Talk:Twelve Apostles

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The last sentance of the section "Later Christianizing apostles" troubles me. The section in whole: "A number of successful pioneering missionaries are known as Apostles. In this sense, in the traditional list below, the apostle first brought Christianity (or Arianism in the case of Ulfilas and the Goths) to a land. Or it may apply to the truly influential Christianizer, such as Patrick's mission to Ireland, where a few struggling Christian communities did already exist. The reader will soon think of more of the culture heroes." I don't really understand what the purpose of the sentence is. Whatever it is supposed to mean, the tone is also all wrong. The section and paragraph work without it. Suggesting deleting that sentance.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flambergius (talk • contribs).

In 'The Twelve Apostles', it is stated that the Gospel of John does not mention the number of Apostles. However, my translation, in John6:67, says, 'Then Jesus said to the Twelve...'. I do not like to edit the article because of my inferior knowledge, though I think that if it is the case that John does support the idea of Twelve Apostles, then the article should be edited. Does anybody have any information on this point?

That could just mean "Jesus said to the twelve guys that happened to be following him on tuesday, pretty much what he had said to the fourteen guys that were following him on monday". The key thing is that John doesnt appear to state Apostles=Twelve anywhere, or make any statement where this is a concrete requirement (e.g. "twelve houses, one for each apostle" - madeupexamples.com). Clinkophonist 23:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish converts to Christianity

There is insufficient evidence to say that all twelve apostles were "Jewish converts to Christianity", which must imply some kind of renunciation of Judaism (e.g. Paul's declaration that circumcision was unnecessary). I've removed the article from that category. Grover cleveland 07:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

They were all Jews. They all became Christians. Do you mean that some of them could have been agnostics and/or not followers of Judaism? ^rossnixon 10:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

What does "became Christians" mean, though? Not just "followed Jesus". The word "Christian" doesn't appear anywhere in the Gospels, and is first found in Acts 11:26 in the context of Paul's followers in Antioch and the circumcision controversy. The word "convert" surely implies some kind of rejection of Judaism as well as an acceptance of Christianity. There's no evidence that any of the twelve apostles other than Peter approved of the rejection of the traditional requirements of Judaism (circumcision, food laws) described in Acts 11. 14:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure there is. There's the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15, which had the agreement of "the apostles and elders, with the whole church" in verse 22. There's also the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve", in which circumcision is conspicuous by its absence. This article should certainly belong in the 'Jewish converts to Christianity' category. Wesley 17:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Identification of Judas as Thomas in the Gospel of John

Please cite chapter and verse in the Gospel of John where Thomas is called Judas. And in which edition of the Bible you found it. 83.227.152.132 17:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess the passage here about Thomas on Wikipedia is written confusingly: "Thomas (identified as also being called Judas and Didymus (John 20:24))". I didn't check John 20:24. This sentence should be changed if Thomas is not called Judas in John 20:24.Scottandrewhutchins 17:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for being inconsistent. I don't understand how I missed that line, I should have corrected that one too. But now I see 75.15.192.65 has fixed it. Thanks for your vigilance anyway. 83.227.152.132 19:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Beloved Apostle

Why are references to Mary Magdalene constantly removed from the Beloved disciple paragraph? Her being an apostle did not originate with Dan Brown.--Tomtom9041 18:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Because the Beloved Disciple talks to Mary Magdalene in John 20. So they can't be the same person. You have to also note the Jewish traditions regarding the role of women. The disciples were surprised when Jesus talked to a woman who was not a relative (Samaritan woman at the well). ^rossnixon 10:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect, read variuos versions in various bibles and none stated what you say. Which version are you using?

John 20:8 says Then the other disciple, who went to the tomb first, also went inside,and then he saw and believed.

Other does not translate into "beloved" does it?--Tomtom9041 14:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC) i used KJV,NKJV and NAB. et al --Tomtom9041 14:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC) Italics NKJV--Tomtom9041 14:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC) AND

John 20:1 state: Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early.

and also

John 20:2 states:Then she ran away and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved...

does this not imply two seperate people?--Tomtom9041 14:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC) seems to be open to interpretation doesn't it--Tomtom9041 14:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Or do they contradict each other?--Tomtom9041 15:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

In John 20:2, surely "the other disciple whom Jesus loved" would be the "beloved disciple", so here we clearly see Mary coming to this disciple and talking to him. In the next several verses, it's reasonable to assume that "the other disciple" refers to the same "other disciple whom Jesus loved" in verse 2. In verse 8, the other disciple is referred to as "he" indicating it's a man not a woman. And in verse 11, Peter and the other disciple have left, but Mary is still there. This isn't any feat of theological gymnastics, it's just reading the story at the simple level of a narrative to reasonably identify the characters. Wesley 16:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I should add, regarding Mary Magdalene's being an apostle, you are correct that that idea did not originate with Dan Brown. The Church has always called her an "apostle to the apostles," chiefly because of this passage in which she proclaims to the apostles the good news of Jesus' resurrection, and because of the role she later played in proclaiming the Gospel. But being an apostle and being the specific "beloved apostle" in the gospel of John are not the same thing. Wesley 16:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Reasonable to whom, pre-established traditions? Why is that a reasonable "assumption"? The way it is reason would seem to indicate two or more. Mary Magdalene is still believed by some to have been an apostle and also to be the "beloved" apostle. See Authorship of Johannine works.--68.32.11.74 17:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Mary Magdalene is presumed to be an apostle by several groups, and don't many Christians in Europe, esp France believe, the Charttrists etc.--Tomtom 00:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Pardon my possible ignorance of other Christian traditions, but what is a section on the beloved disciple doing in this article at all? He is never called an apostle, is he? Or are there traditions that call any gospel disciple an apostle? Rocksong 12:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Andronicus and Junia section of Twelve Apostles

The comments about Junia seem slanted heavily toward the belief that Junia was male and, in any event, not really an apostle. The consensus of recent scholarship, I believe, is that Junia was almost certainly female and, though the grammatical construction is ambiguous, very possibly an apostle. That was the view of John Chrysostom quite some time ago. Jim Lacey 19:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten the section so it's (hopefully) NPOV, pointing to the Junia article if people want to read a fuller discussion. Rocksong 00:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DESCRIPTION

what really is the definition of the word apostle

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.74.96.100 (talk) 22:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC).