User talk:Tsavage

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Apology for the edit conflict on Community Ag.! Hope I didn't mess you up. I didn't know you were still working on it. -Will try later. Pollinator 05:24, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Ain't this fun!)

Contents

[edit] Bestseller

I added the reference (Werther eau de cologne) on the bestseller talk page, as requested. Feel free to move it into the article proper if you feel it merits a note. Asav 13:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Delrina

Just wanted to thank you for your constructive criticism on this article. It didn't make it as a FAC, but will take some time to rework it and resubmit it again sometime in the future. Have added some comments to your reply if you are interested. Cheers! Captmondo 21:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Entree

At Organic food you wrote "marketing products like frozen entress and other convenience foods". Did you mean frozen starters or frozen main coarses? Entree means starter in non-US English, main course in US English. Reply not required - just clarify the article as you see fit, when or if you see fit. Jamesday 13:28, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Plant breeding

Hi, I like you additions to the plant breeding, another issue surrounding the decline in nutritional value of food the degradation of soil over that period(I'll look for some refs) which is more to do with farming techniques than breeding. Also could you include the details of the reference that you cited in the reference section of the article. Thanks--nixie 22:15, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for your work on Organic food articles...

I just noticed you created the article on Albert Howard, and generally do work on organic food articles - we need more of these, thanks for your contributions. Keep on keeping on! JesseW 20:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hollaback Girl will be featured

Unfortunately Layla will disappear before Cool most certainly does. I now see that "Cool", besides a specific national anthem is the only featured article on a song that does not relate to The Beatles somehow. So that's why you don't think "Cool" deserves to be in the list — because its impact won't last as long, because Gwen Stefani is not a worldwide icon, and because things in the music industry worked differently back then. Well let me tell you that there's a reason it made it to its status: because it is a well-written, descriptive, informative and COMPREHENSIVE article about the song. End of discussion.

Oh, and no offense intended. Just attempting to make my point clear. --Hollow Wilerding 01:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Douglas Corrigan FAC

Hi: I have expanded the Douglas Corrigan with the intent of addressing your comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Douglas Corrigan. Does it yet merit your support? —Theo (Talk) 20:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bjørn Lomborg

Could you please take a look at Talk:Bjørn Lomborg (sect. 32.3) and give your view on the issue? I'm trying to remove a lengthy quote that's ruining the article. Thanks. Sir Paul 22:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I like your style

Just thought you should know. - Ta bu shi da yu 10:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Céline Dion —again

Hi. Ive been trying to improve on the Céline Dion article, incorporating many of your suggestions. Could you take a look (please) and maybe offer advice and comments on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Céline Dion? Thanks in advance. Orane (t) (c) (e-mail) 04:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Your browser is causing some problems

I just caught your edit to Ido (talk · history · watch). You did a good job fixing up the spelling and grammar, but your browser also stripped out all non-ASCII characters from the page. This meant that all unusual letters, including IPA and interwiki links to Russian, Chinese and Japanese equivalent articles, were relaced with question marks. This means any page you edit with your current browser settings will be affected. Please could you do something about it! --Gareth Hughes 18:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

I didn't notice that heading issue on the sunset table... I appreciate you pointing it out :) Ta bu shi da yu 05:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I remember you ...

But I do not know where from. I remember seeing your name somewhere in articles where I have made contributions. I just came accross your name again in Raul's page where we discussed the quality of FA articles. I agree 100% with what you said. Cheers. --Anagnorisis 01:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chavez FAC

Hello. I've addressed all your specific and actionable objection points. Would you mind providing other examples? Thank you. Saravask 01:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

  • I've thoroughly copyedited the article. I'd appreciate a prompt response from you. Thank you again. Saravask 02:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

I didn't mean to be rude. I really appreciate some comments after such a long period of no critique. It is just that the FAC is getting close on to seven days old. This is about the time that Raul654 designates FAs. Again, I appreciate your input whichever way this turns out. Thanks again. Saravask 03:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Browser reloads

I just needed to suggest that, if you are checking the text, you should reload your web browser every few minutes. This is because I am continuing to de-uglify the prose (even while you read). I don't want you to spend valuable time commenting on old revisions of the text. I've had such problems too. Thanks. Regards, Saravask 03:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

We just finished the first round copyediting. It is now safe for you to examine. Thanks. Saravask 04:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Objection points

Hello again. I'd like to reiterate what you've stated your concerns are about the Chavez FAC:

  1. Awkward writing.
I addressed all the specific examples you provided. I also did an extensive copyedit to search out and revise all long sentences, sentences with awkward clause/phrase order, awkward syntax, awkward use of dashes, commas, and semicolons. Please notify me if you spot significant remaining examples.
  1. Excessive use of modifiers.
I remedied all examples you gave. In addition, I searched out mawkish or inappropriately toned modifiers. I toned down a significant number of phrases and words. I believe I got them all.
  1. Lack of clear distinction between recollections/facts in the "Childhood" section's Harvard citations.
I believe I've remedied this full stop. Please let me know if my solution may be improved upon still further.
  1. Revision of lead for clarity/background.
I've worked to address this. Again, please notify me if any aspects of the lead remain unsatisfactory.
  • I appreciate the work you've put into your comments. I am looking forward to your additional input. Thank you. Saravask 05:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Please, have you had a chance to examine the text yet? Thanks in advance. Saravask 14:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chavez FAC

This diff might help you in reviewing your vote. I have addressed all of your concerns, and I thus cannot find any other instances in the article where the points of objection still stand. Please raise the issue if other improvements (that I have missed) are needed. Thanks. Saravask 17:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Blues

We have commented your objections to blues FAC. We would appreciate some feedback. Thanks. Vb 12:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Classic Rock

Hello. I was wondering if you would like to participate in my classic rock survey. I'm trying to find the most like classic rock song. There is more information on my user page. Hope you participate! RENTASTRAWBERRY FOR LET? röck 02:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The West Wing FAC

Just wanted to apogolize for giving you the third degree in The West Wing FAC. Your points about production, distribution, and marketing are very valid. I've just had a tough time with the FAC and was upset to see another objector. I'm sorry again, and I'm looking up the information you requested as we speak! I hope that with your help we will achieve FA status and set the bar at a new level for television FAs! -Scm83x 05:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

We have added several new bits of information to the article concerning the points you were worried about. I hope that you will look them over and, finding them sufficient, will vote support on The West Wing FAC. Thank you so much! -Scm83x 18:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Delrina Article Re-Submitted as a FAC

Just thought I'd let you know! Revamped article: Delrina, with more info, clarifying some points and highlighting the Berkley Systems Inc. v Delrina case, and (hopefully) thoroughly copyedited. A valued your comments last time so wanted to give you another chance to look it over. Here's its listing on the FAC page. Cheers! Captmondo 18:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Celine Dion

This is probably a bother, but could you please take another look at the Céline Dion article. Ive taken the comments at the last FA and have tried to address them: Ive found many print sources, about 4 Books, more authoritative reviews:New york Times, Billboard.com, Los Angeles Times etc. Ive addressed her music, changes in sounds/genres, motivation etc. at the end of each sub-section, and Ive also added a "Image and Celebrity status" section at the bottom. Ive sent it to peer review for two days, but no reply. Comments would be appreciated. Thanks. Orane (t) (c) (e-mail) 02:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fixes (Hopefully) Made to Delrina FAC

Hello there. I've mentioned this on the respective FAC page for Delrina, but I believe I have addressed the issues that have been pointed by other users with regard to footnotes and references.

I appreciate your comments with regard citing the Hugo Chávez article as a reference for footnotes. It was odd to get a reference to an article that was not corporate in nature with a very different referencing system. As it turns out, a more direct and relevant reference probably would have been the Acorn Computers article, which was deemed to be of Feature Article quality in the past.

I guess my only real complaint about the FAC process in general is that it has become the de facto peer review, as people tend not to scrutinize articles in detail until they reach this area. Also, the inconsistent quality of comments -- such as the fellow who was tentatively objecting to the corporate template being there, which was a truly helpful and useful addition that came out of the peer review process. And yet if it stands, the article "falls".

And I realize that I blowing off steam at this point, but if this candidate article fails, I do not plan on resubmitting it as a possible FAC in the future. I think I spent less time justifying the finer points of my Masters thesis way back when! ;-)

Cheers! Captmondo 04:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] First Name

You're first name isn't Toby, is it? Jasmol 05:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, no. Ce n'est pas moi... --Tsavage 04:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia

I've responded to your questions about the article. Johnleemk | Talk 10:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Beethoven's Fifth

Hi—I'm very pleased to see your detailed objections to the renomination of this article; well done. Since I gave this one a drubbing first time around, I wanted to hold off. Really, doesn't Raul see that he's embarrassing himself? Apart from that, there's a potential conflict of interest involved; I think the process would be better if the judge distanced himself from it. (I might mention this on the page.)

I'm hoping that more WPians with critical/editing skills will hang around the FAC room to raise the standards of FAC and prevent signals being sent to all contributors that low standards are good enough (that's what happens when poor FA nominations succeed). Tony 03:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tony. Sorry I didn't reply earlier (see my explanation in the note to HasBeen, below; I'm writing my way upwards). Thanks for the support. You know what they say about sticking one's head above the crowd, "Take care you don't get it shot off." So, support is well-taken when you're feeling the breeze in your hair... ;)
And, yes, the FAC Director position is just too murky and unsettling. The current argument seems to be that the miracle of WP permits a "safe" suspension of disbelief and acceptance that a person can actually act like "just another editor" in some cases, while also being solely responsible for FA and TFA, and an AbCom member. That's bizarre, and the guidelines for FA->TFA are, as far as I've found, non-existent. Not to get too Classic Rock here, but it could seem like shades of, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."...?
After two months, I'm having a bit of trouble justifying to myself my time on FAC, given the results. Mainly, it's the FA->TFA connection that gets me... Oh, well. Being a squeaky wheel can be thankless, but it has its own rewards...hopefully, once in a while. Later on...! --Tsavage 18:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA Commercial Advertising?

Good Morning. I support the arguments you made in the CDion FA nomination, and would like to lend my support to any review procedure that you might become involved in over this issue. My name is apparently mud at the moment for AfDing a bunch of pop song entries that I considered to be blatant commercial advertising after finding Cool (Song) on page one, but it isn’t deterring me from commenting legitimately in FACs (yet…) I have brought this to the pump, but got heavily slapped down. Any suggestions? --HasBeen 08:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I had this idea that I'd stay out of..."backchannel" stuff relating to FAC, all the lobbying and whatnot that drives this place (not that that's anything but normal). In any case, I replied to Ta bu shi da yu below (Celine Dion), so, so much for that (but definitely no email, IM, IRC, ;)...
If you're interested, take a look at Wikipedia:Tomorrow's featured article/Proposal for improving TFA selection guidelines. It may address mutual concerns. I'd be interested in your comments... Later... --Tsavage 18:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Morning

Image:Hydnjo.JPG
Hate to wake you up so early but... we hobbits have to get things done ya know ... what do you mean when you say "good morning"... do you mean to say it's a "good morning" or do you wish me a "good morning"? --hydnjo talk 03:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Unfortunately(?), I'm not Tom. You guys do look mighty happy... With me, it's at times one or the other, sometimes both (I recently did a quiz that said I'm a "post-modernist", so maybe that explains it)... Nice to meet you! :) --Tsavage 17:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celine Dion article...

Heya Tsavage :-) I was wondering what we should do to get that Celine Dion article up to scratch. I guess what I'm asking is: at a bare minimum, what information about her music do we need to include in the article? Incidently, I have no axe to grind about this article (I'm not actually a fan), but I feel it would be a pity if User:Journalist, who spent a fair amount of effort on the article, wasn't made precisely aware of precisely what should be included. I think your suggestion has a great deal of merit, btw. That's why I'm going straight to the horses mouth!

I'm hoping we can all work together to get this up to scratch. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Ta bu shi da yu. You do seem quite "reasonable and level-headed" (famous last words? ;), so I'll reply. (I've been trying to keep out of "backchannel" stuff in relation to FAC, but I guess it's inevitable. I will, therefore, now also reply to Tony and HasBeen, above.)
Well, my objection about lack of a music section in Celine Dion still seems quite clear to me on the actionability scale. I don't have a precise format or template for such a section in mind, as in part, I imagine the information would somewhat vary by the artist (style of music, length of career, and so forth). I'd have to read it to strike. My objection expresses the general interpretation of FA criteria that, when looking up a singer in a thoroughly modern encyclopedia that is "comprehensive", one should be able to easily locate basic information about that subject's "tools of the trade". Here, that would include stuff like vocal range, training, stylistic quirks, evolution of singing voice over the years,... The examples, for Billie Holliday and The Edge, which were included, further clarify the point (perhaps a combination of both of those would be somewhat of a guideline). As it stands now, the CD article offers a biographical background, and an annotated discography (that relies mainly on pop media critics). That alone does not even address the "why" of her notability on any sort of technical level. It's like writing an article about a certain jet engine by only noting where it was built, who designed it, and what planes it was attached to, with no discussion of its design, its capabilities, its place in the world of jet engines... IOW, there is a "technical" side to most things, and that should be addressed as a matter of course. This, as I've noted, is simply what I consider a reasonable interpretation of the "great article" criteria for this topic. It can be dismissed procedurally, if the FAC Director finds it unreasonable...
As a side note, I'm curious as to how "helping Journalist" fits into your view of FAC. I'm all for being supportive, I work on actionability even when I think something should be quite clear as stated, and I have made changes to articles in FAC during their candidacy,. Still, I think there has to be a separation between FAC and generally being supportive and encouraging. Presumably, the FAC Director has left CD hanging so long so that things can maybe get worked out, but that is one person's interpretation of a much broader guideline. The FA criteria simply say the objections should be actionable, not that they're supposed to be fixed during the (one week) candidacy. That could equally be interpreted as a vetting mechanism to ensure valid objections, but not to encourage rewriting of articles on FAC. (I also noted this in my CD comments on FAC.) If FAC is to be not a sham, votes and opinions should be, for one, on a consistent (the same) version of an article, not one that has undergone dozens or hundreds of rushed edits, under pressure, serving (and often, byu) many editors, in a short period of time. That doesn't seem like a good way to promote quality, or even an efficient process... It's like asking you to sign a petition, with the caveat that the petition might be "reworded" above your signature. Being too "supportive" here therefore can (and, IMO, quite often does) become counterproductive.
A lot of this has, for me, to do with the FA->TFA connection. Holding FAs to the rigorous standards they claim is particularly important to me because these articles appear to many, many people on the front page. They should really be the best, not simply "almost there". At this stage of WP, with millions of dollars and probably the same in hours of labor going into it, we should be able to do better... Perhaps you'd like to glance at my fledgling TFA guideline proposal. (Well, there, I've crossed my line...) Sorry if I'm (at times :) a little WORDY: no passion, no interest, and I guess that's how I express it... --Tsavage 18:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liebig

I normally delete items listed as speedies on sight, and the actual content obviously wasn't worth keeping. However, in this case, although it's not an alternative spelling, Leibig is a plausible mispelling - I have a chem degree, and I have to think which way round the "i" and "e" are. The article creator obviously had the same problem, so in this case I thought it was worth keeping a redirect.

I certainly don't think it was wrong to list it, and if you want to do so again, I won't interfere, jimfbleak 06:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting article improvement

User:Gadget850 has started User talk:Gadget850/BSA article improvements as a step toward improving the BSA section of Wikipedia. Please visit this page and participate if you are interested or cross yourself out of the "Interested Wikipedians" if you are not interested. Thank you. Rlevse 18:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for your work on FAC!

For your efforts on WP:FAC and helping our FAs reach new levels of quality, I, User:Spangineer, award Tsavage the Barnstar of Diligence. Awesome work; keep it up! --Spangineer (háblame) 18:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
For your efforts on WP:FAC and helping our FAs reach new levels of quality, I, User:Spangineer, award Tsavage the Barnstar of Diligence. Awesome work; keep it up! --Spangineer (háblame) 18:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I know it's frustrating that your objections sometimes aren't taken seriously; it's happened to me too. But don't forget that your efforts have caused significant improvement in many different articles, and for that, Wikipedia is better off. Keep up the good work! --Spangineer (háblame) 18:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for helping with horticulture!

It's nice to get some comments on it... I'm not at all experienced in "advertising" a project on wiki. (Maybe I advertise here? Wikipedia:WikiProject_Horticulture_and_Gardening). I've historically been more of a web forum person, though I'm trying to get some friends from that end of the 'net to chip in! SB Johnny 16:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Céline Dion FAC

I know that you are frustrated with the passing of the article, as it seemed as if your objects were blatantly overlooked. I really dont know what to say...sorry maybe? Despite my "heatedness" over the matter, I actually respected your objection and how you have taken a sense of duty to the FAC process. I saw your question on the FAC director's page, and Im also curious about the answer.

However, my assertion that the article is "there" still stands, and I'm a bit happy that rough concensus was taken to promote the article. As much as there are some good voters, FAC nowadays are infiltrated with editors who are ignorant of manual of style and many other conventions and policies; people who just want to get a few edits in and be included in something. Many of them often take a "my way or the high way" attitude to their votes and suggestions, failing to arrive at compromises. People have different tastes, and as the policy states, there is no such thing as a perfect article. An article can always be improved, and "Celine Dion" will, but at its present state, it meets the FA criteria, and I believe thats why it was promoted. Im quite happy, as I was actually frustrated with the double standard people seemed to be taking to the article; it's on par with many other featured articles of the same nature. Sorry to be flooding you talk page like this. I have to go, but I will be on today at about 5-6 pm ET in case you want to continue. Orane (t) (c) (e) 15:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to comment

I've replied to your comment on my talk page. Sorry fo the delay, but I just got back from a 12-day trip. Raul654 04:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cheers

Please review you opposition for Cheers! I just went through Toasting Cheers, the best source of information for the show, and added a nice Production section including information on the crew. Please let me know what else you want! Staxringold 14:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for striking out your object. What comments (specifically) do you feel like I still need to add/work on (hopefully to garner your support). :) Staxringold 02:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bulbasaur FAC

Right, I think that's all of those points. This is what has happened to the article. Regards, --Celestianpower háblame 21:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to explain my comments yesterday on the FAC: I did not want to get drawn into a long drawn out point-counterpoint - you made my point, I made mine, and there was not much more to add. I did not write the article, although I have copyedited it a couple of times, and I am not bothered very much about its subject matter. However, as I have said, I do think it is good enough, and I see an undercurrent of objections which I find hard to understand. Assuming you accept that the article could be featured, it would be interesting to know what you think should be added or changed. Compare Spoo for example.
I also wanted to say that I do not agree with Celestianpower's latest comments: I have assumed all the way through - and it is entirely apparent to me from your other contributions to FAC - that you are motivated by the best of intentions: to make our articles as good as possible. As I have said before, your standards may well be higher than mine. That is not a bad thing; however, I see the standards set by FAC reviewers rising relentlessly, so articles that would have been featured 6 months or a year ago are dismissed without a second thought, but articles that were featured then stick around; and, all the time, less than one article in a thousand is featured, but many of the other 999 are "good" articles. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'm afraid that I stand by everything I've said so far. You have gone to 2 FACs currently and just totally ruined them. If I wasn't Admin Gen of Esperanza I'd both block you and call you all of the swear words under the Sun. You're objections are either lies or unactionable. You don't have the right to call the article "Mediocre, even crappy" when a teacher of English has given it the OK. He's much more qualified to object on these grounds as you are. If making me really upset and angry was your aim, you've certainly acheived it. --Celestianpower háblame 17:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Projectplace

Thanks for your help on the Projectplace article. Much better than the first entry I made that was just describing the service. --Zpeed 07:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chariot Racing FARC

Someone has added an intro to Chariot racing, could you take a look at the article and see if it still merits deletion? Andrew Levine 22:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dialogue

Just some advice: It might help if you avoid extended dialogue on Featured Article Candidates. I find it is better to get straight to the point, as people are less likely to read comments which go into the authors childhood, or habits of other editors, and so on. Thanks, --Colle|Image:locatecolle.gif|Talk-- 22:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Invasion

Hi. I've added a section on the applications of invasion strategy in terms of fourth generation warfare. (I've also cleaned up the fourth generation warfare article, and created new articles for the first,second, and third generations, since I don't like my articles linking to crappy stuff when I can help it).

I'm also planning to add the 2003 invasion of Iraq to the table, but I wanted to make sure that's in line with your suggestions before I do that. Some people initially objected to its inclusion, but they're not complaining anymore so, as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I've also responded to your other questions on the fac comment page.

Thanks for your feedback, and I hope the changes will help you decide to support the article. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free to let me know and I'll do my best to address them. Happy editing! Kafziel 01:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, we're still plugging along... I don't know how much I have left in me, but I've made some more changes to the article and addressed each of your comments on the fac comment page. In addition to your suggestions, I've also updated the footnotes to the new <ref> style and changed the table of invasion examples to prose format.
Thanks again for your feedback. I hope my changes are enough to at least cover your objections, if not garner your support. Kafziel 05:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FMP

Hi, I'd like to invite you to participate in the Wikipedia:Featured Music Project by signing up on the status page. What you'd do is sign up for one (or more) of eight categories, such as the discography or lead section. No more than once a month, you'd be given an article which is getting close to being ready for WP:FAC, and is only deficient in a few categories. You'd do what you can in your section (and, of course, anything else you like). If a couple of people specialize in each category, we should be able to take some concrete steps towards improvement on a wide range of articles. In addition, you can sign up as a "shepherd" to take articles that meet all the criteria through a peer review and (hopefully) successful candidacy. Tuf-Kat 04:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hormesis

Thanks for your comment on hormesis; I've no objection to reinstating the last deleted section, is there another way of flagging that they need references? I didn't mean to be non-constructive here, but I thought that it was important to keep this article in the scientific mainstream Gleng 23:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Que?

I've been noting your sniping at me for some time - what exactly is your role here - do you write pages? - advise on pages? or merely advise as you see fit on assorted subjects on which you have experience? I'm just curious. Giano | talk 21:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, I'm not sniping at you. That's not my intention. I only just recognize your username, from, I guess, FAC. Other than that, what? Thinking about it, I remember a minor exchange in one of the FAC reviews, something about hornets... Other than that, and my comment about your FARC noms, I can't recall any other exchange?
What do I do here? My contributions. You probably have to go back past the last 1,000 or more entries to get beyond my recent FAC stuff, Bulbasaur alone takes up a lot... What else? As indicated at the top of this page, I joined in Dec. 2003. Until last November, I paid no attention to all things WP, other than article editing. Then, after reading a TFA that I thought was not so good at all, I followed the links back to FAC, and that's been for the most part, my winter on WP, with side trips into FARC, stable versions discussion, AfD, and the related like... Oh, and I contribute mainly in the winter, because I farm the rest of the time... So, what's on your mind? --Tsavage 22:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Irresistibly butting in here, sorry about that. Tsavage, you seem surprised that anybody would take it personally to be called petulant, ridiculous, and silly. Might you have gotten into some counterproductive rhetorical habits? Because that way of leaping out at a stranger from the undergrowth, teeth and nails flashing, and then retracting the aggression with smilies and admissions of harshness, reminds me strongly of the way you responded to me on WP:FAC a while back.[1] (And this is where you scramble out of the wrong tree with egg on your face.:-)) Do you have a particular purpose with the practice, or is it just, well, habit? You do realize it's likely to piss people off...? Thickness of skin varies, no doubt, but I think most people dislike being greeted with a mouthful of hasty epithets. Bishonen | ノート 02:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC).
Bishonen: Is this, like, a pastime, tracking imagined slights and posting nasty comments to people's Talk pages? You've plucked a bit of dialog out of one discussion, which had its own context, attached it to another comment about a series of FARC noms so irregular they were removed and their subpages deleted, and come up with a "practice"? "...leaping out of the undergrowth, nails and teeth flashing"—what is that about? "Admissions of harsness"???!! Saying, "look, if that sounded harsh, it wasn't meant to be," is not an admission of harshness. I didn't "retract" a thing... Why are you here? To scold me? To initiate an attitude readjustment? My comment wasn't to Giano, it was about the series of protest nominations in FARC, that sucked me in (I read the first two before I figured out what was going on). If I criticize your writing, is that automatically a personal attack on you? Every objection in FAC is then a personal attack on the nominator? Such a thing as a "petulant comment" does not exist? I looked up Giano's comment to me in Beethoven's Fifth FAC II—"Obviously it's a hornet's nest here so I'll leave you in it to sting away." Now THAT's personal... And why are you citing stuff I wrote from other pages? What is the issue? If you think I've insulted someone, just say it in plain English, don't insult me in turn: "this is where you scramble out of the wrong tree with egg on your face"? And if you're gonna make cautionary comments like, "we also need to be careful about making FAC nominators jump through so many hoops they tire of taking their articles through FAC at all" in the FAC discussion page, in the midst of a bizarre Bulbasaur FAC II where I'm basically getting accused for weeks on end of doing exactly that, and I'm not sure who's who and how the whole thing "really" works, PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF MORE CLEARLY... (A smiley is far too blunt an instrument, I never had much use for them in the first place...) --Tsavage 04:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I have no interest in Bulbasaur - as one of my children grows out of that sort of thing sadly another grows into into it - but that is the extent of my knowledge of the subject so I won't comment on the value of your works there. As I recall the FAC you refer to was a complete hornet's nest with much stinging - so me jumping out to leave others still there and stinging away was directed at no-one in general. When riled I can be a very angry hornet indeed, and when I wish to insult believe me I can do better than that - trust me.

Your sniping, the specific incident I refer to is here [2] The adjectives you use are particularly untrue. Matthew Brettingham's FARC was/is (I count no chickens yet!) going well, so I had no reason to be in you words "entirely petulant and ridiculous" and ".....a cheap form of re-validation ". I was making what I and many others feel is a valid statement. If Matthew brettingham was worthy of an FARC then so were the other however many pages in similar, that's not petulance but stating a fact. A fact that seems to rather indigestible to many on this encyclopedia. Confusion seems to be all around us take for instance this comment here [3] made since our altercation. The comment has been admirably refuted but the confusion remains.

You attitude above to Bishonen is sad, she merely points out to you that perhaps on occasions your choice of word are less than judicious, and yet you seem to be attacking her for having the temerity to say it. Someone less charitable than myself may think that is a demonstration of petulance and cheap rhetoric. Bishonen is not just one of the most fair and busy admins on the site, but a rarity a valued contributing editor and creator of articles as well. You would do well to remember that. Giano | talk 18:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[Very kind, Giano.] Aha, tunnel vision. You were in the midst of the FAC of something called Bulbasaur, therefore we were all "in the midst of a bizzarre Bulbasaur FAC", and if I'm going to comment on something in a totally different nomination, then I need to check out all the FAC discussions to see if you're being accused of something somewhere and [shout] EXPLAIN MYSELF CLEARLY so it doesn't accidentally sound like I'm talking about you...? OK, that's obviously gonna make it a lot more cumbersome to comment on talk FAC, but you know what? I actually don't mind, because I'm so pleased to unexpectedly learn what your beef was that time. You thought I was sneakily referring to you. I'm sorry it sounded like it. I wasn't. For the record, I had no idea you were being accused of things in the Bulbasaur FAC. I wasn't following that discussion. Bishonen | ノート 19:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC).
Bishonen: This is like our own private review of...something or other. I suppose I'm pleased that you've found a better sense of It. You could also reconsider my comment that you conveniently linked to above, I did say the same thing. I didn't particularly think you were sneakily referring to me; I did vigorously seek clarification of your statement. I didn't launch into a long explanatory spiel like this one, I trusted that the sense of it would get through fine with "I'm about as new in FAC as anyone, and I know it's a tricky thing finding one's bearings." It wasn't code; it did take into account the extended "Hollaback Girl" review, my first gruelling long one, where you were an active participant and obviously an old hand in FAC and elsewhere around WP, and would therefore realize that things on the FAC page are picked up by reviewers (wasn't that the point of the whole thread? Wasn't it read and replied to by a reviewer who commented directly before me in reply to you, and in part influenced my comment: "I definitely don't want to scare off anyone with mandatory PR. I'm a relative newbie to the FAC page."). It seems we're discussing for the sake of it, but that's OK. Clearly, I don't mind...rattling on. "Petulant" is a hot-button word, and Giano is offended seems to be the point. My intention wasn't to injure him, only to make a strong comment about a rather drastic FARC tactic that affected me, which is what I did. Tunnel vision? Why do you keep trying to...categorize and diagnose...? Finally, caps isn't SHOUTING in my book, it may still be an online convention, like in the old days ("please don't write in all caps, it's SHOUTING"), to me it's simply an emphasis alternative to boldface, a typographical flourish from my own zine past... I might use a smiley here if I still did, but I don't... --Tsavage 21:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm very taken aback to find that you read my comments as "nasty" and insulting where I had no intention to offend. But that's the nature of the medium of text, as we all know. I honestly thought I was referring pleasantly enough to an old situation where I thought you aware of having levelled groundless accusations against me, and that you were a bit embarrassed about it. The reason I thought that was that to my ear you sounded embarrassed, and aware of being in the wrong tree, here. Incidentally I think you construct a false dichotomy between yourself as sensitive newbie who needs much consideration and wikilove, and me as calloused old hand who deserves neither. You've been on Wikipedia longer than I have, and on FAC pretty long now and fifty times more intensely than I ever was. I don't understand what you mean by the point of the whole thread: the whole thread was created by somebody saying Peer Review was compulsory, so how could people have the nerve to nominate on FAC without going through Peer Review first? That was the message I responded to, that was the message that interested me. It stopped me from nominating an article I'd just written. No, come to think of it, I do mind rattling on and accumulating misunderstandings. I'm done, bye. Bishonen | ノート 01:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC).
Yes, text can be inefficient. Bye. --Tsavage 02:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FARC

Ahoy! There is an additional reason behind the deletion - in the event of a legitimate Farc, I do not want these as any kind of benchmark. Raul agreed with my decision as well. For the record though, as the text of each and every Farc was the same, I have undeleted one of them (here - oddly enough, the talk page had the same exact text as the Farc) . In my view, by the way, nothing you said on Farc Talk was necessarily innapropriate. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 02:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to review

I have been watching the FAC page for a couple of months and I have noticed that you are one of the best reviewers there. Your comments always illustrate that you have fully read the article and understand what is trying to be presented. More than anything I am impressed by your dedication to each FAC as you fully review and re-review the same article many times and constantly reply to the nominators to get the article to be good as it can possibly get. I am also impressed by your courage in diving right into those shall-we-say "pop culture" articles. My point here is to prod you into considering writing a How-to page on how to comprehensively review FACs (like User:Taxman/Featured article advice) to help other potential reviewers. --maclean25 07:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: We Belong Together

No problem. Except that I didn't think they were expanding on your objection. I thought it was an IP address including vandalism which then I reverted the edit as established by Wikipedia:Vandalism. —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Eternal Equinox has also been deleting my comments on the FA candidate page for this article. (As explained in my comments, I've intentionally disabled my WP account because I believe WP is fundamentally flawed.) --Bcrowell

Tsavage, if you have the time to, could you please resubmit your objections on Talk:We Belong Together? If this is a waste of time for you, then of course you don't need to comply as it is only a request. I'm going to attempt to compromise what you believe does not make the article featured status-worthy. Thanks! I've also posted this on Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Conduct Points

Hey, Ts, Just wanted to come make a couple little suggestions here. I agree with everything I have seen you post so far, and appreciate the help you gave me in the WBT FAC, but there are a couple lingering concerns with how brash you are in terms of comments. It rubs quite a few people the wrong way, and certainly doesn't help convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you. Could you perhaps use some softer language? I dont mean sugar coat, more the difference between "Hey you assholes!" and "Listen, you guys are being pricks." Anyway, feel free to yell at me or whatnot, but I thought I might help point it out. -Mask 02:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I was just building to a big exit... What I really think, though, is what I've said: FAC and FARC need more active management, less cage matches and unexplained decisions. More transparency... I've never been rude, and if I've become not so subtly sharper, that's an accurate reflection of my evolving opinion. If more editors actually participated in the "hotspots", individuals "like me" (outspoken?) wouldn't become the lighting rod for what problems with the process (or with individual articles) that many don't seem to want to get involved in. Anyhow, I won't be doing FACs, for a while, I'm not leaving in a huff, just other seasonal commitments. Happy enough if I was of some help in the process... Thanks for the note. (There's me being abrasive again. :) --Tsavage 03:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sharper? To me you're just the guy who likes to spit in my face. Have you thought about what it might be like on the receiving end? Bishonen | ノート 14:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC).
Look, I'm not trying to torture you. In fact, I made a mistake in sticking around FAC for so long. I originally arrived there after reading an atrocious TFA, and wondering how it made it to the front page. I tested out the process, beginning with supports, for a couple of months, and then got caught up in it. I don't have the type of focussed commitment to WP that Raul654's Law #1-ers seem to have. I was quite happy editing the few pages I worked on for the two years previous. FAC is fine for what it is, but it IMO is certainly more of a loose game of "get a star" than any sort of serious attempt to use WP resources to truly find "the best". That's fine. I'm perfectly aware that I've become sharper in my statements, but hurting people has not been the goal. FAC is competitive, and really, adversarial in the way it is managed, and if one can't express things bluntly (which can be far from rudely), there's a problem. When I read things like Jkelly's "advice" (mentoring?) below, I'm only more convinced that FAC is not a forum into which I should channel my energies. I don't get any satisfaction from skimming an article, posting a vote with a few words, and then moving on. That to me has nothing to do with "best" of any sort. So, yes, you have made your point. --Tsavage 20:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
? Not following. Is that really a reply to me or are you thinking of somebody else? You've never spoken to me on FAC, or showed any interest in a nomination of mine. | ノート 23:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC).
Bishonen: I understand and respect what you're doing as an admin. I'm not sure exactly of the details, but I glanced at your transparency list and I have a reasonable idea. It takes all kinds of interests to make big collaborative, volunteer projects work, and this is a big 'un. If you're really bothered and can't fathom my comments, as bottom-line an explanation as I can muster:
I'm simply pushing for what I think is reasonable, well-considered improvement in FAC operation. I don't know if there are inherent limitations in the overall WP model (I tend not to like the "it's great (but it'll always remaina a hobby site)" view of the quality potential), and I do like the idea of channelling energies ("our" group drive) in positive directions, like, how good could at least some articles really get as the result of a process, and not just individual editing efforts. So, in FAC, I soon realized that I could either "keep my head down" when I saw that standards for some promotions were IMO shockingly low, or I could stick my head out. Why the latter? Not at all to satisfy myself in the sense of venting, but more to lead off doing some of the heavy lifting, set a bit of an example if you will, because tides of consensus change have to start somewhere. In the course of doing that, I've been blunt (not rude), and that by definition will involve individuals, because things don't just "happen" here, they're done by people, so pointed comments will focus on people through their actions. I've taken as much flak as anyone who feels I've been...abrasive. Look at this page! Things can be "fun and collegial" here and there, but the moving forward of WP is a somewhat adversarial process at critical points, in the sense of people arguing strongly held, often quite opposing opinions (though it of course should never be be...gladiatorial, or bullying). This doesn't have to be nasty, but in some cases, it will get sharp. "Nothing personal" is perhaps a cliche and annoying as such, but it comes from somewhere for a reason, it is not always a negative, and IMHO it really, truly does apply in a positive way here!
(And I'm not being RUDE. My EE comment was very much a part of the FAC point, and had nothing to do with any one user, I would have said the same thing about any user/admin in that situation. I always imagine a group of interested editors following the various threads, and I was simply making clear the distinction between the "FAC issue" and a user behavior issue. The "self-righteous" and "relish" too weren't personal, I recently sampled some RfC stuff, and there is a definitely such a tone in many, maybe it results from a little battle-fatigue, or from being essentially uncomfortable with wielding power and passing judgement over others, but there IS a...tone amongst many. That was that reference. It is a form of public speaking here, and we're all tryiing to actually communicate hopefully worthy points... ) (I hope this isn't me being both verbose and stubbornly pedantic again... :) --Tsavage 17:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I have to say, differences that we have and will have, I have come across people here who are far ruder. Some even make Tsavage sound like Barbara Cartland - one editor here only recently unwittingly likened another reviewer to a plague of mass murderers while extolling figure of speech; "other seasonal commitments" now there's a phrase to make the mind wander. March/April....seasonal....I shall be pondering all night long. Giano | talk 21:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Aha! I have it top dressing and cereals! Giano | talk 21:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WT:FAC

Hi. After reading your comment at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates, I thought that it might be worth mentioning a few things. The first is that, yes, something a little unusual is going on. The conversation there, and in the other pages it has spilled over into, is politely ignoring the fact that an awful lot of effort has been put into mentoring a young problem editor by a number of users, User:Bishonen among them. A detailed explanation of the entire history, or an ArbCom case to make everything "official", would likely be both embarassing to the user in question and counter-productive insofar as it would likely escalate a situation that has, in fact, shown some drastic improvement. Secondly, if you are concerned that you (or someone else) might wind up being temporarily banned from pages by admin fiat, the absolute best way to avoid such a thing happening is to avoid being disruptive for several months until everyone's patience has been exhausted. Finally, if you're noticing a number of editors suggesting that your commenting is coming across as more aggressive than you intend it to be, you may want to consider toning it down. The question of whether or not it "really is aggressive" should be a lot less interesting than the question "how do I work well with other editors in a fun, collegial project devoted to making great encyclopedia articles". Thanks for taking the time to consider the above. Jkelly 20:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

That's your view. I appreciate any helpful intent, but it isn't helpful. You say, observe the status quo, go along to get along. Any idiot can see that for themselves, that's life's standard rule. I'd rather consider a view like (copied from above): "I have been watching the FAC page for a couple of months and I have noticed that you are one of the best reviewers there. Your comments always illustrate that you have fully read the article and understand what is trying to be presented. More than anything I am impressed by your dedication to each FAC as you fully review and re-review the same article many times and constantly reply to the nominators to get the article to be good as it can possibly get. I am also impressed by your courage in diving right into those shall-we-say "pop culture" articles." Perceptions differ... --Tsavage 20:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand your response, but I don't want to suggest that you are under any obligation to explain anything. Good luck with your editing. Jkelly 22:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Have a great break!

Hope the growing season goes well and that it's a relaxing time away from Wikipedia. Breaks are always nice; though I've never been able to stay away for more than a few weeks myself. Like I said before, you do great work, and aren't unwilling to push for higher standards. I'll do what I can while you're gone, but it won't be the same =). See you around! —Spangineer[es] (háblame) 22:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA

Hiya Tsavage, there's a discussion regarding the nature of FA here, any input is welcome BlueShirts 02:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] A thought for the tractor

"I sense a lot of self-righteousness and even relish in punishing people, which, whether they "deserve" it or not" from here [4] is actually not only rude to Bishonen, but very unjust. I'm sure you have the best intentions for Wikipedia, but so does Bishonen who spends a great deal of time oiling the cogs. It is therefore inevitable that she will come up against the mavericks more often than those who keep their heads down, consequently her appreciation and understanding and experience in dealing with these matters is greater than that of most other editors. This makes it very sad that you should perceive her actions in such a way, especially the crack "deserve it or not" in my opinion she is far too patient and forgiving of these people - far more so than I would be - I don't tolerate fools at all. I agree with the editor who praised your reviewing I too think you are thorough and don't doubt your dedication and sincerity - and when I don't agree with you I can generally see where you are coming from - that is why I think you could perhaps take the trouble or at to show others the same consideration, or at least give the benefit of the doubt.

I hope when you are tending your crops you will give these matters some thought. I hope you have a happy and successful summer (don't go organic or you will be poor for life) and when you return, as I hope you will, you understand that those who work hard for the project if not deserving of thanks are at least due a little respect. Regards Giano | talk 15:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:FAC

I hope you take the time to offer your input (and likely objections) to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mariah Carey! —Eternal Equinox | talk 19:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ketuanan Melayu

Hey, last time you provided some helpful feedback on the FAC of Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia. A related article, Ketuanan Melayu, is currently on peer review. If you could go over it and see if there are any major problems barring featuring, that would be great. Feel free to be brutal -- this is peer review, not FAC. ;-) Thanks in advance, Johnleemk | Talk 19:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI

Since you were also involved in the Bulbasaur FAC, you might be interested in Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Celestianpower. —Doug Bell talk•contrib 07:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apology

It was brought to my attention at my Request for bureaucratship that I hadn't apologised to you about the whole Bulbasaur incident. I now officially apologise for assuming bad faith on repeated occassions and being uncivil. I hope the whole incident can be put behind us once and for all. Esperanzial regards, --Celestianpower háblame 14:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orgnaic Certification

Posted some more information on the discussion page of the orgnaic certification article, would like you to check it out

[edit] Sunday Times Golden Globe Race

Hi, sorry to bug you, and feel free to ignore if you're not interested, but I found your comments on the recent Cape Horn FAC so helpful that I wondered if you would be interested in looking over the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race FAC. I feel that this is an interesting article; it currently has a couple of "support" votes, but seems to be suffering from a lack of interest. I'd much rather have it fail because of 100 specific objections than for simple lack of readers; so, if you have too much time on your hands ;-), I'd welcome any comments you might have, positive or negative. Cheers, — Johan the Ghost seance 14:42, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where have you gone

Where have you gone? Your comments on the FAC are missed. Raul654 21:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I second that, as per the barnstar I put on your user page :) Haukur 22:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] redirected the redirect Processed food

I redirected one of your redirects, Processed food. I was reading the history to check if there was anything intersting, and I found you changed it to exactly the opposite. So I thought I should meet Tsavage, shake hands and offer drinks, and ask about it. I often hear processed foods in a negative light in my nutrition classes, and struggled to find the same kind of matching content in the previous article food preservation. I think the redirect is correct and with time I'll think of more content to add, like comparing to fresh fruits. Nastajus 02:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We Belong Together

The article has undergone a major rewrite and I was wondering if there are any comments you have before it is nominated at FAC (which will likely occur at the end of May)? —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] WikiProject Soil

I am pretty sure this project will interest you. You are needed. Cheers! -- Paleorthid 07:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tsavage edit to Alternatives

Hi Tsavage, Thanks for your additions to this article. We need good editors. I wanted to see what you thought about my thoughts on your recent revision. You talked about organic certifications as those, "...which preclude most of the practices that characterize industrialized agriculture." I would argue that the major components of all agriculture are the anthropomorphic production of crops that inlcude the amelioration of germplasm to better suit human and environmental requirements. Next I would say tillage and (in most cases) irrigation of the planted ground are part of most practices. What do you think? --Agrofe 19:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

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