be a balanced source of information, not a piece of one sided hero worship of a man of appalling character who happened to do well at baseball.
- Provided that you adhere to these guidlines: neutral point of view, verifiability, and can cite reliable sources, you're welcome to edit the article yourself. I recommend discussing your changes on this talk page, first, but baldfaced complaining accomplishes little when the solution is right at your fingertips. Thanks.
[edit] Naps?
From the article: "Very near the end of the season, Cobb’s Tigers had a long series against Jackson and the Naps." .. who are the Naps? --Mike Schiraldi 20:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The naps were/are the Indians. They were given that nickname because of Napoleon Lajoie.Tecmobowl 20:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Move the Al Stump Section?
Should the Al Stump section be moved to a new page specifically about Al Stump? Although I don't know much about him, he was a very famous writer. Perhaps he deserves his own page. Just a thought. --Tecmobowl 22:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removing un-sourced content
Per Wp:cite#Tagging_unsourced_material, I'm removing all of the un-sourced material. If anyone has a source, please feel free to add some content back. I will remove everything from the meat of the article. The intro needs to be re-written. If i don't do that tonight, i will leave the un-sourced material until that time. // Tecmobowl 05:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA on hold
After reviewing the article according to the GA criteria I have decided to put the article on hold until some things are fixed. Most of these are easy to fix and shouldn't take too long. Adding the inline citations will probably take more time, but are the most important in me passing the article. Some of them are simply statistics which should be easy to find.
Add wikilinks or further clarify: silhouette, batting average (somewhere early in the article for readers who don't know what it means), hazing, American League pennant, bunt, shenanigans, umpire, heckler, nigger, strike, sandlot, brain tumor, will, & scholarships.Fixed all mentioned and numerous more. Let me know if I missed any."William Cobb suspected his wife of infidelity, and was sneaking past his own bedroom window to catch her in the act; she only saw the silhouette of what she presumed to be an intruder, and, acting in self-defense, shot and killed her husband." It would probably be best to break this up into two statements.Completely rewrote the last part of this paragraph - please see if this addresses the issue.Is Spring Training capitalized? If it is, leave it. If not, fix it.- You are correct, "spring training" is not capitalized. I also wikified it as there is an entry for it.There appears to be a hard return between the fourth and fifth paragraphs in the Early years section that should be removed.Spacing issue appears to be a result of the quote box and the image proximity. Another editor has worked on it to make it less obvious, but the space still is noticeable."It was also in 1909 that Charles M. Conlon snapped his famous photograph of a grimacing Ty Cobb sliding into third base amid a cloud of dirt, which visually captured the grit and ferocity of Cobb's playing style." This statement mentions a photo, if you can, add it to the article. It may be available for free use since it was taken in 1909."Perhaps what angered him the most about Ruth was that despite Ruth's total disregard for his physical condition and traditional baseball, he was still an overwhelming success and brought fans to the ballparks in record numbers to see him set his own records." Don't user perhaps, this sounds like OR.Rewrote beginning of sentence to begin "In spite of Ruth's total diregard...."Misspelled: yougest -> youngest (last paragraph in the 1915-1921 section),"Universally disliked (even by the members of his own team) but a legendary player, Cobb's management style left a lot to be desired. He expected as much from his players as he gave, and most of the men did not meet his standard." This sounds a little POV, try rewording it a little better, and it should probably be standards.Rewrite done, let me know how it looks."Leonard was unable to convince either Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis or the public that the two had done anything for which they deserved to be kicked out of baseball." Incorporate this sentence into the paragraph above or below it, or expand upon it.Expanded this section and cited it. Please check additional text for any other problems.- "
This marriage also failed as she later filed for divorce. She felt that he was simply too difficult to get along with when he was drunk. However, Cobb counter filed and won the suit." These statements could use cleanup and inline citations; also, what suit?Cited refs for his marriage and subsequent divorce. Could not find any details around the actual divorce so I removed the last two sentences. "He, like everyone else, found Cobb difficult at best, and impossible at worst." Reword this statement to be more encyclopedic.In trying to research this to find an actual McCallum quote, I decided to remove completely as there isn't a reliable source that backs up this sentiment. I did add more info around the actula book and supplied refs to the book itself and a review in the New York Times of the book. Hope this is acceptable."Publicly, however, Cobb claimed not to have any regrets: "I've been lucky. I have no right to be regretful of what I did" .[39]" Fix spacing of the period."At the time of his death. Cobb's estate was reported to be worth at least US$11,780,000 - $10 million worth of General Electric stock and $1.78 million in Coke stock. [43]" Move inline citation directly after the period.For the image of the baseball card, add a description under the card explaining what it is (year, team, etc.)
Add inline citations for:
He then went to try out for the Anniston Steelers of the semi-pro Tennessee-Alabama League, with his father's stern admonition still ringing in his ears: "Don't come home a failure."He would never hit below that mark again.In one notable 1907 game, Cobb reached first, stole second, stole third, and then stole home on consecutive attempts.By the time he died, he owned three bottling plants, in Santa Maria, California; Twin Falls, Idaho; and Bend, Oregon; and owned over 20,000 shares of stock.After some wrangling, American League president Ban Johnson declared all batting averages official, with Cobb seemingly hanging on to win, .3850687 to .3840947.The Chalmers people, however, decided to award an automobile to both Cobb and Lajoie.The commissioner's committee voted unanimously to leave the numbers unchanged, but this ruling has typically been ignored by the game's statisticians.Completely rewrote this section, and added several additional refs. Please recheck to see if this introduced any new issues.Cobb's dominance at the plate is suggested by this statistic: he struck out swinging only twice during the entire 1911 season.When onlookers shouted at Cobb to stop because the man had no hands, Cobb reportedly replied, "I don't care if he has no feet!"While Cobb preached ascetic self-denial, Ruth gorged on hot dogs, beer, and women.His 16 total bases set a new AL record.Cobb finally called it quits from a 22-year career as a Tiger in November 1926.With their careers largely overlapping, Ty Cobb faced Johnson more times than any other batter-pitcher matchup in baseball history.Rewrote to say they faced each other many times and moved claim of the most # of matchups to the talk page.Cobb retired a very rich and successful man. He spent his retirement pursuing his off-season activities of hunting, golfing and fishing, full-time. He also traveled extensively, both with and without his family. His other pastime was trading stocks and bonds, increasing his immense personal wealth."He always wanted us to work s hard as we could at anything we did," Cobb's son James told sportswriter Ira Berkow in 1969. "Just as he did."Moved from article to talk page in case some one is able to cite later.By then, Cobb drank and smoked heavily, and spent a great deal of time complaining about the collapse of baseball since the arrival of Ruth.cited and changed wording a bit to match source (replaced bit about Cobb with Modern players comment).It was on a hunting trip near his Lake Tahoe home that Cobb's long-range plans were going to be cut short, as he collapsed in pain and was diagnosed with prostate cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure and Bright's disease, a degenerative kidney disorder.removed unverifiable info and cited.He returned to his Lake Tahoe lodge with painkillers and bourbon to try to ease his constant pain.Moved from article to talk page in case some one is able to cite later.He checked into Emory Hospital for the last time in June 1961, bringing with him a paper bag with a million or so dollars in securities and his Luger pistol. (Also change a million or so to something like "about a million dollars in securities")added citation and added more specifics about the securities per the cited refernce. Also changed Luger to pistol and I haven't seen the gun make specified in some of the more reliable sources used so far.
Feel free to check the items off as you complete them, you have seven days to fix them all. When you are finished fixing these or if you have any questions please contact me on my talk page. --Nehrams2020 10:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Moving uncited quotes here until citation becomse available
At the suggestion of the GA reviewer, I am going to move several uncited quotes currently in the article to the talk page until a citation if found.
- Ty Cobb faced Johnson more times than any other batter-pitcher matchup in baseball history.
- "He always wanted us to work as hard as we could at anything we did," Cobb's son James told sportswriter Ira Berkow in 1969. "Just as he did."
- Cobb returned to his Lake Tahoe lodge with painkillers and bourbon to try to ease his constant pain.
--Roswell native 06:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] GA passed
I have passed this article according to the GA criteria. I am impressed with the amount of suggestions fixed and citations added in such a short period. The article is well-written and has plenty of images that help exhibit the material. Be sure to cite any new information that is added to help this article keep its high quality. Consider taking it to a peer review and then FAC. As a side note, the GAC currently has a backlog that could use experienced users' assistance. If you have the time, come review an article or two. Again, good work, the article looks great. --Nehrams2020 08:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Claude Lueker Incident
I read that Cobb was actually cheered by the crowd after he beat up Lueker and that his team came out of the dugout with bats in case he needed backup.
[edit] Only 2 "swinging" strikeouts in 1911
The article says, he struck out swinging only twice during the entire 1911 season, citing an article that supports it: http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/cobbty01.php The cited page says (at the bottom):
Sources used for the Ty Cobb Player Page: Ty Cobb: A Biography, by Dan Holmes; The Tiger Wore Spikes, by John McCallum; Interviews with Richard Bak and Marc Okkonen, Ty Cobb, by Charles Alexander.
While I appreciate that it's properly cited, I think it's doubtful enough to remove it:
- Strikeouts were not recorded in 1911 (see http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cobbty01.shtml )
- 2 strikeouts in his 591 at bats would be a AB/K ratio of 295 (to 1), the all-time record for a season, and by far the 20th century record (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ABpSO_season.shtml )
- It specifies swinging strikeouts, so arguably Cobb struck out more. But if he only struck out swinging twice, how many times did Cobb watch the third strike? 2? 5? 10? If we say 8, which I think is a lot, he'd have 10 total Ks, which means an AB/K ratio of 59.1, which would be approx. the 29th best season in the 20th century (see link above).
- For the years strikeouts were recorded (1913 and following):
- His career AB/K ratio was 21.1 (see bottom of his stat page, linked above)
- His AB/K ratio improved steadily (which I think is true of most players), not exceeding 20 until he was 31 years old, and not exceeding 30 until he was 36. In 1911 he was 24 years old.
- His best (nearly) full season was his last one (1927 - 134 G), 41.8 AB/K
I'm guessing the Baseball Page is repeating an unfounded rumor, and the evidence weighs heavily against the story. Next, I will provide statistical evidence of how many Cobbs can dance on a the head of a pin. :) Guanxi 02:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Good points. I have moved the quote here so other folks can refer to it and possibly cite other reliable sources to back up this claim, until then I agree that it does not belong in the article.--Roswell native 04:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Parking quote here about Only 2 "swinging" strikeouts in 1911
Cobb's dominance at the plate is suggested by this statistic: he struck out swinging only twice during the entire 1911 season.[1]
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