Talk:Trinity

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Contents

[edit] Archives

[edit] Trinity and Relativity

It is very amazing to me that so far nobody has made the connection between the trinity of the Christian religion and the Theory of Relativity expressed by Albert Einstein. Compare each of the attributes of the three persons in the godly trinity with each of the three components of the famous formula relating energy to mass, E=mc^2.

E is energy measured in joules (J). Like the "father" in the trinity, energy is formless, timeless, all present, etc.. Like the "son", who is the physical form of trinity, mass (measured in kilograms (kg)) is the physical form of energy. The holy spirit or ghost, is the "person" that makes things happen, as the speed of light squared (299 792 458 m/s squared) is what limits or controls the relationship between mass and energy.

Is the trinity a personification of relativity (E=mc^2)? Is there a relationship between the trinity and E=mc^2?

Before the Big Bang, there was no space, no time, no mass, no light, nothing, just energy. Thus, did the 2nd and 3rd persons exist before the Big Bang or like space, time, mass, light, did they come into existence only within the first nanoseconds after the big bang?

Does energy have an intelligence and if so is it the first person of the trinity?

Maybe the reason is that there is only a very thin connection, if any at all?
"Formless, timeless, all present etc." are attributes also of the Son (though not of His physical incarnation) and of the Spirit; to describe the Son as the "physical form of the Trinity" stresses only a very limited portion of His being and is, if taken as a description of God the Son, quite misleading. That the Spirit "limits or controls" the relationship between the other two is also wrong, as well as "he makes things happen".
Essentially, this is similar to many other "parallels" with the Trinity: If we look only at certain, usually very limited aspects and express them in vague enough terms, we can probably construct a "similarity" between any three things and the Trinity.
As an aside: "to exist before Time came into being" is a rather ... interesting concept. ;) Varana 15:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I certainly found this comparison enlightening. Is there a published source for this revelation or is it yours? I enjoy comparisons of spiritual entities and worldly entities, such as the scriptural "God is light", which explains His omnipresence and also triggers some thoughts regarding the relationship between speed of light, time travel, etc. ByteofKnowledge 16:16, 9 October 2006 (EDT)

Interesting that God should be compared to light. What is light? Light is composed of photons. The photon (God the Father?)has zero invariant mass and travels at the constant speed c, the speed of light in empty space(Holy Spirit?). However, in the presence of matter (Son of God?), a photon can be slowed or even absorbed, transferring energy and momentum proportional to its frequency. Like all quanta, the photon has both wave and particle properties; it exhibits wave–particle duality.

The connection has to be more then just mere coincidence.

It is not published, as I thought of it all by myself. I may not have presented it properly as I see others were able to find flaws. Had I organized the connections better, the connection might have appeared more possible. A theory may be 100 % correct, but if not presented properly can be made to appear 100 % wrong.

I personally think there is a connection, but it is something that would have to be reserached further.

One issue with this theory is that it is missing an element. "E" could not equate the Father, but would have to equate to God. This post would have "Father = Son/Spirit^2", which is not a representation of the trinity. In my opinion, any attempt to find a good analogy of the trinity in the physical world is destined for failure because the physical world is logical and can be submitted to human reason. E=mc^2 is logical. The trinity cannot be submitted to reason and relies upon the mysterious and the mystical. Jacob 19:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please take this to email or something. Article talk pages are for working out article content, not for general discussion or for working out our own private theories. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pagan trinity omission

Nice article BTW. An example of a pagan trinity that came to mind is that of Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto: the rulers over the Heavens (Father), Seas (Son) and the Underworld (spirit). These closely correpond to the greek gods Zeus, Poseidon and Hades. Or another influence could be Roman gods Jupiter (Father), Latona (Mother), Apolo or the Greek: Zeus (Father), Hera (Mother) and Apolo (Son). Any thoughts? --Cplot 07:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The Hindu "trinity" of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, which manifest the Brahman (not Brahma) which is the foundational reality, or All that Exists. Kornbelt 7 November 2006

It's one thing to include allusions to Pagan influence, it's another thing to paint it as truth. You should have included at least a sentence to discredit the link, merely on the basis that there is no public consensus on pagan origins of the trinity. History is full of coincidences. The article is unfair to not point this out, because the article is not discussing the influences on other religious faiths like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Tribal views. Spinifex00 13:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)Spinifex00 11:30, 16 August 2006 (Pacific Time)

There is also the so called Triple goddess from western Europe, probably most commonly found in the modern day worshiped by Wiccans. There is also the Druidic Awen. Hungarian, or specifically the Magyars have a traditional creation story involving "The Heavenly Father" the "Heavenly Mother" (she is sometimes referred to as Boldog Asszony) and their son, Magyar, the Golden Duck. The number of trinities found in non Christian traditions and religions abound. -- Lucy, 09:09, 5 September, 2006 (UTC)

A 'group of three Gods' does not make for a correspondance with the Christian Trinity. DJ Clayworth 13:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
unfortunately, Trinity (CHRISTIANITY) kinda makes it impossible to validly reference the pagan trinity, except perhaps as a relevant side-study. Perhaps you would like to set this up? Locriani 04:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scriptural support for nontrinitarian beliefs?

There is a section entitled, scritural support for the doctrine of the Trinity[1]; however, there is not a corresponding section for those who do not support the concept of the Trinity. I generally do not like scriptural citations in articles, but given the presence of the first it may be possible to introduce it without getting into a conflict. What are your thoughts? Storm Rider (talk) 22:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the linked antitrinitarian article would be the best place for the opposing list; this article presents the thesis that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on biblical texts (and mentions dissent), the contrary article presents the dissent in detail and the thesis that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on other sources (e.g., paganism, church tradition). One would expect to find a "support" list in the article about the Trinity, and a "deny" in the article against the Trinity. My thoughts anyhow. » MonkeeSage « 03:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello Monkey, that sounds like an unnecessary fork? Neither article is so large that it could not be combined in one article and forking it seems to be disjointed. Maybe I should check the history and find out if it was a concious choice of past editors or not. Do you think they could be combined? Do you think it would be a more balanced approach to the same subject?
I did read the mentioned dissent, but it is so weakly presented and couched within so much apologetic langauge that it is almost lost. Thoughts? Storm Rider (talk) 04:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Neither article is too large to be combined?? If you click on the article edit button, you currently get the following message:
This page is 61 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size.
In any case, the Trinity article already devotes ample space to alternative views and counterarguments. It's simply not the purpose of the Trinity article to devote exactly 50% of the space to Trinitarian arguments and the other 50% to anti-Trinitarian arguments -- that kind of "balance" is neither necessary nor desirable. AnonMoos 06:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Cool the jets, my intention is not to get anyone's feathers wet. I don't believe in 50/50 splits in article to cover pros and cons. Much of the con is followed by apologetic answers; not really a true counter, rather it is "and this is why we are right". The questions are:
  1. Is there a fork to the article that should not exist. Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian are two sides of the same coin.
  2. Should the two articles Trinity, antitrinitarianism and nontrinitarianism be a single article. This article does a lot of repeating and could be pared down. I certainly beleive the other two could also. I agree, this would take a lot of work. Then again, it may just be better to let sleeping dogs lie.
These are just questions; I am not advocating a path, but asking "why not?". I am not even certain that there was a concious fork. It may have just evolved in this manner. I simply was reading the article and there is a list of supporting scriptures for the Trinity and none for those that do not support the concept. In addition, those comments that are critical are often followed by apologetics. I think we would all be pressed to say this is a balanced article and meets WIKI standards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Storm Rider (talk • contribs).
I don't really have a preference regarding merging the articles. But i would say that I don't see anything wrong with apologetics in an article, so long as they are verifiable/not original research. Policy dictates: "Debates are [to be] described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular." It would not be fair to give only the Trinitarian argument, not the counter-arguments; or to give the counter-arguments, but leave off the rebuttals to the counter-arguments. And where applicable, rebuttals of the rebuttals should be given as well, and so on; til the debate is properly described, represented, and characterized. At least that I how I have understood the policy; but I am open to correction. » MonkeeSage « 08:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just inserted in the main article a note of criticism of the use of Matthew 4:10 as "scriptural support" for the dogtrine of Trinity: as the note I have added explains, the relative comment inserted (by whom?) in parentheses (...) is very week and artificial as a support for the trinitarian doctrine. In fact, the non-trinitarian explanation which I have proposed, is IMMO much more straightforward.

More in general, I have noticed that there is a systematic use, in the "Scriptural support" section, of what I believe to be non-NPOV discreetly put in parentheses (...): the result is strongly biased.

I am considering two alternative ways to amend this situation:

  • either to add systematic "altenative non-trinirarian notes"
  • or to introduce a new section, specular to the "Scriptural support" section, where the "altenative non-trinirarian POV" is shown.

I would be happy to receive comments before I proceed.(Miguel de Servet 19:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Scriptural support for trinitarian beliefs: a controversy

User Csernica has just trashed and erased three laborious and carefully worked out changes to the main article, including a relevant one on "Scriptural support". I have sent him an e-mail and also invited him to discuss such drastic "removals" as his on the talk page, before showing up as a self-appointed censor (Miguel de Servet 20:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

I reply to your email here, which is the suitable forum for content disucssions. I have no objection to discussing this via email, but it's more common to do so on the talk page. In particular, it's more convenient to use internal links to show where particular policies are given, or other references, as well as inviting the participation of others.
You should not contribute to Wikipedia if you're going to be terribly offended by others "trashing" your "laborious" work. It happens all the time. It's happened to me many times. That's how the process works. But reverts are simple, requiring nothing more than a few mouse clicks. Old edits are easily recoverable via tha page history, where all past contributions are preserved.
You do not appear to have read the discussion in the foregoing section. In general, we do not carry out back-and-forth arguments in the bodies of articles. Although one sees this from time to time in articles on contentious subjects, it really should not be done and is unencyclopedic. Presentation of alternate POVs can be done, but the POV should be presented and then left alone. Otherwise what you get is not so much an article, but an archive of an argument. In this case, the alternate POVs are adequately covered by the articles describing them, and which are linked from here extensively in the "Dissent from the doctrine" and "Other views of the Trinity" sections. If you feel those articles do not adequately cover dissenting views, then the thing to do is to fix them. The trouble here really is that the arguments and counterarguments are so extensive that they cannot be covered concisely in a single article. Splitting the subject into several articles is one way to deal with this, and has essentially been done here.
There were problems with these "counterarguments" anyway. You appear to have missed the point in the citation of Mt 4:10 since your footnote didn't really address what that paragraph was saying; this was the "strawman". You also stated a particular interpretation as a bald fact in your discussion of 2 Cor. 13:14, without admitting others. There were systematic problems of this sort in your edits.
If one is going to cry "censorship", then you are tarred by the same brush in your subsequent edits, where you cut as "POV" text whose very purpose was to present the POV that is the subject of this article! I'll leave it to others to fix, though. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

@ Cernica (TCC)

I will reply your reply of 21 June 2006 herebelow, commenting point by point on your passages which I will quote in italics


You should not contribute to Wikipedia if you're going to be terribly offended by others "trashing" your "laborious" work.

Do spare me and others your patronizing piece of advice! It’s already taken care of by "the system" anyway (see editing note: «If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.»). Ask yourself, instead,, if it is not a bit exorbitant to “trash” three "laborious" contributions exactly 11 minutes after the last one of them was inserted!!!


But reverts are simple, requiring nothing more than a few mouse clicks. Old edits are easily recoverable via tha page history, where all past contributions are preserved.

I wonder if yours is a serious proposition? And, immediately after, you talk "wisely" of things “unencyclopedic” (sic)!


Presentation of alternate POVs can be done, but the POV should be presented and then left alone. [evidence mine]

I wonder what you mean (I doubt that you do).


You appear to have missed the point in the citation of Mt 4:10 since your footnote didn't really address what that paragraph was saying; this was the "strawman".

I will repeat herebelow the citation of Mt 4:10 (and the relative "comment in support"), with my counter-comment footnote (deleted by you), so everybody can best judge for themselves whether my footnote did or didn't “really address what that paragraph was saying”:

  • [original text]Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'" (These and other verses exemplify the argument that Jesus did not refute the Old Testament prohibition against worshipping any god but God, and yet he states that the Son and Holy Spirit are to be involved in worship as well, implying that the Son and Holy Spirit must be, in some sense, God.)
  • [my footnote] It should be noted here, though, that a much more obvious (non-Trinitarian) explanation is possible: Jesus simply refuses to worship Satan, who had promised to grant to Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth, if he would bow down to Satan and worship him (Matthew 4:9: "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me.")


You also stated a particular interpretation as a bald fact in your discussion of 2 Cor. 13:14, without admitting others.

As above, I will repeat herebelow the citation of 2 Cor. 13:14 (and the relative "comment in support"), my counter-comment footnote (deleted by you), so everybody can best judge for themselves. BTW, I notice that you did not dare to tackle the Mt 28:19 issue: it would not be a “strawman” case, but more appropriately a case of an “implant”. [More on Mt 28:19 in the future]

  • [original text] The importance for the first Christians of their faith in God, whom they called Father, in Jesus Christ, whom they saw as Son of God, and in the Holy Spirit is expressed in formulas that link all three together, such as those […] in the Second Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Corinthians 13:14)
  • [my footnote] 2 Corinthians 13:14, is the formula of salutation at the conclusion of Paul’s epistle. Unlike Matthew 28:19, it does not distinguish a Father entity within the Godhead. Also, by referring to the Holy Spirit in terms of “fellowship”, it does not imply any personalistic character of it. [no "particular interpretation" here, just "bald facts", I'm afraid]


If one is going to cry "censorship", then you are tarred by the same brush in your subsequent edits, where you cut as "POV" text whose very purpose was to present the POV that is the subject of this article! I'll leave it to others to fix, though.

My “elimination of unnecessary and POV comments” from Scriptural texts was deliberately calculated. They were, in fact, appallingly POV comments which did not even have the decency of being relegated to a footnote, but craftily inserted (in parentheses!) in the main text. A sight for sore eyes! It is rather amusing to read that, although apparently “reverts are simple, requiring nothing more than a few mouse clicks”, you wisely "leave it to others to fix". Bravo! Let's see who bothers!? --Miguel de Servet 23:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are scripture references appropriate?

When I looked at the article today I immediately began to question the appropriateness of these long lists of scriptures. Scritpures necessarily are interpreted in divers ways; there is not simply one, single interpretation. Just because an individual says a scriptures supports the Trinity does not mean it is a reality. I have been told by others on other articles that it would be better to quote a theologian who states a specfic scripture provides a specific conclusion. Would it not be better to quote theologians rather than individual scrptures? I look forward to your comments. Storm Rider (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the Bible is a writing by God through men [2] and because the entire doctrine claims to have Biblical support then there should be many many scriptural references Kljenni 17:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why KJV?

I really don't see any reason to change the scriptural verse quotations to KJV (which is not how they were originally added to this page) -- it adds quaint charm and rolling rhetorical sonorousness, but really does absolutely nothing to increase comprehensibility to those who didn't grow up on it, or who have not made a study of Jacobean language. AnonMoos 08:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to say the same. If I can find the original submissions I'll change it back. No need to make life harder for our readers. DJ Clayworth 17:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The KJV has the advantage of more widespread acceptance, and aside from the archaic language is not particularly controversial, as the NIV is in some circles. Familiar quotations from it also enjoy more common recognition. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Up until the mid-20th century, the KJV was certainly safe common ground among most English-speaking Protestants -- however, I'm not sure that this is really decisive for writing a Wikipedia article now. Today is not sixty years ago, Protestants are not all the Christians, not all Protestants prefer the KJV -- and most importantly, terms with conflicting archaic 1611 vs. altered modern meanings, such as "Ghost", are a stumbling-block for a large number of those who didn't grow up intimately with the KJV. If you want to know what "Holy Ghost" conveys to the average typical English-speaker who has not been specially imbued with and habituated to 1611 language, then just go to http://www.thebricktestament.com/books/holy_trinity.html ... AnonMoos 03:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
KJV is less clear on important passages. In Col. 2:9, the archaic "Godhead" is often interpreted by modern readers as something like "God [title]" as in "God lives in my heart", rather than the actual meaning of "Godhood [quality]". Other reasons for using the NIV would be readability, its use as the de facto translation in popular study aids and popular as well as scholarly commentaries (e.g., The Bible Speaks Today series, the NICNT series), its use of current textual critical insights and texts, and its general popularity ("The NIV is the most widely accepted contemporary Bible translation today. More people today buy the NIV Bible than any other English-language translation." [3]). Reasons against using it would be its alleged sectarian bias and-or non-catholicity, and its dynamical renderings (e.g., "sinful nature" for "flesh" in many passages). » MonkeeSage « 22:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I've used the KJV very often for study. It's the only version approved in my diocese for public readings of the Gospel. I worked for many years at a Renaissance Faire known for its attention to historical accuracy (as such things go) where the KJV's rendering of Psalm 23 was used for dialect training. I've been in the position where I was the only person in the audience for a production of Shakespeare laughing at the dialogue.
The point of which is, I forget sometimes just how opaque many people find the language. I wonder if there's a reasonable middle ground that avoids the problems some have with the NIV without sacrificing comprehensibility. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I would agree with Csernica, but then again I have always used the KJV. I have many other versions/translations which I have studied, but the KJV is the one I find most like "home". It does not matter how scriptures are initially edited just as it does not matter about any initial edit, we should have uniformity. Didn't Wesley have a suggestion that it does not matter when referring to a site that an individual's preferences would bring the preferred translation up (I might be confusing articles)? That seems like an easy answer. Storm Rider (talk) 22:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The Bible Gateway can do that, I think, but the problem also has to do with which translation should be used for inline quotations. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Seems like someone has reverted the quotes back to NIV from KJV while this discussion is going on. Yes, I did understand that it was for inline quotes. Those who have not grown up with religion do find the KJV opaque and that may be reason enough to use something else. Regardless, let's just keep it to one version throughout the article. Given the topic/title of this article, I would think a Catholic version should have some preference (I speak as a non-Catholic so please no POV accusations). Storm Rider (talk) 23:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

ESV, like the NRSV, is a modern committee-based translation/revision of the 1971 RSV. It has an essentially literal translation philosophy, reads very well, is more transparent to the Greek (and I assume Hebrew) than the NIV, and has been endorsed by all different kinds of Christians (including the Bishop of Lewes). It is available from BibleGateway using the template {{esv}}. I've just created a new template, {{bverse}} (see User:MonkeeSage/Bible templates) that allows using NRSV and several other translations not available in {{bibleverse}} and {{bibleref}}, as well as ESV, KJV, &c. » MonkeeSage « 03:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The NRSV is a product of Catholic scholars, a wide variety of protestant scholars, and even Jewish scholrs (for OT). It is widely used in academic settings (I know of no university Theology Department or serious seminary course that doesn't rely on it as the standard English translation), it is recent and therefore reflects the best modern scholarship, and is even acceptable in Catholic and most mainline/non-Fundamentalist Protestant denominations (of which I am aware) as a liturgical alternative to the NAB. The KJV has some wonderful poetry, and some glaring errors in translation -- a serious encyclopedia should make use of the NRSV as the standard text for quotation for most purposes.Amherst5282 04:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. The NRSV is a perfectly good translation, and much preferable to the KJV. Incidentally we should be careful quoting passages where there is controversy over the translation to ensure that appropriate coverage of the disagreement is given if it is relevant to the subject under discussion. In my view the KJV should be used only when the subject under discussion is some view that relies exclusively on the KJV translation for support. DJ Clayworth 18:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Done then. Does anyone know if WIKISOURCE has a copy of the NRSV? If so, we could tie to it there. If not, would someone volunteer to align all references to the NRSV? I suspect we might revisit this in the future with new editors, but I will appreciate having uniformity in the article. Storm Rider (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know if WIKISOURCE has a copy of the NRSV? If it does, it's a copyvio. That's one problem with using it: as far as I know there are no online sources for it so we cannot link to quotation sources directly and contribution wrt Bilbical sources is effectively locked out for those who don't own this version. It's not even at BibleGateway.com. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
There are online sources for it. And there is now a template that makes it available (see my comment three posts above yours). » MonkeeSage « 00:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The copyright page of the NRSV specifically states that up to 500 verses may be quoted without attribution, as long as the verses quoted are less than 50% of a given Bible book, and that the text quoted is less than 50% of the total content of the article. So the non-lawyer's conclusion is that it's no problem for us to use here. --Blainster 19:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To use, yes. But the question was whether Wikisource had a copy.
Thanks, MS. I saw the earlier talk about the templates, but had forgotten about it right then. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
As TCC says, Wikisource cannot have a copy of the entire NRSV, as that would be a copyright violation according to the license page I described. The bverse template links to Crosswalk.com, who must have negotiated their own license, which may partly explain why their page is adorned with banner ads. --Blainster 22:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I googled for the NRSV and found several sources, but my skills were lacking. I could get a reference to the chapter, but not the verse. Oremus seemed to be a good resource. Thoughts for using another source? Storm Rider (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I imagine someone has made this point but the Eastern Orthodox Church does not accept the KJV, but rather has approved the NRSV which is accepted by the three branches of Christianity. Also theologians and biblical scholars do not use the KJV, and we should strive to be as scholarly as possible in this series. JWPhil 6/14/06(UTC)

This is untrue. The NRSV has been specifically disapproved by at least one English-speaking Orthodox Church. [4] TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't point to a reference, but I highly doubt that we're going to find any English translation that is acceptable to all branches of Christianity. Even the document referenced by TCC states that the KJV is not fully acceptable. In my experience at a Presbyterian-run seminary in the US, NRSV was the preferred translation for any sort of serious study, though others were often acceptable. However, KJV was very much discounted as a serious translation for study, although it was respected as a significant part of the Christian tradition. Essentially, almost any modern, non-paraphrase translation was considered as better for study than the KJV, which is based on inferior manuscripts and has significant language issues. I'll have to dig a bit to find it, but one professor pointed to a place where the meaning of an English word used in the KJV has drifted since the KJV was written to the point were the word now means the exact opposite of what it meant then. –RHolton≡– 18:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This sort of thing is well-known. I only meant to refute JWPhil's inaccurate claim about Orthodox acceptance of the NRSV, not re-open a broader discussion. TCC (talk) (contribs) 18:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
TCC is correct regarding Orthodox disapproval of the RSV and NRSV translations. I think that at least one reason is their heavy use of the Masoretic Text, which is thought to have been heavily influenced by "post-Temple Judaism" (for lack of a better phrase). Reading the Old Testament as a Jewish text rather than a Christian one is much in vogue in a number of Protestant seminaries, and probably other universities as well, but the Orthodox Church reads the entire Bible as a Christian text. And the NRSV's use of gender inclusive language may be controversial in some circles. Wesley \
Having said all that, I still open my NRSV when I want to read 4 Maccabees, as it seems rather hard to find in English. And I personally find the NIV much more consciously biased in its translation. The NKJV seems to read well while avoiding the worst of the KJV's language problems. Wesley 05:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The Bible accepted by the largest Church of Christinity (e. g. Catholicism) is the Douay-Rhiems. It reads like the KJV but doesn't have as many problems. Though my comment will probably be ignored, I propose that this article should use the Douay-Rheims Bible, which you can find at this link http://www.drbo.org/ StThomasMore 07:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Douay-Rheims has the same problems as the KJV, only more so, and has long been superseded. Actually, the official Bible text for the RCC is the Vulgate as currently revised. Current specifically Catholic English translations are the NAB and the NJB, although Catholic groups have sponsored others such as the REB. There's also a Catholic edition of the RSV. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

We seem to be going in a circle. Should someone just make a motion and let's move on. I am not interested in seeing a long debate on which Bible possesses the best translation. Let's just pick one and move on; does that work? Storm Rider (talk) 19:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought we had settled on the NRSV. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivial point

"Fulness" was not actually a misspelling (though by now it's a little old-fashioned, I guess...). AnonMoos 14:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trinity symbols

Does anybody think it would be a good idea to group together visual symbols of the Trinity all in one place. with some discussion (as opposed to commons:Category:Holy_Trinity, which is an unannotated heap of unsorted images)? That place would probably not be this article... AnonMoos 14:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geza Vermes (Jews, Muslims & Strict Monotheists)

The Trinity - a Muslim Perspective A lecture by English convert to Islam, Abdal-Hakim Murad, given to a group of Christians in Oxford, 1996

I have to confess I am not a Biblical scholar, armed with the dazzling array of philological qualifications deployed by so many others. But it does seem to me that a consensus has been emerging among serious historians, pre-eminent among whom are figures such as Professor Geza Vermes of Oxford, that Jesus of Nazareth himself never believed, or taught, that he was the second person of a divine trinity.

- Abdal-Hakim Murad[5] ------- submitted by Drogo Underburrow 23:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Neither of authorities cited is very likely to hold anything but non-trinitarian beliefs:
* Abdal-Hakim Murad is a Muslim
* Geza Vermes, Hungarian Jew, temporarily converted to Roman Catholicism, where he became even a priest, reverted to Judaism after a crisis
Having said that, I am also persuaded that both Jews and Muslims can provide the "fences" within which Christians can retrieve a deeper, truly scriptural sense of the Trinity, reaffirming the Strict Monotheism that (original and genuine) Christianity shares with both Judaism and Islam, all three of them being Abrahamic faiths. This will only be possible when Christianity ultimately recognized the Pagan, Egyptian and Hermetic nature of the Doctrine of Trinity which emerged from the Council of Nicea , 325 CE (Miguel de Servet 20:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

The above ideas are illogical and unfounded. Jesus does make reference to being on par with the "Father in heaven." That truth put aside for a moment, even if Jesus had not claimed any divinity, it is not sufficient proof that he was not divine: Reason being, for those that understand the gospel accounts, semitic peoples in Jesus' time were a constant danger to his life. More than once did he have to flee crowds, for the sake of not being arrested before the "appointed time." Jesus would have had many reasons to talk in parable (as he did) and to never make it perfectly clear how he did or did not relate to the Father God, nor to the Holy Spirit/Ghost, for that matter still.

[edit] "Per Se"

The article states in the Economic / Ontological section:

The main points, however, are that "there is one God because there is one Father" and that, while the Son and Spirit both derive their existence from the Father, the communion between the Three, being a relationship of Divine Love, is such that there is no subordination per se.

What does the article mean by "per se"? Is this to mean that there is no subordination in a figurative, relational sense, but that there is a subordination in that the Son and Spirit derive their existence from "the one God / one Father"? Jacob 03:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

This quote strongly infers that the Father is the One God and that the Son and Holy Spirit are somehow secondary in that they come from this One God. The statement "there is no subordination per se" does little to answer the obvious question that begs to be asked, "How can there be no subordination if there is one God the Father and the others come from Him?" I did not understand the doctrine of the Trinity to say as much, maybe Arianism... Nobody has any comments or clarification? Jacob 19:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The quote is correct as far as it goes, but what is not said in context it's an expression peculiar to the East. (I believe the quote is directly from Bp. Kallistos Ware, who is paraphrasing the Cappadocian Fathers.) In Trinitarian theology the Father is the Eternal Source or Principle (arche) eternally begetting the Son and from whom the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds. This is nothing more than a natural consequence of how the Son and the Holy Spirit relate to the Father. The Divine Unity is here conceived of in personal terms in the hypostatic mutual indwelling bound by a continual movement of love. Because they act with one will, there is no "subordination" in the ordinary human sense of obedience, since (for instance) the will of the Father is the will of the Son. There is also no subordination since they all possess the same essence and therefore they are all equally God.
The above doesn't quite look to me as if I've answered your question. I'm not sure that I'd characterize the eternal relations among the persons as "subordination", and perhaps the "per se" (which I did not add) was intended to express that subordination of one hypostasis to another should not be seen as a consequence of their relations. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I am a bit surprised by the language being used here. As a Latter-day Saint, I could easily say the same thing about our concept of the Godhead; virtually word for word. The third sentence would be a bit foreign in that the vocabularly is not common to LDS. It is also not my understanding of the concept of Trinity. I would like to get some more people to confirm that this is an accurate statement. If nothing else, per se seems unacceptable; it clouds/weakens the absolute oneness defined by the Trinity. Storm Rider (talk) 04:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
"There is one God because there is one Father" is a true Orthodox expression of faith and doctrine. See http://holytrinity.ok.goarch.org/Orthodoxy/Holy-Trinity.html to confirm that statement, in the section "One God, One Father." I think the later parts of the description would distinguish the Orthodox concept of the Trinity from the LDS concept of the Godhead. Another good reference, both longer and much older, is St. Ambrose's Three Books on the Holy Spirit, book two. Wesley 17:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Now, I am no expert on these issues, but I concur with what Wesley wrote. Regarding the expression "per se" I think it is unfortunate and ambiguous and not actually needed. The passage talks about ontological and economic subordination - "per se" does not answer this issue. Orthodox doctrine (whether RC or EO) holds the three hypostases to be ontologically and substantially one, while (from the economic perspective) both Son and Spirit originate from the Father (by being begotten and by proceeding, respectively). I will therefore change the "per se" bit into "according to substance". Are there any more issues? Str1977 (smile back) 10:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
No, this is incorrect. The hypostases are one in essence, nature, will, operation, love, knowledge, and are Three even though there is no division between them. This is an ontological statement; and the begetting of the Son and the procession of the Spirit occur eternally and ontologically.
The notion of the economical Trinity is about the way the hypostases relate to each other with regard to the work of Salvation, where the Father sends the Son and the Son sends the Spirit. It's distinguished from the ontological Trinity because it's primarily about how God acts, not the relations within himself. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I now note your edit to the article. "Per se" may be unclear, but I'm afraid "according to substance" is almost meaningless in context. To the extent it reflects the understanding you indicated above, it's incorrect. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Tag

I just added a question about this article's POV, because I read it for the first time and long passages sounded like a missionary tract to me. They weren't writtten in the dispassionate tone of an encyclopedia, but were written as if advocating the point of view they were describing. I'd like to hear what others think.--SEF23a 01:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi I would tend not to agree as a new Wikipediast. The article does make some very general statements about the Trinity - Para 6 in particular refers to the views of different Christian groups about the doctrine of the "one essence and three persons". However the paragraph does not point out that most mainstream Christian chuches believe that the reason why Christ cried out "My God, My God,Why have you forsaken me?" on the Cross was because the mystic oneness of the Trinity relationship was being temporarily fractured so that He could bear the sins of the whole world on His shoulders and die in our place. The physical pain and suffering that He bore was compounded beyond mortal understanding by the breaking of His link with the other two Persons of the Trinity and that caused Him untold pain and distress.
Articles such as this cannot be merely factual because they deal with matters of heartfelt belief - however they should record the main beliefs about the issues under discussion without actually indicating which are correct. Otherwise most of the article is well written and researched. The author has tried hard to cover the main aspects of the Trinity doctrine and suceeded very well generally. (Frankie502004 14:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC))
Any citation for the 'mainstream' Protestant belief that the Trinity was fractured when Jesus died on the cross? I remember thinking that way myself once, but I always thought it was my own mistake made when I didn't know better. If Father, Son and Holy Spirit truly share a single divine essence, it makes no sense to think of the Trinity fracturing that way. If they are three separate beings that just share some kind of link that can be broken, then it starts looking a lot more like a three-member pantheon. I don't mean to argue the point or convince you, just wondering how widespread the belief in a once-fractured Trinity is.
To address SEF23a's NPOV concern, I would just say that in general, an article like this needs to present what the beliefs or doctrine is, but it needs to present it as "what these people happen to think", not as what Wikipedia thinks and not as though it were universally believed by everyone. If it manages to just document what trinitarian Christians think of the Trinity, then it's done its job satisfying the NPOV rule. Wesley 16:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Wesley I agree with your point about NPOV concerns - such an article can only set out the main lines of differing belief about the Trinity but should concentrate on those who accept there is a Trinity as generally accepted in mainstream Christianity.
Re the fracturing of the Trinity relationship, mainstream evangelical Protestant teaching is that as God the Father cannot look on sin, in order for Jesus to take on himself the punishment for sin he had to be separated from God (for a time), as continues to be the case for all individuals who do not accept nor believe on Christ as Saviour. The work He did on the cross was to act as our surrogate taking away the stain of sin. After His death He was in Hell for three days and triumpantly arose from the dead, at which point He was in full communion with the Trinity again. If in fact the Godhead was an an entity which was absolutely one divine essence and could not be separated, then the sacrifice for sin which Jesus undertook would be void i.e.He could not have taken our sins upon His shoulders, as the Trininty God (which includes Jesus as an integral member) cannot look on or have any dealings with sin or rebellion. This is why He suffered such great anguish on the Tree - He had to separate Himself from the Father and the Spirit in order to achieve His great saving Work.
This deals with the problem of sin and our total inability to approach or please God on our own merits; Jesus as saviour is our advocate with the Father and as a result He (the Father)overlooks our sinful nature provided we accept and love His Son.
  • I basically agree with Wesley that the main thing that needs to be done is a judicious use of "trinitarians believe..."-type statements. But rereading the article, I do think more are needed. Entire paragraphs of the "Ontology" section simply present the doctrine as if it were baldly true, rather than a particular type of belief. (E.g. first paragraph of "one God" subsection, second paragraph of "God exists in three persons" subsection, etc.) A bit of rewriting to make this sound more like reporting some group's belief and less like the article was taking a position would do the trick.SEF23a 20:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the first sentence of the "one God" paragraph reads quite blunt, it is explained by the following statement. I tried to make that clearer by replacing the full stop with a ":". That way, it is a statement about what the "Hebrew scriptures" say, and the following citations explain it. (Though to open the paragraph with that blunt statement and then to explain it, was imho better style...)

Generally: I don't think that we need to add "Trinitarians believe" to every statement. The whole article is about a belief held by Trinitarians; if anything is said about God within it, it is of course according to Trinitarian belief (except explicitly stated otherwise). If I read an article explaining a certain belief about God, and it says "God is...", I naturally assume that that means "according to those who hold that belief". Anything else is not necessary, imho. Varana 19:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly we don't need to add "Trinitarians believe" to every statement. It's a question of overall tone and balance. It seemed to me that it was off -- that it had toppled into outright advocacy. If others disagree, then fine. But it sounded that way to me. SEF23a 05:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe that even in articles of faith we need to be careful that WIKI is not perceived as advocating a position. I also agree that an abundance of "Trinitarians believe" are necessary, but a sufficient number of qualifiers are required to ensure that casual readers never get the impression that WIKI is teaching a "Sunday school lesson". Storm Rider (talk) 07:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It really does not seem to me that this article violates the NPOV policy, it seems quite clear to me that the article is about beliefs within the belief system, and does not relegate the information as a "sunday school lesson." I had several friends, of different religious beliefs (christian, atheist, muslim, and hindu) read this article, and each of them agreed with my observation that it does not violate a NPOV. Of course, that is only 5 perspectives. "Trinitarians believe" seems more than a little ridiculous, imho, because i have yet to meet a christian who subscribes to this belief system that calls him or herself a "Trinitarian." Locriani 04:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing NPOV tag

Since there's been no discussion on the matter in the last three weeks, I will remove the NPOV tag in a day or two... AnonMoos 16:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On reguards to dispute about a Trinity

If anyone is doubting the fact that there is a Trinity, read Genesis 1:26. NLT says " Then God said, "let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life..."

For any confusion, I also looked up the Amplified Bible version, as I was confused myself. The only difference was that us was changed to: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

If we really want to dispute facts that are given about Christianity, maybe we should all become a little bit more knowledgable with our Bibles. Because in the end, they provide us with all the answers. Saved365 05:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This page is for discussing issues with article content. It's not a general discussion forum. However, I should point out that notes and marginal theological explanations in a Bible (even if they happen to be typeset inline and not as marginal notes) do not carry the same weight as ancient authorities. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The usage of 'us' in Genesis 1:26 can be explained by the usage of the word 'Elohim' which is usually translated as 'God' but also erroneously as 'angels'. Elohim is a plural noun. So the plurality of God does not necessarily point to Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit being present. I am a member of a loosely affiliated group of Christians who do not believe in the Trinity, but do believe in the Godhead type of entity which forms part of the Mormon doctrine. The simplest explanation of this is in comparison with a human family. A husband and wife are 'one'. But they are their own person. A son or daughter are distinctly related to their father and mother in that they carry all the genes (including defects) from their predecessors. So Jesus was born of God's seed (the Holy Spirit) in Mary's womb, which made him a human with a spiritual father. ByteofKnowledge 20:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the stuff about Genesis. Nope, sorry. Hebrew shifts pronouns around when referring to God because to apply a fixed moniker to God would presume that God can be understood/domesticated. Arabic does the same thing. Sometimes the pronoun is he, sometimes she, sometimes "you" in plural form (think y'all) and sometimes you in the singular. Also, you must understand that if Genesis was a preexilic document, Hebrews were not yet hard monotheists, they were henotheist. They would have recognized their god as one among a pantheon. "Us" could therefore be construed as referring to the various tribal dieties with which the authors of Genesis were familiar. Moreover, if the symbology was so obvious as to indicate a tripartite diety, would not the Jews have been at least dualistic in their worship? They've had a great deal more time with the material than the Christians, their scholarship has always been quite advanced, and they would certainly have noted that textual clue. You need to look elsewhere. MerricMaker 05:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting last point. There has been some hypothesis made that Jews in some practices seemed to be almost recognising a female deity as a kind of Dualistic partner to the male-father-god Yahweh. The concept of a loose non-monotheism has been documented. Of course, it has also been repressed by powerful forces. The traditions at stake are powerful enough to warrant people with axes to grind to take extreme action. We learn little from history...
"Moreover, if the symbology was so obvious as to indicate a tripartite diety, would not the Jews have been at least dualistic in their worship?" The Rabbinic Jews were the originator of the "hard" monotheism. There is a fair amount of evidence that many Jews in the first century and many more prior to the exile did not hold this hard view at all. For example Philo, and various Dead Sea scrolls, not to mention, arguably, the Hebrew scriptures themselves. Philo wrote extensively regarding the "Great Angel", using Hebrew sources, who was essentially the Hebrew demiurge, and whom he pegged as the Logos, the high priest, the true Aaron, the true Moses, the true Solomon (son of God), the intermediator between the High Yahweh and the world, the proximate creator of the world, the angel that was with Israel who "has my name (YHWH) in him" (Exo 32), etc. The early Christians believed this person became incarnate as Christ. In fact, John 1:1-3 is nothing short of a positive ID of who the writer believed Jesus was: the Great Angel. This is a rich subject, worthy of it's own Wikipedia page. Kornbelt 7 November 2006.

Notwithstanding, it is also true that in the English speaking world we have dropped the use of gender articles and made clear distinctions in plural and singular in many ways and forms, so it beggers pain and conscientious effort to back-step and realise that the ancient writers were utilising languages that made no clear distinctions at all. As a point in check, we can even criticise the old King James, which uses the passage "and the lord spoke unto my lord..." This is enough to cite the problem of some older languages that have not evolved or been updated: Sometimes the context itself leaves some ambiguity as to the subject and object, gender or number. It takes great pain and even perhaps some admission of uncertainty. It seems quite bombastic on the part of some to hold a position and claim it to be above debate. Be all the above as it may or may not, Monotheism as an issue, in antithesis to trinity, is a spurious one at times. With the various interpretations of trinity, this can be seen without need to refer anywhere else. An interesting study can be made of the Old Testament and also of the Quran to some degree, and lead on to the question: If the possibility of other gods besides the "one true" is so vehemently held to be false, then why did the ancient Monotheist God always appear to so protectively ask for worship? Since being, the other gods are not there at all and hence need not the worry? Still further is the claim of understanding at a human-level. Monotheist or Trinity, or any other combination for that matter, we anthropomorphise God by so doing. Even Islam is guilty of this. We cannot rightly speak in terms of God being just "one being" in so much as this limits God--something which Muslims claim we should never do. God is not like a person or distinct being, reason being, it is arbitrary to think so. Even when the sacred books may allude to his being a distinct-being, it is at best just that: An allusion for imperfect human reader's minds. This could be considered for article content, for it concludes us to a point: Trinity and Monotheism are both labels to give humans understanding, without really identifying an even deeper reality to God.

All the "jealous God demanding worship stuff" comes from henotheist periods in Jewish history. You rightly note that if there was only one God, what would that God care if someone was worshipping a different God? There have been times when the Jews forgot their God and worshipped Ba'al. Injunctions against this in the OT were about the Jews maintaining their culture. Forgetting YHWH meant abandoning Jewishness, and if Jewish scripture in its earliest form cared about anything, it was the viability of the tribe and its continued Jewishness. MerricMaker 16:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Let us assume for a moment that the genesis passages do not refer to God being a plurality of persons, but instead merely a writer's attempt to magnify God's glory on paper through the use of the plural form. Why the plural? God's name is Yahweh (I am that I am) but his unique title is a plural. Why not use something else besides plural "Elohim". It's consistently used as a singular form all over the Bible. That does not mesh well with the notion that "let us create man" was the Genesis writer's own leftover pantheism creeping into the writing. Why? because the entire phrase is "Let us create man in our own image, after our own likeness", and this certainly would affect how 6th Century B.C. priests would interpret things! God is referring to a fundamentally united image, and likeness, implying that whoever else God is referring to as "us" would be essentially identical to He Himself. But since God is conversing and articulating the words "us" and "our" then there must be some area between monad and pantheon. Somehow the concept of God being naturally plural in his capacities was not lost on ancient religious folk. Just like the concept of a Soul and Spirit were not lost on them either. We today have the hardest time understanding that at least, the Bible differentiates between a soul and spirit. But this was also articulated in other religions in antiquity. So, let us not assume that the writers of the old days were too dull or dense to understand the philosophical concepts we discuss now. If I recall, in Egyptian, Caananite, and other mythologies, the Chief Creator God had an opposing or contrary consort... not one whose image is united, and not one who mirrored their essence. Shu and Tefnut were not of the same form, or essence. Astharte and Ba were not of the same esssence. If God... no, if the writer who wrote that statement, was eluding to another god or gods participating in the creation, then it would be "Let us make man in our own images, after our own likenesses". Remember, the Trinity is a word to articulate HOW God is described IN the bible. I do not know where this nonsense about the Trinity being an external force added to Biblical interpretation. I grew up believing that the Trinity was in itself a force greater than God, but instead when I read the Bible, I understood that the Trinity was the only logical explanation for what I read in the Bible. It is a word, generated from a concept that we can barely wrap our minds around. We sit here and make straw-man arguments against a duo or triad, which is not what the Trinity articulates. --Zaphnathpaaneah 11:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is all very interesting. But as is often the case, and literally in this case, we tend to overlook the noses on our own face. If God is an "us" and we are made in "his" image, I suppose all one would have to do is look into the mirror to see if God is a Trinity. St. Augustine seemed to figure this out and tried to find a Trinity within himself. The best he could come up with was memory, understanding, and will. But he recognized that this was not analagous to the orthodox Trinity of separate and distinct Persons. C.S. Lewis tried to use a cube. Others have used the sun or water. Only St. Augustine realized that we must look within ourselves, and it could be argued that he never found what he was looking for. Regardless, other than my multiple personalities, I am one person, not three. And since we are made in God's image, we therefore are the greatest reflection of God that there is. God therefore is no more an "us" than you or I. Regarding the Genesis account, it is enlightening to read what Hebrew commentaries have to say about it... re, "Plurality of Majesty". The problem with many researchers of this topic is that they only read Trinitarian commentaries and then are amazed that they all seem to have a Trinitarian slant! Amazing isn't it? 67.141.65.221 22:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments against Trinity exposed

There are four groups that have a strong argument against the Trinity.

  • Mormons
  • Muslims
  • Jehovah Witnesses
  • Oneness Pentecostals

Here is the problem. They all claim that the Trinity is a roman invention created explicitly to debunk the truth of their religion. But they cannot all be right. The arguement is a statement in silence.

The Trinity itself (and should be clarified in the Article) is regarding the fact that in the Bible Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit interact with each other (not just humanity), and thus have a relationship with each other. That is the essential doctrine. Everything in the Catholic and Trinitarian doctrine eminates from this fundamental fact. Oneness advocates try to redefine the relationship as being one person interacting with "himself" or by playing down one of the two identities interacting...so saying "Jesus was such-and-suching" or "the Father was just doing this or that".

A living relationship where "he, I, and you" occur, where one speaks of "yours, and mine" and "his" requires more than one person being present. You cannot use a manifestation in the place of a person, becuse the manifestation is merely a mirage.

The other issue is the erroneous idea of what a person is. A being is not a person, just like a fruit is not an apple, even though the opposite holds true. But Oneness and others argue as if that is the case. They argue that a being is a person, and therefore a singular divine being is capable of being only a singular person. I would agree, except the Bible describes otherwise. "let us create man in our own image" and "The father has sent me" etc. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Definition from Websters Dictionary of PERSON: "1. A human being; a man, woman, or child. 8. Any of the three modes of being in the Trinity." The definition of a person then is "A human being." Oneness people seem to be saying that there are not three persons or human beings in the Trinity and that there is only one human being which is Christ . The Father and Holy Ghost being Spirits are not human beings or persons therefore saying there are three persons in the Trinity is incorrect according to them. Spirits not having corporal bodies must then "manifest" as spirits and any human personage must be manifest through Christ. Really makes sense if you think about it. GWr

Webster's has virtually no standing when we're talking about theological or philosophical language. For that you need an Oxford Theological Dictionary or some similar text. Person in the context of a discussion of the Trinity does not refer to a human person or being of the sort that might wear a name-tag. Person, particularly in discussions of Trinity carries a much different meaning. Boethius' definition continues to be used in reference texts today, which is "an individual substance of a rational nature." You will note that human-ness is nowhere implied in this definition. Hell, a being at all isn't even mentioned. MerricMaker 04:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


If you want to get technical let us go to the original Greek . "Person" can be properly translated as "Persona" which is Mask. So now we have the three masks of God. The Modalists are ahead again. (By the way, please be respectful and do not use curse words on a Talk Page about religious subjects. Thank you.) GWr

People, Wikipedia is not a place for arguing over the truth of something. It is a place for writing encyclopedia articles. DJ Clayworth 13:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite the expose'. If we are getting into the technical Greek, then this whole discussion of "Person" in relation to God must be dropped. The Greek term for "Person", υπόστασις, is only found 5 times in the N.T. and only once in relation to God. And the one time it is used in relation to God it says that Jesus Christ is the express image of God's Person (υπόστασις), meaning that Jesus is the image of all that God (in totality) is. This also happens to describe the Modalist view. You will find no other Personhood of God in the Bible outside of Jesus Christ. And to ascribe multiple Persons to God is completely extra-Biblical and an invention of the Nicene era. Jacob 17:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LDS

I think you have the LDS (Mormon) view of the Trinity wrong. LDS do not believe it is a Roman invention adopted by 4th century Christians as formal policy. I do believe you will find that we believe that Christainity was influenced by Roman philosophy, but we would also say that the Nicene Creed is a doctrine of man created by the councils of men.
I apologize, but the rest of your edit went over my head. LDS believe that there are three, distinct persons: God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost. They are separate. Where we differ is the concept of essence of substance...we simply do not use that terminology and do not have a corresponding concept. In many ways we would say if it is not in the Bible, then let us use care.
Fundamentally, the Nicene Creed is a doctrine that attempts to ensure that Christians can acknowledge a single God when confronted with three different beings. It allows for a monotheistic approach to the Father, His Son of God, and the Second Comforter, the Holy Spirit. On the surface it is very confusing to the uninitiated and to non-Christians. LDS have a similar confusion, but it may be a bit worse. The Book of Mormon teaches there is one God, but three beings. It sounds very similar, but it is yet different because it does not attempt to describe essence or substance. Cheers. Storm Rider (talk) 07:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Well you elaborate my point. The LDS belief system has changed. The articulation of the Nicene Creed is not a doctrine created out of an external application onto the Bible, but from consistent and reliable interpretation of the Bible. In other words, there is no sense in what you say, because you do not care about the implications. Our discussion about, person, being, and substance are our own interpretations of philosophical idea. To say that there is one God who is "three beings" is nonsense because God is a "being". There is no further breakdown of a being beyond your own "LDS definition OF a being". It does not sound similar at all to saying one being which is three persons. Your LDS idea is merely a semantic institution, much like saying a Triangle is three shapes, or a circle is a round square. We're not even talking about religion at that point but instead allowing you to entertain your method of gaining converts through a misuse of philosophical terms. Lets see how the Muslims, Oneness, and JWs fare. --208.254.174.148 07:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me make it more clear. If your saying that God is three beings, then your saying that a "being" is a concept composed of parts. (And that becomes the word play). In English, everyone else understands the being to be the irreducable fundamental part, essence, the area that can not be broken down any further of identifying one living sentinent lifeform. So now we have the LDS counter-trinity. That is "God is three beings". Now lets hear the JW, and Oneness and Muslim interpretation of the Biblical God. --208.254.174.148

07:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Also I apologize, but I do find it consistently dishonest for you to rely on prepositional phrases to allow for ambiguity on your position. "LDS do not believe it is a Roman invention adopted by 4th century Christians as formal policy. " That is such a non committal position, but consistent in how I have heard Mormons discuss these issues. Optionally true statements. Stop that. --208.254.174.148 07:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

A troll is as a troll does. There is no communication here, but you seem to desire to provoke. Good luck. Storm Rider (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


The trinity appears to be, and has always been, a subject that intrigues academics with too much time on their hands - also mobs who need a reason to burn someone, another group with too much time on their hands. Some time ago I read my father's Bible, I am a pretty good reader - catch subtlities usually - and I honestly couldn't find anything that would suggest the creation of such a dogmatic concept. There are several other theological concepts that seem likewise to be tortured interpretation - plain misreadings in some cases that seem to be religiously adhered to. I believe somewhere in the Bible it says that the Bible is not made up of tricky wording - when I see tricky concepts you can bet that you aren't going to find them plainly stated anywhere in the Bible, Let's face it they had 1000 pages, if it was really important then they could have wedged it in somewhere or even added a page or two.

I was tempted to reply to this thread, but instead I'm going to ask everyone involved to move it to their user talk pages -- or even better, email -- to the extent it's veering in the direction it appears to be. This page is for developing article content, not theological disputes. The article should describe the doctrine of the Trinity as it actually exists without advocating it, just as Nontrinitarianism should describe that doctrine without advocating it. What personal conclusion anyone may have come to in their private interpretation of Scripture is utterly irrelevant. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Curse Words" in Religious Discussions

First off, sorry if my use of "hell" was troubling. However, language is used to carry meaning and sometimes meaning is carried best by that lovely collection of one-syllable terms called "curse words." Aquinas used them, Calvin and Luther used them. The question is not of their use, but of their appropriate use. I don't mean to invite a storm of those words, but if you're trying to get meaning across in informal discussion there are some words which are the best choice for the connotation you are trying to carry. "Heck," "Poppycock," and "Malarkey" just don't quite cut it, particularly not in text (unless you added italics). I can promise you that, when needed, such words are used by professional theologians, whose job is largely one of communication. I can tell you about very interesing panel meetings at AAR symposiums in which everyone was "working blue." Also, as a final note, "hell" stopped being a curse word about the same time Queen Victoria died. So again, sorry if I offended, but please remember the context of the use of the word. That is much more important than the word itself. MerricMaker 16:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No one of note cares about your use of "hell". Anon editors can log in and identify themselves if they want to put their foot down about something. Besides, this talk pages is no place for a religious discussion. It's for encyclopedia-related discussions. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


I understand MerricMaker. I just thought I would mention that many people, although not all, may find such words out of place in a religious forum. I just came from another forum where an individual tested the waters with a few slang words and ended up littering the page with vulger language. Again not all people find slang offensive, however there are so many more beautiful and powerful words in the English language that are so much more effective that I personally prefer to use. I am sorry. I did not mean to offend. As far as anonymous users, I am new both to Wikipedia and to the computer but from what I can see taking time to log in is just a waste of time because doing so does not identify anyone. EVERYBODY is an anonymous user here. I click on names and most of the time I get absoloutly no names, location, or credentials of most people writing on these pages. Without knowing who is editing there should be a disclaimer on all articles saying that this is not a true encyclopedia and information may or may not be true. With that said I agree with the above that this should be used to discuss the article . It should discuss what the Trinity is to those that believe in the Trinity and NOT about opposing views. These can be briefly addressed in a small section of the article but certainly not scattered throughout the article as it now is. Thank you. CWr

This is not a religious forum. This is an encyclopedia, and this page is for discussing the content of an article that just happens to be on a religious subject. Thre are no religious qualifications for editing here, and you will find far worse things than "hell" on other pages. (Even in article content -- see WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not censored.)

Proves my point exactly. People with no religious qualifications, training, or knowledge can come in and edit something they have absolutly no knowledge about at all. It makes no sense. And yes you will find worse slang on other pages but that still does not make it appropriate for a civil, educated gentleman or lady to do. Slang is a shortcut for the absence of more powerful words to use. Just my opinion. GWr

"Hell" is not slang. Nor is it even remotely obscene. I suppose one might consider it vulgarity, but you might be surprised how earthy was the language used by many saints. It is a powerful word; look how it made you react! As for qualifications, even an otherwise unqualified editor can read source material and report it accurately. Wikipedia articles are verifiable, not THE TRUTH. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
And I for one am not anonymous. In a real sense, even those who do not choose to edit under their real names as I do aren't anonymous. Their reputations in the community of Wikipedia editors is tied to their usernames. As far as Wikipedia as such is concerned, a logged-in user puts his name on the line with every edit. An IP address, particularly one from an AOL account since it can be used by any one of a large number of people at any given time, does not.
The nature of this encyclopedia would cast serious doubts on its reliability if there was not such a push for verifiability. The best articles here are referenced far more thoroughly than any other encyclopedia in the world, and are therefore more reliable, not less. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Qur'an reference

In the "Other views of the Trinity" section, the statement the Quran, denounces the term "Trinity" is rather problematic. Muhammad certainly denounced what he thought to be the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, but he didn't use any special term for Trinity, but rather only the ordinary basic Arabic word for "three" ثلاثة thalatha. It's doubtful whether a special word for Trinity even existed in the Arabic language as spoken by Muhammad's followers at that time. In any case, the later standard term ثالوث thaluth (see List of Christian terms in Arabic) certainly does not occur in the Qur'an. Any Qur'an translation (and all those linked to are very old) which renders thalatha into English as "Trinity" is interpreting, not literally translating... AnonMoos 16:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] External links

There are a lot. I can't imagine that all of them are covered under WP:EL. I'm taking out some, but someone who knows the article better may want to check and make sure I don't take out anything important. -- Anaraug 08:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that the main concern has traditionally been achieving a reasonable balance between different types of links, and making sure that none of them are to idiosyncratic personal polemics, rather than acertaining that each link is individually "notable". AnonMoos 16:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate Views to the Trinity

This section could use some cleanup. First of all, I changed the section title as it was very misleading. These are not views of the Trinity at all, as most of them reject the Trinity. "Alternate Views to" is much more accurate. Another possible title would be "Other Views of the Christian Godhead". I really do not understand why there is a Dissenting Views section and an Other Views section anyway. I could understand an Other Views section if it solely described the thirteen or so various views of the Trinity, but it only lists views like Arius, Modalism, LDS, etc which fall under Dissenting Views.

Secondly, some of these views, specifically Docetism, have absolutely nothing to do with the Godhead or the Trinity. Docetism falls wholly under the umbrella of Christology. In my opinion it should be removed. Also, the first sentence states that the list includes the most prominent examples, however the list includes some very obscure examples like "the Urantia Book?". Maybe I'm just uneducated, but this does not seem very prominent... at least not along the same lines as Arianism, Modalism, or LDS that actually have prominent roles in the development and history of Christianity. Was there an "Urantian" representative at the Council of Nicea?

Thirdly, Swedenbourgianism is considered by many to be a form of Modalism. And in truth, with only slight variations, he was a modalist. Maybe he could be listed as a prominent example of Modalism along with the likes of Marcellus of Ancyra, Sabellius, Oneness Pentecostals, Miguel de Servet, Praxeas, etc.? Jacob 17:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I sympathize with you to some extent (especially since the article is so long), but prominent groups which claim to be Christian but deny the traditional "orthodox" doctrine of the Trinity are noteworthy in that respect, and matters of Christology are intimately connected with conceptions of the Trinity. AnonMoos 01:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Truthfully, what doctrinal issues are not in some way intertwined? However, Docetism merely speaks to what form Jesus took when He was on earth and does not, it seems to me, say anything of His relationship to the Father or expand on or take away from the doctrine of the Trinity. But you are right in that this would have little impact on the overall article whether it stays or is taken out. It is just a drop in an increasingly large bucket. Jacob 04:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dissent From the Doctrine

I made the following changes to this section:

1. I numbered the main points to make it easier to read. I kept the majority of the content and only removed a few comments that read like "and here is why this dissent is wrong". These views are already laid out in the main article and don't need repetition.

2. I added the section on non-Biblical terminology.

3. I added the titles to each section for easy reference.

I am sure that the wording can be clarified some more, but I feel this makes the section easier to follow and understand. Let me know if anyone has any comments or suggestions. Jacob 02:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I expounded on Biblical usage of the term hypostasis under the non-Biblical terminology section. I think Origen was one of the first to ascribe multiple hypostasis to God but I am not positive. It would be great to include this information as well if anyone knows. Jacob 20:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
While I'm all for presenting evidence that the Trinity is extra-scriptural, the Dissent from Doctrine section is way too long. This material should be on the nontrinitarianism page, with a summary here, like maybe a paragraph or two. This is the page to read about the trinity. Nontrinitarianism is the page to read about alternatives to trinitarianism. Jonathan Tweet 21:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I would be very careful about reducing the section. In many respects I think one could say this is a fork; neither subject exists withou the other. Should you reduce the section inappropriately, it may not provide a balanced article. Edit with a respect for balance and it would be successful. Storm Rider (talk) 00:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
So then in all fairness, how much pro-Trinitarian material should be added to Nontrinitarianism in order to balance that article? TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a long lead section for the Dissent from Doctrine section. What I'd like to do is finalize the long lead section, and then just take all the rest of the section and port it to Nontrinitarianism. I know that some of you nontrinitarians out there are going to think that this is reducing your "footprint," but I think that a short, concise, readable summary makes a better impression than a long, exhaustive section. And in answer to Csernica, there should be pro-Trinitarian material on Nontrinitarianism. But don't forget that trinitarians already get to define Nicene trinitarianism as the only trinitarianism, rejecting other sorts of trinitarianism (such as modalism) and "nontrinitarian." Jonathan Tweet 04:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone deleted these paragraphs from my long lead section. Maybe we should work on the replacement summary here. "Nontrinitarians criticize the trinity on various grounds. It's scriptural support is indirect at best. Various Bible verses seem, on face value, to contradict the Nicene trinity. The Trinity is paradoxical therefore not in line with human reason. The Holy Spirit is left out of many Bible references to the Father and the Son. A triad of deities is a common pagan trope from cultures that influenced early Christianity. Trinitarians, naturally, say they have answers to all these objections. Naturally, nontrinitarian denominations are those that reject early church teaching. They also more likely than mainstream groups to reject other doctrines, such as particular judgment and Hell." Jonathan Tweet 04:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the long treatment of nontrinitarianism and put it on the nontrinitarianism page. Then I expanded the nontrinitarianism summary. A list is better than a paragraph because these items aren't necessarily related. A list is easier to read. The paragraph was mostly one too-long sentence of unrelated clauses. Jonathan Tweet 06:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Much better ... easier to read, and the bulk was cut out of that section. Thanks. Pastordavid 06:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] scripture and the Trinity

I split the section on scripture supporting the Trinity into two subsections, one for verses that portray Jesus as God and others that refer specifically to the Trinity. The verses that portray Jesus as God don't specifically support the Trinity against alternatives such as modalism or the Mormon view of the Godhead. Jonathan Tweet 16:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

And then I did basically the same thing for verses opposing the trinity. This way the reader has an easier time discerning themes and skimming. (We all know how Internet readers love to skim.) Jonathan Tweet 16:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a short section on scholarly criticism repeated below. It could be much longer. I added a reference to John as a major source of "Jesus is God" Bible verses. John is the "high Christology" gospel.

Scholarly criticism of the Trinity in scripture The controversial Jesus Seminar portrays Jesus as a mortal teacher who did not claim to be the Messiah, did not claim identity with God, and did not teach the Trinity[religioustolerance.org/chr_jsem.htm]. The scholars on the seminar reject almost all of Jesus' statements in the Gospel of John and his references to the Trinity in the synoptic gospels as inauthentic.Ref: Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The Five Gospels. HarperSanFrancisco: 1993.

Jonathan Tweet 14:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Latin English

L Shortill, 11/7/06. I changed the word "prosopa" to "hypostases" because "prospera" in Greek is the word for a dramatic mask. It connotes false superficial immitation as opposed to real being. It is not, according to Helmut Koester's lectures and his Introduction to the New Testament, the word used for describing the distinctions between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, I changed the word, "persons" into "real existences." It is traditional to describe God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit as "persons" in English, which testifies to the Western church's debt to the Latin language. The use of "persons" is not, however, logical, since only one of the three "persons" of the Trinity was ever really a person, that is, Jesus Christ; moreover, the use of the words "persons" does not do justice to the original Greek, "hypostases" which denotes a true expression of existence and has nothing whatsoever to do with people, persons, or individuals.

I feel that Wikipedia ought to be as true to the Greek as possible, and that, where possible, the word "person" should be replaced with "real existence." The Trinity is hard enough to understand. Let the article reflect the original nuance of the words so that readers can struggle with this difficult concept without the added impediments of linguistic baggage.

You don't seem to grasp the meaning of the word "person" in English. It is not a synonym for "human being". It is furthermore the most common usage by far, so while I agree that "hypostasis" should be used instead of "prosopon" (even though "prosopon" has come into use since; "hypostasis" is more technically correct and was used patristically) "person" should be used otherwise. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
"Real existences" may be your personally-preferred terminology, but if it has no real established tradition of usage or currency of present-day usage, then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia... AnonMoos 00:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
You say that Wikipedia should be as true to the Greek as possible. Should it then be stated that in the original Biblical Greek, the term "hypostasis" was only once ascribed to God and that this singular reference claims Jesus to be the image of God's hypostasis (whatever your interpretation of hypostasis is)? Jacob 19:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
That would actually be a good addition to the article somewhere. The verse in question (Hebrews 1:3) is an important expression of Trinitarian thought, that the Son is the express (and uncreated) image of the Father. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
It is not just a Trinitarian thought, it is also a very important scripture to Modalistic theology. It shows that the only begotten Son of God (humanity of Jesus) is not a separate hypostasis, but the express image of the Father's hypostasis. The fact that this is the only Biblical hypostasis mentioned in relation to God also shows that a separate and distinct hypostasis is never ascribed to the Holy Spirit as the Trinity claims (at least as far as the Bible is concerned). So Hebrews 1:3 lets us know that multiple hypostasis' in relation to God was most likely a later invention. One God... One Hypostasis. Jacob
I just looked over the "Dissent" section, and I have to say it's awful vague. There are many different Nontrinitarian groups, and I think it would be informative to specify which objections are taken up by which of them. (Although it might be better to do this in Nontrinitarianism. I think the "Dissent" section already fails to summarize concisely enough, considering there's a main article.) What put this in mind is that I was wondering if this use of Heb 1:3 was used anciently, or if it's a more recent reading. "Hypostasis" went through somewhat of a redefinition in Nicaea and Constantinople I. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
You should have read it before I sectioned it off. It was horribly cumbersome. Now it is just somewhat cumbersome. I did not touch the pagan section or the alternate view section. The dissent section is necessary to the article but could easily be rewritten more concisely, however this could be said of much of the article. I listed some suggestions above for the alternate views section but there was not much discussion on it.
Regarding the use of Hebrews 1:3, that is exactly the point of the dissent. There were many terms that were redefined or added during the Nicene era that don't necessarily agree (according to dissenters of course) with the Bible. That should be left to readers to interpret for themselves. I changed the modification back from "Nontrinitarians say" to "Scripture does not record a separate hypostasis to the Son distinct from the Father". The section is about Non-Biblical terminology and specifically about the term hypostasis, in which case this statement is easily verifiable. Anything else waters down the point and makes it too vague, which is what we are trying to avoid. Jacob 02:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I cannot agree with the use of the term "separate". It misrepresents Trinitarian teaching. I now see that you didn't actually use that word in your edit. But surely this wording makes the point too strongly. The Bible doesn't record a "hypostasis" with regard to anyone else, not just Christ, yet every real person is hypostatic (in both the ante- and post-Nicene senses) by definition. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To state "non-Trinitarians claim" would be to get away from the overall thrust of the dissent and make a verifiable statement sound like mere POV. How would you prefer to state that the Bible does not ascribe a distinct hypostasis to the Son? I'm not sure how else one would say it.
Regarding anyone, the article is not talking about anyone. It is referring to three co-equal, co-eternal, distinct hypostasis called the Trinity. Thus the reason for the dissent that the Bible only speaks of one hypostasis and not three. Jacob 07:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
If it were a "verifiable statement" in the sense of only being susceptible to one reading there would be no argument. That's practically a tautology. Of course you don't see it any other way, because it's your POV. It's contrafactual to say there's no other POV here.
The Bible doesn't "ascribe a distinct hypostasis" for, say, Peter apart from John either, but it's obvious it's there, by definition. The point is that Scripture doesn't bother to go around pointing up everyone's hypostasis, so that it does not do so for Christ relative to the Father in so many words is hardly a positive indicator that this is not the case. One might read it that way, clearly some do, and therefore it should be said. But you can't state your POV as if it were fact. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
But I should not leave it up to myself. See [6]. (Again, not to try to convince you, but to demonstrate that this verse need not be read as you insist it must be.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't give any specific interpretation or POV other than to simply say the Bible doesn't ascribe a distinct hypostasis to the Son. This is technically true, which is appropriate since the dissent is of a technical nature. That is what I mean by verifiable, not the interpretation. Obviously the interpretation is POV. But that is what a dissent is... a contrary POV.
Regarding the hypostasis of Peter and John in comparison to the three hypostasis of the Trinity, don't you think that is apples and oranges? Peter and John's distinct hypostasis are not considered by anyone to be a foundational doctrine of Christianity... last I checked. However, for the sake of argument... you would never say that Peter is the express image of John's hypostasis either. The Bible gives special mention to God's hypostasis that is not given to anyone or anything else (including the Son or Holy Spirit... or Father for that matter, just God). And thus the dissent. Jacob 22:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I edited the last sentence to say "The Bible never uses the term in relation to the Holy Spirit or explicitly mentions the Son having a distinct hypostasis from the Father." Maybe this captures the technical nature of the dissent better and sounds less POV. Jacob 22:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
That's better, yes, and I have no objection it it phrased that way. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gregory of Nyssa

The bit about Gregory of Nyssa added by IP 169.229.36.60 could probably have a place in this article -- but not in the first paragraph at the top... AnonMoos 00:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This person is quite relevant to this article, being the one who is mainly responsible for the doctorine of trinity. how is it that he doesn't have a place in the intro? This article is about a doctorine of which Gregory has a big share, so he deserves being mentioned in the intro. 128.32.47.36 05:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
"Mainly responsible"? No, I don't think you can single out St. Gregory quite so strongly. There were the other Cappadocians upon whose work his was founded and closely followed, St. Athanasius, and others. The Nicene Creed, the primary statement of Trinitarian dogma, was probably based on a baptismal creed from the area of Jerusalem submitted by Eusebius of Caesarea. Yes, Gregory of Nyssa is a pivotal figure, but he doesn't stand so alone that he must be mentioned in the intro. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Watt does single him out. He says that The Nicene Creed was mainly influenced by him (also others but mainly him) --128.32.47.36 06:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Who is Watt, and why should I care? Try Pelikan. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
William Montgomery Watt is one of the most prominent scholars of Islam. Please have a look at his page. For example, he has written a chapter in the Cambridge History of Islam. --128.32.47.36 06:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we need an expert in the history of Christianity, not Islam, if we're going to quote reliable sources. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
He is definitely a reliable source. The name of the book is "Muslim-Christian Encounters" where he extensively writes about Islam and Christianity. He himself is a priest anyways. Can you please refer me to the specific WP:RS policy you are refering. --128.32.47.36 06:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to quote (or even cite) a man known primarily for his knowledge of Islam in the introduction of an article on a Christian dogma when Christian scholars are fairly thick on the ground. In any event, the point is that Gregory was not so solely responsible for it that he should be singled out as the one who devised it to the exclusion (in the section) of all others. And once we start to mention the others, we suddenly have a very unsuitable intro. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and the reliable source section that applies is "Beware false authority" which gives preference to acknowledged experts in the field. If this were an article on Christian-Muslim relations, Watt would be a perfectly suitable source. But that's not what this is. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Who else was responsible? Could you please name them? --128.32.47.36 06:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I did, above. It was far from exhaustive. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Isn't Tertullian generally considered the "Father of the Trinity"? 198.169.188.227 21:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
No, he was just the first to use the word. (Which isn't quite the same thing. The official position of Trinitarian Christians is that the Trinity was implicit in the Faith from the beginning, and subsequent development simply explicated it.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

What an odd debate! I cannot think of how, in any real (i.e., verifiable and unbiased) way we can talk about one "father" of the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, Gregory is important, but so are (as has been observed) Athanasius, Basil, the other Gregory (Nanzius), Tertullian, Justin, Eusebius, and Alexander (of alexandria). And lets not forget those that spurred the church into the final orthodox definition - Arius (no council of Nicaea w/o him) and Constantine (or him). To find one "father of the doctrine" is a fruitless task. Pastordavid 21:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scripture lists

The lists of scriptures that are supposedly cited in support or opposition do not add anything to this article. This piece-meal citation isn't the way that scripture is used, either in support or opposition to the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither supporters nor dissenters from the doctrine base their view that, this is the systematic teaching of Scripture, on the meaning of this or that verse, obviously. The lists should be removed, as they are worse than unhelpful. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It would be fine to quote a theologian who interprets a scripture, but stating that a scripture can only be interpreted in a single manner is not supported by history. I suggest we delete the lists in the article and, should editors choose, add back the interpretations of theologians. Storm Rider (talk) 00:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I want to know the Bible verses cited to support the Trinity as well as those cited to oppose it. A reader is going to want to know. Let's add a disclaimer to the effect that nobody really bases their religion on some number of Bible verses pulled out of context. I'd also like to add reference to the opinion of modern nonreligious Bible studies, which is that the Bible references definitely weigh in on the side of the nontrinitarians. If we're going to bring up the Bible as evidence for the Trinity, then it would be dishonest not to state plainly the opinion of modern secular scholarship. Jonathan Tweet 04:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I just looked the verses over again, and they look like they could use some work but they're worth keeping.Jonathan Tweet 04:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Jonathan, the idea is not to remove all scripture references, but to remove unattributed citations. Unattributed citations are just a round-about way of introducing POV into the article. This is different from citing an original source on a subject. The doctrine of the Trinity is not discussed in the Bible - therefore, citations of the Bible are actually references to secondary sources: in this case, the opinion of the editor.
Obviously, writers on this subject will profusely cite biblical texts. These citations belong in the context of their argument. Please reconsider your support of these lists. They do not belong. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
If we could replace the lists with something as straightforward as "the doctrine of the Trinity is not discussed in the Bible," I'd probably be pretty happy, but I bet a lot of Trinitarians wouldn't be. If I'm reading an article on Trinitarianism, it's pretty natural for me to want to know what the Bible says on the topic. These aren't unattributed citations. They're verses out of the Bible. Lots of Christian-content pages have verses out of the Bible. Is it petty point-tallying to tot up verses pro and con? Maybe, but readers want it. And I've learned a lot by reading the verses quoted in such sections on this and other pages. Jonathan Tweet 05:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It makes sense to quote arguments that rely upon verses, or lists of verses. In fact, this is what is being done. For example, the argument "Jesus is not the old testament God" is supported with a list (John 2:16, Acts 3:13, John 20:17, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 110:1). Whose argument is this, other the editor's? The article does not attribute the argument. This is certainly not how these verses would be understood by a Trinitarian. In fact, many non-trinitarians would also reject this interpretation (Mormons, Swedenborgians, and Modalists for example). — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between saying that "the Trinity can be proved from the Bible" (or the teaching should be concluded from it), and saying that "the doctrine of the Trinity is discussed in the Bible". The first statement is true, the second is false or at least misleading - regardless of whether you are Trinitarian or not.

Something similar is true about ecclesiology, ordo salutis, baptism of infants, the Presence in the sacraments, 8th day sabbatarianism, etc. The proof of such doctrines is in understanding the Bible, but no single Biblical statement in itself, or combination of single statements by themselves, contains this proof. Furthermore, you cannot list a verse that supposedly argues against the Trinity that is not part of the formulation of the doctrine. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Information Request

I need information on the direct distinction between the Catholic and Protestant Holy Trinity. It would be helpfull if this was included in the article, but any help would be appriciated. 72.20.223.208 20:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Val

  • Here, Roman Catholics and (Trinitarian)Protestants agree. The disagreement between Christian traditions in this regard lies between "western" theology, including Roman Catholics and Protestants, and those of an "eastern" persuation, including the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox traditions. Here, the basic disagreement is over the "filioque", the West holding that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, while the East maintaining the Spirit proceeds from the Father only. --Midnite Critic 21:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dissent section: "Main points"

The section Main Points of Dissent appears to contain a quote of something, ipsissima verba, complete with numbered footnote references in brackets. If that's so, is this material copyrighted? Or is it original to the article, after all; incorrectly pasted into the edit window perhaps? At least the text should be cleaned up, removing the artifacts of its original source or fixing its footnote links if they are correct - I can't tell. The section also betrays doctrinal distinctives of certain relatively small non-trinitarian sects, which others would not regard as "Main points". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I reverted

I reverted a series of large-scale arguments that sought to muddle the subject of the article. This article is about the Trinity and should focus on presenting that dogma as taught. The arguments against it should be summarized of course, but this is not a debating forum and we have an article on Nontrinitarianism where this can be the focus. This much material, besides some of the positive misstatements that were made and which stated certain conclusions as fact, badly unbalances the article. Furthermore, the bulk of the material was clear copyright violations from [7] and [8]. Please add original text only, and present arguments, don't make them. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. First, the Trinity is held as a doctrine. Actually it's a dogma, but "doctrine" is more general and includes those who believe in the Trinity but not dogmatically. That this is denied by a tiny minority of those who call themselves "Christian" does not make it any less a doctrine, and it is not POV to say so. Second, we do not use those little notations to mark weasel wording. If there's some point that an editor feels should be better supported, he can say so here. Actually, although that particular sentence is weasel-worded that's not really an issue. It's introducing the topic, which is discussed in detail further down the article. Third, there are issues of relevancy. Yes, the NT (and the OT too) speaks of God's relationship to creation (added) and humanity, but that's neither here nor there as far as the doctrine of the Trinity is concerned, which is a matter strictly of the relationships among the three Persons. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

1) Yes the Trinity is held as a doctrine and the intro still says so - no one is trying to take that out. The trinity is also used as a title or name for God - for some reason you are trying to take this out. As evidence that the word Trinity is used as a title for God who is known this way I need point no further than this article, where it happens several times. That is why I put it in the intro - to help this article make sense. For example, the section of scripture cited to support the trinity quotes Matthew 28:19 and says this directly references the Trinity. But it doesn't mean it references the dogma, it means it references God in a Trinitarian way.
2) I am not sure which weasel wording you are talking about. I might agree with you here. If you are critiquing the psots by Stuart Chamberlin - yes I am glad they have gone.
3) You may believe the doctrine of the Trinity "is a matter strictly of the relationships among the three Persons" and that it "that's neither here nor there" as far as God's relationship to creation. Mainstream Christianity teaches that the Trinity is very much concerned with God's relationship with creation - as ewvidenced by the discussion in this article about salvation and the gift of the Spirit. Either way, it doesn't mean you can edit out of this article any sections with which you disagree. You may need to become more familiar with the discussion on the 'ecconomic' and 'immanent' trinity that is already included in this article. I specifically referenced this in my edit summary when I added the phrase about God's relationship with humanity.
4) You seem to misunderstand the way the word "only" is used in english sentances. If "the Bible only speaks of God" - it fails to sing, act, dance or hum about God. If on the other hand "it speaks only of God" then we have a gramatical meaning intended.--Just nigel 07:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
1) No, it's certainly not a name, and is more a description or label than a title. I could find no instances in the article where it's used as you say. (I might have missed one, but they must not be frequent and if they exist are probably inadvertent.) In any event, it's primarily a doctrine, and any other use is strictly secondary, or shorthand for naming all three Persons.
2) When you added that little "by whom?" notation, you were flagging a use of the passive voice often called "weasel wording". In general this is indeed improper, but it's not so much a problem in a general overview when the statement is later expanded upon.
3) Yes, Christians believe that the three Persons relate to humanity and creation distinctively, but that as such is not what the Trinity is about. One could note the same thing and still come up with modalism, for instance. (In fact, modalism describes the Trinity in strictly these terms.) It is not particularly characteristic of Trinitarianism.
4) A problem with the original phrasing I failed to notice, and have now corrected.
And I will use reverts whenever I think them appropriate. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Csernica you have now reverted my edits three times! This is considered a form of edit war and a breach of Wikipedia rules. "Reversion wars between competing individuals are contrary to Wikipedia's core principles, reflect badly on both participants, and often result in blocks being implemented due to violations of the three revert rule." I am reporting your login.--Just nigel 07:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I only reverted you twice. The first revert was primarily aimed at the copyright violations inserted by Stuart. Removing them ought to have been the first order of business. Such large intra-article essays, especially when they are so strongly POV in one direction, are almost always cut-and-pastes of someone else's material and are easy to identify with a Google search. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I have discovered that administrators generally don't act on WP:3RR violations until the fourth revision. So at this stage no report has been lodged. In the meantime does someone else want to comment on this dispute?--Just nigel 07:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
That's because there is no 3RR violation until the fourth reversion. I'm sure that given some time, someone else will comment, but this has progressed with some speed. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
1)Just because you do not know that Trinity is used as a name for God, does not mean that it is not so. Your "certain"ty and "strict"ness in this matter seems misplaced. If you doubt it or find it unusual you can look for references or ask others for examples. I happen to know a couple - if that will help you - How about "The Brestplate of St Patrick" c5th Century: "I bind unto myself today/ the strong name of the Trinity". As another example I already pointed to the heading "References to the Trinity" within this article and the subsequent use of Matthew which does not describe a dogma but God. It was becasue of this that I expanded the introduction. Did you not find this example?
2) Yes we agree. I was hoping to help that contributor see the error of their weasle ways ;) But that section did not belong here. Thanks.
3) Who says the immanent trinity is not what the Trinity is about? You? Here again you seem to say what you think is true and then claim this for all Christians or theologians of the Trinity. I think you are mistaken. I won't quote examples here in the comments when the article already includes quotes of people who state that the Trinity is about both the ecconomic and the immanent. (Similarities that the Trinity may or may not have to modalism are not relavant to this point.)
4) Great. One less issue to resolve.--Just nigel 09:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
1) I'm not denying things I don't know are true, I'm denying things I know are incorrect. Let's take your example: it doesn't really show what you want it to. Try another word in place of "Trinity". If I used the phrase, "the name of the president", would that mean that "president" is a name? Obviously not. But even if it were, the point is that the Trinity is most primarily a doctrine and ought to be described as that first and most forcefully. Other uses are secondary.
3) You'd be better off using unambiguous phrasing. In the West the ontological (or essential) Trinity and economic (or immanent) Trinity are not distinguished -- in other words, the relations within God are seen reflected in the manner in which God acts.This is not as true in the East.[9] But I'm afraid this is relevant in any event. If we're trying to describe Trinitarianism as it is, then we need to pay attention to those aspects of it that distinguish it from other doctrines. There is very little disagreement on how the Trinity has acted among those who accept the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit. What makes Trinitarianism Trinitarianism as such is the distinctive way in which it describes the relationships among the Three. Even a modalist would say "Trinity" and agree with how each person has acted in salvation history, all the while meaning something entirely different by "person". TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length

This article is far too long. In particular, the "dissent from the doctrine" section seems disportionately long. Absolutely it is right to point out that people dissent from Trinitarianism and provide a brief detail of the most common reasons for dissent, but in-depth details about every way how and every reason why people dissent should either be placed in (1) articles about those people (or churches/denominations) or in (2) the nontrinitarian article. Pastordavid 20:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

See Dissent from Doctrine, above. I intend to expand the lead section of that section, and then remove all the remaining material, leaving a concise and fair summary. Jonathan Tweet 15:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out (exactly why I like to post in discussions before editing some articles). I think that sounds like a great plan, and very balanced -- especially if you put a "main article: nontrinitarianism" header on the section. Thanks for undertaking that task. Pastordavid 16:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand the need to make this article more concise, but the dissent section has now been watered down to the point of being a waste of space. You speak of shortening the article and of course some authors would immediately say, "Let's remove most of the dissent section(snicker, snicker, snicker)." Of course the rest of the article is absolutely atrocious in regards to conciseness. For instance, the opening sentence has 50+ words in it and would be difficult to make more confusing. Of course this is an article on the Trinity so we can be as verbose as we want, but only in certain areas (wink, wink)... Maybe we should copy and paste all of Augustine's 30 volumes on the Trinity to really prove our point!

What is troubling is that several of the primary areas of dissent were left out entirely such as the doctrine's moving away from the strict monotheism of Judaism or its reliance on extra-biblical terminology for much of its support. Both of these things stand on their own and should never have been removed. I know they were represented in a balanced way because I helped write them with constant input from other trinitarian and non-trinitarian authors. When something was deemed unbalanced we debated and improved. I'm all for conciseness, but not if it means sacrificing only the dissent while leaving the overall article as is. It is bad for the article. I plan to re-add them and it will be concise.

Now I know what's coming... "there's an article for non-trinitarianism"! Yes, but this is the primary article that people are going to read and should therefore fairly represent the dissent. Not to start a firestorm or anything, but it does make me wonder why the strongest points of dissent were left out completely. Are we trying to keep certain things from the eyes of researchers? Jacob 20:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted paragraph

I removed the following paragraph, because it does not meet the scholarly standards or tone of the surrounding section. It does contain some discussion of a significant passage; however, it is more relevant to Christology, rather than theology proper:

Conclusions about how best to explain the association of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit with the one God developed gradually and controversially. Christians had to reconcile their belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ with their belief in the one-ness of God. In doing so, some stressed the one-ness to the point of considering Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit as merely three modes or roles in which God shows himself to mankind; others stressed the three-ness to the point of positing three divine beings, with only one of them supreme and God in the full sense. Only in the fourth century were the distinctness of the three and their unity brought together and expressed in mainline Christianity in a single doctrine of one essence and three persons. Some Christians still debate the differences found in the New Testament, where Christ declared "I and my Father are one," but also prayed on the cross, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?), which is often explained that first sentence refers to Jesus' divine nature and the second one to his human nature; another explanation is that the prayer on the cross quotes Psalm 22:1 in order to name the entire Psalm, interpreted as prophesying Jesus' crucifixion; most mainstream Christians take the view that the prayer comes from Jesus's anguish at being temporarily separated from the Trinity "mystic oneness" in order that he could take the punishment for sin on behalf of all mankind; and still others (not the mainstream view) say that it is a ridiculous notion that this man is yelling at himself that he is abandoning himself.

— Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 00:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lengthy treatment of proof texts

The new additions add much detailed argumentation for an article on a relatively general topic. Would the editor consider creating a separate article? In my opinion, the new material should be reverted or moved to a new article, assuming that it is not a copyvio. In addition, the neutrality of the arguments could be improved. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 05:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I just deleted it. Y'all back me up here now! This stuff was either original research or plagiarized. (My gut says the former, but I could be wrong.) In any event, it is debate material, highly POV, and not appropriate in this article (Nontrinitarianism, maybe, but even there is arguable, given the polemic tone.) --Midnite Critic 06:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
It was plagiarized. [10] [11] [12] I reverted some of the same material myself a few days ago, and from the same user too, although he seems to have located some new material. It's pretty easy to locate via Google. It's mainly ripped directly from dedicated JW sites. TCC (talk) (contribs) 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scholarly Consensus and Trinity in the Bible

In the light of articles such as: Gieschen, Charles A. "The Real Presence of the Son Before Christ: Revisiting an Old Approach to Old Testament Christology" [online]Concordia Theological Quarterly 68 (2004) no. 2:105-126. Available from http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1796, it is overreaching to claim that there is a scholarly consensus that the Bible does not contain the doctrine of the trinity. I can provide quite a few others, if needed to make this point. Can a cite be provided that says this? --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

It may be over-reaching, and we can debate that in the talk; but the statements you tagged as "needing citiation" had citations at the end of them, where they belonged. (Citations #2 and #3 in the current revision of the article). Pastordavid 16:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Appeals to authority are still appeals to POV. They are arguments masquerading as facts. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm also interested by the lack of a date for the "Encyclopedia of Religion" source - lack of date itself seems fairly common on Wikipedia, but a name like "Encyclopedia of Religion" had me instantly thinking "That's either non-scholarly or waaay out of date" after my reading. My instinct (which I have a tendency to trust) is that that particular source isn't regarded as particularly authoritative in modern scholarship. I've tried looking it up (albeit not very hard) and the only thing I can find of that name is a 320 page DK encyclopedia, which isn't long enough by a long way!
(I do want to clarify though that I'm not doubting that the original editor used that encyclopedia in good faith.)
In any case, I think the whole section needs substantial work - poor grammar, poor writing, and it consists of statements that don't really illuminate much the relation between the Bible and the christian doctrine of the trinity. It seems to only show two correct things - the bible doesn't explicitly teach trinity as such, and the church nonetheless argued about what the bible meant for the doctrine of the trinity, without really dealing with how the two relate (i.e. how Christians believe the bible can be held to support a position it doesn't explicitly state).TheologyJohn 19:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I put the fact tags in because I suspect this source, which is academic and normally quite precise in its language quite likely does not make such a broad statemnet. I may not be able to get to it until January to check it. If someone else can check it and it backs this language, the tags can go, or, if a source can be found that says this, the tags can go. Until then or until I can check it myself, I believe the tags to be appropriate. --CTSWyneken(talk) 21:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The cited sources support the statement as it is written now, but not as it was written when you added the tags. The Bible does not contain either the word "Trinity" or the explicit formulation of the doctrine, although as the cited sources say (and as the article goes on to explain), the doctrine is derived from the Bible as a whole (rather than any single biblical statement). This is a well-known fact, and not the discovery of "the consensus of Modern theologians and exegetes". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not a matter of "some scholars" saying that the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, or some claim that they make. It is a fact that the doctrine is nowhere stated explicitly, although the believer in the church can be confident that this doctrine is fully consistent with the Scriptures and the Christian rule of faith, and that to deny it is to deny the Scriptures and the Christian faith. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
"and that to deny it is to deny the Scriptures and the Christian faith."
To disagree with a doctrine that is neither explicitly taught nor ever actually formulated in the Bible is to deny the Christian faith? Comments like this are ridiculously arrogant and are a negative reflection on all good trinitarians. Maybe you should come out of your cell of small-mindedness and join the rest of us. Really, it's nice out here. Jacob 15:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whether Mkmcconn is correct or not, is that kind of insult really necessary? Especially on a talk page which is supposed to be about the article, not the doctrine, and least of all each other!TheologyJohn 17:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
All non-trinitarians were just labelled as "deniers of the Christian faith" and you take offense at my calling it small-minded? I am truly amazed. Pray tell how his comments added to the article or the discussion at hand? Jacob 18:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not that you disagreed with him that I took offense it, it's that you called him "ridiculously arrogant" and you then commanded him to "come out of your cell of small-mindedness". You may or may not agree with what he stated, but that kind of mud-slinging really isn't necessary. His comments contributed to the discusssion at hand, because we were talking about what the bible said about trinity, and it's relation to the christian faith, with the end of improving that section. He correctly observed that the bible is quite clear on certain things which indicate the trinity (e.g. there's no real scholarly debate that John holds to the divinity of Christ), and concluded (though I do not think I agree with him) that one cannot hold these things that the bible is clear on without observing the later formularies of the doctrine.TheologyJohn 12:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
You mean to tell me that claiming all non-trinitarians deny Christ somehow improves the section and that calling this small minded is "mud-slinging"? How does condemning others that disagree with you improve the section? Maybe you should check your bias meter. My "ridiculously arrogant" statement was in clear reference to his comments and therefore appropriate. My "come out of your cell of small mindedness" comment was due to my being peeved at someone so carelessly casting millions of people out of the Christian faith. Of course, none of this is appropriate to the article, but since nobody responded to his comment, including yourself, I felt the need to respond. Jacob 13:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, if someone stated that all Trinitarians deny Christ, would you consider that "improving the section"? Jacob 13:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
If someone stated in the article either that all trinitarians deny Christ, or that all non-trinitarians deny Christ, I would improve the section, since neither of those positions can be simply stated according to WP:NPOV. I would have no objection to those opinions being mentioned as opinions in the article, if they are significant enough to be mentioned. But that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about some things that someone said on a talk page. Some things which I have already said that I tended to disagree with. All he was stating was something about the centrality and certainty of the doctrine of the trinity for the Christian faith. He did not do so with the intention of insulting anyone who doesn't hold those opinions - anymore than if I were to say "people who do not believe in God are not Christians" (even though some claim to be), I would be insulting those people. I would be stating an opinion about the content of Christianity - that it involves a belief in God.
You may disagree with his opinion about the content of Christianity, you may even find his opinions repulsive (finding something offensive is after all a subjective opinion), but there is no need for you to insult him when you do it. While your "ridiculously arrogant" statement was referred to his comments, one cannot apply adjectives that refer to personality (like arrogant) to someones comments without them inherently being applied to that person themselves. The clear implication of saying that someone made arrogant comments is that that person is arrogant to make them, and any reasonably sensible reader will see that.
In any case, I'm going away for a week tomorrow morning, so I won't be around to respond to your comments, unless you leave them in the next few hours. I simply ask that in future, when you find something objectionable, you think carefully about how you express that. I suspect that your mistake here was simply a result of not stopping to think before you wrote.TheologyJohn 15:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with you that a statement like "anyone who disagrees with me has denied Christianity" adds to the overall discussion or is appropriate. I also disagree that what is said of a person's philosophy has to apply to that individual personally. The idea that "anyone who disagrees with me has denied Christ" seems arrogant and small-minded. That is my opinion of this train of thought and should not be taken to mean the person is arrogant and small-minded. I chose colorful language to reflect my displeasure at the comments. Remember... arrogant applied to the comments and small-minded applied to the train of thought, which I described as a cell. This is called literary license and you can find it in any book by Mark Twain. If you choose to apply it personally to that individual then that is your decision and your right.
However, everything you are accusing me of applies to the statement "Non-trinitarians are not Christians." Jacob 17:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to do what I probably should have done a lot time ago, and take this discussion to our relevant talk pages. I'm confident that anyone reading this. I would, however, like to point out two things before I do so; firstly, that no-one was stating "anyone who disagrees with me has denied Christianity" - that's your interpretation of what someone else said, but I don't think that's correct. It is of course appropriate for theists to say "anyone who disagrees with me on the existence of God has denied Christianity" - it wasn't that he was saying that his views were the definition of Chritianity, but rather making a statement about the centrality a core doctrine of Christianity - and one that most Christians would agree with. (The entry does state, "The majority of Christians are trinitarians and regard belief in the trinity as a test of orthodoxy.") I want to say this I don't think it's fair to leave Mark's reputation in any way damaged as a result of my stupidity in handling this.
I'd also like to add that from your comments on the talk page, I seem to have misinterpreted what you were saying as a personal attack. I therefore want to state that after your comments, I no longer regard them as such, and am sorry for any offense caused.TheologyJohn 18:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
"To deny (the Trinity) is to deny the Scriptures and the Christian faith." and "non-trinitarians are not Christians" are synonymous statements since to deny the Christian faith necessitates one being non-Christian. Irregardless, this has been an engaging and interesting waste of time. Thank you for your comments and I have not taken offense at anything you have said and I hope likewise for you. Constructive debate makes us all better and stronger people. Jacob 19:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your interaction with my comments. I assure you that they were not meant to insult anyone, but to express an aspect of what it means to "believe in the church" - it is a belief that arises directly out of the doctrine of the Trinity (although, from your comments I'm unsure that I've made myself clear to you). I am sorry that we differ. I admire TheologyJohn's concern to defend the reputation of another, both, mine and Jacob's. This is more than kind. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The source "The Encyclopedia of Religion. Second Edition. Edited by Lindsay Jones, 2005" is a normal academic encyclopedia. I did a google search and found that for example, Prof. Jeffrey J. Kripal has written some of the articles in Encyclopedia of religion. [13]. Adel Allouche has also written an article there [14]. I don't know how many volumes it has but the Trinity article is in vol.14. Karbar1 23:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, my instincts were evidently wrong.TheologyJohn 23:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various Academic Sources

An excerpt "Encyclopedia of Religon", Vol. 14, p.9360, on Trinity:

"Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctorine of Trinity, even though it was customary in past dogmatic tracts on the Trinity to cite texts like Genesis 1:26, "Let us make humanity in our image, after our likeness" (see also Gn. 3:22, 11:7, Is. 6:2-3) as proof of plurality in God. Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God as Word (davar), spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presense (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.
"Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ; "Father" is not a title for the first person of Trinity but a synonym for God. Early liturgical and creedal formulas speak of God as "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"; praise is to be rendered to God through Christ (see opening greeting in Paul and deutero-Paul). There are other binitarian texts (e.g. Rom 4:24 ; 8:11; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; 1 Tm. 2:5-6; 6:13;2 Tm. 4:1), and a few triadic texts (the strongest are 2 Cor. 13:14 and Mt 28:19; 19 Gal. 3:11-14). Christ is sent by God and the Spirit is sent by Christ so that all may be returned to God...."

From Britannica Encyclopedia:

in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.distinctness among the three, but at the cost of their equality and hence of their unity (subordinationism); the second came to terms with their unity, but at the cost of their distinctness as “persons” (modalism). It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons. The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.

The Columbia Encyclopedia:

[Lat.,=threefoldness], fundamental doctrine in Christianity, by which God is considered as existing in three persons. While the doctrine is not explicitly taught in the New Testament, early Christian communities testified to a perception that Jesus was God in the flesh; the idea of the Trinity has been inferred from the Gospel of St. John. The developed doctrine of the Trinity purports that God exists in three coequal and coeternal elements—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (see creed 1). It sees these “persons” as constituted by their mutual relations, yet does not mean that God in his essence is Father, or a male deity. Jesus spoke of a relation of mutual giving and love with the Father, which believers could also enjoy through the Spirit. The Trinity is commemorated liturgically in the Western Church on Trinity Sunday. For systems denying the Trinity, see Unitarianism.

Oxford Dictionary of the Bible

On Trinity it writes:

"The Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the NT: it was defined as a result of continous exploration of the biblical data. The one God is made known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; each is God , but each is a distinct person. The gospel of John provides most of the NT foundations for the doctrine; Jesus repeatedly refers to his Father who sent him and is one with him (John 14:7-10) and the Holy Spirit (John 16:13-15). The final commission of Jesus is reported in trinitarian terms (Matt. 28:19) and Paul uses similar language of the gifts of the Spirit (I Cor. 12: 4 ff) and in his benediction (2 Cor 13:13). This experience of the Trinity was thrashed out in debate and treatises, and was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE."

The Oxford Companian of the Bible says:

"Trinity. Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the cannon.

Later believers systematized the diverse references to God, Jesus and the Spirit found in the New Testament in order to fight against the heretical tendencies of how the three are related. Elaboration on the concept of a Trinity also serves to defend the church against charges of di- or tritheism. Since the Christians have come to worship Jesus as a god, how can they claim to be continuing the monotheistic tradition of the God of Israel? Various answers are suggested, debated, and rejected as heretical, but the idea of a Trinity-one God subsisting in three persons and one substance- ultimately prevails.

While New Testament wriiters say a great deal about God, Jesus and the Spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do.

The earliest New Testament evidence for a tripartite formula comes in 2 Cor 13:13 where Paul wishes that "the grace of the Lord Jesus, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit" be with the people of Corinth. It is possible that this three-part formula derives from later litugrical usage and was added to the text of 2 Corinthians as it was copied. In support of the authenticity of the passage, however, it must be said that the phrasing is much closer to Paul's understandings of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit than to a more fully developed concept of the Trinity. Jesus, refered to not as Son but as Lord and Christ, is mentioned first and is connected with the central Pauline theme of grace. God is referred to as a source of love, not as father, and the Spirit promotes sharing withing community. The word "holy" does not appear before "spirit" in the earliest manuscript evidence for this passage.

A more familiar formulation is found in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands the diciples to go out and babtize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The phrasing probably reflects baptismal practice in churches at the Mathew's time or later if this line is interpolated. Elsewhere Matthew records a special connection between God the Father and Jesus the Son (e.g. 11:27), but he falls short of claiming that Jesus is equal with God (cf. 24:36)

It is John's gospel that suggests the idea of equality between Jesus and God ("I and the Father are one"; 10.30). The Gospel starts with the affirmation that in the beginning Jesus as Word "was with God and ...was God" (1.1) and ends (chap.21 is more likely a later addition) with Thomas's confession of faith to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (20:28). The fourth Gospel elaborates on the role of the Holy Trinity as the Paraclete sent to be an advocate for the believers.

For the community of John's gospel, these passages provide assurance of the presence and power of God both in the ministary of Jesus and the ongoing life of the community. Beyond this immediate context, however, such reference raise the question of how Father, Son, and the Spirit can be distinct and yet the same. This issue is debated over the following centuries and is only resolved by agreement and exclusion during the christological disputes and creedal councils of the fourth century and beyond.

While there are other New Testament texts where God, Jesus and the Spirit are referred to in the same passages (e.g. Jude 20-21), it is important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear. An example is 1 Peter 1.1-2, in which the salvation is addressed to those who have been chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father in holiness of spirit." This reference may be to the holiness of spirit of believers, but translators consistently take it as the Holy Spirit in order to complete the assumed trinitarian character of the verse:"who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctioned by the Spirit" (NRSV). This translation not only imposes later trinitarian perspective on the text but also diminishes the important use of the spirit of human beings elsewhere in 1 Peter (e.g. 3.4, 19)

Karbar1 23:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the references. I have no objection to including substance of these quotes in the article, providing citation information for them, hopefully complete, is included. I think we need to avoid overreaching, however, since a number of exegetes, Dr. Gieschen (see above) for one, maintain that the doctrine of the trinity is indeed contained in the Scripture, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament. That's not to say that the formulation "One God in Three Persons" or the word Trinity are there. I think that's what all this "explicit" termenology is about. Since this is vacation, I do not have time to fully participate, but in January I'll do some work to substantiate that. In the mean time, have fun! --CTSWyneken(talk) 01:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Bob that the correct summation of these sources is that, the word "Trinity" and that the formulation of the doctrine is not in the Bible. But of course, Trinitarianism is not founded on either one of these ideas. My chief objection is to the "Encyclopedia of Religion", which alone among these sources seems to imply that this fact is a discovery of modern theologians and exegetes. And worse, based on this false implication, it allows the insinuation that a trinitarian interpretation of scripture has been discredited to the satisfaction of a consensus of theologians and exegetes of our time - which of course is not true. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I see the word "most" is now in the text. Since none of the quotations above make this claim, I think it needs to go until documented. I've changed the text to reflect this is the opinion of the ER. I'm not wedded to the language, so if someone wishes to play with the wording to reflect the opinions cited above, as long as we do not end up saying most or the majority of scholars hold this view without a cite that says such, I'm content until I have a chance to research the question. --CTSWyneken(talk) 12:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The encyclopedia's wouldn't say that the Trinity isn't in the Bible unless it was well-settled among secular scholars. It's fair to say most scholars conclude this. It's not fair to say that a single reference work is the source of this conclusion. If there's any real question about whether the trinity appears in the Bible, then cite a neutral reference work to that effect. Jonathan Tweet 00:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The article should not say that the Trinity isn't in the Bible, but only that it is not explicitly and unambiguously stated somewhere. If it were stated (as in those cases where it is strongly intimated, like Matthew 28:16-20, or 2 Corinthians 13:14), the argument would be concerning whether those statements are actually part of the Bible - an issue of textual criticism. In all cases, disagreement concerns whether or how (if by eisegesis, or by editing) the doctrine is imported into Scripture. What the article should say (and I think it does now), is that with very few exceptions scholarly disagreement concerns whether the doctrine of the Trinity makes explicit Scripture's systematic doctrine - not whether it is explicitly stated in the Bible. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
That's not necessarily the case. For example, note that the Encyclopedia of Religion states that "exegetes...are in agreement" when I've produced without much work one exegete who disagrees. There are more, although how many more is hard for me to say without research. Among scholars at my institution, for example, it is agreed that the substance of the trinity is taught in both the Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament. What is not in the Bible is the term "trinity" and the formulas developed later. My point is that there is a difference in the scholarly community and we should do one of several things: find a citable source that says a majority of scholars do not see it in the Bible, craft language that includes all views or do some research to determine how much of each view to represent. For now, I think we should stick with naming the source explicitly in the text and stating what it says. --CTSWyneken(talk) 01:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

These scholars at your institution (a university, I'm guessing?), what encyclopedias do they refer to when they want to see their conclusions confirmed? Not Britannica Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companian of the Bible, Columbia Encyclopedia, or Oxford Dictionary of the Bible. For that matter, would you care to explain the unanimity of these encyclopedia references? If the issue is controversial, why don't these authors condition their statements? Why don't they say, "Some scholars think that the trinity isn't in the Bible"? My explanation is that this is a settled issue in religious studies. What's yours? Jonathan Tweet 01:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Not trying to jump into the fray at the 9th hour ... just an observation. It is very difficult in any contested point of Christian theology to say "all scholars agree." You name a position that is generally accepted, and I'll wager I can find a published author who (a) teaches somewhere, (b) claims the name of Christ, and (c) disagrees. Unfortunately, everything is up for grabs. It is much better to state that "many" scholars, or the "majority" of scholars. I think that is, simply put, the most responsible way to deal with the issue. That said, Jonathon, I think you have a point. I would, quite simply, just state in a different manner for the sake of consensus on this site. Most biblical scholars agree that the human authors of the Bible did not have the fully-developed understanding of the Trinity. Something to that effect. Wyneken belongs to a church that does not (as I understand it, but I could be wrong) accept historical criticism of the Bible -- a position that puts the profs at the seminary where he works in the minority in relation to most other biblical scholars. The work quoted above, the COncordia Quarterly, comes out of the same denomination. Pastordavid 02:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Pastor, you say, "It is much better to state that "many" scholars, or the "majority" of scholars." I disagree because it's not accurate. One could reasonably say that a "majority" of anthropologists don't consider "race" to be real because it's an open issue in the community. Most don't, many do, and there's a debate. That the trinity isn't in the Bible, on the other hand, is not an open issue. If we say a "majority" of scholars conclude that the trinity isn't in the Bible, it sounds like an open issue, like race in anthropology. But it's not an open issue. It's a settled issue among historical scholars. If it's an open issue, it's only within the Christian commnity. It's an open issue as a religious issue, not as a historical one. Jonathan Tweet 03:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope it's OK to insert my comments in here because I'm replying to Jonathan Tweet, not to CTSWyneken. I have to say I think you're making a false dichotomy between religious academia and the church. Many, if not most, religious academics have some level of involvement in educating future clergy etc.

Wyneken has shown that it's not a settled issue among scholars by citing one who disagrees - similarly, I have spoken personally with people who don't agree.. Elsewhere, you ask where these scholars get their info from, if not these texts - well, most of these texts are actually relatively lay-person oriented. I have to admit that Encyclopedia of Religion is something I'm completely unfamiliar with, and I suspect from its length that it's a pretty academic text, but the others aren't aimed at academics (though they are written by them, as far as I am aware.)

It's an almost universal law of any kind of biblical studies that nobody agrees upon anything. Many (probably most) scholars regard it as pretty much a settled issue, for example, that Paul did not write the pastoral epistles; however, there's a substantial minority of scholars who hold that he did, but when I've dealt with lecturers on such subjects, the fact of those scholars wasn't ever mentioned until I wanted to look into a quite significantly greater depth on the subject of the pastorals (and their relationship to the New Perspective). If they couldn't be bothered to mention those ideas in lectures, they likely wouldn't have bothered to mention it in an introductory article, but they were aware of such ideas. Plus we all know that many introductory articles are written from the perspective of whatever expect wrote them - experts are flawed.TheologyJohn 13:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the scholars I can speak for at the moment are only from my institution -- I'm on vacation and do not have access to the resources that would allow me to do a thorough search. I will do that in January. I'm willing to bet that scholars from conservative church bodies similar to mine will agree with him. The question really is how large the number of such academics is.
As to the question, the fact that I've produced one scholar (Ph. D. from the University of Michigan, book on the Angel of the Lord published by Brill, articles in other scholarly journals beyond this one) shows that we cannot say "all scholars" or some phrase that implies that everyone agrees with the absolute: "the doctrine of the trinity is not in the Bible" or some such is false. Not even all the sources above agree. Most are careful to say "not explicit." Only the Encyclopedia of Religion is absolute here. What all will agree is that the Bible does not use the term trinity or formally develop the formulas of the Church. As long as a substantial number of scholars hold that the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament teach both the absolute unity of God and also name the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as divine separately, then we need to find a way to say this and not put words in the mouth of others. See you later this week. --CTSWyneken(talk) 12:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
TJ, "you're making a false dichotomy between religious academia and the church". Apparently, it's the same dichotomy that is accepted as noncontroversial by experts so renowned for their knoweldge and neutrality that they're tapped to write encyclopedia entries in nonsectarian, standard reference works. I'm not sure how that dichotomy is justified or defined, but if it's good enough for Britannica, we need a really good reason not to accept it. "Trinitarians manage to read the Trinity into the text" is insufficient reason. Jonathan Tweet 17:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The 'false dichotomy' comment was related to your implied comment that while those who teach as secular universities can be trusted, those at religious institutions can't - aren't scholarly or academic or something.

I think (though you're welcome to correct me) that behind a lot of your comments is the assumption that the "religious" is inherently biased, whereas the "secular" is neutral. I think that assumption is inherently flawed, but regardless of my opinions, it is contrary to official wikipedian policy (e.g. WP:NOV states "There's no such thing as objectivity. Everybody with any philosophical sophistication knows that.") I realise that I may well be countering a presupposition that you do not hold, it's just a common one that makes intuitive sense to me after reading your comments.

You may regard "Trinitarians manage to read the trinity into the text" as an insufficient reason, but WP:NPOV (e.g. "all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one") requires us to give appropriate hearing to all published literature, regardless of which we ourselves find most convincing, weighing the amount of space taken up in the article largely according to the widespreadness of the views etc..TheologyJohn 20:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

CTSW, since there are scholars who see the Trinity in the Bible, maybe we need a term for "scholars whose conclusions are well-respected enough to rate treatment in standard, nonsectarian encyclopedia (as opposed to those scholars whose conclusions only find their way into sectarian encyclopedia)." I suggest "mainstream." Then we can say that "Mainstream scholars conclude that the trinity etc." This wording implies that there are various other scholars who disagree (putting them at odds with Britannica, etc., and thus out of the mainstream). Jonathan Tweet 17:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like an entirely reasonable (indeed, ideal) suggestion to me (as long as "mainstream" isn't WP:Avoid weasel words).TheologyJohn 20:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "the Trinity in the Bible" is problamatic not because of what is or isn't in the Bible, but becasue of what people are looking for when they read it:

  1. If "Trinity" is an orthodox Christian doctrine employing Greek philosophy and codified from the the 200s to solve christological and other theological controversies - then of course it is not in the Bible because the doctrine did not exist when the Bible was written ... although note it will be important to these 'Christians' to show that such a doctrine is consistent with the Bible.
  2. If "Trinity" is who God is and the way God has always been - then of course the "Trinity" is in the Bible becasue "God" is in the Bible and there is no reason to read any reference to God any other way.
  3. If "Trinity" is how God is revealed to humanity through the divine act of salvation - then it may be an emerging theme not really mentioned at all in the Old Testament, a bit more implicit in the New Testament and found the closest it gets to explicit articulation in the latest John sources in the Bible.
  4. If "Trinity" is an heretical Christian doctrine employing pagan philosophy and codified in the late 300s to solve Roman Empire rivalries - then of course it is not in the Bible because the doctrine is a load of bunkum ... although note it will be important to these 'Christians' to show how the doctrine is inconsistent with the Bible.

My solution is to cut out the 'most scholars' middle man (so to speak) and say something bolder that can't be denied: The Bible does not include a description of God that codifies the doctrine of the Trinity as articulated by mainstream churches today. If anyone wants to disagree let them try to provide a Biblical quote ... and one that not only names "Father" "Son" and "Spirit" all in the same sentence but also includes concepts of "personhood", "being", "substance", "essence", "union of perfect love", "mutual in-dwelling", "eternally proceeding" etc. (an impossible task becasue as I said, there isn't one!) With that out of the way, we can then go on to begin describing what the Bible does say, and the various weight and interpretations that different scholars give to different verses/concepts.--Just nigel 18:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you're missing trinity in a less technical sense, as used by ordinary religious people or others with less theological knowledge than most of the editors of this article - i.e. that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are somehow each to be identified with God, and yet distinct from one another (not necessarily using terminology like being, person, perichoresis, etc etc.) Although most of us here (I suspect) have at least some academic training in theology or biblical studies, that more vague sense is probably, a) what the average layman who wants to look up trinity on Wikipedia is going to think, and b) much more easily defendable from the Bible - e.g. most scholars (even someone like Dunn, who denies it everywhere else) would argue that the Fourth Gospel holds that Jesus and God are somehow identified and yet distinct, and I suspect many say the same of the Holy Spirit in there as well. That's what the average churchgoer is likely to think when it comes to the term 'trinity', so saying it's not in there according to any modern scholar isn't necessarily going to be properly communicative to everyone.
I'm not sure that what I've said above disagrees with anything you (Just nigel) have said, but I felt it was worth dropping in there anyway.TheologyJohn 20:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The mentioned sources are clear that The doctorine is not "explicitly taught in the New Testament". Please don't change it. The word *teaching* says it most clearly. Thanks --24.7.97.104 10:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to say, I don't know what your edit to that section were supposed to achieve. You replaced "The New Testament also does not use use the word "Τριάς" (Trinity), and it also does not explicitly state the fully developed trinitarian doctrine" with "The New Testament also does not use use the word "Τριάς" (Trinity), nor explicitly teach it." The former is much clearer in what it's referring to - "it" is referring to the word "Trinity", which can mean a number of things, as we've been discussing above, some of which mainstream scholarly opinion would believe is taught in the bible (e.g. that son and spirit are in some vague undefined sense divine and one with the Father). "Fully developed trinitarian doctrine" is a lot more precise, explains which meanings it contains and which it doesn't, and also the variety of ways in which the word trinity has been used in church history (e.g. in the early centuries, before the precise formulation of the present doctrine, it was around, but meant something substantially less precise than it does now.) My guess is that any source that you're quoting is using the term in a more precise sense than the average reader is likely to use. I do think it should be reverted (that particular edit, not the referencing change which occured in the same edit, and which seems helpful), but what does the community think?TheologyJohn 12:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, User:24.7.97.104. Using the word "Teaching" alone is not clear to me because it would need to say what is (not) being taught and take into account that different people feel 'taught' by different things. When in the Gospel of John, Jesus says to his disiples 'My father and I are one' and 'I will send you another advocate' I would actully say he was "teaching" and even teaching things that are very relevant to Trinitarian theology. But neither of these sentences alone articulate the full orthodoxy theology of the trinity.--Just nigel 01:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unacceptable, POV statement removed

I removed the following: "The Bible does not include a description of God that codifies the doctrine of the Trinity as articulated by mainstream churches today.[1] "

First, because it is POV. This article is about what Christians believe and many of us, scholars included, see the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. That position must be documented according to WP:NPOV. Second, encyclopedias are seen in the academic community as of lesser value than articles, dissertations and books. To argue as has been above that a person is not a top notch scholar because they have not written for one (does anyone know of an Encyclopedia article by Stephen Hawking? Albert Einstein? John Dominick Crossan?) or that simply because someone has written for one makes them the ultimate authority is just nonsense. Encyclopedias, even the best are the summary of a good researcher or sometimes a scholar.

Second, it is simply not needed.The paragraph as it now stands does a fairly good job of it. May I suggest we refine it? --CTSWyneken(talk) 18:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I like the statement as it stands now, and I certainly agree with your comments on Encyclopedias (all the more so, regarding Wikipedia). — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Multiplied titles, unhelpful

The opening paragraph uses parenthetical titles, to explain or elaborate upon "Father, Son and Holy Spirit":

Father (the Source, the Eternal Majesty, the Creator); the Son (the eternal Logos or Word incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth, the Saviour); and the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete or advocate, the Sanctifier)

This elaboration could go on indefinitely - there is no reason why these titles are better than the others which are not listed. The elaboration is not necessary - the article expands on the meaning of each. Therefore, I'm removing the parenthetical statements, except for "the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth)". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

That ceratinly makes a simpler first sentence. I am worried it implies that those three names for the persons: "Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" are part of the doctrine or dogma itself. Having reduced the number of names your comment that: "there is no reason why these titles are better than the others which are not listed" remains. Maybe we could address this in a specific sentence.--Just nigel 11:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that this needs to be addressed in the lead, though. The baptismal formula and the creeds, where believers encounter the doctrine repeatedly, all use the name, "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". The rest elaborates and clarifies. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I have included a reference and link in the section on etymology. Kind of cheeting I know, but no one has objected to it as too glaringly out of place.

[edit] Notes need fixing

Can someone who knows what they are doing better than me, please fix the notes of this article. Taa --Just nigel 10:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes on the Trinity in the Bible

Tom Yoder Neufeld, (Th. D. Harvard) Ephesians. Believers Church Bible Commentary. Waterloo, Ont. ; Scottdale, Penn. Herald Press, 2002.

"For through him we have access—both (hoi amphoteroi) in one Spirit—to the Father" (2:18). In this terse sentence, the whole Trinity is present—Son, Spirit, and Father (Barth, 1974:267). At this stage of Christian theological development, there is no fully developed notion of the Trinity, but the building blocks are present. --CTSWyneken(talk) 22:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] foundation in John

My reading of John is that the only foundation of the trinity found in it is the idtentity of Jesus as God, the identity of the Father and Son. When I changed the last line of the lead to specify that this was the foundation being referred to, the edit was reverted. Is there something in John that I missed, such as identifying the Holy Spirit as God or use of the trinitarian formula? If so, I'm eager to be educated. If not, then the lead should reflect which foundation we're talking about (Jesus = God). Jonathan Tweet 19:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If I'm thinking of the same edit as you're talking about, the change was reverted because the statement was far too over-simplistic. "Identity of the Father and the Son" is a gross misstatement of Trinitarian theology, and it's based on far more than John -- although of course John 1 is crucial. We cannot base this article on our own reading. That would be original research. It must instead be based on the readings actually employed. If you can find and cite a reputable source that places the foundation for the dogma as squarely in John as you say then we can include it, but this is probably a minority opinion and should not be in the intro unless it can be shown to be the generally accepted idea. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
There's already a ref for the sentence, but I don't trust that the sentence is a faithful summary of the referenced material. Can anyone actually look it up and quote the cite? Jonathan Tweet 01:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Similarities in the 16th-century Jewish Kabbalah" section

I have to wonder about the relevance of this section to the article. Is it likely that anyone reading this article would be interested in such a thing? It's also a bit vague and difficult to understand. It just doesn't seem to fit in the flow of the article at all. BenC7 02:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This section seems disjointed and/or out of place. If we are discussing similarities with other systems of belief, we could go on and on and on. Jacob 05:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Baptism as the beginning lesson" section

This whole paragraph:

Many Christians begin to learn about the Trinity through knowledge of Baptism. This is also a starting point for others in comprehending why the doctrine matters to so many Christians, even though the doctrine itself teaches that the being of God is beyond complete comprehension. The Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed are structured around profession of the Trinity, and are solemnly professed by converts to Christianity when they receive baptism, and in the Church's liturgy, particularly when celebrating the Eucharist. One or both of these creeds are often used as brief summations of Christian faith by mainstream denominations.

seems to be written from a Roman Catholic perspective and does not present an accurate worldwide view. I think it should be removed altogether. BenC7 03:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It has been removed. BenC7 00:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I won't oppose the removal of the paragraph, because the substance remains in the section. However, I wonder what you meant when you said it "does not present an accurate worldwide view"? The creeds are structured around this profession, and they were designed for this purpose, as the section goes on to say. They are also used this way in those Protestant denominations that still use them. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 05:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It assumes that Christians go through some sort of catechism or training program before they are baptized. They may do this in the RCC, but I don't know of any other church that does it. People in most churches are not required to have perfect theological knowledge before they are baptized. The person may be asked questions to see if they are sincere, but wouldn't be grilled on Do you believe that God is a trinity?? I certainly doubt that in most countries where Christians are persecuted that there would be such a formal 'indoctrination' (per se) before a person gets baptized. I would say most people come to a knowledge of the Trinity through their general growth as a Christian, not during a specific time. (Someone else removed the paragraph, BTW). BenC7 09:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You may be unaware that in most traditions, especially in countries where Christians are persecuted, catechetical instruction is emphasized for adults coming to baptism and for children coming to communion. Even where this is absent in non-confessional churches, a "credible profession of faith" is expected - usually something along the lines of "Do you accept Jesus as your personal savior? I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (or some comparable formula). While they may not actually use a traditional, written "canon" or "symbol", according to which a profession of Christian faith is deemed credible, these definitions are implicitly assumed even in such a minimal profession. This has nothing to do with "perfect theological knowledge", or being "grilled" on the completeness of understanding. It's simply a measure taken, in order to emphasize that the terms in which we are to live are the same as those into which we have been received into the fellowship of believers, by baptism. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "One God" Section

Finally, a statement that I can agree with...

the common conception which thinks of the Father and Christ as two separate beings is incorrect. The central and crucial affirmation of Christian faith is that there is one savior, God, and one salvation, manifest in Jesus Christ, to which there is access only because of the Holy Spirit. The God of the Old is still the same as the God of the New.

Of course, what is a "being"? Is it a conscious existence and life as the normal person would define it or something more mysterious and mystical? Maybe that's what I'm missing? Jacob 06:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It does seem to be a little ambiguously worded. They are separate in some sense. I can't think of anything better, except perhaps to say "two completely separate beings". BenC7 09:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Language like that is technical, for the purposes of making a theological statement - it is not "as the normal person would define it". The terms are borrowed from philosophy, but adapted for a different purpose. No one denies that it is awkward language, but it accurately expresses the doctrine.
The definition calls for the Father and the Son to be thought of as one being, not two; but two persons. Furthermore, the formula concerning the Son stipulates two "natures" in one person. This is not at all "normal" language - the Son is distinguished from the Father with respect to person, in whose one person is distinguished two natures "without admixture", so that his is not a separate being either "completely" or in any respect at all, according to the definition. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
What about "the common conception which thinks of the Father and Christ as two separate beings is incorrect, although they are two separate persons" or similar? BenC7 06:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Two "distinct" persons, rather than "separate", wouldn't conflict with the sources we've cited to explain the doctrine. How does that sound to you? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 07:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Fine by me. BenC7 08:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Or, "different persons" would seem to work, too. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I brought this up because it did not, it seemed to me, adequately express the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity cannot focus solely on the One God without making its necessary qualifying statements about distinct persons, as both of you have now done. This statement was modalistic in nature and uses classic modalistic terminology. Therefore it should be changed so that the Trinity can be truly represented with all its technicalities and necessary qualifications. Jacob 14:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "In Christianity..."

I think this phrase implies that the subject is fictional; like "In The Lord of the Rings..." or "In Greek mythology...". It should be changed to something like "According to Christianity..." or "Christians believe...". Anyone agree? Gert2 02:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree 100%, actually. The Trinity is no more or less fiction than Greek mythology, so it is as appropriate to use "In Christianity" as it is to use "In Greek mythology," as neither implies deference (nor any judgment whatsoever). Chasuk 12:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, Greek mythology was a bad example, that depends on your world-view. I still think it implies something, but i guess that's just my opinion. Other articles say similar things and it would be absurd to change them all. Nevermind, i guess. Gert2 21:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

On January 31, I removed this external link which was added by IP 141.238.33.58. I still do not feel that it meets WP:EL, but I have reposted it on the talk page so that the original editor can make his/her case for it, and the other editors of the page can respond. Thanks -- Pastordavid 18:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Pastordavid is mistaken. The policy says: "Links to blogs and personal webpages, except those written by a recognized authority." See here: http://trinities.org/blog/about/ - the author of the blog is an expert in a relevant area, namely, recent philosophical theology as relates to the Trinity. On his homepage, here: http://filosofer.googlepages.com/dt.html he lists four scholarly publications on that. Moreover, the blog provides discussion of otherwise hard-to-find (and hard to read) recent work: see http://trinities.org/blog/?s=Leftow&searchsubmit=Find and http://trinities.org/blog/archives/60 And sometimes, stuff that provides helpful analysis: http://trinities.org/blog/archives/8 Think about it - why are blogs normally excluded? Because they're journal-type writing - ephemeral, current event or private event driven. There is ephemeral content here - ex. polls, links to other blogs - but overall this particular blog site is more like a portal, a permanent repository of information, including the postings and the links, and suggested books, etc. Thus, I suggest the link be restored - it's a place many readers would want to go for more info. Ntxian 13:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I think there is a contradiction between what the article says and what W.Fulton in the "Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics"(1924) says:"The term 'Trinity' appears to have been first used by Tertullian, while the corresponding Greek term 'Triad' appears to have been first used by Theophilus the Christian apologist, an older contemporary of Tertullian." 136.152.147.250 02:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly what the article says, so what's the problem? It so happens the Greek word preceded Tertullian's use of the Latin word, which Fulton doesn't address one way or the other except that it's possibly implied in that Theophilus is identified as the older of the two. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Do You Speak For Most Christians?

Contrary to one persons POV NOT most christians are trinitarian. true most sects of the Catholic Church are Trinitarian but ask many of these members individually and you'll be surprised to learn that they do not believe that doctrine. many choose to actually believe Christ who said that his father is greater than he is (John 14:28) “. . .YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” rather than believe the nicene council which put Christ as an equal to God the Father. here a link is provided to the Catholic Encyclopedia Trinity Dogma page Kljenni 14:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
Klenji, as was indirectly discussed with you on the Talk:Christian page, and on the Talk:Christian cross, please do not attempt to rewrite Wikipedia to conform with JW doctrine. Justin Eiler 15:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, that dog won't hunt. Whether or not they grasp the philosophical intricacies, most people (All Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans worldwide, also the majority of Methodists, Presbyterians, and Reformed) confess either the apostles' or nicene creed every Sunday, which is an adhesion to Trinitarian doctrine. -- Pastordavid 15:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but have you ever been to an over-educated congregation to listen to the gaps in the recitation of those prayers? "Our [Divine Conceptualization with which we have no doctrinal problems] who [well, God's more of a 'what' for some people] art in 'heaven'"... That doesn't sound much like the mere recitation of a collection of words defines accepted doctrine within those congregations. Particularly not when people are transposing the underlying theology as they go. Besides, that's sort of the point, being forced to digest the text and figure out what they mean to us. The point isn't just nodding blithely and saying a bunch of words you never bother to think about. MerricMaker 21:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Most ordinary believers not completely understanding all of the esoteric philosophico-theological ramifications of the doctrine of the Trinity has always been true -- and is not confined to churches following "orthodox" Trinitarian doctines. AnonMoos 23:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

The opening paragraph of this section reads:

The earliest Christians were noted for their insistence on the existence of one true God, in contrast to the polytheism of the prevailing culture.

I'm no expert on theology, but isn't Judaism a montheistic religion?Rubisco 06:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Judaism was hardly the prevailing culture. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Once again excusing my ignorance :) What was the prevailing culture?Rubisco 07:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It was the early Roman Empire. At the time of the Crucifixion, Tiberius was the Emperor. The local culture in Palestine was heavily Hellenized as was most of the rest of the Mediterranean. The Koine Greek in which the New Testament was written was the language of commerce, and pretty much everyone not a Jew or a Christian was a polytheist. Even most of those who were formally monotheists were in fact henotheists of one form or another. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The most significant impacts of Hellenization in Palestine were in the spheres of law and politics, followed by the arts and philosophy. The degree to which personal religion in the area was influenced by Greco-Roman Polytheism is debatable.
What I'm really getting at is that the first paragraph I referenced seems to imply that the primary context in which Christianity developed was a polytheistic one, which it wasn't - it was monotheistic in the form of Judaism. This also implies that Christianity was unique in its montheism. I'm sure this section isn't intended to read this way, but it is somewhat misleading.Rubisco 09:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Christianity arose in a monotheistic context, yes, but it didn't remain there long and quickly spread to other centers. Only a few decades later, Jerusalem was destroyed by Trajan's legions, and Christianity subsequently developed almost exclusively surrounded by polytheism until the time of Constantine. So yes, its development was indeed primarily in a polytheistic culture.
Furthermore, while Judaea was significantly monotheistic, it was hardly exclusively so, and there were plenty of other peoples nearby and intermingled. It cannot be really thought of as so largely monotheistic as to have been uninfluenced by other ideas. TCC (talk) (contribs) 18:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Both sides needed for balance"

I disagree with this. Every Wikipedia article on any topic even mildly controversial, such as this one, turns into a debate transcript instead. It is sufficient to describe the doctrine as Trinitarians believe it, just as it is sufficient in Nontrinitarianism to describe the objections to the doctrine without examining the arguments in favor. I note that no one is particularly worried about "balance" over there. By this standard it's and extremely biased article; it only mentions Trinitrian ideas in order to argue against them. So why here?

There are only two ways to be completely fair about this. Either balance Nontrinitarianism in the same way by adding a pro-Trinitarianism section corresponding to the Nontrinitarianism section here, or to let each article stand on its own without the debate but prominently linking to the other. I vote for the latter as being inherently more like what one ought to find in a reference work.

And yes, this is only mildly controversial. The overwhelming majority of Christians are Trinitarian, and consider the issue to have been settled at 1 Constantinople in 381. Only a very small number of those who call themselves Christians do not. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. In my recent edit I removed all the "Nontrinitarian" external links at the bottom of the article. I was motivated to do so upon learning that this page actually had more external links to nontrinitarian sites than the Nontrinitarian article itself (as you can see in my edit summary; I usually make those summaries lengthy). Not to mention that this page also had mostly unique links that the nontrinitarian article didn't have. What's the deal?
I feel like it's some sort of last-minute shopping principal, intended to proselytize -- "Hmm, I'm all for the Trinity... oh, whats this? Nontrinitarian links? Well, I guess I'll click on them, just for fun..." *POOF* "Now I'm a Jehovah's Witness". Who else would make the majority of external links devoted to nontrinitarian ideas, if not by a nontrinitarian attempting to inject more of his/her arguments and beliefs into the article. There's a Nontrinitarian article for that purpose.--C.Logan 19:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This page needs to indicate that non-Trinitarian groups exist, and probably briefly summarize what a few of their principal objections are, but it doesn't have to "balance" discussion of non-Trinitarian views against Trinitarian views 50-50 (or anything close to 50-50). AnonMoos 22:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, as the Nontrinitarianism page itself has the purpose of elaborating. The summarization here is good enough, as I see it.--C.Logan 22:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom Ready site.

As per the discussion directly above (Both sides needed for balance), it seems to be generally agreed that all nontrinitarian links should be placed at Nontrinitarianism. As it seems clear, since the opposing viewpoint (which is dually a criticism of the Trinity as well as it's own belief system) has it's own page, than their is no need to leave any links regarding nontrinitarianism. I understand that one may argue that the opposing viewpoint needs mention, but if you hadn't noticed, it gets a considerable one on the Trinity page, and links to an entire new page of information. There is no need to fill the links section with any nontrinitarian sites, and it puzzles me that some people might think it necessary. There is already a site at which these (and any other nontrinitarian links you desire) can be placed.

However, despite the discussion above, and repeated edits of the page, there has been repeated re-adding of a particular site by a few unregistered users.

The site is www.kingdomready.org, although when added, the link is usually to a certain page within that URL. Either way, it is clearly a nontrinitarian site, which is apparent if you read their "statements of belief".

Okay. If you didn't notice, this site is already on the Nontrinitarianism page. Why do these editors feel the need to re-add it here, considering the logic of the above discussion?

It may be my bias speaking, but it seems that when there are repeated edits by unregistered users to add a site of the opposing viewpoint (as the first link, no less), it echoes the idea of underhanded proselytizing. I'm not a Muslim, but I don't feel the need to add a site critical of Muhammad on his Wiki page (as there is already a Criticism of Muhammad page), nor would any one allow such a thing.

If you see this site added to the external links, please remove it. Additionally, if you see any sites which are nontrinitarian in nature (although this may be hard to discern), refer to the Nontrinitarianism page, and if the link is not on that page, then add it to that page. --C.Logan 13:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Missquotes ==

Quote: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Father AND Son AND Holy Spirit. Three different and separate things. Like how we refer to apples AND oranges AND pears.

Quote: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."

Once again. And.

Quote: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The Comma Johanneum is a comma, or short clause, present in most translations of the First Epistle of John published from 1522 until the latter part of the nineteenth century. - Ironically also taken from Wikipedia. It's basically a single religion changing the bible for their own personal use. If you check your bible (That is one that isn't a Comma Johanneum) you'll find it will say something completely different.

Quote: "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

If anything this is proof that the trinity isn't real, Son of God - Last time I checked a son of anything is a different entity. Also the bible states that a son must be in subjection to his Father. Jesus even said "The Father is greater than I am". But with the Trinity all are equal.

This is also a perfect example of people using Jesus's quotes out of context.

Quote: "I and the Father are one."

When in actual fact if you read the rest of the story... "Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

Jesus was talking about the goal both him and his Father had, this goal being the same goal his disciples had. So if it is correct, are the disciples part of the trinity? I think not.


First and foremost, what it your purpose in arguing these points? Obviously, orthodox Christian groups use these and other verses to argue that it is nontrinitarians who are the ones taking things out of context. This page is about the Trinity, not about "Criticisms of the Trinity". I'm sure your help would be appreciated at the Nontrinitarianism article, where you can feel free to submit your ideas- assuming, that is, that they are not original research...
On a smaller point, be reminded that the 'And' excuse doesn't really hold up... For instance: past, present and future (as commas in lists are essentially equal to 'and') are termed as separate items, when the three are all one within the reality of time. Also, height, width and depth are three separate concepts which must operate as one within the reality of space. So... the 'and' argument isn't really exclusive of Trinitarian concepts.
In regard to the Comma Johanneum, it escapes me how this is included in your argument, considering that the church fathers who solidified the Trinitarian doctrine had never heard of such a verse in the Bible... my point being, Trinitarian doctrine came alive without the support of the Comma, so how does it work as an argument? The church fathers obviously found the Trinitarian view convincing even without the Comma.
As for your quotation of Luke 1:35 (please specify your verses, thanks), it seem that you have oddly taken a verse which is often used as support for the doctrine of the Trinity, and then you seem to claim that the verse is solid proof of the Trinity's non-existence... I understand your argument quite clearly, but to suppose that you have struck gold with that verse is a foolish assumption. Additionally, in regard to the Trinity and its equality/inequality that you bring up, please see this for one argument.
In regard to your final cited verse, you should take note that there is figurative usage in this verse: If you are Trinitarian, the reference to the disciples being one is an analogy to unity in the same way that the Trinity is unified, and if you are a Nontrinitarian, you would see "I and the Father are one" as the figurative statement.
My argument is based in this simple concept: the verses which you see as opposed to Trinitarian doctrine are, at the same time, seen by Trinitarians as being supportive of, or neutral, to the idea of the Trinity, with context considered in all cases. It's not that I personally feel these verses aren't problematic; it's that Trinitarians in general don't see these verses as truly problematic. Therefore, it is really pointless to bring your argument to this page, when you can obviously submit these verses as supporting evidence for Nontrinitarian views, where your contribution will be appreciated and will not be seen as Wiki-proselytizing argumentation. Thanks for your help!--C.Logan 08:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Father AND Son AND Holy Spirit. Three different and separate things. Like how we refer to apples AND oranges AND pears."

Why do we throw out basic English when it comes to interpreting certain scriptures? The subject of Mt. 28:19 is neither Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, but NAME. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all prepositional phrases that describe the singular noun "NAME". Finding out what Jesus was referring to when He spoke these words is as simple as looking into the book of Acts to find out how the Apostles baptized. Every case of Christian baptism in the New Testament was carried out in the singular NAME of Jesus Christ, the name of the Lord, etc. Never was it carried out in the titles Father, Son, Holy Ghost.
Why do Trinitarians never quote Luke or Mark's versions of the Great Commission but focus solely upon Matthew's version? Jacob 14:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links “Pro Trinity” and "Contra Trinity"

C. Logan,

Facts

  • With edit to the main article of 22:08, 19 March 2007, you immediately removed headings “Pro Trinity” and "Contra Trinity" added to the Section “External Links”, and links under the heading "Contra Trinity", added by SlaveOFchrist on the same day, with the following dismissive motivation:
"Please place such links at Nontrinitarianism" (C. Logan 22:08, 19 March 2007)
  • With edit to the main article of 12:57, 20 March 2007, you have removed the division of the Section “External Links” in two sub-sections “Pro Trinity” and "Contra Trinity", by Miguel_de_Servet (me) with the following motivation:
"Add those links to Nontrinitarianism, as per Talk reasoning" (C. Logan 12:57, 20 March 2007)

Comment

I have looked up in the Discussions for your supposed contributions (“as per Talk reasoning”) on “Nontrinitarianism”: there is nothing of yours relevant to the point, and/or specific, and certainly nothing after 19 March 2007.

The Trinity is, obviously, a very controversial subject, so much so that, within the body of the main article, there is an entire section (present section no.6) on “Nontrinitarianism” further subdivided in two sub-sections, “Criticisms of trinitarian doctrine” (6.1) and “Nontrinitarian groups” (6.2).

So, it is perfectly normal that a controversial subject as the Trinity, for which a section with subsections on antagonistic POVs has already been accommodated for in the main article, should also have the section “External Links” subdivided accordingly in “Pro” and “Con” subsections.

Another, altogether different issue, is the quality of the links, which can certainly be criticized and improved upon, with editing, NOT wholesale deletion.

Conclusion

I am therefore going to reintroduce the subsections and links that you have removed.

Warning

At your next attempt of removing a. m. subsections and links, I am going to resort to some form of “Dispute Resolution” WP:DR
Miguel de Servet 16:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Miguel de Servet,
The Islam Wikipedia page has a comparably-sized criticism section, yet offers no external links at the bottom of the page to support views which are critical of Islam. Those particular links will be found at the Criticism of Islam page. The same applies to the Christianity page.
If you feel that articles whose opposing viewpoints already have their own pages still need links to those viewpoints on the main article, please feel free to act links which are critical to Islam to the Islam page.
It is unnecessary to provide links for both views on a certain page when each respective view has its own page as it is. While I understand your good intentions, I have to disagree with you that the controversial nature of the Trinity (although it is accepted by the vast majority of Christians) warrants the inclusion of contra-links. Isn't the same true of Islam? Surely, I've seen an endless amount of Anti-Islam sites, and relatively few Anti-Trinity(Nontrinitarian) sites.
I stand by the fact that the use of contra-links on this page when there is a satisfactory Wiki article dealing with the opposing view is redundant, and could be viewed as underhanded proselytizing (as many unregistered editors like to insert tidbits into Wikipedia which support their religious views), which would not be tolerated on a page like Islam. Adding a link to Answering Islam (.org) would be followed by a swift deletion.
It equally makes little sense to add pro and contra links to Nontrinitarianism.
While it is generally a good idea to provide a short summary of the opposing view when a page already exists for it, it isn't necessary to follow suit with the external links.
Why is the subsection which summarizes the opposing view, and the 48kb article with all these same links insufficient, in your opinion? --C.Logan 17:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
C.Logan,
Why is it so important to remove the external links? They add to the information that a researcher can receive upon reading this article and do not take up additional space. Regardless of what the Islam article says, we are all working together to make the Trinitarian article as informative and concise as possible. Removing some external links accomplishes neither of these goals. The only goal that this would accomplish, it seems to me, would be to make it more difficult for researches to find good and balanced information regarding views on the Trinity. Despite popular opinion, this article should not be "and this is why the Trinity is correct" as some seem intent on having it, but rather an academic article about all aspects of the doctrine. And "all aspects" still includes contrary views (at least in the academic circles I have been involved with). Jacob 13:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I would totally agree with you if there wasn't already a Nontrinitarianism page. If both views were only contained within this one article, as they were originally (the Nontrinitarianism page didn't exist for around 2 years after this page was created, and the links in question have been a holdover from that time), then I would fully understand. However, now that the separate article has been created, This page should devote its time towards detailing history and general support for the doctrine, while the Nontrinitarianism article will detail dissent from the doctrine (and the reasons why) throughout history. I'm merely using the other articles which I had mentioned as an example: once enough information has been compiled so that an 'anti'-article can stand on its own, then the original article should not devote considerable time to criticism. If I'm reading the Islam article, and I see a small section with "See: Criticisms of Islam", I'm not going to be confused when I don't find anti-Islam links. Additionally, no one would allow such links to be added to the main page, for the same reason I am arguing against the inclusion of the links. If I were to add links such as "In defense of the Doctrine of the Trinity" and "20 Common Nontrinitarian errors" to the Nontrinitarianism page, my edit would undoubtedly be reverted, and most would assume I'm merely pushing my views on a page I disagree with. This is simply one of those edits which should have been completed when the Nontrinitarianism article reached a viable stage.--C.Logan 18:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I would furthermore add that a truly "balanced" article would not give undue weight to a really miniscule opinion among Christians. Yes, Muslims criticizes the Trinity as well (although not in particularly informed terms) but that's not really relevant to an article focused on Christianity, just as Christian criticisms about, say, the prophethood of Mohammed aren't really relevant to an article focused on Islam.
Within groups calling themselves "Christian", modern Nontrinitarians are so insignificant numerically that it's almost not worth mentioning them here at all. There were a number of historical groups that were highly important, especially with regard to development of the dogma, but they do not exist today. It's not truly "controversial". The vast majority of Christians consider the matter settled as of 381. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
TCC, as of 1995, according to the Global Statistics for All Religions by the World Christian Encyclopedia, non-Trinitarian Christian groups accounted for 35,304,900 adherents. These groups, especially the Pentecostal groups, have generally seen annual percentage increases in the double digits, so the numbers would be much higher today. This does not even include the many Messianic groups that are also non-Trinitarian. It is simply incorrect to call these numbers insignificant. To put it in perspective, this would have accounted for 14% of the total United States population in 1995. Hardly insignificant.
Also, there's still debate about the doctrine of the Trinity amongst Trinitarians. Many Trinitarians describe Modalistic Monarchianism better than I can when they describe their belief in the Trinity. It's just silly to pretend that the doctrine is non-controversial. Jacob 04:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
A little over 35,000,000 as opposed to 1.5 billion or so? No, in relative terms that's not significant at all. You could subtract the entire population of nontrinitarians from the Trinitarian numbers and not even notice the loss statistically.
There may well be confusion among Trinitarian Christians who have had inadequate religious educations, but a misunderstanding is not the same as debate. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Besides, I favored the reduced treatment of nontrinitarianism here for two reasons I haven't yet brought in to this particular conversation. First, to be truly balanced, Trinitarian objections to nontrinitarianism should take up as much space in that article as you want for nontrinitarianism here. That I have not seen an eager effort on the part of your co-religionists to make this adjustment in the name of "balance" tells me that you're really more interested in pushing your POV, whatever you may say. Second, to fully present both sides of an opinion in that way in an article tends to make it look more like a transcript of a debate than a reference. That makes for a poor quality article. I would no more support a lengthy treatment of Trinitarian objections to your doctrine in the nontrinitarianism article than I support the reverse. And that extends to the inclusion of a list of external links. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Your 1.5 billion is today's numbers. My number was based on 1995, which is over 11 years ago. Non-Trinitarians today make up between 3-5% of all Christians. Protestants make up only 18%. For reference, Asians make up less than 4% of the United States population but one would NEVER CONSIDER calling them insignificant. Calling these numbers insignificant is ignorant. Jacob 14:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The vast majority of Christians consider the matter settled as of 381.

– [TCC 20:59, 23 March 2007]

TCC,
if there was any need for evidence that those who argue against the opportunity of keeping the section "External Links" subdivided in “Pro Trinity” and "Contra Trinity", are NOT expressing an objective NPOV attitude, but a heavily doctrinal defence of the Dogma of the Trinity, you have (perhaps unwittingly ?) provided it.
--Miguel de Servet 15:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I believe he was rephrasing (and adding a historical perspective) to the statement above that "Non-Trinitarians today make up between 3-5% of all Christians." AnonMoos 17:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

AnonMoos,

are you seriously trying to argue that, as of 381 CE (interesting choice, BTW, as distinguished form 325 CE), the future of Christianity, including not only the dogma of the Trinity, but also of Sacraments, of Church discipline, of Predestination etc. was clearly and irreversibly chartered? What an appallingly uncritical, naive idea!
Miguel de Servet 18:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The trinity is controversial both within Christianity and within monotheism in general. The very fact that so many Christians stake this doctrine out as an absolute even when they're willing to question Church tradition and the Bible itself, that fact makes legitimate opposition to it all the more noteworthy. We have no business excluding other sides from the discussion. A nontrinitarian reader (Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddist, unitarian, Sikh, New Age, modalist, etc.) can reasonably wonder about the source of this singular doctrine and its incidence among Christians. If the claims of the nontrinitarians are rubbish, trust the informed reader to recognize such. Jonathan Tweet 20:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

What good points! I was merely pointing out the error of calling non-Trinitarians insignificant. I dare say that had it not been for the brutal persecution and execution of non-Trinitarians throughout church history, they would be much more significant today. The fact that there are still between 35 million to 70 million today is quite the testimony.
However, the doctrine was born in the contentious cradle of Nicea and continues to be contentious today. To say it was settled in 381 is a "head in the sand" philosophy. The truth that is hard for theological elitists to grasp is that the majority of Christians don't care... functionally they just believe in Jesus. All this Trinitarian theology is completely lost on them and utterly irrelevant to their life. When asked to describe who they will see in Heaven, the answer generally given is Jesus. Many studies have been done in the past decades over the declining doctrine of the Trinity. The prevalence on non-Trinitarian church leaders in the overall Christian world and in contemporary Christian music attests to this fact. Jacob 21:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The vast majority of Christians DON'T HAVE A CLUE what happened in 381.

– [Jacob]


Amazing. I'm not sure how this discussion shifted to it's current state... but this is far from the point at which we started. Not that it's a bad thing, but I don't see how any real ground is being gained in this discussion when it moves from the inclusion of redundant links (something I've not seen on any other article with a "Criticisms of..." page). Once again, I agree that criticism of the Trinity deserves considerable coverage... which it receives on the Nontrinitarianism page. It doesn't need redundant coverage in this article: the summary is sufficient, and anyone who is further interested in learning about Nontrinitarianism can click the 'See Also...' and can have access to a precious load of information which is in it's rightful place (including those lovely links). Once again, it's simple: Answering Islam doesn't belong on the Islam page when there's a Criticism of Islam page. The same idea applies here.--C.Logan 22:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
We got off topic when you and TCC decided to postulate about the insignificance of non-Trinitarian Christians. My post at 13:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC) was completely on topic. You then added your POV that non-Trinitarianism was a miniscule opinion, and then TCC decided to expanded on this with his incorrect POV regarding the insignificance of modern day non-Trinitarianism.
Getting back on topic, the question I have to ask is how do the external links hurt or take away from the article? The simple answer is they don't. But I am only lending my opinion to a discussion started between you and Miguel de Servet. Jacob 05:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
They take away from the article in the way that any irrelevant link would take away from the article. They would not be irrelevant if nontrinitarianism did not exist, but it does.
Your righteous indignation over my accurate assessment ("Postulate"? I don't think that word means what you think it means) of the relative numbers here allowed you do dodge the point very neatly, but you're going to have to answer it sometime if you want to be taken seriously. I.e. if these links are required here to "balance" the article, do you support the addition of an equal number of pro-Trinitarian links in the other article? You answer cannot be anything but "yes" if balance is really what you're after.
As I said, I'm just stating what you need to be arguing for to be consistent. Actually, I don't support adding "balancing" links to either. The articles themselves balance each other more than adequately -- or would theoretically, if each covered its respective subject with equal thoroughness. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
pos·tu·late -
1. to ask, demand, or claim.
2. to claim or assume the existence or truth of, esp. as a basis for reasoning or arguing.
3. to assume without proof, or as self-evident; take for granted.
4. something taken as self-evident or assumed without proof as a basis for reasoning.
I know exactly what postulate means, but you obviously do not. I'll try to use simpler words next time. Also, please show me where I stated the links were required to balance the article. It's not neccessary to put words in my mouth. My point is that these links are relevant and there is no need to remove them. I haven't discussed their necessity to balance anything. And yes, add as many pro-Trinity links in the anti-Trinity article as you'd like.
Trinity and anti-Trinity are two sides to the same coin, and to give my honest opinion, I think it's silly that there are even two articles in the first place. We are not talking about Islam, which is a world religion and deserves much discussion. We are merely talking about a single doctrine, cumbersome as it may be. You would never see separate articles on baptism and anti-baptism, but then again... baptism is not as controversial as the Trinity. Jacob 06:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but you provided the proof yourself. The complaints of such a small fraction of a population does not make for sufficient controversy to call this controversial.
I wonder how you can say that these subjects are so close that they must be treated in a single article. They're diametrically opposed. Nor is it cumbersome. It's difficult to understand, but then we're talking about a God we say explicitly is incomprehensible. It would be odd if there were nothing about him that was in the least bit unintuitive.
It seems to me that we don't see this kind of thing about baptism for two reasons. First is that groups who claim to be Christian but don't baptize at all are even rarer than nontrinitarians. Second is that those who can be described in this way are content to say that they don't baptize, state briefly why, and leave it at that. They don't try to turn articles on the subject into debating grounds. That the article itself was becoming little more than a debate transcript is why it was split in the first place. But you're not content with that -- you still want to push your POV here in any way you can.
"Balance", "same subject"... whatever. The point is that the same arguments for inclusion here work both ways. If the "non" links belong here, than the "pro" links belong there. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
OK then. Continue to strive to remove anything that goes against your POV and disparaging groups who do not agree with you. Jolly good job. It is people like you who have made this article sound more like a doctrinal tract than an academic article. Jacob 12:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The Nontrinitarianism article exists for the same reason as the Criticisms of Islam, Criticisms of Christianity, Criticism of Muhammad, Criticism of the Quran, Criticism of the Bible, and Criticism of Religion exist. When a particular section of an article can be vastly expanded to the point where it is taking up an extensive amount of space in the article, it is probably a good idea to move that section to its own article, and leave only a short summary at the parent page. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:Summary style:
"Summary style" is an excellent technique to give more structure to very long lists of references: for example the "World War II" summary style article portrayed above could have a reference list of sources that treat the history of World War II as a whole, while the sub-articles are provided with references that treat the specifics of each of these subtopics, e.g. books on World War II in the Pacific region are used as reference in the Pacific War article, etc...
There is no need to repeat all specific references for the subtopics in the main "Summary style" article: the "Summary style" article summarizes the content of each of the subtopics, without need to give detailed references for each of them in the main article: these detailed references can be found in the subarticles. The "Summary style" article only contains the main references that apply to that article as a whole.
External links relevant to the subtopic should go in the subtopic article and not the main article.
While I'm sure that you can argue about the relevance of these links in relation to this article, the links are far more relevant to the Nontrinitarianism article than they are to this article, which expresses the basic idea of the Trinity, not the counter-arguments to it (which have their due representation on their own article). Csernica is correct in that the article shouldn't read as a debate transcript. The summary on this page has given the Nontrinitarianism view all that it is due. If you want nontrinitarian links and references, please take a trip to the Nontrinitarianism page.
By the way, Jacob... at what point after your post did I argue for the 'insignificance' of nontrinitarian arguments? That has been Csernica's point of argument, citing Undue weight. I'm simply arguing that the sub-page should contain all the links and references relevant to its nature, while the main article should only provide a summary and a link to that sub-page. I don't think the nontrinitarian arguments are insignificant; that's not what I'm arguing about in the first place. Please note that I'm just following the Wikipedia guideline cited above.--C.Logan 15:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I understand your point and do not completely disagree. I am not the least bit offended by any of your comments since I recognize your intent. I see no great need to remove the links, but there is neither a great need not to remove them. If the goal is ease of research, I see arguments for both sides, but your Wikipedia post makes a good argument for moving them. (See what civil discussion gets you?)
To TCC, I would just say that the United States population makes up about 4% of the total world population (about the same as non-Trinitarians within Christianity). According to your logic, the United States is insignificant, which is foolish. The profound effect that non-Trinitarians have had on Christianity (both historically and currently) is without question. Jacob 16:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Peace at last... just kidding. I'm sure that as long as we keep the links mutually exclusive to their pages, all is fair. Thanks for the discussion, and for civility.--C.Logan 01:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I added an external link:

  • Trinity article in Jewish Encyclopedia

This link does not belong on the nontrinitarianism page because its topic is the trinity, not nontrinitarianism. Jonathan Tweet 03:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

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