Talk:Triumph (Rome)

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[edit] Imperium v.s. Imperator

Imperium was a power granted by the senate over the legions, or military command in a more general sense... technically, any praefectus with military powers had it, let alone a commander on Caesar's level - Svartalf

This is true — but granting Ceaser imperium isn't the issue. As you rightly point out, he already had that. What the point in the article is saying is that Caeser was being granted the title of Imperator, which a) wasn't the Senate's to grant, and b) was already given to him by the legions. Imperium is not equal to Imperator, although they clearly have the same linguistic roots Beowulf314159 02:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm mentioning that "Imperium" was something Caesar did have, and that it entitled him to a triumph given his successes. Since some people seem to be befuddled on that issue, I feel it better that the fact be mentioned than otherwise. and a) the "imperator" title was granted to whomever had the proper military powers (I canna remember if they were appointed by the sanate or elected) b) it wasn't the legions that granted it, at least not then. and if the title "imperator" did not come from being granted "imperium", could you please remind me where it came from? --Svartalf 02:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah! OK. I didn't mean to "strike" your contribution then. Just that you used the colon spacer, so it was looking like a inline reply not a continuation. Sorry - I didn't realize that was what you were doing.

As for where it comes from,

In the Roman Republic, imperator was the title assumed by certain military commanders. After an especially great victory, an army's troops in the field would proclaim their commander imperator, an acclamation necessary for a general to apply to the Senate for a triumph. After being acclaimed imperator, the victorious general had a right to use the title after his name until the time of his triumph, where he would relinquish the title as well as his imperium. - Imperator

If you have primary sources that contradict this, then I would suggest you update the Imperator article as well.

Imperator also had use in the Roman Empire as part of the Imperial Titles — but that's not the same title of Imperator that is being granted here. The use changes between Republic and Empire

In the imperial period, the term did continue to be used in the Republican sense as a victory title; however, it could only be granted to the emperor, even if he had not commanded the victorious army in person. The title followed the emperor's name along with the number of times he was acclaimed as such, for example IMP V ("imperator five times").

As I said in the article, neither seems to what is being done in the series — hence an error.

Beowulf314159 03:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Funny : I had come to understand that a) the title "imperator" could come to anybody granted Imperium , namely any successful officer at the rank of praefect of above. and that the acclamations and honors could come only after the triumph , not as a prerequisite. Then again, there may be confusion about republican and imperial customs, or I may be plain wrong as I don't have my Roman history books at hand and may misremember.

Or Wikipedia could be wrong — which is why I asked if you had a primary source that said differently. It happens :) My knowledge of this is from Wikipedia. - Beowulf314159 03:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)