Talk:Two Knights Defense

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(12-01-06) Nigel Short recently played 8.Qf3 and obtained a good position (1-0); at first sight, black played strong moves but wasn't able to get enough play for the pawn. I think this line deserves more explanations. See the page for more details :

http://www.chesspublishing.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1158953544

Contents

[edit] Question

Is there anybody who could create the beginning of the articles on Estrin and the Max Lange Attack ?

--Eric Guez 14:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Question n°2

... and the same for Sveshnikov ?

--Eric Guez 14:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Table of Variations looks fishy

Every single line of the Two Knights ends in equality?! Says who? The idea that 4.Ng5 Bc5!? equalizes is particularly surprising. I thought Anand pretty much refuted it in a game against Beliavsky some years ago that began 5.Bxf7+! Ke7 6.Bd5! -- although Anand managed to lose. I also doubt the Fritz and Ulvestad lines equalize, and 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 is pretty fishy, although I'm not sure if it's been refuted outright. I doubt whether there's even a consensus among theoreticians that Black equalizes in the main line after 4.Ng5. Krakatoa 20:35, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Certainly not. The positional judgements need to be edited. They weren't there before, they are not there now. Feel free to edit appropriately... I have removed the "="s. Just stick your evaluation between the tags on the appropriate variation. I also think something is wrong with variation 6 -- not sure what was intended here. It also would be nice if the theory table had the complete main line at the top, with things like the Traxler as variations on it rather than vice versa. ThreeE20:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
  • My opinion is that we must be careful in assessing opening variations since the theory changes constantly. I have tried to tend to fairly vague assessments, but it's hard, since I have read that even the Lolli Attack, generally considered very good for White, is uncertain after a correspondence game a few years ago. I think for current evaluation of opening lines people will always want to go to ECO or other sources, and that wikipedia can better explain the possibilities rather than offer precise evaluations that are likely to be overturned in the future. Certainly we can continually update the articles as the theory changes, but I also think it would be interesting to do a historical look at opening theory. "In 1851 Bilguer's Handbuch said xxxxx, in yyyy the first version of Modern Chess Openings said zzzzz, and in 1999 Nunn's Chess Openings suggested wwwwww." Quale 01:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chess Opening Theory Table

I have a couple of concerns with the tabular presentation of the opening moves.

  1. The tables are an absolute bear to edit.
  2. The tables make it unclear which move is actually characteristic of the variation.

As to issue 2, it is possible in the text to specify which moves characterize the variation, but I think it shows that the theory tables at once give too little information and too much. In Ulvestadt's V. it is well known that 6.Bf1 is the correct reply, but people still do play 6.Bxb5? and that's still part of the variation.

I do like the clean look of the table, but I'm not sure it's the best presentation of the information for the wikipedia audience. If the Ruy Lopez article goes this direction it will need a major overhaul. The current presentation of the Ruy is far from perfect and I expect that it will improve as people have good ideas, but I don't know if a theory table will be the best way to go. Quale 01:45, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I tend to like the tables versus the listings we see elsewhere. Having said that, I do believe that most of the wikipedia entries for openings are tending towards to much analysis -- some of it original. I actually like this analysis, and the back and forth debate that you see on wikipedia. Since it does tend to be original research, I have created a Chess Opening Theory Wikibook, but I don't think most of the chess wikipedians are too warm for it yet. It is hard to imagine the effort of moving all of the analysis there though -- I'm not sure I would support that. Where appropriate, I have copied it (as time allows) and have tried to move the more detailed analysis there. I'd personally like to see a WCO in the spirit of NCO, ECO, and MCO. Suggestions are welcome... ThreeE 01:55, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I also agree that the table format takes more effort, but I think once you do it a few times, it's pretty easy. I guess I think the benefits outweigh the costs -- but probably more for intermediate and advanced chess players. ThreeE 01:58, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Quale has a point. Right now this table just gives main lines (e.g. Bf1! in the Ulvestad and Fritz, 5.Bxf7+! in the Wilkes-Barre). I don't know how, or if, the tables can really give useful guidance to readers. As we all know, NCO/ECO/MCO/BCO would spend several pages of small print on the Two Knights, with 200 or so footnotes. We can't very well do that here. On a more minor point, where do we put equals signs and such, and is there a way to make the symbols for "small advantage White," "large advantage Black," and so forth? Krakatoa 16:29, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Yeah -- put the evaluations between the td tags -- I took out the ='s that were there earlier. ThreeE 16:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ulvestad

Two different spellings, "Ulvestad" and "Ulvestadt", appeared in the article. I've changed it to the first throughout, which is the one I've seen elsewhere. If this is not correct please amend 213.249.135.36 17:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why 5.Bxf7+

Can someone tell me (or point me to a source that tells me) why white plays 5.Bxf7+ and not 5.Nxf7 it seems to me that Nxf7 wins black's rookAndrew zot 11:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+! white is in some danger of getting mated. Not that 5.Nxf7 isn't played, but if theory hasn't changed since I last looked at this (quite possible), black gets enough of an attack to ensure at least a draw by repetition, despite the loss of material.--OinkOink 07:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

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