Talk:Trojan language

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It seems to me that since there's no earlier text to show as evidence, we can't be sure that the free communication between Trojans and Greeks in the Iliad already represents a fictional convention. I have therefore rephrased slightly. Is that OK? Andrew Dalby 12:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This is fine. but i would also like to say that this article contains nothing but speculations:

probably dating from about 1275 BC

of the Hittite empire of which Troy was probably a dependency

but it does not necessarily represent the everyday speech of the city

this may merely be evidence that a fictional convention...

In addition, for everyone that has studied Homerus, the only Trojan ally that he calls 'barbarophones' are the 'Carians'. so, saying that a fictional convention frequently used in narratives in later times had already been adopted by the poet of the Iliad, is just POV. Homerus is the only source we have, and he calls the Trojans Greek-speaking. if he did this for fictional convention reasons, he would also had included the Carians. Any connection between Trojan and Hittite or Luwian has not been attested. archaeological excavations can only mean that those states had commercial relations and nothing more. apropos, greek scripts have been found in Britain, Spain and Sri Lanka, but noone dares to call the Picts or Tamils Greek-speaking... Hectorian 14:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's speculative, and you might say the same of a great many articles on very early history. But, as you'll see if you reread the article, Homer is not the only source. The article identifies three sources.

The article says, carefully, that "this may merely be evidence that a fictional convention frequently used in narratives in later times had already been adopted by the poet of the Iliad". That's not POV, because "it may" implies that equally "it may not".

No, Homer doesn't "call ... the Trojans Greek-speaking", as you say. Nor does this article. If we wanted to speculate further, there could be several reasons why the Trojans in the Iliad "have no difficulty in speaking to their Greek opponents". Here are four: no POV, these are just possibilities.

1. They both had the same mother tongue (call it Greek or Trojan, therefore, it's the same)
2. The Achaeans, or some of them, had a second language that was familiar to the Trojans (e.g. Trojan? Luwian? Minoan?)
3. The Trojans, or some of them, had a second language that was familiar to the Achaeans (e.g. Greek? Luwian? Minoan?)
4. The poet of the Iliad had adopted the fictional convention named above.

A previous editor had asserted that this last was the real reason: I adjusted the article to make it clear that it is just one possibility out of several.

Does this respond to your comments? Andrew Dalby 15:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, u have responded quite well;-). However, i will insist that Homer calls only the Carians as 'barbarophones', this must mean something, right? first thing that it means is that the Greeks were definately not 'barbarophones', id est your point number 2 is immediately excluded (unless Minoan was a Greek language-note that it has not been read yet. btw, prior to Michael Ventris, Mycenean was also thought to be non-Greek). In addition, Homer could well say that Achaeans and Trojans were talking in a language other than Greek, while putting Greek words in their mouths; also, as an epic poet that he was, imagine how much interest this would attract from his audience. btw, do u know that in a specific point in Iliad, Hector and Achilles are talking about common ancestors, common origins? if u know Greek, i can try to find it for u in the original. if not, i can give u the specific line, so that u can check it yourself. Ciao Hectorian 18:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The point about the epithet given to the Carians is very interesting (and actually I discuss it in the book which is in the bibliography). There are (as always!) several possibilities, one of which is that if the poet lived in the eastern Aegean, Carian may have been the foreign language most familiar to the poet ... Yes, I know Greek, and I had forgotten about that conversation between Hector and Achilles. Please give me the reference! Best wishes Andrew Dalby 18:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, i found it! I made a mistake, though... It is not from Hector-Achilles battle, but from Diomedes-Glaucus incident:

τεύχεα δ' ἀλλήλοις ἐπαμείψομεν, ὄφρα καὶ οἵδε

γνῶσιν ὅτι ξεῖνοι πατρώϊοι εὐχόμεθ' εἶναι.

From Iliad, Z 230-231

I am not translating, since u said u know Greek;-). if u have difficulties, please let me know. Regards Hectorian 14:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)