Talk:Trinity test

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Contents

[edit] Location

It would be more accurate to say that the Trinity Site was between the towns of Carrizozo and San Antonio, New Mexico. The latter is the closest town to the site.

[edit] "Popular culture"

I have to admit a strong bias: I can't stand the "In popular culture" sections which become a hodgepodge for every time a major historical event or theme is mentioned in a TV show, movie, Japanese cartoon, rock song, or science fiction novel (the nuclear weapon entry suffers from this somewhat, and the mad scientist entry had to be have a separate list created because people glutted up the page in an attempt to to add in every instance in "popular culture" of a "mad scientist" character.. so useless). I removed the following text:

[edit] In popular culture

The HBO television series Carnivale makes frequent reference to the Trinity site, initially in the pilot episode and now setting up the testing as a possible culmination point for the series.

Is there a compelling reason to add this? Does it improve the article? Does it improve our understanding of the article? I think that the article for the show should mention that it talks about the Trinity test, and link back here. I don't think such links need to be reciprocal, though. But I understand this is just a matter of taste. Let me know if you seriously think this is really necessary for an understanding of what "Trinity site" is about. --Fastfission 17:49, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

leave it out. - Omegatron 19:55, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

There is one "popular culture" (though it's not so popular) item I'm now afraid to refer to: Infocom's Trinity, in which you ultimately visit the site and have to stop the explosion... or so you think. Seeing that everything included must improve our understanding of the article, I'm sure we can't let this vile pop culture pervade our pristine nuggets of condensed knowledge. :-P 82.92.119.11 8 July 2005 14:59 (UTC)

That's interesting, but the link should be from the video game here, not vice versa. The video game doesn't enhance our understanding of the Trinity test; the Trinity test enhances our understanding of the video game. --Fastfission 8 July 2005 19:38 (UTC)
I was sorta hoping to challenge the assertion that "X cannot mention Y unless Y enhances our understanding of X"—getting into what is supposed to be "enhancing" to begin with. It's all too fuzzy and ill-defined for me to bother with. You obviously would disapprove of such an addition, I have no logical arguments to defend myself with, so I'll go away now. 82.92.119.11 9 July 2005 00:53 (UTC)
I've put a link to the game in a more appropriate page, nuclear weapons in popular culture, which is linked to from here. If we put in a link to that game, we'd have to put a link in to every movie, game, news article, etc. which ever mentioned the test. I think that's not very helpful on the whole. --Fastfission 20:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The Infocom game does a damn sight more than "mention" the test, considering the player must traverse an accurate virtual map of the test site and the McDonald Ranch House in order to play through successfully. Whether reading about the game will aid understanding of the test, I'll not argue, but playing the game certainly aided mine. Reading this article (and the one on McDonald Ranch House) for the first time, I noted facts I had already learned from the Infocom game. --63.25.15.191 15:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atmospheric ignition

Multiple sources have said that there were real fears of the blast triggering a Ice-9 type transition - in this case, igniting the atmosphere (!). If someone would be able to verify this as real or fake, it should make a very interesting addition... -- Kizor 21:23, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From Nuclear explosion:
In 1945 there was some initial speculation among the scientists developing the first nuclear weapons that there might be a possibility of igniting the earth's atmosphere with a large enough nuclear explosion. This would concern a nuclear reaction of two nitrogen atoms forming a carbon and an oxygen atom, with release of energy. This energy would heat up the remaining nitrogen enough to keep the reaction going until all nitrogen were finished. This was, however, quickly shown to be unlikely enough to be considered impossible [1]. Nevertheless, the notion has persisted as a rumor for many years.
--Fastfission 00:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

"Betting pools were set up among the observers for the results of the test. Some predictions ranged from zero, a dud, to 18 kilotons of TNT (predicted by I. I. Rabi), to destruction of the state of New Mexico, to ignition of the atmosphere and incineration of the planet (fortunately, this result was calculated to be almost impossible beforehand, though for a while it caused some of the scientists some anxiety.."

How did those betting on "ignition of the atmosphere and incineration of the planet" plan to collect on their wager in the event of them being correct ????? 87.112.11.232 11:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oppenheimer's hindu quote

The article states that ""Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of worlds." was a misquote by Oppenheimer. Can anyone say what the correct quote should have been? -Lethe | Talk 03:21, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Well, it depends on the translation. But most of them do "I am become Time" rather than "Death", I believe. I added a reference to an article by Hiyija which goes into it in (a ton of) detail. --Fastfission 04:27, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I believe the quote should be, "Now I am become Shiva, the Destroyer of worlds." Shiva is the Destroyer. Shiva is also the Creator. It has been suggested the Oppenheimer intended the double meaning. e=mc^2 is just that. It destroys, but also creates.
Um, you can see the article referenced at the bottom by Hiyija for a full discussion of the quote. --Fastfission 06:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Test director Kenneth Bainbridge, in an attempt to be less poetic, or perhaps more so, was said to have replied, "Now we are all sons of bitches." According to Oppenheimer's brother, Frank, at the time of the test he simply said, "It worked."

This passage is ambiguous. Was it Oppenheimer or Bainbridge that according to Frank so simply expressed his relief? I still don't know...

  • Ah, I see what you mean. Frank was referring to Robert, there. --Fastfission 00:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up (I think it's what most of us would have said, too!)

The examination of the precise translation and origin of a Bhagavad Gita quote by Oppenheimer is extraneous to this article. Oppenheimer's sentiments are captured sufficiently with the one line, regardless of what the text of more accurate translations may be or how similar other materials may be. I am removing it. --Soonercary 18:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I think it adds a lot, but I'm happy with putting it into a footnote. --Fastfission 19:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trinity anniversary!

The 60th anniversary of the Trinity shot will be coming up on July 16, 2005 (two months from now). Let's try to get this article up to featured status by that time, as there are likely to be lots of news stories about the shot and lots of people searching google for more information! An ideal article on this might be structured like so:

  • Reason for the testing (two paragraph history of the Manhattan Project up to this point, uncertainty of the implosion method)
  • Preparation for the testing itself (finding the site, clearing out the locals, Jumbo, 100T pre-test, Laurence's letter, naming the test, etc.)
  • The test (the gadget, weather, assembling the bomb, the countdown, detonation)
  • Reactions to the test (scientists' reactions, Oppenheimer's quote, etc.)
  • Beyond the test (used by Truman at Potsdam, clearing out the rubble, Trinitite, the iconic photography)
  • Trinity today (atomic tourism, in culture, symbolism)

Let's work to put something like this together! I'm also thinking that we might want to rename it to "Trinity test" rather than just the "site", but I'm not sure it matters heavily. But it is a thought. --Fastfission 18:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

  • I moved a draft to the article page. Improvements welcome. Ancheta Wis 15:13, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

+Bethe's determination of the feasibility of the method? +Univ of Calif. workshop on the bomb? +Atomic everything (cocktail waitresses, etc. -- Lew Kowarski )? Would this be on a subpage? Ancheta Wis 01:26, 16 May 2005 (UTC) July 16, 1945 05:45:29 AM, Mountain War Time

Certainly the whole "it won't work/oh wait maybe it will" etc. problems would be a wonderful addition (plays up for drama well). I'm not sure the Berkeley workshop is entirely germane -- it is less connected with Trinity than it is the MP as a whole. I'm not sure "atomic everything" would apply except so much as it related to Trinity itself -- the famous "blob" picture (Brixner) and that one famous color one (Aeby), and the incessant quoting ("I am become Death"), etc. would be, though. And one thing I would add to the above list is the way it was released to the public: after Hiroshima, and pictures not until later. --Fastfission 01:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

+OK, sign me up. I'm going to a bookstore to get Bethe's memoir, and will get started on that aspect of it (unless someone wants to do this part). But the man who simply said "It worked" afterward also had afterthoughts which are germane to the present day. You might also send a note to the political scientists who might enjoy adding commentary, or at least a link to articles about the commentary. There might also be links to the exact section of the Bhagavad Gita#Revelation of the Supreme with the "Sunburst of a Thousand Suns" phrase, etc. Ancheta Wis 10:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The Carrizozo Malpais has a satellite picture of the location of Trinity site. There is a Map-it macro with some images of the site and terrain. This area is amazing, by the way. The White Sands, the Black Malpais, with Sierra Blanca overlooking the area (yes, you can ski there), the Apache reservation, I am not sure if the Stealth Fighter wing will get closed down (probably not). Sunspot NM -- there are 2 solar observatories about 50 miles away. Ancheta Wis 10:34, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd like an aerial view of the crater. I added the coordinates so it's veiwable on google satellite but i'm sure there's some public domain pictures available somewhere. - Omegatron 23:20, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the crater doesn't exist anymore -- it was bulldozed over a long time ago. However there are some common aerial photos juxtaposing the Trinity test explosion and the 100T explosion in terms of magnitude which I'm sure were taken during the Manhattan Project and in the public domain. I'll try to dig up a good picture for a good hi-res scan. --Fastfission 00:53, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, right afterwards wuold be better than this. - Omegatron 02:16, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
The basic one I am talking about is this one (also here) but I'm not happy with any of the copies I have seen online. I think I know where I can find a much higher resolution version, but it will take me a few weeks to get back in town where I can access it. The large black crater was the Trinity blast, the smaller explosion to the south-east of it was the crater of 100 tons of TNT. --Fastfission 04:17, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hey guys, this looks pretty good! The only thing missing is a description of the actual test preparations itself -- Jumbo, hoisting the bomb to the top of the tower, problems in putting in the core, fear of the weather, leading up to the countdown. If someone has the time, there are a number of descriptions of this all over the internet... --Fastfission 14:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Whenever we get around to finding a place to stick it, I wasn't able to find a better crater picture but this one will do for now: Image:Trinity crater.jpg. --Fastfission 21:59, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


Well, I just came here from the link on the front page. Gotta say, you did a good job of making an interesting article. Well done. :) One small nitpick, though: you quote two figures for the yield of the device, 18.6kt and 19kt. I assume the 19 is rounded, but ideally the same figure should be used throughout the article. JulesH 22:13, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I fixed that up and went for a more "rounded" number (I don't trust "exact" numbers with things like this). --Fastfission 22:46, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Contemporary News reports

I just heard on NPR that there were contemporary news reports. What did they say? The article just says The military reported it as an accidental explosion at a munitions dump, and the actual cause was not publicly acknowledged until the August 6 attack but more info would be great. --NealMcB 19:10, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, I don't know, I'll see if I can find any citations for those. I have in PDFs all of the original press releases which were to be released depending on whether or not anybody died in the test (alluded to in the article), but I can't recall what was actually reported. The major newspapers (NYT, Washington Post, WSJ) did not pick it up at all, I'm pretty sure (I did a search on that day for "explosion" in their archives and found nothing relevant). --Fastfission 19:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tower leg shoes shown to this day

How come the basis of tower legs survived the explosion, including the steel bars in it? They were all inside the fireball. Shouldn't they atomize to plasma or entirely evaporate at least? I can understand how the big Jumbo jug survived 800 meters away, outside the fireball, but cannot get the tower legs.

The fireball does not supply an infinite amount of heat and the amount of heat is less at the edges. This is also why the fireball did not leave behind a perfectly spherically-shaped hole in the ground, as it could not atomize everything which it brushed. (SEWilco 18:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Yesterday was the open house

Did anyone else attend? 63.114.24.9 20:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Ethics matters

Though impeccably documented, at least from an historical perspective, I come to disagree with the original report. Its partial approach is perfectly reflected in the way it justifies the nuclear action overtaken by the US government. Yet in the dawn of the 21st century, I've just been horrified to read that 120,000 deaths were just a sort of collateral damage to avoid futher damages.I am afraid this is not only a frivolous and false remark, but a tremendous lack of respect for all the victims of that day, and a new prove that, unfortunately, history is written by winners. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.247.136.34 (talk • contribs) .

I have no idea what you're talking about, sorry. Try being a bit more coherent. --Fastfission 01:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colorized explosion

Is this a colorized version of Image:trinity_explosion.jpg? I'm not sure that a digitally altered version of a historic photo is more appropriate for this article. --Yath 06:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we've got a revert war brewing. I don't think colorized versions of historic photos belong in an encyclopedia except possibly in very specific, justified circumstances. None of the recently added images here (Trinity test) or at LZ 129 Hindenburg improve the article, in my opinion. If someone can bring up reasons for including them, by all means do so. But I think they should go. --Yath 06:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I think colorized images are a mistake as well. They sacrifice historical accuracy for showbiz pizazz. I suggest the black-and-white originals be returned. Blimpguy 12:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree. If the original is black-and-white (and I'm almost positive it is), we shouldn't be adding non-original information. Avt tor 14:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll second that opinion. Colourised images smack of original research on the part of the colouriser.--chris.lawson 21:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fermi fast mind

Perhaps must be quoted the anecdote of how Enrico Fermi estimate the power of the bomb with throwing papers while the test. It can be linked to Fermi's problems as well.

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