Talk:Trojan Battle Order

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[edit] Is "Trojan Battle Order" the best title?

I'm not sure that "Trojan Battle Order" is the best title for this article. Most scholarship refers to this section as the "catalogue of Trojans" or "catalogue of Trojan allies" vel sim. As far as I know this section didn't have a standard title in antiquity. A google search for the exact phrase "Trojan Battle Order" turns up nothing.

What ancient Greek corresponds to "Trojan Battle Order"?

Should there even be an article for this section of the poem at all? Catalogue of Ships is not that long, and the Trojan catalogue is usually discussed along with it. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't previously see this comment. The ancient Greek title that corresponds to this is "Trōikos diakosmos", title of a very long study of the Trojan catalogue by Demetrius of Scepsis, which is lost of course but was frequently quoted by Athenaeus, Strabo and others. The translation "Trojan Battle Order" was chosen by C. B. Gulick, translator of Athenaeus (whether he was the first to use it I don't know). I haven't seen it used elsewhere, and wouldn't disagree if someone wanted to move this article to "Trojan catalogue" or "Catalogue of Trojan allies".

I don't agree with the idea of merging this article with Catalogue of Ships. I've meanwhile said so at Talk:Catalogue of Ships and won't repeat myself. They both contain some very ancient material, but there is every reason to suppose that the listings had a quite distinct prehistory before they got into the Iliad, and that prehistory needs to be discussed in each case. In addition, the two catalogues don't have the same structure. And the Trojan catalogue actually is not a catalogue of ships, while the Greek catalogue actually is.

I'm copying this comment to Talk:Catalogue of Ships, where there has been more recent discussion. Andrew Dalby 16:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asteropaios

Should Asteropaios be listed as the leader of the Paonians along with Pyramchmes? While he is not mentioned in any modern trasnslations in Book II of the Iliad he does address himself as the leader of them when talking to Achilleus. Also (Alough I'm not entirley certain, because I lost the book so I can't double check), I beleive the Companion to the Iliad states that some ancient editors wrote him in the Trojan Cataloge in Book II.

It's a nice question. There is actually a very good reason why he isn't in the "Trojan Battle Order" -- it's because, according to the Iliad, he joined up later (see Iliad 21.155-156). But you are right that at least one manuscript inserts him at this point.

To add the variations in the manuscripts would be quite an interesting thing to do but quite a complicated one.

To add names of people who (according to the rest of the Iliad) belong to these contingents but aren't in the catalogue would also be interesting and complicated. I hesitate because it might just make the thing too difficult to read. If you look at a commentary, such as Kirk's, you do find this information (or most of it). Andrew Dalby 18:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Homer treated him as one of the more prominant ally's featured (certainly more prominatly than the other Paonian chieftan, Pyramaches). As far as his late entry into the war (i think it said he was in his 11th day when he died), it shouldn't matter, as the Trojan catolouge was meant to go along with the current leaders of their tribes, and i think at the time Asteriopaios would have been present (though that is just me guessing). Even if that isn't the case than Neoptolemus should definatly be removed as leader of the Myrimidions in the Catalouge of ships using that reasoning correct? Could Asteriopios be listed if we used an asterik by his name and stated he was not actually listed by Homer? In my opinion I think it wouldn't be taking away from what is written by the poet if it is stated that he isn't listed in the asctual text, and also it would add a little bit more information about the leaders of the Trojan allys, I will however wait for feedback and opinions before any edits on this topic are made.

[edit] The expanded version

I hope it's OK. I can't make the statistics agree with the citation from Luce (but then, they didn't agree before, either). I don't have Luce's book, so I don't know the reason, but I suspect it just depends how you count. Andrew Dalby 18:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)